"Israel Acknowledges Mistake in Killing of Five Palestinian Children"

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texasleo (2294 posts) Dec-20-01, 05:45 AM (ET) "Israel Acknowledges Mistake in Killing of Five Palestinian Children" http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAPEMGEGVC.html JERUSALEM (AP) - The Israeli military acknowledged Thursday that its troops made a "professional mistake" when they planted a bomb that killed five Palestinian school children in the Gaza Strip. Several officers will be reprimanded, the military said in a statement. In the Nov. 22 incident, five children, ranging in age from 7 to 14, were killed when they inadvertently set off the bomb while on their way to school in the Khan Younis refugee camp. The army acknowledged shortly after the explosion that it had planted a bomb in a sandbagged position from which Palestinian militants fired at Jewish settlements. Presenting the findings of its investigation, the army said Thursday that "the incident was an operational mishap, whose result was grave and saddening." -----------more----------------------------   Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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Subject     Author     Message Date     ID    I'd like to know what "reprimand" here means. J B Dec-20-01 1    Do you know this for a fact? Gussie 12/20/2001 6        What part of "I would like to know" implies that?... J B 12/20/2001 24            You're familiar with the level of investigation? MikeGalos 12/20/2001 26                A Palestinian life is worth 1/3 of a US cent? Karmadillo 12/21/2001 33                    Some interesting editorial comments MikeGalos 12/21/2001 34                        Sabra and Shatilla? Not odd at all. Karmadillo 12/21/2001 35                            Sabra and Shatila MikeGalos 12/22/2001 41                                There are, of course, other examples. Qibya and Karmadillo 12/22/2001 45                                    The King David Hotel? MikeGalos 12/22/2001 48                                        Again, in the context of this thread, Karmadillo 12/23/2001 54                                            Punished by the Israeli Judicial System? MikeGalos 12/23/2001 56                                                diversion Aidoneus 12/23/2001 58                                                    What is YOUR point about the King David Hotel, anyway? Gussie 12/23/2001 59                                                        my, my... Aidoneus 12/23/2001 69                                                        To Gussie, re: Aidoneus Karmadillo 12/23/2001 74                                                    The King David incident MikeGalos 12/23/2001 62                                                        Hi Mike! I was responding to Aidoneus. Gussie 12/23/2001 65                                                            Hi Gussie MikeGalos 12/23/2001 67                                            A different kind of counter example MikeGalos 12/23/2001 70                                                Interesting editorial comment, Mike Karmadillo 12/23/2001 71                                                    Other incidents MikeGalos 12/23/2001 72                        Perhaps you will believe Israel's press. No? Ha'aretz too liberal? IndianaGreen 12/23/2001 81  Mistakes were made; stern words will be used gratuitous Dec-20-01 2    I guess you have also served in the IDF. Gussie 12/20/2001 7        No, Gussie, I haven't served in the IDF gratuitous 12/20/2001 31            Choice of wording MikeGalos 12/21/2001 32  One Mistake MikeGalos Dec-20-01 3    Some Simple Things to Think About The Magistrate 12/20/2001 4        Interesting post! Gussie 12/20/2001 5            Indeed, Sir The Magistrate 12/20/2001 8                Well spoken, Sir! Gussie 12/20/2001 10                    Please, Sir The Magistrate 12/20/2001 12                        Thank you, Comrade. Gussie 12/20/2001 16                    My tin foil hat MikeGalos 12/20/2001 15                        MikeGalos - you are my new Guru. Gussie 12/20/2001 17                            Checking the fit of the tin foil hat MikeGalos 12/20/2001 21                                There was no intelligence failure in 1973 IndianaGreen 12/22/2001 47                                    Of course... MikeGalos 12/22/2001 49                                        The "intelligence failure" was pure Likud propaganda IndianaGreen 12/23/2001 52                                            Ah MikeGalos 12/23/2001 60                                                you distort words, just like you distort the truth IndianaGreen 12/23/2001 73                                                    Mindless rhetoric MikeGalos 12/23/2001 75                                                        Go parrot the Israeli propaganda to someone else IndianaGreen 12/23/2001 78                                                            And while you believe... MikeGalos 12/23/2001 79                                                                Now you are speaking as the true propagandist that you are IndianaGreen 12/23/2001 80        Smarter strategy SOS 12/20/2001 20            Congratulations, Sir The Magistrate 12/22/2001 37    When the PLO or HAMAS kills Israeli children... Gussie 12/20/2001 9        Your both on each other for making the same assumptions Canada _AKA America Jr 12/20/2001 13            Why is it MikeGalos 12/20/2001 19        One Single Palestinian MikeGalos 12/20/2001 22  I wonder... MikeGalos Dec-20-01 11  peace links harrie Dec-20-01 14    Thanks, Harrie! Gussie 12/20/2001 18        Too Much Leaning To Israel leave_no_millionaire_behind 12/20/2001 23            Let's see MikeGalos 12/20/2001 25                Mike... Lurking Dem 12/20/2001 27                    Fascinating and depressing MikeGalos 12/20/2001 28                        Israel miamiblues 12/20/2001 29                            Or MikeGalos 12/20/2001 30                            Palestine YANG 12/22/2001 38                            martin luther king, jr ms_splash 12/22/2001 39                                I'm not sure how far all this x=y is getting us, but Karmadillo 12/22/2001 40                                    King MikeGalos 12/22/2001 43                                        Let me refresh your memory with one incredibly relevant example Karmadillo 12/22/2001 44                                            I doubt MikeGalos 12/22/2001 46                                                Well, if he were asked, Karmadillo 12/22/2001 50                                                    Interesting MikeGalos 12/22/2001 51                                                        Interesting only because you asked, Mike. Karmadillo 12/23/2001 53                                                            I hope... MikeGalos 12/23/2001 64                                                                I think we've sufficiently run this one into the ground, but Karmadillo 12/23/2001 76                                                                    Agree MikeGalos 12/23/2001 77                Learning, Mike leave_no_millionaire_behind 12/21/2001 36                    Learning MikeGalos 12/22/2001 42                        Mike.... Cappurr 12/23/2001 55                            Honest Answers MikeGalos 12/23/2001 57                    What is this powerful Jewish lobby? Gussie 12/23/2001 61                        Because MikeGalos 12/23/2001 63                            Yeah! Don't ruin the world domination plan, man! Gussie 12/23/2001 66                                and MikeGalos 12/23/2001 68

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J B (515 posts) Dec-20-01, 10:23 AM (ET) 1. "I'd like to know what "reprimand" here means." If it means that they have nasty things said on their military resume, and get promoted once the hoopla dies down, then it's in the same league as Arafat not arresting Hamas terrorists.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:34 PM (ET) Reply to post #1 6. "Do you know this for a fact?" Have you served in the IDF? "Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster?" "Either way, man. Just so it swings!" Stan Freeberg's United States of America   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

J B (515 posts) Dec-20-01, 07:46 PM (ET) Reply to post #6 24. "What part of "I would like to know" implies that?..." No, I haven't served in the IDF. However, I am familiar with the extremely low rate of investigations into shootings of Palestinians that has taken place since the Temple Mount visit by Ariel Sharon. This has created some degree of cynicism in me regarding IDF punishment of such mistakes (and indeed of intentional shooting of civilians).   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 08:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #24 26. "You're familiar with the level of investigation?" Really. Cool. I'd love to see the information on the "extremely low rate of investigations into shootings of Palestinians that has taken place since the Temple Mount visit by Ariel Sharon" Do you have any facts you could offer? I'd love to see some. Preferably with both before and after stats to show the change. Some good ones would be: Number of unsolved cases Number of trials Manpower and budget figures in the investigative groups Percent of prosecutions resulting in conviction Percent or prosecutions resulting in acquittal Of the convictions, what percent were convictions of which crimes Of the acquittals, what percent were due to self defense Of those, in what percent were the facts contested Seriously, if you have facts on this, please post them.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-21-01, 00:42 AM (ET) Reply to post #26 33. "A Palestinian life is worth 1/3 of a US cent?" I'm afraid I don't have the time or resources to provide all of the information you're asking for, but here are three examples from a brief search. I think all of them predate the Temple Mount visit and they include prosecutions of soldiers and settlers, but I imagine they are fairly representative of what goes on. The outcomes are not very flattering to the Israeli justice system and I hope they are not indicative of what will happen regarding the death of the five Palestinian children. The first one deals with the consequences for Israelis involved in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. The last two deal with more "run of the mill" murders. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0619-03.htm KEANE: The legacy of Sabra and Shatila hasn't damaged the careers of the central characters. Elie Hobeika became a minister for refugees in post war Lebanon. General Amos Yuron, the Israeli Commander outside the camps, is now Director General of Israel's Defence Ministry, and earlier this year Ariel Sharon became Prime Minister of Israel. The massacre seemed long forgotten when Mr Sharon arrived at the White House. GEORGE BUSH: Welcome Mr Prime Minister. Glad you're here. SHARON: Thank you. <edit> KEANE: Ariel Sharon said recently he regretted the tragedy of Sabra and Shatila, but asked if he would apologise he replied "To apologise for what?" http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,426101,00.html A Jewish settler who clubbed a Palestinian child to death with a rifle butt was sentenced to six months' community service yesterday in a decision denounced as an outrage by human rights organisations. The Jerusalem district court said it decided not to jail Nachum Korman for the killing of 11-year-old Hilmi Shusha four years ago because he had only been convicted of manslaughter by negligence, and had served eight months in prison. It fined him 70,000 shekels (about £11,600). The sentence handed down by the Jerusalem district court yesterday is especially suspect because it was determined by the same judge, Ruth Or, who acquitted Korman at his original trial after rejecting evidence from witnesses and the state pathologist. <edit> Meanwhile, the supreme court is considering the release of another Jewish settler, Yoram Skolnik, who was convicted in 1993 of shooting dead a Palestinian who lay on the ground with his hands and legs bound. Israel's former president, Ezer Weizman, granted Skolnik two reductions on his life term, and the parole board has recommended his early release for good behaviour. http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0197/9701022.htm The second item concerns the Nov. 16 conviction by an Israeli military court of four Israeli soldiers for killing an 18-year-old West Bank Palestinian passerby at a roadblock. The soldiers were members of the elite “Cherry” unit, which uses covert tactics to ambush, and kill, what they call Palestinian terrorists. The unit’s activities have been reported many times before in the Israeli press. In one case, disguised as Arabs, Cherry unit soldiers attended a soccer game, surrounded one of the players on their list and, after they had knocked him to the ground, shot him dead before the spectators. In another case they loitered outside the door of a house until someone knocked and was admitted. Then, before the door could be closed, they rushed inside, guns blazing, killing or wounding the occupants. In other cases they have walked up to parked cars and, wordlessly, shot the occupants to death. No search warrant, no statement of charges, no arrest. Just killings of those they suspected were “terrorists,” and anyone who happened to be with them. In any other country “Cherry” would be called a death squad. In the Israel Defense Forces it is “an elite unit.” In the current case, the convicted soldiers had set up a nighttime roadblock, beckoned a stopped driver to come forward, flashed a truck-mounted searchlight in his eyes when he did, and then fired a burst of machine gun fire through his windshield. Miraculously the driver, Bilal Amli, lived to testify, but his 18-year-old companion in the front seat, Iyad Mahmoud Badran, was killed. Neither of the automobile’s occupants was suspected of anything. They just happened to be there. For the death of Mr. Badran, the 1,251st Palestinian killed by Israeli soldiers since December 1987 according to the Washington Post’s Jerusalem correspondent, the four death squad members were sentenced to pay one agora, which is a nonexistent coin worth one hundredth of a shekel, which means it is worth about a third of a U.S. cent. The sentence seemed inexplicable to Palestinian and Israeli human rights workers alike. “It means the government wants to show how much a Palestinian person’s life is worth,” ventured Bassam Eid, founder of the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group. “The sentence is so ridiculous I don’t know what to say,” commented Shirly Eran of the Israeli B’tselem human rights watchdog group. “If they are not guilty, they should be found not guilty. And if they are guilty, why are they fined an agora?”   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-21-01, 01:37 AM (ET) Reply to post #33 34. "Some interesting editorial comments" I'll check the links to see if there's any data behind the rhetoric. (Personally, I dislike the Likud party but that's another issue) Unfortunately, this doesn't answer the question about whether they're prosecuted or if invstigations aren't done. This mostly deals with a minimal fine being issued. (This is actually not an uncommon practice in British style courts like the Israeli one, and usually signifies that the defendant was found guilty of technically violating the law but the circumstances overwhelm the actual law. In the US we would usually just issue time served, instead. As for the Sabra and Shatila massacres, odd that they're used here since they were done by Lebanese Christian Arabs and not by Israelis.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-21-01, 08:38 PM (ET) Reply to post #34 35. "Sabra and Shatilla? Not odd at all." The evidence against Sharon appears convincing. However, even though your views appear a little one sided (maybe mine are, too), you seem very well informed about Middle East issues. If you've decided to believe Israel and Sharon do not share in the responsibility for the massacre, I doubt there's anything I can write or link to that would convince you to change your mind. As I noted, my links in the previous post were not meant to be directly relevant to the quality of investigations after the Temple Mount visit. They do paint a portrait of an Israeli judicial system that appears less than enthused in seeing justice done for wrongs committed against Palestinians and indicate little will be done should such investigations take place. I'm hardly an expert in this area, so if these rulings are aberrations in an otherwise exemplary system, please let me know.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 09:55 PM (ET) Reply to post #35 41. "Sabra and Shatila" I wouldn't say that there wasn't complicity and shared responsibility. What I find significant is that the worst example, the one that everybody always brings up is, at worst, a shared guilt.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:12 PM (ET) Reply to post #41 45. "There are, of course, other examples. Qibya and" and the King David Hotel come immediately to mind, but I brought up Sabra and Shatila simply to show how little those involved suffered for their actions. Not to belabor the point, but Sharon seems to have made out fairly well for himself since then despite his responsibility (shared, but fairly horrific, nevertheless) for the massacre. This, along with the outcomes in the other cited examples, would appear to indicate those responsible for the death of the five children and those responsible for other Palestinians killed since Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount may not have as much to fear as one might hope.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:35 PM (ET) Reply to post #45 48. "The King David Hotel?" LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-01 AT 11:37 PM (ET) The King David Hotel incident involved blowing up British military and intellegence headquarters as a response to mass arrests by the intellegence organization based there. The Irgun gave the British three separate phone warnings to evacuate the building, one directly, one through the French Embassy and one through the Palestine Post newspaper. The British response was "We don't take orders from the Jews". The officers who took the warning seriously left the building and survived. The British denied the phone calls until the facts came out in 1979 in Parliament. Oh, and the Jewish National Council condemned the bombing. That's a worst case example? Care to list a pro-Palestinian bombing that was publically comdemned? How about one with multiple warning calls? How about one on an actual military target?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-23-01, 00:33 AM (ET) Reply to post #48 54. "Again, in the context of this thread," what happened to the perpetrators of the King David Hotel attack? Punished by the Israeli judicial system? Or did one of them become Prime Minister, instead? I wasn't trying to determine which example of Israeli violence was the worst case. Remember, we're trying to guess whether those guilty of killing Palestinians will be subjected to an intense investigation. As we don't have detailed direct evidence of what's happening (I don't have it, and as far as I can tell, no one has posted it here), I'm simply trying to determine what might happen based on how other incidents of violence against Palestinians and others have been dealt with in the past. Based on the examples I've cited and the lack of any counter examples being posted, I'm fairly pessimistic.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:19 AM (ET) Reply to post #54 56. "Punished by the Israeli Judicial System?" How could they be, the King David Hotel bombing was in 1946. Israel didn't exist until 1948. There wasn't much of a judicial system two years before there was a government. So how has the PA judicial system done against Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Or PLA or Black September, or, or, or...   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Aidoneus (319 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:31 AM (ET) Reply to post #56 58. "diversion" You're avoiding the point there. ... the King David Hotel was attacked by Israeli terrorists. "They gave warning"... it was still attacked. Were the perpetrators punished? No, the leader of them became Prime Minister. ... how does that series of facts not justify the skepticism given with regards to the punishment of the murder of 5 children by the Israeli military? Igni Natura Renovatur Integra   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:53 AM (ET) Reply to post #58 59. "What is YOUR point about the King David Hotel, anyway?" YES the Irgun blew it up. Yes Begin became Prime Minister. It bears no relation to whatever you are carrying on about. You have no inside knowledge of how the IDF is run. Why do you CARE so passionately, anyway? There are a hundred other places in the world were there are problems, why do you HARP on Israel? There are much worse problems in other parts of the world. Your emphasis on Israel when you seem to have no connection to the country makes me think you have a serious problem with JEWS and this is how you are working it out.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Aidoneus (319 posts) Dec-23-01, 03:10 AM (ET) Reply to post #59 69. "my, my..." Out of any possible response, your false assuption at the end is about as far from the truth as you could have possibly managed to be. If I thought that an opinion different than your own mattered to you, I might explain the obvious relevence by the reference... but, since I receive an attack in response to a non-attacking statement, I feel no need to do so. Disagreeing with wrong actions--it matters not WHO does the actions--has nothing to do with your fantasies of antisemetism. I now see that any disagreements with several violent actions by your side must amount to the false assumption of a blanket complete hatred of all who call themselves by the same title. ... such is the type of discussion I have no interest in partaking in again. Igni Natura Renovatur Integra   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-23-01, 11:38 AM (ET) Reply to post #59 74. "To Gussie, re: Aidoneus" From what I remember of postings from Aidoneus on other topics, they seem to me to exhibit a concern for injustice in general, not just in Israel. It is unfair to the writer individually and to DU in general to imply anti-semitism simply for making a response criticizing Israel (a nation state) in a thread dealing with five Palestinian children who died as a result of Israeli actions. Obviously the subject matter almost guarantees a negative response about Israeli actions. I've learned a lot reading comments from people whose positions I may not necessarily agree with (Mike, for example, and I remember appreciating your postings in a prior thread that expressed frustration about the endless conflict in the region). You might find the same thing true if you can look beyond labels to the individual comment/argument. By the way, I haven't read Lerner's The Socialism of Fools, but I found the following article on the Tikkun website. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking someone who would write these words would think twice before writing what you wrote to Aidoneus: http://www.tikkun.org/community/index.cfm/action/community/article/3.html We are firmly committed to the survival of the State of Israel and to the best interests of the Jewish people, as well as to the best interests of the Palestinian people. That is one of the important reasons we want to end the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, create a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel, let Jerusalem become the capital of both states with unimpeded access of each community to their holy sites, and create an internationally funded program of generous reparations for resettlement of Palestnians. But we know that the way to achieve peace and reconciliation cannot be solely or even primarily through political steps, unless they are conjoined with a powerful movement to change the hearts and minds of people in the area, and their support communities around the world. For that reason, our primary goal is to develop an ethos of open-heartedness and generosity in the part of Israeli and Palestinian communities, and in Jewish, Christian and Muslim communities as well. more...   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:03 AM (ET) Reply to post #58 62. "The King David incident" was about whether the Israeli Judicial System had a history of ignoring attacks against refugees. The King David bombing was not brought up by me, I answered a claim that it was an example of the failure of the Israeli Judicial System. The Israeli Judicial System could not have responded to it. It happened before there was an Israeli Judicial System. The concept of jurisdiction applies. You can't convict someone of a crime that happened in somebody else's jurisdiction. (Contrary to some of our current US administration's wishes) Britain could have prosecuted. Israel could not. It was a violation of British law. It was not a violation of Israeli law because there wouldn't be such a thing as Israeli law for another two years.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:26 AM (ET) Reply to post #62 65. "Hi Mike! I was responding to Aidoneus." because I didn't see how the King David Hotel figured into the accidental killing of 5 children. I spent the day reading Michael Lerner's The Socialism of Fools: Antisemitism on the left and am somewhat riled up now. I just wish I was as knowledgeable as you are. Bad, bad brain, I guess.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:35 AM (ET) Reply to post #65 67. "Hi Gussie" I was responding to Aidoneus as well. Amazing how much bad information people seem to have. A little history goes a long way as do some actual facts. (like the text of the UN resolutions people are so used to citing but not quoting). Facts are hard to argue against and the facts are mostly on Israel's side. BTW: Middle East politics was my major for a long time until software lured me away from my potential future as a low level State Department bureaucrat. I guess I'm still kind of a semi-pro at this so it'd be embarassing if I didn't know at least a little more than most people.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 03:49 AM (ET) Reply to post #54 70. "A different kind of counter example" Raed Karmi was convicted in a PA court of participating in the kidnapping and execution style murders of two Israelis eating lunch in a restaurant in Tulkarem in the West Bank. His reason for killing them was that since they were Israeli and in Tulkarem, they must be Israeli Special Forces. Actually, they ran a restaurant and were in town buying supplies. He was released by the PA government after serving four MONTHS for the kidnappings and murders and proceded to kill another four Israelis. As of today, he's not in jail for those killings and is Militia Chief for Tulkarem in the PA government. He's also on Israel's most wanted list. That's not a case of not being punished for an attack 50 years earlier under another government, the murder of the two restaurant owners was in January. That may not be the counter example you're looking for but I don't recall any statements of condemnation of Karmi from the PA or even his losing his militia chief position.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-23-01, 10:48 AM (ET) Reply to post #70 71. "Interesting editorial comment, Mike" You didn't include a link, so I found this. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2001/09/06/mideast.htm <edit> "However, Karmi said he did not take up arms until after the army shot and killed Thabet Thabet, the local Tulkarem leader of Arafat's Fatah movement, last Dec. 31. Israel claimed that Thabet had organized deadly shooting attacks. In response, Karmi said, he and his gunmen carried out the abduction and execution-style shooting of two young Israeli restaurateurs who visited Tulkarem in January to buy pots and plants for their sushi restaurant in Tel Aviv. The group Karmi leads in Tulkarem, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, is a band of Palestinian gunmen who emerged after the Palestinian uprising began last September. Most of the gunmen are also members of Arafat's Fatah faction. Since the Mideast fighting erupted, Israel has killed more than 50 Palestinians in raids targeting suspected militants accused of involvement in bombings and shootings. However, about 15 of those killed were not the intended targets. They include several women and children." more... I didn't see any articles about the conviction and release or the death of four other Israelis, so if you have a link, please post. Thanks. If what you wrote is accurate, it does appear to be an injustice and would not reflect favorably on the administration of justice in Palestinian territories, just as the examples I cited do not reflect favorably on the administration of justice in Israeli territories. Karmi's excuse of making a mistake during a retaliatory killing would seem to hold no more water than Israel's frequent excuse of making a mistake during retaliatory killings. And regarding your King David Hotel response, all but one of the examples cited above weren't from fifty years ago and you never did respond to them. I imagine Israel could have punished the perpetrators of the King David Hotel if it had wanted to after it gained statehood if the actions had been deemed sufficiently reprehensible (nation states, Israel included, tend to take it upon themselves to do most anything ruling elites believe is in their interests--illegal settlements, torture of suspects, killing civilians etc). That Begin later became PM would appear to indicate the action wasn't considered reprehensible. Just as Sharon's actions at Qibya or Sabra and Shatila apparently weren't considered reprehensible enough to disqualify him for the same position. Again, to get back to the subject of the thread, these sorts of things tend to support a pessimistic view regarding punishment of those responsible for the killing of the five Palestinian children and investigations of those responsible for killing Palestinians since Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 11:21 AM (ET) Reply to post #71 72. "Other incidents" I did reply to Sabra and Shatila and said there was likely some Israeli complicity in the attacks but that they were done by Lebanese Christian Arabs not by Israelis. The Israeli complicity was in not babysitting the Lebanese Christian forces closely enough. If you remember the incidents they were not approved or condoned by the Israeli government and were condemned by it. I'll see if I can find the link to the other killings by Karmi. There's a lot of press on him even in the mainstream US papers, most of it sympathetic to him. Even if I can't track it down and you ignore it as rumor (and that would be perfectly OK with me, this is an area where documentation is important), he kidnapped and killed two civilians, was released by the PA in four months and is still a leader in the PA administration. Even without the other killings, there's a major injustice there.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:31 PM (ET) Reply to post #34 81. "Perhaps you will believe Israel's press. No? Ha'aretz too liberal?" It appears that the current tactic is to create enough smoke so that the American public cannot even see the criticism within Israel of Israel's policies. God forbid we ever have a real debate in this country about the Middle East! Officers blamed in deaths of 5 Gaza children By Amos Harel Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz stopped short of reprimanding officers from the Yiftach unit responsible for laying a mine that killed five Khan Yunis children last month as they were on their way to school. But Mofaz "cited" the officers for what he called "an operational failure that had grave, harsh and sorrowful results." The children, aged six to 14, were killed instantly when they found the powerful mine and apparently began tampering with it. The five, all from the al-Astal clan, were Mohammed, 14, and his brother Akram, 6; and their cousins Omer, 14, and Anis, 10, who were also brothers. The fifth boy, also a cousin, was 10-year-old Ahmed. A family member told Channel Two TV News last night that with Mofaz citing the responsible officers, the family would sue the army. <snip> MK Ran Cohen, a member of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, and a former reserve colonel in the army, said the army must be sure not to lay mines or shoot in areas where there are civilians and children. "Every deadly action near children always ends in a disgraceful, inexcusable tragedy," he said. B'Tselem said IDF policy not to take steps against soldiers who harm the innocent, sends the message to soldiers that lives are cheap. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=108648&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

gratuitous (271 posts) Dec-20-01, 10:41 AM (ET) 2. "Mistakes were made; stern words will be used" You can bet that the soldiers who booby-trapped those little kid terrorists will be spoken to directly, with no mincing of words! This "grave and saddening" "operational mishap" is most unfortunate, and those responsible will probably not be allowed to use the good china. For a week. That should teach them a lesson they won't soon forget. "Can't add my name to the fight when I'm gone, so I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here." --Phil Ochs   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:36 PM (ET) Reply to post #2 7. "I guess you have also served in the IDF." Please tell me more about how they operate.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

gratuitous (271 posts) Dec-20-01, 11:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #7 31. "No, Gussie, I haven't served in the IDF" If the U.S. government couldn't put a gun in my hands, what makes you think those pantywaists in Israel could do it? The point of my post was that in admitting they killed five kids, the strongest language they could come up with was that the outcome was "grave and saddening"? That is something I would say if the brakes went out on busload of orphans or nuns on a mountain road. Booby trapping five kids would seem to call for . . . a little more. "Can't add my name to the fight when I'm gone, so I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here." --Phil Ochs   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-21-01, 00:22 AM (ET) Reply to post #31 32. "Choice of wording" LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-01 AT 00:23 AM (ET) Amazing that this is about a choice of wording. What wording did the US use for children killed by setting off cluster bomblets in Afghanistan? What was the wording of the statement of horror and shock from the PA when children were blown up the the Sbarro in Jerusalem? Oh, wait, I don't think either of those even got "grave and saddening" although "collateral damage" may have come up in the former and I seem to recall the phrase "no one in Israel is a civilian" in the latter.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 11:05 AM (ET) 3. "One Mistake" Well, no matter how severe the punishment, that would be one more mistake admitted to than the PLO has done. And then, there's also the difference that here killing children was a mistake unlike intentionally blowing up a school bus.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

The Magistrate (124 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:21 PM (ET) Reply to post #3 4. "Some Simple Things to Think About" Arabs in Palestine, shortly after the Second World War ended, were made to pay a portion of the reparations for Germany’s crimes. Some three-quarters of a million Palestinian Arabs were put to flight from hundreds of square miles of land, to the accompaniment of several thousand killings. It was easy to do this to them. Arab Palestine’s leading politico-religious figures had taken a Hitlerite stance during the Second World War. Arabs in Palestine had, before and after the war, carried out some spectacular pogroms. The ingrained Christian confession of many Western statesmen in that day inclined them to feel a rightness about restoring a remnant Israel to the Promised Land. Zionism was a leftist cause from its inception during the Dreyfus Affair at the end of the nineteenth century. The Zionist founders of Israel created for Jews a Scandinavian style social democracy within the confines of the 1949 Armistice line. Those parts of Arab Palestine remaining outside that boundary were seized by Jordan and Egypt. Israel’s defeat in 1949 of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq, thoroughly discredited their feudal rulers. Rebellions by left nationalist officers overthrew several. When the most successful of these rebel officers, Col. Nasser in Egypt, seized the Suez Canal in 1956, leftist Israel joined the old regional colonialists, England and France, in attacking Egypt. By the end of the 1973 Ramadan War, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria had been permanently dissuaded from future use of their military forces against Israel. Israel held the remnants of Arab Palestine that Jordan and Egypt had seized for themselves in 1949, and much of the Sinai to boot. Several Arab Palestinian entities had formed over the years to fight Israel for themselves. Their operations were characterized by frankly targeting civilians, frequently civilians who were not Israeli, or even in Israel. Sometimes the killings were carried out by left radicals from Europe or Asia or Latin America. To disperse the largest such Palestinian entity, that of Mr. Arafat, Israel invaded Lebanon. After a prolonged siege of Beirut, which killed hundreds of civilians, Israel allowed evacuation of Arab Palestinians under arms to Tunisia, and withdrew its soldiers to a south Lebanon buffer north of Galilee. In the decades since Israel seized the remnants of Arab Palestine, these became a sort of servants quarters for the growing Israeli economy. So long as some small number of Arab Palestinians remain resolved to kill Israelis come what may, all Arab Palestinians will be subjected by Israel to harassment by checkpoint and flying squad, as a condition of steady employment. While Arab Palestinian attacks targeting Israeli civilians can achieve nothing but to provoke Israeli reprisals, no conceivable scheme of Israeli military policing can prevent an occasional attack by some Arab Palestinian killer succeeding.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:33 PM (ET) Reply to post #4 5. "Interesting post!" Arab rioting in the 30's resulted in England effectively closing Palestine to further Jewish immigraion from Germany at a time when Jews were desperate to find any place to go.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

The Magistrate (124 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #5 8. "Indeed, Sir" A gentleman of discernment recently noted here that the matter of Israel v. Palestine deeply divided the left. It need not be so. In fact, it is difficult to see why anyone without person or domicile directly involved should pay much attention to this quarrel at all. In the tally of human misery and injustice afflicting the planet, this matter is a mere rounding error.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:43 PM (ET) Reply to post #8 10. "Well spoken, Sir!" This topic is effectively driving Jewish Democrats out of the fold. I do not condone Israeli treatment of the Palestinians myself, but it is hard to put up with so much vicious hatred of Israel, Zionism and by default Jews on the part of people who can't even spell Israel correctly.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

The Magistrate (124 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:46 PM (ET) Reply to post #10 12. "Please, Sir" Do not allow such foolishness to alter your vote. Little actual effect is had on policy, however unpleasant the atmospherics may grow.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #12 16. "Thank you, Comrade." My only hope is with the liberals but sometimes this single issue results in extreme paranoia on my part.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:07 PM (ET) Reply to post #10 15. "My tin foil hat" This has got me thinking in ways that make me want to look in the mirror for a tin foil hat but it seems to work ... Timeline: The one Social Democratic country in the region has backing of US Liberals, the US government and the USSR government Oil rich, right wing, non-democratic countries push refugees into camps for 40 years and promote attacks against this liberal country by blaming the liberal country for their own actions A fairly massive PR campaign targeted at western liberals gets support for the same cause backed by the right wing oil countries Liberal backers in the West become split over the issue Right wing parties gain support in the West as the issue splits Western liberal parties Result: Right wing, pro-oil company governments gain power in formerly liberal countries   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:10 PM (ET) Reply to post #15 17. "MikeGalos - you are my new Guru." Please say more about this!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:55 PM (ET) Reply to post #17 21. "Checking the fit of the tin foil hat" I'm going to have to check to see how the tin foil hat fits before I go on but... Prior to the Yom Kippur war, Israel had a leftist coalition government similar to Scandinavian Social Democracy parties. The intelligence failure in 1973 which caused Israel to do so badly in the Yom Kippur war was a major factor in voting out that government for a coalition based around the right-wing Likud party. One factor in the intillegence failure was the US intelligence community holding back information on Egyptian plans that they had for over a week before the war. This information was to be shared with the Mosad as part of an intelligence swap agreement but wasn't released to Israel until a few hours before the scheduled Egyptian attack. Back to that mirror, I think this hat may be a little tight.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #21 47. "There was no intelligence failure in 1973 " Israel wanted to do a pre-emptive strike, as it did in 1967, but President Nixon threatened to withhold support if they fired the first shot. What caught Israel by surprise was not the attack itself, but the unusual speed and coordination of their foes. Nixon intervened again to stop General Sharon who had broken through the Egyptian lines at Suez and was well on his way to Cairo. Henry Kissinger was Nixon's National Security advisor.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:40 PM (ET) Reply to post #47 49. "Of course..." this totally disagrees with every document I've ever seen about this from any of the countries involved. Including the ousting of the Labor party for the intellegence failure. But if you actually have some facts to back that claim up, I'd love to see them.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-23-01, 00:07 AM (ET) Reply to post #49 52. "The "intelligence failure" was pure Likud propaganda" which apparently has taken hold on you just as Clinton's trashing of the White House and the 9/11 terrorist threat to Air Force One are now portrayed as fact instead of fiction.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:58 AM (ET) Reply to post #52 60. "Ah" So when asked for facts you do nothing but an ad hominum attack by comparing me to a Bush follower. I must assume from this that you have nothing to back up your claims except wishes on your part.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-23-01, 11:35 AM (ET) Reply to post #60 73. "you distort words, just like you distort the truth" LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-01 AT 11:44 AM (ET) I never mentioned Bush, I only mentioned Likud propaganda. Now you are playing this victim crap bit. What's next, Mr. Galos? Are you going to start whining about there being "no place for the American Jew"? Should the DU reader be made aware of the serious racial divide in Israel that exists among Jews? How about the economic chasm, which also parallels the racial divide? Should the DU reader be made aware that the American taxpayer is subsidizing the housing for the settlers living in Occupied Palestine? Should the DU reader be made aware that Israel is in violation of US law by using American-made planes to bomb Palestinian villages? Should the DU reader be reminded that if one drops a 1,000 pound bomb on a building, it will also flatten any structure within a couple of hundred yards of it? That is how our special forces were killed in a "friendly fire" incident in Afghanistan, and that is how Israel is achieving its "collateral damage", killing of civilians, with its bombing. No, Mr. Galos, I have read enough of your posts to know that there are no bounds when it comes to defending and rationalizing the killing of innocent men, women, and children. This is the problem with the Middle East blood feud in the first place! Each side can justify its acts of violence by claiming that its actions are a measured response to the actions of the other side. Each side has its chorus of supporters in the US and in the Middle East that demonizes the opposite side and gives knee-jerk support to anything Israeli or Palestinian. Each side ignores their own religious traditions and beliefs, or twist them, in order to justify the unjustifiable: the killing of innocents to promote a political agenda. If two kids are fighting for a toy, parents will usually step in and take the toy away to stop the fighting. It is time that the world steps in and takes Jerusalem away from both sides of this idiotic conflict. It is time to put an end to the bloodshed! It is time to stop feeding Israel's war machine with American arms and weapons. It is time to enforce US arms export laws when we deal with Israel as we enforce it with every foreign military sales recipient. It is time for the US to pursue a fair and balanced policy in the Israel-Palestine conflict.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 11:59 AM (ET) Reply to post #73 75. "Mindless rhetoric" No, you didn't mention Bush by name, you mentioned Bush's claims of Clinton's trashing the White House and equated my statements to those. In the concept of "Fair and Balanced", why do you ignore the fact that the US taxpayers have been providing the majority of the housing, food, jobs, education, etc. for the "palestinian" refugees for the last 53 years? Or the 2 Billion taxpayer dollars given to Egypt every year? Or is it only support money that goes to Israel that you object to? But I guess, to you, "Fair and Balanced" means question support for Israel and turn a blind eye toward support of their enemies. (And in the case of Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. totally ignoring them in the equation.)   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-23-01, 12:49 PM (ET) Reply to post #75 78. "Go parrot the Israeli propaganda to someone else" in the meantime the blood shed will continue. Sharon will destroy Israel!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:01 PM (ET) Reply to post #78 79. "And while you believe..." whatever PA press release comes out, your friends will continue to kill children in restaurants. Perhaps actually doing some homework would help you. I've presented documented and verifiable facts. I wish you'd have done the same rather than just fallen into meaningless name calling. Then, perhaps, we could have increased understanding.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (5252 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #79 80. "Now you are speaking as the true propagandist that you are" I ask all DU readers to read what I posted in this thread as well as the "The Changing Face of the Democratic Party: " thread, post#104 "5 stop defending the indefensible". Any reasonable person will quickly see that what you are alleging about my position is a clear distortion of the views I expressed. http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=427&forum=DCForumID38#104 Tactics such as the one you are engaging in are responsible for preventing the open and vigorous debate we need in this country on American policy in the Middle East. To support the status quo is to support the continuing violence in the Israel-Palestine conflict. A Jewish life has the same value as a Palestinian life, and a Palestinian life should have the same value as an American life, and an American life should have the same value regardless of race, gender, national origin, religion, or sexual orientation.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

SOS (198 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:22 PM (ET) Reply to post #4 20. "Smarter strategy" From above post: "In the decades since Israel seized the remnants of Arab Palestine, these became a sort of servants quarters for the growing Israeli economy." If Arafat had an ounce of creativity he would have called for a non-violent, permanent general strike after the Sharon "visit" to the Al-Aqsa mosque. Use the Gandhi approach. No violence, no work.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

The Magistrate (124 posts) Dec-22-01, 00:08 AM (ET) Reply to post #20 37. "Congratulations, Sir" You are a strategist after my own heart. Once the Sage wrote: An empty vessel! Is not its use in what is not there?"   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:40 PM (ET) Reply to post #3 9. "When the PLO or HAMAS kills Israeli children..." it is justified because Israel is the fascist oppressor. When Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian children, it is planned genocidal murder of the fascist oppressor. Hmmmmm I get it! The day one single Palestinian says killing Israeli civilians is WRONG is the day I'll start listening.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Canada _AKA America Jr (359 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:53 PM (ET) Reply to post #9 13. "Your both on each other for making the same assumptions" they are equally to blame. Thats it. Thats all. Thinking any different shows a tie to a particular side in this fiasco of hatred. The problem will end when the hatred does. There comes a point where it doesn't matter who threw the first salvo. Good neighbors make good fences, good fences make good neighbors Peace Bill   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:16 PM (ET) Reply to post #13 19. "Why is it" LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-01 AT 01:17 PM (ET) Why is it that justice is always given such short shrift in the cause of peace. When a child is hit out of nowhere by their sibling, it is the inattentive parent who thinks the solution is to say "you're both wrong". This doesn't solve issues but only teaches that being the oppressor is not punished any worse than being the oppressed. This results in both children learning that it is better to lash out since you get the same punishment in either case and if you strike first, you win. Unjust treatment doesn't work with children. It doesn't work with adults. It doesn't work with nations or peoples.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 05:15 PM (ET) Reply to post #9 22. "One Single Palestinian" There have been quite a few Palestinians saying that killing Israeli civilians is wrong. Unfortunately, none of the Palestinian leaders have had that courage to say it. Instead, the leaders have blamed their lack of courage on not being able to sell that position to "the street". When a Palestinian leader says it, I'll back them with all I can. I'd even be happy with one of them saying that Israel, in accordance with UN SR 242, has a right to a peaceful existance.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 12:46 PM (ET) 11. "I wonder..." ... how many US military personnel will get reprimands for setting munitions in Afghanistan that accidently get set off by children. With those cluster bomblets that look so much like food packets there have probably been a lot more than five children killed but I'm pretty sure we won't be reprimanding anybody.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

harrie (571 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:02 PM (ET) 14. "peace links" Cf: www.peacenow.org/links.html www.crossingborder.org www.mideastweb.org www.nswas.com The last is: Neve Shalom / Wahat al-Salam A village in Israel established jointly by Jews and Palestinian Arabs of Israeli citizenship and engaged in educational work for peace, equality and understanding between the two peoples. Woman in audience: "Sir, ... I'm sure you'll get the vote of every thinking man and woman in America." Adlai Stevenson II: "Thank you madame. But that won't be enough. You see, I need a majority." "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-20-01, 01:12 PM (ET) Reply to post #14 18. "Thanks, Harrie!" People forget that there are lots of Israelis who feel the same way about THEIR government as we do about ours. "Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster?" "Either way, man. Just so it swings!" Stan Freeberg's United States of America   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

leave_no_millionaire_behind (57 posts) Dec-20-01, 07:32 PM (ET) Reply to post #18 23. "Too Much Leaning To Israel" I'll defer to others here with much more knowledge of the subject. But I will say it appears to me the USA is far too much leaning toward Israel, giving it so much aid and support. Why? How is it in our interests to alianate so many millions of Arabs in so many countries by falling in behind Israel? What interests of this country does Israel serve? Wy are we solidly behind them?Many tell me it is th result of a very powerful Jewish lobby in this country. At any rate, it seems we need to examine our "tilt" in this area. Comments or knowledge from others to help me understand are appreciated.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 08:28 PM (ET) Reply to post #23 25. "Let's see" Maybe because, unlike every other country in the region, Israel is a democracy with open elections with multiple diverse parties (btw: roughly 10% of their parliament are arabs). Has universal suffrage with no restrictions based on religion, sex, or ethnicity. Has civil courts. Has trade unions. Has civil rights. Has public education. Was created by legal international process rather than a coup. Has repeatedly backed the US in military, political economic and intelligence issues. Basically, it's a pretty good model for everything we in the US claim to support; a free, democratic, socially progressive yet generally capitalist state. Your turn. Is there some reason you think we should stop supporting free, democratic states? (And, please, don't fall back on some mysterious Jewish force which secretly controls the world, it just makes you look silly)   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Lurking Dem (554 posts) Dec-20-01, 08:53 PM (ET) Reply to post #25 27. "Mike..." I posted an essay on the Editorial board and would love your comments. If I weren't heavily medicated I'd be REALLY pissed!   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 09:18 PM (ET) Reply to post #27 28. "Fascinating and depressing" Good essay. I wish I could disagree with it. I really do.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

miamiblues (54 posts) Dec-20-01, 10:53 PM (ET) Reply to post #28 29. "Israel" Zionism=racism. Full-stop.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-20-01, 10:59 PM (ET) Reply to post #29 30. "Or" if zionisim==racism then halt(Logic_Error)   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

YANG (1825 posts) Dec-22-01, 06:14 AM (ET) Reply to post #29 38. "Palestine" Palestinian Nationalism = ????? ____________________________________ "When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it... always." -Mahatma Gandhi   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

ms_splash (106 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:19 AM (ET) Reply to post #29 39. "martin luther king, jr" "Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism" http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/ml_king.html   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-22-01, 12:39 PM (ET) Reply to post #39 40. "I'm not sure how far all this x=y is getting us, but" if King were alive today, I wonder what he would say regarding the Middle East. I found this quote from your link interesting: "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country." Makes me think he would have substantial sympathy for the Palestinian cause.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 10:02 PM (ET) Reply to post #40 43. "King" I doubt that King would support a violent group that refuses to negotiate unless they are guaranteed all their demands in advance and uses bombing and gunfire as negotiation tools. If you can show me that he supported ANY groups that consider violence a reasonable tactic, please do. I don't remember any.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-22-01, 10:30 PM (ET) Reply to post #43 44. "Let me refresh your memory with one incredibly relevant example" http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/ml_king.html "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land." Unless, of course, you're claiming Israel has never considered violence a reasonable tactic.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:26 PM (ET) Reply to post #44 46. "I doubt" that King would have supported the Irgun. I don't think he had a problem with a nation state having a defensive army. That's a little different than blowing up pizza parlors. Or do you think King would be OK with killing civilian children to make points at the bargaining table?   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:42 PM (ET) Reply to post #46 50. "Well, if he were asked," he might note that violence was sometimes necessary in the pursuit of the creation of a nation state (Israel, the US, lots of other places). Then again, given the apparent addictive nature of violence (Israel, the US, lots of other places), he might not. If we are to go by his actual words in the link cited above, I'm fairly certain he wouldn't approve of Israel's attempt to create Bantustans for the Palestinians and would point out the justice of their having their own sovereign state instead of living under Israeli rule. He might even question whether Israel's army is a "defensive army" and decide it is more accurately described, regarding its actions against the Palestinians, as an army of occupation.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 11:47 PM (ET) Reply to post #50 51. "Interesting" how you now are claiming what you think he might have said. I'll let Dr. King's words, spoken when he was alive, speak for him rather than try to change who he was to fit an agenda. Oops, sorry, that would mean he supported Israel. Short of a seance, I think we should not put words in his mouth or revise history to fit an agenda. Oh, and I don't think he'd have liked comparing the real Bantustans for what was negotiated in interim peace agreements but then you'd know better than he did.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-23-01, 00:16 AM (ET) Reply to post #51 53. "Interesting only because you asked, Mike." You might want to go back and read your previous post where you stated "I doubt that King would have supported the Irgun." I, of course, agree with you and think you made a fair extrapolation from his words even though I'm not aware of his actually addressing the issue. And then you asked "Or do you think King would be OK with killing civilian children to make points at the bargaining table?" I was assuming you wanted me to respond with what I thought King might think. My mistake for not understanding the true intent of your words. NOTE: I was also assuming you weren't referring to the Palestinian children killed by Israelis. Hope I didn't misinterpret that one, too. Regarding King's actual words discussed above, they were in support of Israel AND the principle of sovereign nations. In fact, he called the right to a sovereign nation an "inalienable right of all mankind." I have no doubt he would still continue to support Israel's continued right to exist as a sovereign nation, but it sounds to me like he might very well look less than favorably on Israel's continued occupation of Palestinian territory, thereby keeping them from forming their own sovereign nation. Here's the quote from the above link, just in case I'm not interpreting him correctly: "The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country. "How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:11 AM (ET) Reply to post #53 64. "I hope..." that Dr. King would have abhored all the violence but would have backed Israel's right to exist in peace. I suspect he'd have been all in favor of a just solution to the refugee problem and one that didn't have them used as pawns for 53 years by the powerful nations in the region that refused to help them. That is only my hope of what he would think. I'm not arrogant to think I can speak for him. (And I can be pretty arrogant)   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Karmadillo (85 posts) Dec-23-01, 12:05 PM (ET) Reply to post #64 76. "I think we've sufficiently run this one into the ground, but" I can't help but arrogantly presume King's concept of a sovereign nation as "an inalienable right of mankind" is a fairly compelling argument he'd favor Palestinian statehood. Based solely on those words, it's hard to imagine he would favor "a solution to the refugee problem" that wouldn't include for Palestinians the very thing he wanted for people in Israel and Africa: a sovereign nation where they wouldn't have "to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of <their> choosing." And I agree it's likely he would have backed Israel's right to exist in peace. He might even have suggested the creation of a Palestinian nation might go some distance towards bringing about such a state of affairs. But I'm being arrogant again, aren't I? Peace.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 12:18 PM (ET) Reply to post #76 77. "Agree" I, too, would suspect that he would have suggested such a settlement. Do you have any statements by him on the refugee problem? The issue had been a hot topic for almost 20 years before his assasination so he might have made some statements. I'd love to see what he said, if anything. To help find it, the refugees didn't refer to themselves as "Palestinians" until after the 1967 war so Dr. King probably wouldn't have used that term since it wasn't in widespread use during his lifetime.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

leave_no_millionaire_behind (57 posts) Dec-21-01, 09:14 PM (ET) Reply to post #25 36. "Learning, Mike" Again, I'm learning about this subject, not meaning to offend or be unfair to either side. Mike or others, I would ask these things in regard to some of your response... "Israel is a democracy with open elections with multiple diverse parties (btw: roughly 10% of their parliament are arabs). Has universal suffrage with no restrictions based on religion, sex, or ethnicity. Has civil courts. Has trade unions. Has civil rights. Has public education." All admirable, but if we want to somehow influence Arab countries (or any countries for that matter) toward these things, does being their enemy promote that? Might we be better able to influence them if we were considered less of an advesary? "Has repeatedly backed the US in military, political economic and intelligence issues." A two way street. Ir Arab states had enjoyed our support for decades, woundn't they be inclined to back us more, as Israel has? "And, please, don't fall back on some mysterious Jewish force which secretly controls the world" Not a mysterious force, just my understanding that a powerful Jewish lobby influences policy here. If that's not the case, I've learned something. Maybe others will provide evidence of such a lobby or influence, if it's there. I will say there seems to be a media bias toward Israel here. When the JDL was busted for their plot to blow up the congressman's office and mosque (sp) the media never used the word terrorist (that I saw), even though the plot was a terrorist plot and the JDL's history indicates it is a terrorist organization.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-22-01, 10:00 PM (ET) Reply to post #36 42. "Learning" I'd say the way to encourage countries to be democratic, have civil rights, etc. is to reward those that do and reward those that don't when they make improvements. Backing away from the country that does the things we like so that we can be friendlier with countries at odds with what we stand for seems to me to send exactly the wrong message. As for military, economic and other trade, these were offered many times. Israel took the deals. Other countries did not. (Although we give 2 Billion dollars a year to Egypt) As for the JDL, their non-US factions are listed as an officially sanctioned terrorist group in the state department's list. That's about as official as it gets. Domestic groups don't go on that list be they JDL, KKK, American Nazi groups, Christian Identity groups, or any others.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Cappurr (3460 posts) Dec-23-01, 00:48 AM (ET) Reply to post #42 55. "Mike...." I'm really interested in your comments. You do seem to know what you are talking about. Therefore, please consider these questions to be honest questions, and not rhetoric with which to begin a debate: (1) Do you think that if the US encourages Israel publically and privately to acknowledge the desirably and inevitability of a Palestinian state, it would be "backing away" from our support of Israel? (2)What are your thoughts on the Israeli settlement issue. (3)Do you think the US interest (as the current administration sees it) lies in truly promoting peace in that region? (4) If Arafat and Sharon reach an agreement that they belive is fair and sign a treaty, that is ratified properly and a Palestinian state is created, do you believe that the majority of Palistinians will go along with the accord and that the radical elements who don't can be controlled? Do you think Arafat and Sharon are the right leaders for this job? Cats rule; Republicans drool   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 01:25 AM (ET) Reply to post #55 57. "Honest Answers" 1) The US has advocated and lobbied for an independant "Palestinian State" for years. It may have been a backing away but doing it now is just status quo. 2) I think a lasting peace in the region will be a complex situation that will go through phases for decades. People on both sides are used to a state of hostility and have too many vested interests to trust peace. 3) I'm not sure what US interests are these days. With the current administration, I suspect the interests don't stray too far from the oil industry. I don't, however, think those are US interests. I'd say US interests are in promoting a peaceful resolution that encourages open, democratic societies. Actually, this is very much what 242 is about. 4) Personally, I think Sharon and Arafat are both pathetic and neither one is a real leader. But, they're what we've got right now. You never know. It took a right wing nut like Nixon to open relations with China. If anyone left of center would have tried it never would have happened.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:01 AM (ET) Reply to post #36 61. "What is this powerful Jewish lobby?" If we Jews are so powerful, why couldn't we convince the US to bomb Auschwitz in WWII? "Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster?" "Either way, man. Just so it swings!" Stan Freeberg's United States of America   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:06 AM (ET) Reply to post #61 63. "Because" that would have hurt Bayer, Ford, and lots of other corporations with powerful (non-Jewish) US investors. Oh, wait, that would imply that there was a powerful force in the world that couldn't be blamed on the Jews... Oops. Sorry.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

Gussie (786 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:28 AM (ET) Reply to post #63 66. "Yeah! Don't ruin the world domination plan, man!" Don't forget IBM. "Do you want this war to end on a note of triumph or disaster?" "Either way, man. Just so it swings!" Stan Freeberg's United States of America   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

MikeGalos (225 posts) Dec-23-01, 02:39 AM (ET) Reply to post #66 68. "and" GM, and most of the Oil Companies, and a lot of the defense contractors. The list of companies who helped both sides is probably longer than the ones who didn't. And let's not forget good old Prescott Bush. Yes, our current pResident's own ancestor was found guilty of "Trading with the enemy" by being the Nazi's big US banker. About the only way to make sure you aren't backing Nazi collaborating companies is to only do business with companies that didn't exist until the 1950s.   Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

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