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CNN BREAKING: Bus Explosion near Haifa in Israel

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Dabeddow Donating Member (1727 posts) Click to EMail Dabeddow Click to send private message to Dabeddow Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:33 AM (ET)
CNN BREAKING: Bus Explosion near Haifa in Israel
no link yet

Don't Blame Me! I Voted With The MAJORITY!

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 20 wounded n/t jem note Apr-10-02 1
   One more post to a thousand Jem Onemore 04/10/2002 6
   What did we really expect??? cameron22 04/10/2002 77
 It is a commuter bus.... Cappurr Apr-10-02 2
 And so it goes mzpip Apr-10-02 3
   with tons of pain, destruction and carnage in every direction salin 04/10/2002 5
 So much for the pause Ontological Phrenologist Apr-10-02 4
 Many dead; bus destroyed; cars in ditches. jem note Apr-10-02 7
 YAHOO LINK. "Several were killed." Karmadillo Apr-10-02 8
   That's a DU link, isn't it? Onemore 04/10/2002 10
       Link fixed. Thanks. n/t Karmadillo 04/10/2002 13
 This is sad nsaixphnutex Apr-10-02 9
   Well, it is sure WatchWhatISay 04/10/2002 17
   imagine... instantkarma 04/10/2002 55
 MSNBC reporting 10 dead. Will this madness ever end? NNN0LHI Apr-10-02 11
   Did you see the bus??? Cappurr 04/10/2002 12
       I saw it and it looked like it was cracked in half like an egg. NNN0LHI 04/10/2002 15
       Tragic proud patriot 04/10/2002 16
           Why can't the world get smart and...... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 56
               Peacekeepers DoveTurnedHawk 04/10/2002 100
 So what exactly has the Israeli attack done again? Devils Advocate NZ Apr-10-02 14
   Confiscated many weapons; shut down numerous bomb making labs; jem note 04/10/2002 18
       Unfortunately, Jem Onemore 04/10/2002 19
       It's a waste of time arguing that the attacks have been succesful Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 21
           True. jem note 04/10/2002 26
               No they haven't Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 31
                   Neither the time nor the place. jem note 04/10/2002 33
                       So now history DOES matter? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 38
                           Israel has no right to exist? jem note 04/10/2002 40
                               Actually, I believe they do have a right to exist Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 42
                                   Great. jem note 04/10/2002 46
                                       A partial concession Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 50
                                       Not just UN resolutions sangha 04/10/2002 71
                               Jem Note..... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 58
                                   Democracies? jem note 04/10/2002 60
                                       Just because you don't think they are doesn't make it a fact.... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 61
                                           It's not just me. jem note 04/10/2002 69
                                               What about the Israeli Arabs? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 90
                                                   You're getting your terms mixed up. jem note 04/10/2002 92
                                                       Not at all. Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 103
                                                           The points have already been refuted. jem note 04/10/2002 105
                                                               No they haven't Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 109
                                                                   They have. jem note 04/10/2002 114
                                                                       Oh what a lame excuse! (PS They haven't) Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 116
                                                                           They have. jem note 04/10/2002 117
                                                                               They haven't (see I can play the loop tape too) Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 122
                                                                                   If you want to believe Egypt is a real democracy, fine. jem note 04/10/2002 125
                                                                                       So now we are talking about REAL democracies? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 132
                                       No more or less so than Israel Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 89
                                           Please. jem note 04/10/2002 93
                                               Not me... Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 104
                                                   The Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist? jem note 04/10/2002 106
                                                       Yes they have. Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 110
                                                           No, they haven't. jem note 04/10/2002 112
                                                               Yes they have! Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 118
                                                                   They haven't. jem note 04/10/2002 119
                                                                       They have (loop tape part ....) Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 127
                                                                           They haven't: they voted to change the charter, but they never did. jem note 04/10/2002 129
                                                                               Damn! How can you keep this up? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 133
                                                                                   I really think you are deliberately saying silly things. jem note 04/10/2002 135
                                                                                       Ok, if you insist, let's analyse the words then Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 140
                                                                                           You fooled me. I realy did think you were being serious. jem note 04/10/2002 141
                                                                                               I was, and you a fooling yourself. Devils Advocate NZ 04/11/2002 145
                                                                                                   I do not believe you subscribe to the logic and positions you argue. jem note 04/11/2002 146
                                                                                                       You don't believe anything that is not official Israeli spin Devils Advocate NZ 04/11/2002 150
                                                                                   I haven't seen links or substantiatory evidence from.... tonylove2002 04/11/2002 149
                                                                           DA_NZ.... tonylove2002 04/11/2002 148
                                   Algeria is not a democracy at all cap 04/10/2002 63
                                       My mistake on that one... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 65
                       Here he goes again... ad_jameson 04/10/2002 88
                           Please. jem note 04/10/2002 94
                               See above ad_jameson 04/11/2002 152
               jem note.... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 57
   Do your best kamtsa 04/10/2002 20
       No it's not Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 25
           Please. jem note 04/10/2002 27
               Do you accuse the Israeli Supreme Court of being Palestinian propagand... Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 32
                   No. jem note 04/10/2002 34
                       Yes Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 39
                           No. jem note 04/10/2002 41
                               Yes Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 44
                                   No. jem note 04/10/2002 47
                                       Agreed. Cappurr 04/10/2002 48
                                       Wrong!!!!!!! Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 51
                                   DA_NZ tonylove2002 04/10/2002 64
                               Do you have proof... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 62
               if the US were funding emmy 04/10/2002 73
                   Temporary? Holding by the balls? jem note 04/10/2002 74
                       so now you are saying emmy 04/10/2002 80
                           Not what I'm saying. jem note 04/10/2002 83
                               then why not emmy 04/10/2002 86
                                   Why not? jem note 04/10/2002 87
                                       A faulty argument Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 95
                                           Not a faulty argument. jem note 04/10/2002 98
                                               Yes it is.. Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 108
                                                   Your misinterpreting again. jem note 04/10/2002 115
                                                       What inferences? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 121
                                                           Your inferences. jem note 04/10/2002 123
                                                               What about your inferences? Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 131
                                                                   You're twisting my words again. jem note 04/10/2002 134
                                                                       Not at all. You're doing enough twisting all by yourself Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 142
                                                                           I do not believe you subscribe to the logic and positions you argue. jem note 04/11/2002 147
                                                                               You don't believe anything that is not official Israeli spin Devils Advocate NZ 04/11/2002 151
                                       sorry Jem- emmy 04/10/2002 97
                                           Sorry? jem note 04/10/2002 99
                                               tunnel vision emmy 04/10/2002 102
                                               Look, continually re-stating a lie does not make it true! Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 111
                                                   Indeed. jem note 04/10/2002 113
                                                       Yes, indeed Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 120
                                                           Again. jem note 04/10/2002 124
                                                               Yes, again... (aren't you getting tired of being proved wrong?) Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 136
                                                                   Now you are saying silly things that I cannot believe you actuall supp... jem note 04/10/2002 138
                                                                       Not silly at all. Devils Advocate NZ 04/11/2002 143
                                                           Thank you Devil's Advocate! Thrive 04/10/2002 128
                                                               Nobody wins with this kind of prolific egomania... ad_jameson 04/11/2002 153
                                               Why do keep claiming that Palestine never existed? ad_jameson 04/11/2002 154
                       Here is an idea... Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 91
                           An idea. jem note 04/10/2002 96
           give back the Maoris land agorelik 04/10/2002 49
               Yes I'd love that, Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 52
                   I love it when that happens. Spentastic 04/10/2002 53
                       Yes Devils Advocate NZ 04/10/2002 54
                           I hear strange silence!!!!!!! tonylove2002 04/10/2002 67
                   Whoooohoooooo tonylove2002 04/10/2002 66
                   I just read that again.... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 68
                   Devils Advocate NZ PsychoDad 04/10/2002 72
                   That's Why.... Kafka Karma 04/10/2002 76
                       Kafka wasn't German. jem note 04/10/2002 79
                           Thanks Jem Kafka Karma 04/10/2002 81
                               He wrote in German. jem note 04/10/2002 84
                           More info Jem (born in Prague died in Austria) Kafka Karma 04/10/2002 85
       Kamtsa... tonylove2002 04/10/2002 59
 Big question Onemore Apr-10-02 22
   No Onemore.... Cappurr 04/10/2002 23
       How untrue - Sharon won't be dead! n/t nsaixphnutex 04/10/2002 24
   Not Arafat Aidoneus 04/10/2002 28
       I was thinking the same thing... Cappurr 04/10/2002 30
           It was Hamas Enjolras 04/10/2002 43
               I think you misread the CNN report.... Cappurr 04/10/2002 45
 WTF... WillyT Apr-10-02 29
 From myDD weblog today: Vis Numar Apr-10-02 35
 :-( Terwilliger Apr-10-02 36
 BBC Link Jack Rabbit Apr-10-02 37
 Fallout: Sharon cancels withdrawal Jack Rabbit Apr-10-02 70
   i have some emmy 04/10/2002 75
       Israel has been shelled from Lebanon, for example. jem note 04/10/2002 78
           Don't Forget That Israel Had A Hand In Creating Some Of These ItAintEazy 04/10/2002 126
               Even if true, so what. jem note 04/10/2002 130
                   Yeah, And When Was The PA Directly Involved In Terrorist Attacks? ItAintEazy 04/10/2002 137
                       You might recall the PA's revolving door jail policy, jem note 04/10/2002 139
                           And Israels... Devils Advocate NZ 04/11/2002 144
                               180 arrests by Palestinian Authority ad_jameson 04/11/2002 156
                           Jem when have they "refused" to arrest suspects? ad_jameson 04/11/2002 155
   Perhaps I ma just a cynic tony da Mutt 04/10/2002 82
   "Sharon cancels withdrawal" - what withdraw? bpilgrim 04/10/2002 101
   Actually, this happened before Haifa. JDWalley 04/10/2002 107

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Messages in this topic

jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:37 AM (ET)
1. 20 wounded n/t
.
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Onemore (699 posts) Click to EMail Onemore Click to send private message to Onemore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:50 AM (ET)
Reply to post #1
6. One more post to a thousand Jem
Sorry under such tragic circumstances.

Yet another destructive act, to add to the others. Horrendous beyond measure, as are the others.

Don't bring out the General in you!
- Gilles Deleuze & Felix Guattari, "A Thousand Plateaus"

The thought that there might be a political response to fascism makes me laugh. Shall we set our little fascism against their big one? Organize ourselves, become disciplined, maybe we could make ourselves some smart uniforms and stomp about in the street? Politics is the last great sentimental indulgence of mankind, and it has never achieved anything except a deepened idiocy, more work, more repression, more pompous assholes demanding obedience. Quite naturally, we are bored of it to the point of acute sickness. I have no interest at all in groping at power in the blister. What matters is burning a hole through the wall. - Nick Land

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cameron22 (64 posts) Click to EMail cameron22 Click to send private message to cameron22 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 11:06 AM (ET)
Reply to post #1
77. What did we really expect???
The continued destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, bulldozing of peoples homes, denial of medical resources, water, and food...should go unanswered?? Get real folks. What if this were happening in your neighborhood? What if someone invaded your home because they didn't like your living next to them?
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Cappurr Donating Member (5206 posts) Click to EMail Cappurr Click to send private message to Cappurr Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:39 AM (ET)
2. It is a commuter bus....
They are reporting "lots of bodies". This is just going to blow way up, isn't it? Powell may as well turn around and go home. The Chimp is/was too inexperienced for this job. And he hated everything Clinton too much.


Cats rule; Republicans drool

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mzpip Donating Member (1654 posts) Click to EMail mzpip Click to send private message to mzpip Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:41 AM (ET)
3. And so it goes
round and round, never ending. Damn it.

MzPip

"A plague on both your houses." William Shakespear

"Conservatives aren't necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." John Stuart Mill

"You can put lipstick on a hog and call it Monique, but it's still a pig." Ann Richards

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salin Donating Member (2753 posts) Click to EMail salin Click to send private message to salin Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:45 AM (ET)
Reply to post #3
5. with tons of pain, destruction and carnage in every direction
each offensive and counter offensive brings death and escalation towards more death.

"We expect there to be transparency. People who have something to hide make us nervous...." GWB in Alaska - discussing Iraq.

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Ontological Phrenologist (285 posts) Click to EMail Ontological%20Phrenologist Click to send private message to Ontological%20Phrenologist Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:44 AM (ET)
4. So much for the pause
in bombings in Israel.

Now what, Mr. Sharon?

This bombing, if it turns out to be big, could mean the end of the Sharon government. Israelis are going to be fucking pissed.

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 00:59 AM (ET)
7. Many dead; bus destroyed; cars in ditches.
<http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Flash2.html>

Quote: "To my regret, the sight is horrible," eyewitness Yitzhak Rotman told Israel Radio from the scene. "There are many dead bodies, some outside the bus, some inside ... The bus is shattered, from one end to the other."

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Karmadillo (337 posts) Click to EMail Karmadillo Click to send private message to Karmadillo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:00 AM (ET)
8. YAHOO LINK. "Several were killed."
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 01:05 AM (ET)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020410/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_explosion_166

JERUSALEM (AP) - A bus exploded Wednesday during rush hour near the northern port city of Haifa, injuring many people, police and emergency officials said.

<edit>

Police told the radio station that "several were killed."

more...

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Onemore (699 posts) Click to EMail Onemore Click to send private message to Onemore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #8
10. That's a DU link, isn't it?
?

Don't bring out the General in you!
- Gilles Deleuze & Felix Guattari, "A Thousand Plateaus"

The thought that there might be a political response to fascism makes me laugh. Shall we set our little fascism against their big one? Organize ourselves, become disciplined, maybe we could make ourselves some smart uniforms and stomp about in the street? Politics is the last great sentimental indulgence of mankind, and it has never achieved anything except a deepened idiocy, more work, more repression, more pompous assholes demanding obedience. Quite naturally, we are bored of it to the point of acute sickness. I have no interest at all in groping at power in the blister. What matters is burning a hole through the wall. - Nick Land

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Karmadillo (337 posts) Click to EMail Karmadillo Click to send private message to Karmadillo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:06 AM (ET)
Reply to post #10
13. Link fixed. Thanks. n/t
n/t
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nsaixphnutex (550 posts) Click to EMail nsaixphnutex Click to send private message to nsaixphnutex Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:03 AM (ET)
9. This is sad
The cycle of violence continues for another loop, once again.

CNN now reporting up to 10 killed. Israel has said approximately 200 Palestinians are dead because of their operation. The cycle of violence continues.

When will someone realize that reacting to violence with more violence only breeds more violence?

Live simply so others may simply live

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." -Albert Einstein

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WatchWhatISay Donating Member (633 posts) Click to EMail WatchWhatISay Click to send private message to WatchWhatISay Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:12 AM (ET)
Reply to post #9
17. Well, it is sure
going to have to be someone besides us!
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instantkarma (76 posts) Click to EMail instantkarma Click to send private message to instantkarma Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 05:23 AM (ET)
Reply to post #9
55. imagine...
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

"Hate multiplies hate,
violence multiplies violence,
toughness multiplies toughness
in a descending spiral of destruction."

"The chain reaction of evil -- hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars -- must be broken,
or we shall be plunged into the darkness...
of annihilation."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (3002 posts) Click to EMail NNN0LHI Click to send private message to NNN0LHI Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:04 AM (ET)
11. MSNBC reporting 10 dead. Will this madness ever end?
Don
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Cappurr Donating Member (5206 posts) Click to EMail Cappurr Click to send private message to Cappurr Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:06 AM (ET)
Reply to post #11
12. Did you see the bus???
Torn apart. Roof blown off. And if they are saying 10 now there will be more.


Cats rule; Republicans drool

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (3002 posts) Click to EMail NNN0LHI Click to send private message to NNN0LHI Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:09 AM (ET)
Reply to post #12
15. I saw it and it looked like it was cracked in half like an egg.
Jeez.

Don

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proud patriot Donating Member (3162 posts) Click to EMail proud%20patriot Click to send private message to proud%20patriot Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:10 AM (ET)
Reply to post #12
16. Tragic
I'm really saddened by this. When will this stop .
No more Dammit .

PEACE..LOVE..AND IMPEACH BUSH INC. NOW

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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 08:56 AM (ET)
Reply to post #16
56. Why can't the world get smart and......
Send in U.N. peacekeepers.....NOW...before one more life gets lost in this neverending tragedy!!!!!! Damn...wake the fuck up world!

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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DoveTurnedHawk (223 posts) Click to EMail DoveTurnedHawk Click to send private message to DoveTurnedHawk Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:06 PM (ET)
Reply to post #56
100. Peacekeepers
Send in U.N. peacekeepers.....NOW...before one more life gets lost in this neverending tragedy!!!!!!

How are Peacekeepers going to stop the suicide bombers?

DTH

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:08 AM (ET)
14. So what exactly has the Israeli attack done again?
Israel supporters have time and again said this latest series of attacks in Palestininan areas was justified becuase it had stopped the Palestinian suicide bombings. But then this happens. Even while the Israeli tanks are still in most Palestinian areas, another suicide bombing, possibly worse than all the previous ones. What will happen once the Israelis pull out? Do you think there will be more or less suicide bombings now?

Sharon's plan has failed, this attack has done the complete opposite to what he claimed, and Israelis are now less secure than before the attack. When will the Israeli people wake up? You can't kill terrorism by killing terrorists! You can only kill terrorism by killing the conditions in which terrorism flourishes, and this latest series of Israeli attacks does just the opposite.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:12 AM (ET)
Reply to post #14
18. Confiscated many weapons; shut down numerous bomb making labs;
and caught (and killed) many terrorists.

That's not totally unsuccessful.

But unfortunately, one bomb has gotten through.

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Onemore (699 posts) Click to EMail Onemore Click to send private message to Onemore Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:14 AM (ET)
Reply to post #18
19. Unfortunately, Jem
To be followed by many others, almost inevitably, as long as the current situation persists.

But I have no intention of getting into it with you now. This is a time to mourn for the sick week we've seen.

Don't bring out the General in you!
- Gilles Deleuze & Felix Guattari, "A Thousand Plateaus"

The thought that there might be a political response to fascism makes me laugh. Shall we set our little fascism against their big one? Organize ourselves, become disciplined, maybe we could make ourselves some smart uniforms and stomp about in the street? Politics is the last great sentimental indulgence of mankind, and it has never achieved anything except a deepened idiocy, more work, more repression, more pompous assholes demanding obedience. Quite naturally, we are bored of it to the point of acute sickness. I have no interest at all in groping at power in the blister. What matters is burning a hole through the wall. - Nick Land

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:19 AM (ET)
Reply to post #18
21. It's a waste of time arguing that the attacks have been succesful
To claim the Isreali attacks have been succesful is to claim that the US won the Vietnam war! It doesn't matter how many Palestinian militants were killed, nor how many bomb labs were destroyed, nor how many weapons were captured, the fact is you could kill them all, destroy them all and capture them all, and soon enough there would be more! Don't you get that? As long as one Palestinian wants to become a suicide bomber, there will always be suicide bombers!

Israel has got to agree to a fair and equitable peace agreement or it may as well get used to being bombed.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:30 AM (ET)
Reply to post #21
26. True.
I wasn't arguing that it has been successful.

Some people would argue that most people in Israel are used to being bombed. After all, attacks on Israelis have pretty much been a constant in Israel for over 50 years.

Israel has agreed to fair and equitable peace agreements. Perhaps now it's time for the Palestinians and the Arab states to agree to a fair and equitable peace agreement, and then actually implement it.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:46 AM (ET)
Reply to post #26
31. No they haven't
Israel has agreed to fair and equitable peace agreements. Perhaps now it's time for the Palestinians and the Arab states to agree to a fair and equitable peace agreement, and then actually implement it.

Not once has Israel agreed to a fair and equitable peace agreement. You can not call it fair when Israel demands that Palestinians make all the concessions. Israel wanted to annex Palestinian lands, and to break up what was left by creating Israeli controlled 'bypass roads' that resulted in a Palestinian area which can not be a viable state. That is not fair, nor is it equitable.

Palestinians have already conceded 70% of their original territory that was supposed to form the Palestinian state alongside Israel, and the Israelis want them to concede more! Israel treats its Arab citizens as second class citizens and refuses to allow those Arabs driven from their homes in Israeli areas to return, while also refusing to compensate them for their loss. In what way can that be called fair and equitable?

At the end of the Israeli War of Independence, land officially owned by the State and Jewish individuals and organizations amounted to about 13.5% of the state’s territory.<8> To fulfil the Zionist project of Judaizing the land, Israel fashioned a national-collectivist land regime, rapidly and systematically expanding the land in its control.<9> By the 1960's approximately 93% of the Israeli territory came to the ownership and control of public and Jewish institutions aggregated together into Israel Lands .<10> The land nationalization took place through two major channels: 1) Nationalization of Palestinian land through the military, administrative and legal sovereign powers of Israel. The property of the Palestinian refugees, was fully transferred to public/Jewish ownership. In addition, Palestinians that remained and became Israeli citizens lost approximately 40-60% of the land they had possessed.<11> 2) Formal registration of all British Mandate's land in the State of Israel's name. Much of the million of dunums transferred to State-ownership during this process had hitherto been unregistered, but indeed legally belonged to the State. However, additional land was transferred from its Arab and Bedouin landholders as a result of crafty changes in land possession rules, mainly those concerning “Mewat” (‘dead’ land) and adverse possession.<12> Thus, Palestinian land served as a major source in the making of Israeli land regime.
Dr. Alexandre Kedar, Law School, Haifa University, March 2000
http://lawatch.haifa.ac.il/eng/select/march_00.html

Even the Israeli's know that Arabs were and are mistreated by the Israeli Government. How can you refuse to accept it?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:55 AM (ET)
Reply to post #31
33. Neither the time nor the place.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 02:01 AM (ET)

But: if the Arabs had accepted the original partition plan (as did Israel) the Palestinians could have had their state over 50 years ago. Instead, they chose war, and now they'll be more than lucky to get an independent, self-functioning state anytime soon.

Also, Israel has signed peace agreements with Jordann and Egypt. Fair and equitable is debatable, of course, especially with the latter, but peace agreements have been ratified.

And the Arabs got well over 70% of the original partition for a state for the Palestinians. In fact, it's close to 80%, and anything they get now only adds to that figure.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 02:07 AM (ET)
Reply to post #33
38. So now history DOES matter?
Well then lets keep going back a few more years then. Israel was created out of terrorism, so Israel has no right to exist! You see, we can argue around in circles with each of us going backward and forward in time, and still not come up with a fair deal for Palestinians.

Israel got more than a fair deal by 1967, so it should be more than happy with that border. Yet it is not. Why? The Palestinians have been caught in the middle between the Arab states and Israel and at the moment are under illegal occupation by the Israelis. Why should the Palestinians be happy with that situation? If they are not happy, then the bombings will continue.

Remember though, that the UN created Israel, so Israel is a child of the UN. One of the foremost rules of the UN is that land can not be annexed by military force. Therefore under UN rules, none of the territory it seized beyond its original UN mandated border is legally theirs, yet the Palestinians agreed to allow the Israelis to keep the land they had acquired by 1967. So by then the Palestinians had already made huge concessions that they did not have to make. Yet the Israelis wanted more!


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 02:19 AM (ET)
Reply to post #38
40. Israel has no right to exist?
Israel was created just as legitimately, if not more so, than probably every Arab country--but nobody (that I've heard) is calling those countries illegal, despite the fact none of them are democracies and all of them have terrible human rights records (and most of which practice blantant apartheid). Your view of history will be more valid and accurate when you apply it equally to other countries besides Israel.

That the U.N. created Israel is debatable. Israel proclaimed itself a state, not the U.N., among other things.

That the Palestinians made huge concessions is also debatable.

And are you sure that the U.N. says that land cannot be annexed by military force? (Keep in mind that Jordan was never censured by the U.N. when it illegally annexed the West Bank.)

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 02:39 AM (ET)
Reply to post #40
42. Actually, I believe they do have a right to exist
I was merely pointing out that any argument that can apply to Palestinians today could apply to the Israel of over fifty years ago.

I have said multiple times that what happens in Arab nations is irrelevant becuase those nations are not Israel nor 'Palestine'. Their abuses do not justify Israels abuses. To claim otherwise could lead to the claim that Nazi Germany's genocide of Jews justifies Israeli genocide of Palestinians. It doesn't. Other nations actions do not justify Israels actions.

That the U.N. created Israel is debatable. Israel proclaimed itself a state, not the U.N., among other things.

Yes it proclaimed itself a state, after it was given land to do so by the UN.

And are you sure that the U.N. says that land cannot be annexed by military force? (Keep in mind that Jordan was never censured by the U.N. when it illegally annexed the West Bank.)

Yes I'm sure. The fact rules are broken does not mean those rules do not exist.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 03:03 AM (ET)
Reply to post #42
46. Great.
You state that Israel proclaimed itself a state "after it was given land to do so by the UN." That's not what happened.

And U.N. resolutions do not state that a country whose acquired territory was gained in a defensive war, in which it was in fact attacked by other countries, subsequently holds that territory illegally.

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Apr-10-02, 04:08 AM (ET)
Reply to post #46
50. A partial concession
You state that Israel proclaimed itself a state "after it was given land to do so by the UN." That's not what happened.

Yes, you are right in the strictest sense. The UN mandated that a state be granted to the Jews, and a seperate state to the Palestinians. The British however refused that decision which led to the Israelis declaring a war of independance.

UNITED NATIONS DECISION TO ESTABLISH A JEWISH STATE
Jews and Arabs alike opposed British rule and the situation continued to deteriorate. In 1946 the Anglo-American Inquiry Commission recommended the immediate immigration of 100,000 refugees. It also recommended revoking the Lands Law, as set down in the White Paper. The British rejected these suggestions and refused to implement them. The Jewish community intensified their opposition. The 11 member United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) resolved that both Arabs and Jews should be granted full independence and that Jerusalem should be internationalized. On the night of November 29, 1947 the U.N. General Assembly took a vote on approving the Palestine Partition Plan.
Every household in the entire country was glued to the radio as the President of the General Assembly called on each of the member nations to state its position on partition: in favor, against or abstaining. The result of the roll call was 33 in favor, 13 opposed and 11 abstaining. By a large majority the decision was taken to partition the country into two states. And so, 50 years after the First Zionist Congress, the establishment of a state for the Jewish People in the Land of Israel gained international approval. This was the debt paid by the family of nations to the Jewish People for the terrible slaughter of six million Jews.

http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/50/time/48.html

And U.N. resolutions do not state that a country whose acquired territory was gained in a defensive war, in which it was in fact attacked by other countries, subsequently holds that territory illegally.

I will defer to Kofi Annan:

On Tuesday, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan publicly denounced Israel's "illegal occupation" of Palestinian territories, his strongest denunciation yet.

At a press conference yesterday, Mr. Annan defended his remarks.

"Issues such as establishment of settlements, the imposition of Israeli laws and jurisdiction, and administration over East Jerusalem and some of the events we have witnessed have been described as illegal," he said.
http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020314-99901693.htm


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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sangha (934 posts) Click to EMail sangha Click to send private message to sangha Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 10:35 AM (ET)
Reply to post #46
71. Not just UN resolutions
The Geneva Conventions also forbids the annexation of foriegn land, even when it was taken in defense of it's own borders and people.
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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:31 AM (ET)
Reply to post #40
58. Jem Note.....
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 09:36 AM (ET)

There are other Arab democracies! I got sick of hearing how Israel is the only democracy (albiet she's not behaving like one)....so I did some research...because I don't believe everything I hear...here are links.

Egypt: http://www.arabdatanet.com/country/profiles/profile.asp?CtryName=Egypt&CtryAbrv=eg&NavTitle=Political%20Structure

Lebanon: http://www.arabdatanet.com/country/profiles/profile.asp?CtryName=Lebanon&CtryAbrv=le&NavTitle=Political%20Structure

Syria: http://www.arabdatanet.com/country/profiles/profile.asp?CtryName=Syria&CtryAbrv=sy&NavTitle=Political%20Structure

Algeria: http://www.arabdatanet.com/country/profiles/profile.asp?CtryName=Algeria&CtryAbrv=al&NavTitle=Political%20Structure

Tunisia: http://www.arabdatanet.com/country/profiles/profile.asp?CtryName=Tunisia&CtryAbrv=tu&NavTitle=Political%20Structure

Just because you hear that Israel is the only democracy, doesn't make it a fact....This is just an FYI that there are other Arab democracies in that region...so I would not like to hear that there aren't.

With respect,

Tony

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:41 AM (ET)
Reply to post #58
60. Democracies?
The countries you list may be democracies in theory, but they're certainly not democracies in practice. Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt--give me a break. I suggest you do some more research.
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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:45 AM (ET)
Reply to post #60
61. Just because you don't think they are doesn't make it a fact....
Israel is a democracy in theory...but I would hate to say that she's practicing!!!!!!! I shot your point down that she's the only democracy...I provided links that support my argument...yet you still can't believe it because it doesn't serve your purpose...I had more respect for you until now...you truly can't see anything other than your point and your point alone.

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 10:03 AM (ET)
Reply to post #61
69. It's not just me.
Ask the Jews in Lebanon and Syria, who aren't allowed to sit in their country's representative bodies. They would probably agree with me. Ask the people in Egypt who aren't allowed to pick their president, and who have lived under military law for over 20 years. Most of them would probably agree with me too. Ask the thousands (!) of people who have disappeared while in state custody in Algeria in recent months--they would probably agree that Algeria isn't a democracy. Ask the people of Tunisia, whose "democratic" government has been dominated by one party for 15 years, and who do not have freedom of religion, speech, press, or assembly, and whose female citizens are legally discriminated against.

I would like to believe, as you do, that these countries you mention are democracies. Unfortunately, in most everything other than name they're clearly not.

And please stop saying that I am of the mindset that Israel can do no wrong. I have stated the contrary in these forums many times.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 12:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #69
90. What about the Israeli Arabs?
Ask the Jews in Lebanon and Syria, who aren't allowed to sit in their country's representative bodies. They would probably agree with me. Ask the people in Egypt who aren't allowed to pick their president, and who have lived under military law for over 20 years.

What do you think has happened to the Israeli Arabs? They lived under military rule for decades, had most of their land seized by the Israeli Government, and now are denied owning or leasing over 93% of Israels land. Those that stayed are second class citizens who are denied full and equal rights under Israeli law. Those who left are denied the right to return to their own land!

Anywhere else in the world this is called ethnic cleansing!


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 12:46 PM (ET)
Reply to post #90
92. You're getting your terms mixed up.
The 93% figure you mention applies to all Israeli citizens, not just Arabs. Anyway, Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which Arab citizens are given the right to the vote for the leader of the country and other basic democratic rights. It's not a perfect country, and no country is, but it's the best example of democracy in the Middle East.

("Those who left are denied the right to return to their own land!" This is true for practically all refugees, regardless of the country in question. It can't automatically be labeled ethnic cleansing, since it clearly wasn't.)

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #92
103. Not at all.
The 93% figure you mention applies to all Israeli citizens, not just Arabs.

That is totally incorrect.

The creation of the Israeli land regime involved also the allocation of possession (but not ownership) of much of the land now belonging to Israel Lands. The possession of this public land, (including Arab land transferred to it), was allocated to Jewish residents and settlements.<13> While rural land was allocated principally to Kibbutzim and Moshavim, Arab citizens of Israel remained excluded from this covert and complex allocation system.<14> A different classification of possessory rights in land into distinctive spatial/legal categories permitted the implementation of discriminatory rules, while simultaneously maintaining a neutral facade.
Dr. Alexandre Kedar, Law School, Haifa University
http://lawatch.haifa.ac.il/eng/select/march_00.html

In other words, 93% of the land in Israel was and is allocated to Jewish organisations for the use of Jews only.

Anyway, Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which Arab citizens are given the right to the vote for the leader of the country and other basic democratic rights.

Apart from not being the only nation in the Middle East where Arabs can vote for their leaders, do not "democratic rights" also include the right to be treated equally before the law with all other citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, race or creed? In fact that is a basic human right and yet Israel admittedly does not grant this right to its Arab citizens!

("Those who left are denied the right to return to their own land!" This is true for practically all refugees, regardless of the country in question. It can't automatically be labeled ethnic cleansing, since it clearly wasn't.)

At the end of the Israeli War of Independence, land officially owned by the State and Jewish individuals and organizations amounted to about 13.5% of the state’s territory.<8> To fulfil the Zionist project of Judaizing the land, Israel fashioned a national-collectivist land regime, rapidly and systematically expanding the land in its control.<9> By the 1960's approximately 93% of the Israeli territory came to the ownership and control of public and Jewish institutions aggregated together into Israel Lands .<10> The land nationalization took place through two major channels: 1) Nationalization of Palestinian land through the military, administrative and legal sovereign powers of Israel. The property of the Palestinian refugees, was fully transferred to public/Jewish ownership. In addition, Palestinians that remained and became Israeli citizens lost approximately 40-60% of the land they had possessed.<11> 2) Formal registration of all British Mandate's land in the State of Israel's name. Much of the million of dunums transferred to State-ownership during this process had hitherto been unregistered, but indeed legally belonged to the State. However, additional land was transferred from its Arab and Bedouin landholders as a result of crafty changes in land possession rules, mainly those concerning “Mewat” (‘dead’ land) and adverse possession.<12> Thus, Palestinian land served as a major source in the making of Israeli land regime.
...
On the basis of this system, Israel developed during the late 1970’s a new settlement type, the Mitzpim (Lookouts). A major motivating force for the establishment of the Mitzpim has been the desire to Judaize the Galilee. This region was perceived as representing a "demographic threat", because of the high proportion of Arabs residing in the area and its proximity to the Northern border. The Mitzpim were established in strategic locations in order to promote Jewish presence in the area and prevent Arab "encroachment" over public land. Such settlements offered high quality "suburban" residence in subsidized prices geared to induce Jews to move to the Galilee.<15> The Mitzpim then expanded into additional Israeli regions and this new type of settlement became known as ‘Community Settlements'. Katzir was established in the same way, in an area densely populated by Arabs and bordering the 1967 "Green line".

Dr. Alexandre Kedar, Law School, Haifa University
http://lawatch.haifa.ac.il/eng/select/march_00.html

Do I really need to point out how the bolded phrases constitute ethnic cleansing?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #103
105. The points have already been refuted.
And this is a fact: Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which Arab citizens are given the right to the vote for the leader of the country and other basic democratic rights.

Again, Israel is not a perfect country, and no country is. But your attempts to show that Israel is an apartheid state that treats its Arab citizens as "subhuman" (your word) and that practices ethnic cleansing contradicts the reality of the situation.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 02:34 PM (ET)
Reply to post #105
109. No they haven't
And this is a fact: Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which Arab citizens are given the right to the vote for the leader of the country and other basic democratic rights.

No it's a lie.

From the CIA World Factbook 2001:

Country name: conventional long form: Arab Republic of Egypt
...
elections: president nominated by the People's Assembly for a six-year term, the nomination must then be validated by a national, popular referendum; national referendum last held 26 September 1999 (next to be held NA October 2005); prime minister appointed by the president

election results: national referendum validated President MUBARAK's nomination by the People's Assembly to a fourth term
...
elections: People's Assembly - three-phase voting - last held 19 October, 29 October, 8 November 2000 (next to be held NA November 2005); Advisory Council - last held 7 June 1995 (next to be held NA)

election results: People's Assembly - percent of vote by party - NDP 88%, independents 8%, opposition 4%; seats by party - NDP 398, NWP 7, Tagammu 6, Nasserists 2, LSP 1, independents 38, undecided 2; Advisory Council - percent of vote by party - NDP 99%, independents 1%; seats by party - NA
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/eg.html

Or are you saying that the CIA, the main intelligence organisation of Israels greatest ally, is a liar?

Again, Israel is not a perfect country, and no country is. But your attempts to show that Israel is an apartheid state that treats its Arab citizens as "subhuman" (your word) and that practices ethnic cleansing contradicts the reality of the situation.

No, your attempts to deny that Israel is an apartheid state that treats it's Arab population as second class citizens, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, contradicts the reality of the situation.

By the way, what I said was "who treat their own Arab population as second class citizens and seem to consider non-Israeli Arabs as sub-human" (Post #91). That is very different from "that treats its Arab citizens as "subhuman" (your word)".

Your propaganda techniques won't work, I have truth on my side.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 03:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #109
114. They have.
In this thread and in others.

The information you present about Egypt doesn't counter my claim. The people in Egypt do not pick their leader: as noted in your citation above, the president is picked by an assmebly, not the people themselves. They get to validate the selection, but they don't get to choose. Under the country's 20+ years of military emergency, most democratic rights have been curtailed or eliminated.

Israel is not an apartheid state, and no overwhelming evidence to the contrary has been presented. (One professor's short article is not over overwhelming evidence.)

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 05:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #114
116. Oh what a lame excuse! (PS They haven't)
In this thread and in others.

No they haven't. You saying they have, does not make it true. In this thread you have denied them, but not refuted them. I posted quotes from an Israeli Law School Professor that proved that Israel does indeed descriminate against Palestinians both in law and deed. You just denied it and said that it had been refuted. By whom? And if it has been refuted, why did the Israeli Supreme Court rule that it was true?

I also posted that other Middle Eastern countries are democratic (well at least as democratic as Israel), and that Israel denies full "democratic" rights to Palestinians. You just denied it and said it had been refuted. By whom? And considering the CIA says Egypt is democratic, and considering the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that Palestinians are descriminated against, what was their argument?

The information you present about Egypt doesn't counter my claim. The people in Egypt do not pick their leader: as noted in your citation above, the president is picked by an assmebly, not the people themselves. They get to validate the selection, but they don't get to choose. Under the country's 20+ years of military emergency, most democratic rights have been curtailed or eliminated.

Oh come on!!!! Really what a lame excuse! The people elect the assembly (the last such election was in 2000), the assaembly chooses a President, the people approve the selection via referendum (the last such referendum was in 1999). That's one more step of democracy than Israel now has:

Country name: conventional long form: State of Israel
...
Executive branch: chief of state: President Moshe KATSAV (since 31 July 2000)

head of government: Prime Minister Ariel SHARON (since 2 March 2001)

cabinet: Cabinet selected by prime minister and approved by the Knesset

elections: president elected by the Knesset for a five-year term; election last held 31 July 2000 (next to be held NA July 2005); prime minister elected by popular vote for a four-year term; election last held 6 February 2001 (next to be held NA 2005); note - in March 1992, the Knesset approved legislation, effective in 1996, which allowed for the direct election of the prime minister, but in 2001 the Knesset voted to restore the previous method under which the legislators will choose the next prime minister after the next legislative elections in 2003

election results: Moshe KATSAV elected president by the 120-member Knesset with a total of 60 votes, other candidate, Shimon PERES, received 57 votes (there were three abstentions); Ariel SHARON elected prime minister; percent of vote - Ariel SHARON 62.5%, Ehud BARAK 37.4%; note - after the next legislative elections scheduled for 2003, the prime minister will be elected by the Knesset

Legislative branch: unicameral Knesset or parliament (120 seats; members elected by popular vote to serve four-year terms)

elections: last held 17 May 1999 (next to be held NA November 2003)

election results: percent of vote by party - One Israel 20.2%, Likud Party 14.1%, Shas 13%, MERETZ 7.6%, Yisra'el Ba'Aliya 5.1%, Shinui 5%, Center Party 5%, National Religious Party 4.2%, United Torah Judaism 3.7%, United Arab List 3.4%, National Union 3%, Hadash 2.6%, Yisra'el Beiteinu 2.6%, Balad 1.9%, One Nation 1.9%, Democratic Movement NA (party formed after election, members elected under Yisra'el Ba'Aliya list); seats by party - One Israel 26, Likud Party 19, Shas 17, MERETZ 10, Yisra'el Ba'Aliya 4, Shinui 6, Center Party 6, National Religious Party 5, United Torah Judaism 5, United Arab List 5, National Union 4, Hadash 3, Yisra'el Beiteinu 4, Democratic Movement 2 (party formed after election, members elected under Yisra'el Ba'Aliya list), Balad 2, One Nation 2
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

Notice the bolded sentences? What do they say? They say that as of 2003 both the Prime Minister and the President of Israel will be selected by the Knesset. No mention of a referendum to approve the selection... in other words in 2003 Israel will be less democratic than Egypt!

Israel is not an apartheid state, and no overwhelming evidence to the contrary has been presented. (One professor's short article is not over overwhelming evidence.)

I suppose you consider an Israeli Supreme Court decision to not be overwhelming evidence? The court decided in March 2000 that the Israeli Government was descriminating against Palestinians in Israel, and then proceeded to let the Government decide whether or not to stop doing so! Can there be any evidence any more overwhelming than that?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 05:25 PM (ET)
Reply to post #116
117. They have.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 05:29 PM (ET)

As noted, Egypt is a poor excuse for a democracy (evidenced by, among other things, 20+ years of military law), which you have not disproven. It is highly doubtful that Israel in 2003 will be less of a democracy than Egypt, especially considering that Egypt's military controls the country, and has for over 20 years. Your points prove nothing except your own beliefs.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 06:42 PM (ET)
Reply to post #117
122. They haven't (see I can play the loop tape too)
As noted, Egypt is a poor excuse for a democracy (evidenced by, among other things, 20+ years of military law), which you have not disproven. It is highly doubtful that Israel in 2003 will be less of a democracy than Egypt, especially considering that Egypt's military controls the country, and has for over 20 years. Your points prove nothing except your own beliefs.

Well, they had elections around two years ago, how does that fit into your "military law" excuse?

By the way, your assertion that Egypt is not a democracy is based on your belief, whereas my assertion that it is a democracy is based on the CIA World Factbook of 2001. Why should I believe you rather than the CIA?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 07:20 PM (ET)
Reply to post #122
125. If you want to believe Egypt is a real democracy, fine.
It's a nice fantasy. The fact that one man and one party have dominated the government for over 20 years might upset it, as well as the fact that the government restricts freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, and expression. Also, the fact that thousands of voters were arrested and prevented from voting in the election you mention might, in some people's eyes, call into question the legitimacy of the election, as well as Egypt's purported democratic credentials. But I'm sure there's hardly any point in further helping you better understand Egypt.
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Apr-10-02, 08:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #125
132. So now we are talking about REAL democracies?
It's a nice fantasy. The fact that one man and one party have dominated the government for over 20 years might upset it, as well as the fact that the government restricts freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, and expression. Also, the fact that thousands of voters were arrested and prevented from voting in the election you mention might, in some people's eyes, call into question the legitimacy of the election, as well as Egypt's purported democratic credentials. But I'm sure there's hardly any point in further helping you better understand Egypt.

75% of the Palestinian inhabitants of Israel were driven out, and the remainder are second class citizens under the law, and you claim Israel is a real democracy? Remember one of the main reasons the peace process has failed so far is Israels refusal to accept the Palestinian refugees back into the country. Why is this so important to the Israelis? Because if they did, Jews would become a minority in Israel and therefore they would be unable to sustain their aparently democratic system, without having the Palestinians becoming the ruling power.

So much for democracy.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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Apr-10-02, 12:26 PM (ET)
Reply to post #60
89. No more or less so than Israel
I have already pointed out multiple times that Israel descriminates against Arabs in law and in deed. Any country that maintains an apartheid system can not honestly call itself a democracy.


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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 12:48 PM (ET)
Reply to post #89
93. Please.
Israel's treatment of its Arab citizens is better than any Arab country's treatment of its citizens. To equivocate Israel with Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon is incorrect.
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Apr-10-02, 01:30 PM (ET)
Reply to post #93
104. Not me...
Israel's treatment of its Arab citizens is better than any Arab country's treatment of its citizens. To equivocate Israel with Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon is incorrect.

It was not I who brought other Arab nations into the discussion. If you don't like Israel being compared to them, you shouldn't have brought them into this discussion on Israels treatment of its Arab citizens.

I am only trying to show that as long as Israel continues to descriminate against it's own Arab citizens, and to treat Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories even worse, Israel can expect bombings like this morning to contiue.

Only by recognising and removing the grievances of the Palestinian people, can Israel ever hope to achieve peace. The Palestinians have done their part by recognising Israel's right to exist, now Israel must do it's part.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:39 PM (ET)
Reply to post #104
106. The Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist?
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 01:43 PM (ET)

Some of them maybe, but not their official leadership, as evidenced by the fact that the PA's official map of Israel doesn't even include it.


You state that "Israel can expect bombings like this morning to contiue" if current conditions remain. That Palestinian suicide bombings against civilians is an inevitabilty under current situations is a pretty low assessment Palestinian civility.

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Apr-10-02, 02:45 PM (ET)
Reply to post #106
110. Yes they have.
Some of them maybe, but not their official leadership, as evidenced by the fact that the PA's official map of Israel doesn't even include it.

Are Yasser Arafat and the PLO the official leadership of the Palestinian People?

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators.

In view of the pormise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman
The Palestine Liberation Organization

Letter from Yasser Arafat to Prime Minister Rabin, September 9, 1993
http://almashriq.hiof.no/israel/300/320/327/israel-plo_recognition.html

It seems your knowledge of this issue is a bit lacking.

You state that "Israel can expect bombings like this morning to contiue" if current conditions remain. That Palestinian suicide bombings against civilians is an inevitabilty under current situations is a pretty low assessment Palestinian civility.

No, it is a realistic assesment of the Palestinians response to Israeli actions, that takes account of the enormous disparities between the two parties' military capabilites. As for civility, remember that Israel was born out of terrorism, so I wouldn't be too quick to point that finger.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 03:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #110
112. No, they haven't.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-02 AT 03:12 PM (ET)

This is evidenced by the fact that their official map of Israel, which was on the PA's official website until the site went down two weeks ago, does not include Israel. That's not only not recognizing the right of Israel to exist, but denying the fact that it does exist. You seem kind of up to date on what Arafat and the were saying 8 year over; but you might want to familiarize yourself with what they've been saying and doing since then, especially lately, because much of it contradicts what you seem to believe about them.

Arafat and the Palestinian National Authority are official representatives of the Palestinian people. Some of the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, but most of their official leadership does not.

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Apr-10-02, 06:04 PM (ET)
Reply to post #112
118. Yes they have!
This is evidenced by the fact that their official map of Israel, which was on the PA's official website until the site went down two weeks ago, does not include Israel.

So an image on a website, one that now is not available, is better evidence than a letter to a head of state?

But, just in case, I went searching. What did I find? Well, how about the offical PLO Negotiations Affairs Department website? So is this map that shows all of Israel being labelled "Palestine" there? Nope. But this is:

The Palestinians' Historic Compromise
The Palestinian people have made a historical territorial compromise by accepting UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, agreeing to establish a Palestinian state only in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, i.e. on only 22% of historical Palestine, and relinquishing their internationally recognized historical and legal rights to the rest of Palestine. Any further dismemberment of Palestinian territory would not guarantee the minimum national prospects for Palestinians; thus it would serve to create a strong sense of injustice and national grievance among the Palestinian people and severely undermine their belief in the credibility of the peace process, ultimately threatening the durability, sustainability and security of peace in the area.

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/hiscomp.html

I also found Yasser Arafats official website (http://www.p-p-o.com/), and still no map showing all of Israel being labelled "Palestine".

Can you point me to any instance of this map at all?

You seem kind of up to date on what Arafat and the were saying 8 year over; but you might want to familiarize yourself with what they've been saying and doing since then, especially lately, because much of it contradicts what you seem to believe about them.

Arafat and the Palestinian National Authority are official representatives of the Palestinian people. Some of the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, but most of their official leadership does not.

It seems you are the one that's out of date, if the official PLO-NAD webpage is anything to go by. But don't let that stop you from spreading a good myth.

But what about this:

In 1993, a peace agreement between the PLO and Israel was reached providing for mutual recognition and a transition to a degree of Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In 1994, Arafat appointed an interim 19-member Palestinian National Authority, under his direction, to administer Palestinian affairs in the areas of self-rule. Under a 1995 accord, self-rule was extended over a two-year period to all major Arab cities and villages in the West Bank, except East Jerusalem. Arafat was elected president of the Palestinian-controlled territory in 1996. In the same year the PLO formally revoked all clauses in its founding charter that called for the dissolution of Israel, and Arafat pledged to fight terrorism. Agreements in the late 1990s gradually increased the area of the West Bank under Palestinian control.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0837351.html

Seems that other people can recognise the truth when they see it. Why can't you?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 06:17 PM (ET)
Reply to post #118
119. They haven't.
The PLO hasn't changed its charter (despite saying they would), and its official emblem shows a map of Palestine that does not include Israel. Again, Arafat's actions belie the statements he and his organizations made 8 years ago. If you want to cling to statements from 8 years ago and ignore current actions, your version of the truth, which I will not accept, will remain just as out of date.
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Apr-10-02, 07:36 PM (ET)
Reply to post #119
127. They have (loop tape part ....)
The PLO hasn't changed its charter (despite saying they would), and its official emblem shows a map of Palestine that does not include Israel. Again, Arafat's actions belie the statements he and his organizations made 8 years ago.

You propagandists must hate google huh? Here are the results of my latest search:

PLO Charter

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the PLO charter was amended on December 14 1998 to remove all references calling for the destuction of Israel. President Clinton (the last real President America had) was in attendance, and even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the "The Palestinian Authority (PA) had fulfilled its obligation under the peace accords."

The Israeli government released the following statement following the vote:

PM Netanyahu today expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. The prime minister said that his government would continue to insist with the same firmness on the fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments, so as to ensure the implementation of the agreement and the advancement of the peace process.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/revoke.html

So there goes that accusation down the drain. Next!

The map of "Palestine" that includes all of Israel.

This one is true, to an extent. The PLO logo, or 'coat of arms' if you want to call it that, does indeed contain a map of the entire Palestine Mandate pre-1947. But then again, Israeli school text books contain an identical map, except this time it is labelled "Israel":

Second, the most commonly used “current map” of the region draws the borders of Israel to include the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The map fails to delineate the borders of the West bank and the Gaza Strip. Instead, as is shown below, the ccupied Palestinian Territories are collapsed into Israeli territory:
Page 9
http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/third_sub.pdf

Of course this comes from a PLO source, but what it alledges is far worse than an out of date 'coat of arms'. The text book in question is "GEOGRAPHIA HA-ARETZ UMELOA Fifth Grade Textbook (1989), at page 8." Maybe you can have a look and see if the Palestinians are telling the truth.

If you want to cling to statements from 8 years ago and ignore current actions, your version of the truth, which I will not accept, will remain just as out of date.

So you will not accept truth, because it goes against your biases? Well thanks for admitiing it. It takes a brave person to admit that they can not accept any truth that contradicts their cherished beliefs.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 07:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #127
129. They haven't: they voted to change the charter, but they never did.
They voted to change the Covenant, but they haven't. If you don't believe me, go read it: the clauses negating Israel's existence are still there.

And maps in Israeli schoolbooks from 13 years ago didn't dictate national policy then and they don't dictate it now. A 13 year textbook isn't necessarily current either, despite what that PLO webpage would have you believe.

The reason your purported truth goes against my bias, and why I therefore reject your version of the truth, is because it's in contradiction with reality. My rejecting your flawed version isn't really brave, but thanks for the compliment.

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Apr-10-02, 08:54 PM (ET)
Reply to post #129
133. Damn! How can you keep this up?
They voted to change the Covenant, but they haven't. If you don't believe me, go read it: the clauses negating Israel's existence are still there.

So now you doubt the word of Benjamin Netanyahu? How the hell can you keep this up? Are you totally bereft of intellectual honesty?

On December 14, 1998, with President Clinton in attendance, the Palestinian Legislative Council meeting in Gaza voted nearly unanimously to revoke portions of the Palestine National Charter calling for Israel's destruction. Following the vote, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the The Palestinian Authority (PA) had fulfilled its obligation under the peace accords.

More than 1,000 Palestinians participated in the meeting, including more than 450 from the PLO's Palestine National Council (PNC). They stood and voted by a show of hands to reaffirm the nullification of clauses in the PLO charter calling for Israel's destruction. Only a few dozen of the members remained seated during the vote.

More than 100 PNC members stayed away, primarily hardline opponents of the peace process who had denounced making any changes to the charter. Similarly, a handful of right-wing Israeli politicians maintained the vote was not conducted according to the PNC's rules for revocation and continued to insist the Charter remained in effect with the offending articles.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/revoke.html

So because a handful of right-wing Israeli politicians insisted that it had not been done legally, even though both President Clinton and Prime Minister Netanyahu agreed that it had, the charter was not legally ammended?

What gives the Israeli right-wing the authority to make such a declaration? The Palestiniaans considered it ammended. The Israeli and US Governments considered it ammended, yet you decide to accept the opinion of the same kind of people who are calling for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

Can you tell me, are you or are you not a liberal? If you are in fact a liberal, why do you so vigorously support Israeli right-wing opinion?

And maps in Israeli schoolbooks from 13 years ago didn't dictate national policy then and they don't dictate it now. A 13 year textbook isn't necessarily current either, despite what that PLO webpage would have you believe.

And yet a 35 or so year old 'coat of arms' is an accurate representation of current Palestinian policy? How can you be so hypocritical? Aren't you ashamed of the twists and turns your argument has to take to maintain even a semblence of reasonability?

The reason your purported truth goes against my bias, and why I therefore reject your version of the truth, is because it's in contradiction with reality. My rejecting your flawed version isn't really brave, but thanks for the compliment.

My "purported" truth comes directly from the Israeli Supreme Court, pro-Israeli websites and other undeniably unbiased sources. Your "truth" appears to come from nowhere but your own beliefs. Can you post even a single link to an unbiased source that can back up your claims in even the slightest way?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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Apr-10-02, 09:18 PM (ET)
Reply to post #133
135. I really think you are deliberately saying silly things.
Here is the statement from the Israeli government about the PLO's vote to amend its charter: "PM Netanyahu today expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. The prime minister said that his government would continue to insist with the same firmness on the fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments, so as to ensure the implementation of the agreement and the advancement of the peace process."

Netanyahu and the Israeli govenment expressed satisfaction at the PNC vote to change the charter; they did not--and have not--expressed satisfaction at the PNC's changing of the charter, because the PNC hasn't changed it! I refuse to believe that you cannot see the difference.

You evidence a 13 year 5th grade school book as an example of Israeli policy toward Palestinians and Palestinian statehood, and then say, "And yet a 35 or so year old 'coat of arms' is an accurate representation of current Palestinian policy?" You've not shown that a 13 year old elementary school book reflects current Israeli policy. I doubt it did then, and I doubt it does now, and I'm fairly certain that you agree with me. And the PLO emblem--and the emblem is a map--that Arafat and much of the Palestiniann leadership endorse (many still wear it on their sleeves!) does reflect a significant base of their policy, or else they would have repudiated it and/or gotten rid of it.

Then you falsely call me a hypocrite.

Then you say, "My "purported" truth comes directly from the Israeli Supreme Court, pro-Israeli websites and other undeniably unbiased sources." That's also incorrect. As has been pointed out numerous times, your purported truth (which remains incorrect) comes from your own misinterpretations of the sources you mention.

Then you challenge me to post links, when the very links you've posted have already been used to disprove your inaccurate assertions. If you want more evidence to further disprove your points, read--or, perhaps I should say, read accurately--the links you've already posted. For the most part, they're fine.

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Apr-10-02, 10:15 PM (ET)
Reply to post #135
140. Ok, if you insist, let's analyse the words then
Here is the statement from the Israeli government about the PLO's vote to amend its charter: "PM Netanyahu today expressed his satisfaction at the result of the PNC vote today, achieved as a result of the firm stance taken by the government of Israel on the issue of the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel. The prime minister said that his government would continue to insist with the same firmness on the fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments, so as to ensure the implementation of the agreement and the advancement of the peace process."
Netanyahu and the Israeli govenment expressed satisfaction at the PNC vote to change the charter; they did not--and have not--expressed satisfaction at the PNC's changing of the charter, because the PNC hasn't changed it! I refuse to believe that you cannot see the difference.

"the vote to revoke those clauses in the Palestinian charter calling for the destruction of the state of Israel"

This clearly says that the vote was on the revocation of the clauses calling for the destruction of Israel. Not "the vote to change the charter to revoke the clauses" but "the vote to revoke the clauses". Can you not see the difference?

"The prime minister said that his government would continue to insist with the same firmness on the fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments"

So here the Prime Minister says that the Israelis will continue to pressure the Palestinians to fulfill their other commitments. Not "fulfillment of this Palestinian commitment" but "fulfillment of the other Palestinian commitments". Can you not see the difference?

These two phrases alone show that Netanyahu (a Likud politician, by the way) accepted that the PLO had indeed changed its charter. Clinton also agreed that the PLO had changed its charter. In fact even the right wing Israelis vary rarely refer to it anymore and consider it politically irrelevant. The fact remains that the both the Israeli Government and the Palestinians (not to mention the US Government) consider it as having been amended to the satisfaction of all parties.

Surely you are not a right-wing supporter? They are after all the only ones claiming that the charter was never amended.

You evidence a 13 year 5th grade school book as an example of Israeli policy toward Palestinians and Palestinian statehood, and then say, "And yet a 35 or so year old 'coat of arms' is an accurate representation of current Palestinian policy?" You've not shown that a 13 year old elementary school book reflects current Israeli policy. I doubt it did then, and I doubt it does now, and I'm fairly certain that you agree with me. And the PLO emblem--and the emblem is a map--that Arafat and much of the Palestiniann leadership endorse (many still wear it on their sleeves!) does reflect a significant base of their policy, or else they would have repudiated it and/or gotten rid of it.

Then you falsely call me a hypocrite.

And that is why I call you a hypocrite! You claim that an old text book does not constitute current official Isreali policy, then immediately say that an even older 'coat of arms' does consitute official Palestinian policy! In fact I believe neither is true. That is why I am not a hypocrite. But let's consider your next statement:

"or else they would have repudiated it and/or gotten rid of it"

Would you agree that Israel is a Jews-only state that does not consider non-Jews to be Israeli? Of course you don't. You can't even admit that Israel practices apartheid policies. So why then does the Israeli flag have a Star of David on it? If Israel is not an exclusively Jewish nation, why haven't they removed the Star of David from their flag?

Do you see where I am heading with this? Let me spell it out for you: The Israeli flag is a symbol of the nation that has been a part of it's charatcer from the very beginning. So has the PLO 'coat of arms' for the Palestinian people. Why should the Palestinians give up symbols of their national identity if Israel does not do so?

Then you say, "My "purported" truth comes directly from the Israeli Supreme Court, pro-Israeli websites and other undeniably unbiased sources." That's also incorrect. As has been pointed out numerous times, your purported truth (which remains incorrect) comes from your own misinterpretations of the sources you mention.

Not at all. I quoted extensively from those sources to show that I was not deviating from what those sources have said. Have you quoted a single source? No. Have you even linked to a single source? No. Therefore your argument is based solely on your own assertions that you must admit are biased in favour of Israel.

Have you conceded even a single point when proven wrong? No. But I have (if you go back through the messages you will see one titled "A partial concession"). I am arguing from what I consider (and from some of the responses on this thread, what other people consider), to be a sound logical base, with supporting evidence to back up my assertions. Can you say the same thing? No.

Then you challenge me to post links, when the very links you've posted have already been used to disprove your inaccurate assertions. If you want more evidence to further disprove your points, read--or, perhaps I should say, read accurately--the links you've already posted. For the most part, they're fine.

No they haven't at all. In fact you have barely presented an argument, sticking mainly to unfounded assertions. For instance, when I posted the information from the Law Professor on the Supreme Court Decision, you quoted back a single section that made it appear that the court had ruled in such a way as to rid Israel of anti-Palestinian descrimination in land allocation.

I therefore was forced to quote back another section that clearly showed that the ruling did no such thing. It merely stated that the practice was illegal, but then left it up to the Government to decide whether or not the practice should be stopped. The same Government that practises the descrimination in the first place. Are going to tell me that this Government will suddenly have a change of heart? I think not.


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 10:37 PM (ET)
Reply to post #140
141. You fooled me. I realy did think you were being serious.
About the PLO Charter: They voted to change it. But they didn't change it. If you don't believe me, go read the charter. The parts in question are still there, unamended. Political bodies vote on measures all the time: until such measures are implemented, they have not been carried out. The Palestinian assembly in question did not carry out the measure--to change the PLO charter--that they voted on.

Again, a 13-year-old school book does not constitute official Israeli policy. It is probably not even still in use, and you have presented no evidence that the text book in question is an official Israeli government text. It might have been privately published by radicals. And as I've mentioned several times, the PLO emblem is still used quite frequently, including by Arafat. This shows that Arafat and many other Palestinians who subscribe to the emblem and its map do not accept Israel's right to exist. I cannot believe that someone intelligent enough to type on a computer keyboard cannot see the difference. Then you make the absurd comparison between the Israeli flag's Star of David and the PLO's emblem. That comparison is so silly I think you are trying to be funny, but just in case: symbols like the Star of David do not connotate geographic extinction; the PLO's symbol, which negates the presense of Israel, does.

Then you mention the websites you quoted from quite extensively. You did indeed present evidence, but the evidence you presented contradicted your claims. This has been explained several times. I do not need to present more evidence to counter inaccurate claims, because the evidence you've already presented has already refuted the claims for me. I see no reason to exert effort to further disprove your claims: they are incorrect enough already. I would prefer to let them lie in peace.

Again, I thought you were being serious. I realize now that I was mistaken.

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Apr-11-02, 01:21 AM (ET)
Reply to post #141
145. I was, and you a fooling yourself.
About the PLO Charter: They voted to change it. But they didn't change it. If you don't believe me, go read the charter. The parts in question are still there, unamended. Political bodies vote on measures all the time: until such measures are implemented, they have not been carried out. The Palestinian assembly in question did not carry out the measure--to change the PLO charter--that they voted on.

I am always willing to concede when I have been proven wrong (unlike some people I could point to), so can you supply a link? Until you do I will just have to go with what I have already found, which states that Netanyahu accepted that the PA had fulfilled its obligation under the peace accord.

Again, a 13-year-old school book does not constitute official Israeli policy. It is probably not even still in use, and you have presented no evidence that the text book in question is an official Israeli government text. It might have been privately published by radicals. And as I've mentioned several times, the PLO emblem is still used quite frequently, including by Arafat. This shows that Arafat and many other Palestinians who subscribe to the emblem and its map do not accept Israel's right to exist. I cannot believe that someone intelligent enough to type on a computer keyboard cannot see the difference. Then you make the absurd comparison between the Israeli flag's Star of David and the PLO's emblem. That comparison is so silly I think you are trying to be funny, but just in case: symbols like the Star of David do not connotate geographic extinction; the PLO's symbol, which negates the presense of Israel, does.

Deny it all you want, but the two accusations are the same thing. If you refuse to accept that on old map in a school text book is any indication of current official policy, then you also have to accept that the existance of an old map in a PLO 'coat of arms' does not necessarily constitute PLO policy. To prove that assertion, you would need to find supporting evidence. All the evidence I have seen contradicts that assertion, so I can not accept it as being true.

The map (in this particualarly un-maplike form) does not constitute official PLO policy. And is therefore just a legacy of a by-gone age. Much like the Star of David on the Israeli flag (unless you are going to insist that Israel is a Jews-only state).

Then you mention the websites you quoted from quite extensively. You did indeed present evidence, but the evidence you presented contradicted your claims. This has been explained several times. I do not need to present more evidence to counter inaccurate claims, because the evidence you've already presented has already refuted the claims for me. I see no reason to exert effort to further disprove your claims: they are incorrect enough already. I would prefer to let them lie in peace.

Get real! I can not believe you honestly think you have refuted a single one of those claims. The only thing I can think that does not involve the words 'total idiot' is that you must be some form of propagandist that is desperately trying to plug the holes in the dyke. The Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the Israeli Government was practicisng descriminatory policies. Then it proceeded to leave it up to the Government to decide whether or not to stop doing so. It is clear as a bell in the quotes I posted. In fact if you want, I will go to the Supreme Court website and get the actual text of the decision! (And yes I do have it bookmarked) If this is your level of intellectual honesty on such simple issues, I will never trust a single thing you ever post.

By the way, did you know that between Decemeber 9, 1987 and January 31, 2002 in the Occupied Territories and Israel combined there were 454 Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians? During the same period, in the same areas, there were 2,166 Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis.

That is a ratio of nearly 5 Palestinian civilian deaths to every Israeli civilian death.

source: http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Total_Casualties.asp

Can you remind me who the 'vicious terrorists' are again?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-11-02, 08:24 AM (ET)
Reply to post #145
146. I do not believe you subscribe to the logic and positions you argue.
For refutation of all of your points, which I do not believe you have made in earnest, refer to my previous posts.
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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-11-02, 11:47 AM (ET)
Reply to post #146
150. You don't believe anything that is not official Israeli spin
For a refutation of your refutation refer to my previous replies to your previous posts.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Time to let this thread die, so I will take a page out of Israels policy book, declare a unilateral settlement, and be on my way!


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-11-02, 11:36 AM (ET)
Reply to post #133
149. I haven't seen links or substantiatory evidence from....
Jem either....hmmmmm

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-11-02, 11:32 AM (ET)
Reply to post #127
148. DA_NZ....
I have to applaud your references and your ability to support your argument with FACTS, but it seems to me that you will not sway Jem's views...it's trying to argue with a brick wall...I do admire your research capibilities...and I would hate to argue with you!!!! Job well done


Tony

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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cap (1247 posts) Click to EMail cap Click to send private message to cap Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:51 AM (ET)
Reply to post #58
63. Algeria is not a democracy at all
Algeria is run by a military government that invalidated a popular election. This popular election would have put an Islamist government into power. That is why there is a lot of violence. The government troops are trying to put down a rebellion by Islamist guerrilas. The routes from the Mediterranean to the Sahara are almost closed from the violence.
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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:52 AM (ET)
Reply to post #63
65. My mistake on that one...
thanks for the clarification....

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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ad_jameson (210 posts) Click to EMail ad_jameson Click to send private message to ad_jameson Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 12:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #33
88. Here he goes again...
to paraphrase, Israel goooooooood, Palestinians baaaaaaad
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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 12:50 PM (ET)
Reply to post #88
94. Please.
I've never said anything of the sort that would corroborate your false paraphrase.
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ad_jameson (210 posts) Click to EMail ad_jameson Click to send private message to ad_jameson Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-11-02, 01:44 PM (ET)
Reply to post #94
152. See above
I can guess your response before you post it. That's how predictable you are.
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tonylove2002 (388 posts) Click to EMail tonylove2002 Click to send private message to tonylove2002 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 09:01 AM (ET)
Reply to post #26
57. jem note....
you and I have disagreed in the past....but I agree with you now....it is time for both sides to be genuine and "give" each other peace.....this situation has to stop...innocent people....not innocent israelis...not innocent palestinians...but innocent PEOPLE are dying....for fucking nothing!!!! I'm sick of it...why can't cooler heads prevail! SEND IN THE U.N.!

Vini...Vidi...Vici!

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kamtsa (54 posts) Click to EMail kamtsa Click to send private message to kamtsa Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:18 AM (ET)
Reply to post #14
20. Do your best
This is just another incident in the war for the destruction of Israel that started 50 years ago. For the Israelis, it is like living with cancer, you do your best and go on. The bottom line is not that bad, Israel is a modern and flourishing democracy, the only one in that region of the world.
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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:28 AM (ET)
Reply to post #20
25. No it's not
Israel is a racist apartheid nation that treats Israeli Arabs as second class citizens.

This paper was written before the latest events and the violence that erupted between Jews and Arabs in Israel proper. While the tone by which I ended the article might seem out of place, I remain convinced that only full equality to the Arabs citizens of Israel will ensure the stability and strength of Israeli society. Interestingly, this position seemed to be shared by the Shabak, Israeli internal security forces. In interview held on October 14th in Israeli television - that is after the internal violence erupted - Ami Ayalon, former head of the Shabak revealed that his organization has recommended to grant full equality to Israeli Arabs, and that he believes that this should be done immediately. I am convinced that both moral and pragmatic reasons require the strengthening of the democratic aspects of Israeli society in line with the above analysis of Qaadan.
Dr. Alexandre Kedar, Law School, Haifa University, March 2000
http://lawatch.haifa.ac.il/eng/select/march_00.html


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:36 AM (ET)
Reply to post #25
27. Please.
Israel, even if to some degree a racist and apartheid state (which is highly debatable), is by far the least racist and apartheid state in the Middle East. Israel's claims to democracy are far, far more legitimate than any other country's in the region. This sniping at Israel's alleged democratic imperfections, especially now, when very rarely (if ever) in these forums are the thug countries of the Middle East remotely taken to task in a similar manner, has become exceptionally tired and transparent.
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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:54 AM (ET)
Reply to post #27
32. Do you accuse the Israeli Supreme Court of being Palestinian propagandists?
Israel, even if to some degree a racist and apartheid state (which is highly debatable)

No, it is not debatable at all!!!! The Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the Israeli Government is discriminating against Palestinians, and then allowed such descrimination to continue!

It is irrelevent what other Middle East states do, as they are not Israel, nor are they 'Palestine' (qouted as this nation does not yet exist).

Is it ok for America to torture people because other nations torture people? Is it justified for America to incarcerate people without charges because other countries incarcerate poeple without charges?

That is a lame defence of Israeli policy, and could lead to it being said it is ok for Israel to commit genocide because other nations have commited genocide. Is that what you want from Israel?


De omnibus est dubitandum. (Everything should be questioned) - René Descartes

A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy. - Benjamin Disraeli

The Devil's Advocate

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jem note Donating Member (1078 posts) Click to EMail jem%20note Click to send private message to jem%20note Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 01:59 AM (ET)
Reply to post #32
34. No.
Does the Israeli Supreme Court say Israel is an apartheid state? (At least the Israeli Supreme Court is allowed to criticize the government--you won't find such judgments passed in any of the other Arab states, the same states who treat Palestinians way, way worse than the situation in Israel.)

Discrimination does not automatically constitute apartheid.

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Devils Advocate NZ (553 posts) Click to EMail Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to send private message to Devils%20Advocate%20NZ Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Apr-10-02, 02:18 AM (ET)
Reply to post #34
39. Yes
Does the Israeli Supreme Court say Israel is an apartheid state? (At least the Israeli Supreme Court is allowed to criticize the government--you won't find such judgments passed in any of the other Arab states, the same states who treat Palestinians way, way worse than the situation in Israel.)

As I said, what other states do is irrelevant. We