70||0|0
0|0|Outrage as Oxford bans student for being Israeli |umcwb||01:18:55|06/29/2003|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fmain.jhtml%3Fxml%3D%2Fnews%2F2003%2F06%2F29%2Fnoxf29.xml%26sSheet%3D%2Fportal%2F2003%2F06%2F29%2Fixportal.html%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Prof Wilkie made the comments after Mr Duvshani%2C 26%2C wrote to him requesting the opportunity to work in Prof Wilkie%27s laboratory towards a PhD thesis. Mr Duvshani%2C who is in the last months of a master%27s degree in molecular biology%2C included a CV detailing his academic and outside experience%2C including his mandatory three-year national service in the Israeli army.%0D%0A%0D%0AIn a reply sent by email on June 23%2C Prof Wilkie wrote%3A %22Thank you for contacting me%2C but I don%27t think this would work. I have a huge problem with the way that the Israelis take the moral high ground from their appalling treatment in the Holocaust%2C and then inflict gross human rights abuses on the Palestinians because they %5Bthe Palestinians%5D wish to live in their own country.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22I am sure that you are perfectly nice at a personal level%2C but no way would I take on somebody who had served in the Israeli army. As you may be aware%2C I am not the only UK scientist with these views but I%27m sure you will find another lab if you look around.%22%22%0D%0A%0D%0A
1|1|Professor Wilkie Needs To Find Other Employment|The Magistrate||01:24:41|06/29/2003|%22What a ultra-maroon%21%22|0
3|2|Yep%2C brain-lock however you figure it.|bemildred||01:38:33|06/29/2003|Tsk.  Moral stands are so much more rewarding when there%0D%0Aare no personal consequences.|1
2|1|He%27s saying NO to the Israeli policies.....|DagmarK||01:28:31|06/29/2003|Just like the world should be saying NO to the USA.%27%0D%0A%0D%0AFirst baby steps.%0D%0A%0D%0AOh%2C I guess Wilkie is now an anti-semite racist........|0
4|2|Well%2C I don%27t know...|umcwb||01:41:02|06/29/2003|Is refusing to hire someone solely because of their nationality %22racist%22%3F |2
5|3|Fine print%3A The student served as an Israeli soldier.|J B||01:57:52|06/29/2003|Bet you didn%27t notice that..|4
9|4|I noticed...|umcwb||02:04:20|06/29/2003|that it is mandatory for all Israeli men to serve in the military.  Is denying someone a job for something that they have no choice on%2C because of his nationality%2C wrong%3F|5
7|3|Not necessarily...|Violet_Crumble||01:58:48|06/29/2003|My current employer doesn%27t employ anyone who isn%27t an Australian citizen. That%27s not racist. Refusing to take on a student because someone is participating in a political boycott%2C is in my opinion not fair at all to the individual student and it%27s not a good way of expressing someone%27s outrage at the actions of the Israeli govt%2C but it%27s not racism. On the other hand%2C the Israeli govt was recently in the process of passing a racist law that denied automatic citizenship to Palestinians who marry Israelis. Now%2C that%27s racist%2C but I doubt that right-wing rag you posted the article from was truly interested enough in exposing racism to have even mentioned that...%0D%0A%0D%0Abtw%2C further down in the article the professor apologised to the guy for his comments and Oxford was investigating the whole incident. For me personally%2C I don%27t support academic boycotts or the closing down of Palestinian universities by Israel...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...|4
16|4|It is racist...|Darranar||09:06:04|06/29/2003|to restrict someone specifically because of their nationality.  If your employer accepted citizens of any country except for Israel%2C that would be racist.|7
21|5|Okay%2C so my employer%27s racist%3F|Violet_Crumble||10:00:36|06/29/2003|It works the same way as restricting someone specifically because of their nationality when it comes to only one country. Except in my case%2C only people of one specific nation can be employed%2C and from all I%27ve worked out%2C it%27s not because of racism%2C but very solid and practical reasons. I suspect the same happens in the US and Britain though I%27m not too sure. My point is that if the restriction is based on political reasons and that restriction would lift if whatever bit of oppression etc wasn%27t being carried out by the govt of the person who%27s applying for the job%2C while I don%27t think it%27s fair to penalise an individual for the actions of his%2Fher govt%2C it%27s not racism...%0D%0A%0D%0AAlso%2C if it%27s racism to engage in an academic boycott%2C why isn%27t it racism to boycott goods and services from any particular nation%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...|16
22|6|Your employer is NOT racist...|Darranar||10:09:43|06/29/2003|because he would accept anyone of any nationality as long as they had Australian citizenship.  If they served in the IDF%2C it wouldn%27t matter as long as they had Australian citizenship.  Here%2C a professor is dismissing a student because he served in the IDF%2C on that basis and no other.|21
24|7|Something I forgot to mention...|Violet_Crumble||10:19:34|06/29/2003|%5Bi%5DHere%2C a professor is dismissing a student because he served in the IDF%2C on that basis and no other.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AWhen it comes to people serving in the IDF%2C I%27d personally have some trouble dealing with a non-Jewish person who%27d CHOSEN to serve in the Occupied Territories out of some misguided belief they were protecting Israel. But Israeli-Jews aren%27t given the choice whether to serve or not%2C and though there are some really brave refuseniks around%2C not everyone can travel that path even if they are opposed to the occupation%2C and I don%27t hold that against them. So%2C it%27d be wrong to refuse anyone employment solely because they served in the IDF. But from what I read that%27s not the sole reason this guy got the reaction he did. The professor pointed out very clearly that he was opposed to what Israel was doing in the Occupied Territories and he didn%27t think he could work with an Israeli. Of course this leaves him open to having to refuse Israeli-Arabs the chance to work with him%2C and if he did agree to work with one%2C then it%27s clear that his problem is with Israeli-Jews and not Israel in general...%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0AHope that made some sense...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...|22
26|8|It is simple|Darranar||10:28:59|06/29/2003|He is Jewish.  He is an Israeli.  Therefore%2C he served in the IDF.  Therefore%2C the professor refused him.  Had he not been an Israeli or a Jew%2C the professor would NOT have refused him%2C unless he had been a non-Jew Israeli who had served in the Occupied Territories.  That is blatant discrimination.%0D%0AI disgagree with you about serving in the Occupied Territories as well.  If you followed the IDF rules of engangement%2C as%2C unfortunately%2C many soldiers do not%2C and if you respected the Palestinians and only fired when the targets were firing upon you%2C I would have no problem working with them.  Many of the Israeli soldiers%2C conscripted or volunteered%2C do not fire once in all the years of their service at a living target.|24
67|9|Divestment from South Africa was %22blatant discrimination%22 as well.|TheStranger||17:13:01|07/01/2003|And it worked.  Get over it.|26
6|2|Right on%21|Jim Sagle||01:58:41|06/29/2003| |2
8|3|If you think he%27s an anti-semitic racist...|Violet_Crumble||01:59:59|06/29/2003|Then why don%27t you think all of us here who don%27t blindly support everything Israel does aren%27t the same%3F|6
10|4|Because it would be against DU standards to think that.|Jim Sagle||02:04:31|06/29/2003|%3A-%29 %0D%0A%0D%0AOK%2C serious answer%3A Because you all have not%2C AFAIK%2C advocated job discrimination based on nationality.|8
46|5|So%2C we are then%3F|kalian||13:42:31|06/30/2003|%3Ashrug%3A|10
11|1|that%27s bad%2C but|dfong63||02:23:40|06/29/2003|... is it any worse than the discrimination in Israel%27s immigration policy%3F  any Jew is welcomed with open arms%3B but other ethnic groups or nationalities%2C say%2C Palestinians%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aand then consider that Israel is basically an apartheid state.  although it is unjust that a Jew would be denied an opportunity based on his country of origin%2C it should also be recognized that he is simultaneously the recipient of many other privileges%2C advantages%2C and opportunities%2C by virtue of being a Jew in the Jewish state%3B and those privileges%2Fadvantages%2Fopportunities are unjustly denied to others who are not Jews.%0D%0A|0
12|2|I understand where you are coming from...|umcwb||02:26:23|06/29/2003|and you make some good points%2C but there is the old saying %28cliche%29%3A two wrongs don%27t make a right.  |11
13|3|true%2C two wrongs don%27t make a right%2C and yet|dfong63||04:02:11|06/29/2003|... if we strive with all our might to correct only the first wrong%2C while turning a blind eye to the second%2C doesn%27t that imbalance constitute still a third wrong%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aof these %22two wrongs%22%2C which wrong do you think is the greater%3A an act of individual bigotry such as the one you cited%2C or the institutional bigotry that Israel exhibits toward Palestinians%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DI understand where you are coming from%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Athank you for understanding.  since you do understand me%2C i wonder if you could answer this question for me.  do you think that%2C if Jews in this country were treated the way Palestinians are treated in Israel%2C their treatment would be considered to be %22anti-semitism%22%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A|12
14|4|Jews in this country are not considered enemies...|umcwb||04:15:16|06/29/2003|Do you think that it is wrong for a country to try to keep out people that it considers it%27s enemies%3F|13
35|5|but why%3F|dfong63||14:02:15|06/29/2003|%5Bi%5DJews in this country are not considered enemies... Do you think that it is wrong for a country to try to keep out people that it considers it%27s enemies%3F%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Ayour reasoning is circular.  if you treat someone as an enemy%2C he will probably become one.  if you mistreat someone%2C and begin to fear retaliation%2C does that make him an %22enemy%22%2C and therefore justify your mistreatment of him%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aand as far as you assertion that %22Jews in this country are not considered enemies%22%3A they would be%2C if we applied the same standards to them as Israel applies to the Palestinians.%0D%0A|14
17|2|Israel is designed to be a Jewish State...|Darranar||09:10:19|06/29/2003|a refuge from anti-semitism.  Jews have no other state where they are guaranteed to be allowed in.  Even the US has a long series of rules and regulations regarding citizenship and acceptance.%0D%0AA muslim%2C who would not get the same benifits of a Jew if he wanted to immigrate to Israel%2C would have a safe refuge in several Arab countries.  In other words%2C if he wanted to escape anti-Arab racism%2C a severe problem in the world%2C he already has a state-more tahn one-that he can flee to.  Israel%27s immigration laws I can accept%2C even support.  Many of its other laws favoring Jews I cannot accept nor support.|11
38|3|a double standard|dfong63||14:26:09|06/29/2003|%5Bi%5DJews have no other state where they are guaranteed to be allowed in. Even the US has a long series of rules and regulations regarding citizenship and acceptance.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0Awhy do you assume that Jews should possess this right%2C when most other groups don%27t%3F  no race%2C religious order%2C or ethnicity is guaranteed the ability to immigrate to the US.  and no country that i%27m aware of offers a blanket right to immigrate to all Buddhists%2C Catholics%2C or Hindus.  i%27m not aware of any country that offers a blanket right to immigrate to all Blacks%2C Hispanics%2C Whites%2C or Chinese people.  if there are such countries%2C they are the rare exception rather than the rule.%0D%0A%0D%0Aso where did this idea come from that Jews deserve a %22right%22 to a  guaranteed safe haven%2C that most other people don%27t have%3F%0D%0A%0D%0Aand if Jews have this safe haven%2C wherein they enjoy special privileges not granted to non-Jews%2C then how can they complain when they leave their safe haven%2C and are not granted the full privileges that other people enjoy%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A|17
41|4|There is an important difference...|Darranar||20:58:37|06/29/2003|Jews are more tahn a religion.  They are a people and a race.  Though they have intermarried%2C there are still traist much more common to Jews than others.  Both Blacks and Whites are too general terms to give them a state.  Select ethnic groups%2C however%2C taht have endured prejudice and mistreatment%2C deserve one.  The Kurds%2C for instance.  |38
44|5|Do blacks have a right to a black state|Classical_Liberal||12:34:59|06/30/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-03 AT 12:37 PM (ET)[/font][p] where minorities are not recongnized as full citizens%2F|41
47|6|There Are Any Number Of Them%2C Sir|The Magistrate||13:52:43|06/30/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-03 AT 01:54 PM (ET)[/font][p]That is the general case of Africa%3A the minorities being generally tribal or religious%2C but at times different strains of human%2C such as Pygmies or Bushmen.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe fallacy here is the conflation of Jews as a race%3A they are not one%2C at least in any contemporary meaning of the term. You must go back to 19th century conceptions%2C where it was common to speak of a %22Spanish race%22 or a %22Polish race%22 for the usage to make any sense at all.%0D%0A%0D%0AJews are an ethnicity%2C and a nationality%2C one of the consituent elements of which is a religiousity. They certainly have as much %22right%22 to a national state as any other such%3A more to the point%2C they have established one%2C and done so in the way all such have been established --- by force of arms.|44
48|7|Jews are  a race|Darranar||17:16:35|06/30/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-03 AT 05:17 PM (ET)[/font][p]in the sense that they have common traits.  They have intermarried%2C however%2C and that muddles up the pool a bit.|47
49|8|That Is True Of Most Nationalities%2C Sir|The Magistrate||17:31:14|06/30/2003|There are genetic markers within most any cohesive ethnicity. Jews are not%2C however%2C one of the several broad distinctions drawn among humankind that are refered to as races%2C dividing descent on a continental scale%3A even among those which break out several subgroups%2C such as the Khoisan and Pygmy in Africa%2C and distinguish among western Eurasians such sub-divisions as Celt and Semite%2C Jews simply are neither large enough in number nor superficially different enough from their neighbors to rank as a race.|48
51|9|Then do they deserve a separate nation%3F|NickDanger||23:50:18|06/30/2003|eom|49
57|10|Given The History Of The Matter%2C Sir|The Magistrate||07:12:24|07/01/2003|My answer would be yes.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe state of Israel has been established to ensure there is a state where state persecution of Jews is a practical impossibilty.|51
15|1|It is outrageous|tinnypriv||04:57:19|06/29/2003|I agree with Avi Shlaim on this point. There should be a boycott of Israeli goods%2C but not of academics%2C period.%0D%0A%0D%0APlus%2C it is idiotic%2C not just outrageous. It isn%27t going to make one iota of difference to the serious issues on the ground%2C and will only suceed in allowing %22Pro-Israel%22 apparachiks to smear people as anti-semetic %28like all smears%2C there is a grain of truth to it%29.|0
18|2|A boycott of Israeli goods%3F|Darranar||09:12:45|06/29/2003|That is unfair.  The Israeli merchants who sell internationally are not responsible for their government%27s actions.  You are hurting them for someone else%27s actions.  Is that fair%3F|15
19|3|Is it fair|tinnypriv||09:31:37|06/29/2003|That Israel can set up huge factories on stolen land in the occupied territories and then label the goods produced %22made in Israel%22%2C for sale in the EU%3F If they changed those labelling practices%2C then perhaps you%27d have a minor point. As it is%2C you don%27t.%0D%0A%0D%0AFurthermore%2C they are responsible. Just as I am responsible for the fact my government just committed aggression against Iraq. For instance%2C I would support an Arab world boycott of British products as a way of highlighting the illegal actions of my government and pressuring it into modifying policy.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe principle generalises - do you support US %22pressure%22 against Iran%3F If you do%2C is it fair that Iranian merchants have to suffer because of the actions of the Mullahs%3F Bear in mind that Iranians are even %5Bi%5Dless%5B%2Fi%5D responsible than Israelis for their government%27s actions since they don%27t live in a moderately responsive and democratic society.|18
20|4|No%2C I dislike sanctions of any kind...|Darranar||09:42:11|06/29/2003|because they almost always punish the people more than the government.%0D%0AAnyway%2C there are two sides to my anti-boycott stance%3A the practical side and the moral side.  The practical side is that the boycott does nothing to stop Sharon%27s policies.  The Israeli economy is already in the slumps%3B not so much from boycotts%2C however%2C but from the lack of tourism%2C a tremendous industry in Israel.  The Israelis are used to coping with boycotts%3B it%27s nothing new.  On the moral side%2C how do you know that the merchant you are boycotting agrees with Sharon%27s policies%3F  However responsible he is for his government%2C he could have voted an anti-occupation slate for as long as he could vote.  Woudl it be fair to you if you lost a lot of money because of your govenrment%27s actions in Iraq%3F  %28Since you post on Democratic Underground%2C I%27m assuming you disagree with those actions.%29  Is that fair to you%2C even though you probably voted against Bush%3F  |19
23|5|Two sides|tinnypriv||10:13:15|06/29/2003|Practical%3A a boycott is just one tactic%2C and can have useful effects when used properly. For example%2C 45%25 of Israel%27s trade is with the EU - a threat to employ trade sanctions could significantly affect GOI policy. They aren%27t a precise instrument %28as you say%29%2C so therefore you weigh carefully whether in some specific instance using one could be fruitful. In this case%2C I think so.%0D%0A%0D%0AMoral%3A there is no abstract %22fairness%22 to debate. If you %5Bi%5Ddon%27t%5B%2Fi%5D boycott %28in fact go even further to the other end of the scale and engage in massive trade and arms sales%29%2C is that %22fair%22 to the Palestinians%2C the occupation of whom you are facilitating%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AAs to your question%2C I%27ll ignore whether it is %22fair%22%2C because I don%27t think you can formulate it in that way. A better formulation%3A would I %2Aaccept%2A that the hostile policies of my government breed resentment and may result in my economy being affected%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AYes. And in fact%2C until I%27d succeeded in helping to change those policies%2C I%27d support a boycott generated from that resentment%2C assumed it had the same goal in mind. |20
25|6|So you agree with mass punishment for the Israelis%2C|Darranar||10:23:01|06/29/2003|in the form of a boycott%2C but not for the Palestinians%2C when they commit atrocities%3F|23
27|7|First|tinnypriv||10:38:18|06/29/2003|First you withdraw participation in the atrocities. I%27m pretty sure nobody is sending F16%27s to Palestine to bomb Tel Aviv%2C and the Palestinians aren%27t occupying Israel.%0D%0A%0D%0AAfter that%2C difficult tactical judgements arise. I%27ve already stated elsewhere that I think even the social funding of Hamas should be cut off. Also%2C I would support a Syrian boycott since they are engaged in a defacto occupation of Lebanon. Numerous other cases could be cited. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe only real question is the anticipated consequences of your own actions. In this case%2C an Israeli boycott %28which may bring to bear pressure for governmental sanctions%29 could have positive results%2C both for Palestinians in the short term %28if those sanctions are military%29%2C and also Israelis in the long term %28if it helps end the occupation%29.|25
28|8|Military sanctions...|Darranar||10:48:32|06/29/2003|are the only ones that will really work on Israel without overly punishing innocent merchants.  Those sanctions might have great short-term results%2C but they would result in further attempts to destroy Israel by the Arab governments.  Their acceptance of Israel is more of a forced tolerance%2C where they tolerate Israel because if they don%27t and try to destroy it tehy will lose another war.|27
65|8|No need for F16s|Gimel||15:43:33|07/01/2003|The Palestinians succeeded in bombing Tel Aviv withough F16s.  Thos few occasions when very limited use ws made of F16 cover or missile attack%2C were without casualties on the Palestinian side.%0D%0A%0D%0ASo you advocate a boycott to protest Israeli use of F16s.  Or maybe Israeli possession of F16%2C which is great for squawking about.   |27
45|3|So you are saying no boycott is justified |Classical_Liberal||12:36:41|06/30/2003|ever in history.  The german merchants weren%27t all responsible for the nazis.|18
50|4|A boycott of all of a nation%27s goods...|Darranar||18:31:56|06/30/2003|is immpossible to justify.  A more limited boycott of goods produced by companies supportive of the gvoernment%27s policies would eb acceptable.|45
52|3|They ARE responsible|BeHereNow||02:09:08|07/01/2003|just as we are responsible for our government%27s actions.%0D%0ATHAT is the basis for terrorism.%0D%0ASuicide bombers%2C as in 9-11 or a market in Israel are %0D%0Aa form of protest against the civilians who permit their governments%0D%0Ato carry out atrocities in their name.%0D%0ANot saying it is right- but to ignore the connection is to %0D%0Adeny the responsibility.%0D%0ASomething Americans and Israelis unfortunately have in common.%0D%0A%0D%0A|18
68|4|Yes%2C we are responsible...|Darranar||17:42:48|07/01/2003|The entity of the people as a whole are responsible for a democracy%27s actions.  Every individual person%2C however%2C is not responsible for everything the government as done%2C in the same way that not every Palestinian is responsible for the suicide bombings. |52
29|1|Would anyone object|Resistance||11:04:37|06/29/2003|Had the story been one of a professor denying work to someone who had been part of Hitler%27s army%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AOk I know I can hear half of you now ready to scream %27You%27re comparing Israel to Nazis%21  That%27s against the rules%21%27 and you%27re ready to hit alert on my post and get it removed%2C but wait - that%27s not my point to compare.  What I %5Bi%5Dam%5B%2Fi%5D saying is that maybe there %5Bi%5Dis%5B%2Fi%5D a point at which this kind of denial of work is tolerable.  So you can%27t argue against the tactic itself if you would accept it%27s application in any particular circumstance.%0D%0A%0D%0ANow if you can go along with that argument%2C then the real question to be asking is%3A  Is the situation in Israel one that makes this particular treatment of those who served in its army acceptable%3F|0
30|2|The Nazis|Darranar||11:26:55|06/29/2003|practiced conscription%3A a lot of it.  Perhaps if the soldier had been part of the SS%2C I%27d object%2C but if he had been conscripted I would not.  Also%2C even those soldiers who volunteered were under immense pressure and wouldn%27t have volunteered had they known more.  Most of those soldiers greatly regretted their decisions.|29
31|2|To Answer Your Last Question First%2C Sir|The Magistrate||11:38:19|06/29/2003|No%2C there is nothing in the situation at hand that makes this action acceptable%3A the professor is simply a tin-pot pop leftie dreaming of engagement from within his cocoon.%0D%0A%0D%0ATo engage your larger point%3A general principles have never seemed of much use to me in life%3B only particular cases can be profitably engaged. It is%2C for example%2C foolish to oppose use of force in principle%3A it may be appropriate in some circumstances%2C innapropriate in others%2C and it may partake of these qualities for a variety of reasons.|29
32|1|2c|bemildred||12:32:22|06/29/2003|The professor can and should reject any applicant that he feels%0D%0Ahe cannot do right by%2C for any reason at all%2C including his own%0D%0Aemotional weakenesses%2C prejudices and bigotry.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf he is a nice fellow%2C he should help the student get another%0D%0Aposition%2C if the student is qualified and he feels that he%0D%0Acannot accept him.%0D%0A%0D%0AHe should NEVER discuss his reasons.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe students provenance is not a %22good%22 reason for such an%0D%0Aaction%2C although professors commonly make these decisions based%0D%0Aon %22comfort level%22 among other things.%0D%0A%0D%0AThis professor is a moron because he violated the third and %0D%0Afourth paragraphs.  He is not a nice fellow because he violated %0D%0Athe second.  This sentence is particularly priggish%3A%0D%0A%0D%0A%22As you may be aware%2C I am not the only UK scientist with these%0D%0Aviews but I%27m sure you will find another lab if you look around.%22%0D%0A%0D%0A|0
33|1|I disagree with the basic premise that this prof...|mike_c||12:36:48|06/29/2003|...did not have the right to refuse admission to anyone on any basis.  There are lots of elements that contribute to a successful relationship between grad students and their professors%2C and speaking from my own experience%2C the academic standards are just the baseline entrance requirements.  I%27ve turned down my share of graduate candidates on the basis that it did not appear we%27d get along or work well together.  No way I%27d accept a current or former DEA officer without some SERIOUS prior discussion%2C for example....|0
34|1|also%2C the subject line of the original thread is incorrect%2C or at least...|mike_c||13:50:50|06/29/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-03 AT 01:52 PM (ET)[/font][p]...misleading.  Oxford did not ban the student in question.  In the first place%2C if there was ever any possibility of him working with Prof. Wilkie it was only because he had already been ACCEPTED under Oxford%27s rules for graduate admission.  In the second place%2C even if he had been denied admission%2C which does not seem to be the case%2C such denial is certainly not %22banning.%22  Oxford seems not to have taken any position on the matters that ultimately led to Prof. Wilkie%27s decision to not accept Mr. Duvshani into his lab%2C at least prior to his exchange of letters with Prof. Wilkie.%0D%0A%0D%0AOnce more for clarity%3A Oxford did not ban Mr. Duvshani.  Prof. Wilkie chose not to work with him%2C for reasons that are well within his perogative as director of his own research lab%2C whether you or I agree with them or not.|0
36|1|A couple points|Muddleoftheroad||14:11:51|06/29/2003|%2A The professor is a bigot%2Fracist scumbag.%0D%0A%2A The prof should lose his job and learn all about what it means to ask others for career help.%0D%0A%2A This should remind all those one-state solution folks WHY Israel needs to exist as an inherently Jewish state. Jews%2C it seems%2C can%27t guarantee a fair break anywhere but Israel.|0
54|2|Well said%2C Muddle...|Andromeda||04:14:57|07/01/2003|%3Atoast%3A|36
37|1|What the fight is really about|legin||14:13:37|06/29/2003|Let us be honest this type of %27discrimination%27 is perfectly acceptable%2C during the cold war if any Soviet 18 year old%27s had wanted to study advanced nuclear weapon making at a u.s. college it would be pretty safe to assume that they would not be allowed to do so. It would be a fair guess that right now there are people in the governments of the Western countries going through the applications of students from Muslim nations to see whether we need them or not.%0D%0A%0D%0AThe world is divided up into %27us%27 people and %27them%27 people. Discrimination is unacceptable amongst the different members of the %27us%27 group%2C but perfectly permissable when directed towards someone from the %27them%27 group.%0D%0A%0D%0AWhat the fight is really about is not discrimination%2C it is about israel being demoted from the %27us%27 group into the %27them%27 group.|0
39|2|The question I would ask also|legin||14:35:40|06/29/2003|It is completly obvious that as far as israel is concerned Europeans are %27them%27 people. Sharon has made it perfectly plain that he wants absolutly no %27interference%27 from the Europeans in the I%2FP peace process. There are organisations going around the various countries drawing up reports of how anti-Semetic they are depending on how much co-operation they give to bush%2A%2C we are told in most condescending and patronising terms%2C by senior israel and u.s. politicians %22well you do have a few problems over there concerning racism%22%2C and of course israel has just joined new labour in breaking off diplomatic relations with the BBC.%0D%0A%0D%0AIs it fair to treat Europeans as %27them%27 people but expect that israel is treated as %27us%27 people by the Europeans.|37
40|2|Give me a break...|Darranar||14:51:46|06/29/2003|They wouldn%27t be allowed to access nuclear secrets because they could pose a threat to the US.  The subject here is not threatening to anybody.|37
43|2|Anyone who sees Israelis as %22them%22 %28the enemy%29 is  a POS. |Jim Sagle||11:29:39|06/30/2003|End of story.|37
55|3|Then the same goes for anyone who sees Palestinians as the enemy...|Violet_Crumble||04:29:04|07/01/2003|Unless we%27re now going to start clinging to the conservative view that people ain%27t nuthin%27 but shit unless they%27re from a Western nation or one of its close allies...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...|43
42|1|Oxford professor apologizes |Gimel||07:05:58|06/30/2003|%5Bb%5DOxford professor apologizes for discrimination against Israeli applicant%5B%2Fb%5D%0D%0AOxford University pathology professor Andrew Wilkie apologized over the weekend for refusing an application by an Israeli student earlier this month because of his nationality%2C after the university announced it was launching an inquiry. %0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.jpost.com%2Fservlet%2FSatellite%3Fpagename%3DJPost%2FA%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull%26cid%3D1056943843252%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|0
53|2|Denied personal integrity|BeHereNow||02:18:42|07/01/2003|like all the educators in our politically based %0D%0Aeducation system.%0D%0AThe man felt a moral responsibility as an educator to %0D%0Auphold his integrity.%0D%0AHe chose not to accept a person associated with %0D%0Agenocide and human rights violations in his program.%0D%0AI applaud his character.%0D%0AI am dismayed that the politics of education have%0D%0Aforced him to back down.%0D%0A%0D%0ABTW- I am not anti-semetic%21%0D%0AI strongly oppose the tactics employed by the IDF%2C%0D%0Aand can not help but notice the similarities in our%0D%0Aown soldiers behavior in Iraq.%0D%0AWrong is wrong%2C and the fact that some wrong doers%0D%0Aare Jewish is IRRELEVANT to me.%0D%0AI am in favor of any one who has the courage to %0D%0Aact according to his personal code of moral character.%0D%0AESPECIALLY in education.%0D%0AHad I been in his shoes%2C I would have made the same decision%0D%0Ain denying the former IDF soldier access to my program.%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0ABHN%0D%0A|42
56|3|You make a very good point in there...|Violet_Crumble||04:32:45|07/01/2003|%5Bi%5DI strongly oppose the tactics employed by the IDF%2C%0D%0Aand can not help but notice the similarities in our%0D%0Aown soldiers behavior in Iraq.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThe way I see it is that it%27s impossible for anyone who opposed the invasion of Iraq and the behaviour of US troops there to turn around and support the actions of the IDF. If someone who falls into this category %28and there%27s quite a few of them here%2C I assume%29 wants to try explaining how it is possible%2C I%27m all ears...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...%0D%0A|53
66|4|THANK YOU%21|BeHereNow||16:37:28|07/01/2003|Oh the irony.%0D%0AOh the hypocrisy.%0D%0A%0D%0AIf I were approached by a gun slinging%2C civilian killing American soldier%0D%0Awho thought killing %22brown people%22 was a good thing- I would give him%0D%0Athe same reply-%0D%0AIsraelis who take the %22high moral ground%22 are no different to me%0D%0Athan American soldiers who shoot Iraqi civilians for the BFEE.%0D%0AIDF%3DBFEE soldiers who actually think what they are doing is justified.%0D%0AI would not want either in my space%2C especially the space of education%0D%0Awhich is founded in the belief of improving the world%2C not adding to it%27s%0D%0Amisery or sorrow.%0D%0AAND as a patriot%2C I would rather give the position to a poverty stricken%0D%0AAMERICAN student who was trying to AVOID military service and %0D%0Aachieve higher education without enlisting in the war against the planet.%0D%0AThere are plenty of those around these days%2C unfortunately.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22In a reply sent by email on June 23%2C Prof Wilkie wrote%3A %22Thank you for contacting me%2C but I don%27t think this would work.%0D%0AI have a huge problem with the way that the Israelis take the moral high ground from their appalling treatment in%0D%0Athe Holocaust%2C and then inflict gross human rights abuses on the Palestinians because they wish to live in their own%0D%0Acountry.%22%0D%0A|56
69|5|A soldier...|Darranar||19:42:56|07/01/2003|in the IDF is not responsible for atrocities committed by other soldiers in the IDF%2C in the same way that Palestinians are not all responsible for the actions of suicide bombers.  There is no indication that this Israeli is a %22gun-slinging%2C civilian-killing%22 soldier.  To say that he is because he served in the IDF is plain prejudiced. |66
58|3|Then he will...|Gimel||08:51:39|07/01/2003|...have to reject every US applicant as well%2C and may as well reject his own%2C because Britan has it%27s share of human rights violations also.%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He chose not to accept a person associated with %0D%0Agenocide and human rights violations in his program.%22%0D%0A%0D%0AIt%27s all in the mental associations%2C the BBC chooses to discriminate against Israel%2C as do many other media outlets.  There has been a smear campaign against Israel%2C and many have fallen for it.%0D%0A|53
59|4|That raises a question...|Violet_Crumble||09:01:02|07/01/2003|%5Bi%5Dhave to reject every US applicant as well%2C and may as well reject his own%2C because Britan has it%27s share of human rights violations also.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0ADoes that mean yr admitting that Israel does commit human rights violations%3F%0D%0A%0D%0A%5Bi%5DIt%27s all in the mental associations%2C the BBC chooses to discriminate against Israel%2C as do many other media outlets. There has been a smear campaign against Israel%2C and many have fallen for it.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AYes. We should all stick with yr moderate to liberal-leaning Jerusalem Post for objective reporting%21%21 %3B%29 The problem is that for way too many folk any objective reporting that does shed light on some of the naughtier things Israel is doing in the Occupied Territories gets attacked as being a smear on Israel%2C and to me that%27s no different than the conservatives with their crap about any criticism of the US in the media being a smear on the US...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A|58
61|5|I have said|Gimel||09:39:27|07/01/2003|...that in the past%2C and I say it again.  War is a human rights violation%2C and Israel has to defend herself from attack.  Human rights violations do occur%2C and every attack hurts someone.  That%27s on both sides of the conflict.  %0D%0A%0D%0AYou have repeatedly stated that I think Israel is above criticism.  That is not my view.  However%2C there are limits to what one can take.  Even Israelis should defend their citizens from hostile forces%2C even if they are suffering also.  It is such a shame%2C a human tragedy.  That should be recognized. %0D%0A%0D%0AThe international efforts to bring the violence to a halt were rejected until now%2C by the Palestinian militant leaders%2C including Arafat.|59
62|6|Where the limit is...|Violet_Crumble||10:10:17|07/01/2003|%5Bi%5DHowever%2C there are limits to what one can take. Even Israelis should defend their citizens from hostile forces%2C even if they are suffering also.%5B%2Fi%5D%0D%0A%0D%0AThose limits should be exactly the same as that for other nations. Where we do agree is that conflict always results in human rights violations%2C but where we differ is how far any defence should go. A lot of what%27s claimed as defence %28and this applies to other nations and not just Israel%29 is in fact not defence at all%2C but aggression...%0D%0A%0D%0AViolet...|61
63|7|Often the two...|Gimel||10:41:11|07/01/2003|are indistinguishable.  Therefore%2C you have to look at the circumstances.  Looking at numbers of casualties doesn%27t tell the whole story%2C and sometimes the casualties numbers are engineered as a tool of propaganda.  %0D%0A%0D%0AIf Israel have taken up the exact mode of warfare that Palestinian militant groups used%2C there would have been a much greater bloodbath. |62
60|3|Wrong|Muddleoftheroad||09:15:32|07/01/2003|The only reason this student was associated with genocide is that he is Jewish -- and that means he is only associated with the receiving end of the genocide term. There is no genocide against the Palestinian people. To claim so is a blatant falsehood.%0D%0A%0D%0ATake a look at population stats for the Palestinian people. They are going up%2C not down.%0D%0A%0D%0AFortunately%2C this dirtbag professor got the Riot Act read to him and he backed down. I guess the prospect of losing the cushy job kept his principles in line.|53
64|4|Not neglecting%2C%2C%2C|Gimel||12:16:50|07/01/2003|[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-03 AT 12:17 PM (ET)[/font][p]the obvious%2C the part about %22genocide%22 you%27ve struck at the heart of the matter.  Good for you%21 %0D%0A%0D%0AI don%27t know if beng %22Jewish%22 would have been enough in this case%2C but then an Arab Israeli would probably not faced the same problem.%0D%0A%0D%0AEdited to correct one letter.|60
70|3|He never had any integrity to begin with.|Jim Sagle||02:35:55|07/03/2003|A fact that shouldn%27t be hard to grasp. |53