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"Religion in Germany vs the US"

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Hamlette (492 posts) Click to EMail Hamlette Click to send private message to Hamlette Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-13-01, 01:45 AM (ET)
"Religion in Germany vs the US"
Here is an interesting site:

http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/~axel/us-d.html

Influence of Religion
In Germany, state and church are closely related, in a manner which must seem appalling to most Americans who believe in the complete separation of church and state. The "Konkordat", a contract entered into by Hitler and the Vatican in 1933 (Hitler offered it to have the church keep quiet about the holocaust, and it worked out rather well), as well as "Kirchenverträge" with the Evangelical Church mandate that churches get to teach religion in public schools, that the state collects church dues in the form of "church taxes", and that churches get access to public universities in order to train their clergy. Most of the German holidays are religious. Blasphemy, "if capable of jeopardizing public peace", is a crime. The biggest German party is called "Christian-Democratic Union".
All this has surprisingly little effect though; the Christian churches have far less influence on public life in Germany than in the US and are rapidly losing members. Only catholicism in Bavaria is a hold out. The main reason is that the overall degree of religiosity in the population is much lower. In the US, people actually go to church every Sunday, something mostly reserved for lonely elderly women in Germany. The proportion of people believing in God is higher in the US than in any other industrialized country. In Germany, people will laugh at you if you tell them that you literally believe the fairy tales of the bible; only some sort of "abstract religiosity" is acceptable. In the US, there are many people who believe what the bible says word for word, and they are not ashamed to say so. This may be an instance of a more general fact: Germans are a lot more skeptical and critical than Americans. Four little examples:

Many people in the US believe in UFO abductions
Americans will happily apply a chemical bug spray in their kitchen as long as it says "safe for humans" on the label
Americans believe that they have "saved" money if they buy something for $50 which has a crossed-out label of $100 attached to it
People actually send loads of money to Christian faith healers which stage the most ridiculous TV shows.
In Germany, the catholic church is generally considered to be more conservative than the protestant churches in social and political issues; the situation in the US is opposite. People on the "religious right", a large and influential movement populated mostly by white protestants, are vehemently opposed to abortion (several abortion doctors have been killed by people on the fringes), believe in the literal truth of the bible to the extend of opposing Darwinism (these people are called "creationists", a word that doesn't even exist in German nor would it be needed), oppose premarital sex, and call homosexuality a sinful choice. These same people also enthusiastically embrace the death penalty, private ownership of guns, military spending and lower taxes, without even noticing a contradiction to the Christian message of "Don't judge, live poor, love your enemies".

The bigot Christian influence can be felt throughout American life: no swearing on radio or TV is allowed (it is rather ironic to hear a beep whenever someone tried to say "fuck", especially in a country which prides itself in strong opposition to censorship), no nudity whatsoever on TV either, and no substantial sex education in the schools (resulting in the highest teen pregnancy rate of the developed world). The media discuss the whole topic of sex only in the context of crime or disease: there is a huge obsession with child molestation, rape, sexual harassment, AIDS etc.; Hollywood rarely shows sex in love movies but almost exclusively in "erotic thrillers", films which intimately link sex to some crime. Crimes involving sex generally carry higher penalties than non-sexual crimes. The advertised cure for AIDS is abstinence; ads favoring condom use cannot be shown on national broadcast TV and a broad condom promotion campaign by the government as in Germany is unthinkable. Some southern states in the US even prohibit the sale of vibrators. It is also rather difficult to buy condoms in the US; they are not available in public restrooms as in Germany. Public nudity at nudist beaches or co-ed saunas is extremely rare. Life sex acts cannot be shown in sex theaters. Anal or oral sex, even between married adults, are illegal in several US states; these laws are rarely enforced, but no lawmaker would dare to try to change them. Topics like legalization of prostitution are utterly unmentionable.

Still, the matter is not completely black-and-white; the American puritanism often only covers the surface. While it is legal in the US to display hard core pornography on internet web sites, this is not allowed in Germany. Similarly, the sex magazines that can be bought at regular newsstands are harder in the US than in Germany; in the US, satellite hard core porn channels can be ordered and this is not possible in Germany. There are certainly more strip clubs in the US than in Germany (a consequence of the higher taboo surrounding public nudity). The US porn industry feeds the whole world and is bigger than Hollywood. Abortion regulations are more liberal in the US than in Germany. Most of these freedoms come courtesy of the Supreme Court, which is very powerful and quite liberal on some topics. Indeed, almost all progressive changes in US legislation can be traced back to Supreme Court decisions; legislatures are too scared for bold moves.

Another strange contradiction given the strong religious base is the enthusiastic embrace of exotic reproduction techniques and genetic modification in the US. Research on human embryos and human cloning is legal in the US (but not funded by the federal government) and illegal in Germany, as are rent-a-womb arrangements where a woman carries the fetus of another couple. Sperm banks which sell sperm based on the donor's features also don't exist in Germany.

It is also my impression that the atmosphere at US colleges is more sexually charged (clothing, flirting, partying etc.) than that at German universities. This however could have something to do with the fact that American students are on average a couple of years younger than German ones.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 I love to use the example of Western Europe... Lydia Leftcoast Aug-13-01 1
   the separation of church and state is a pipe dream glamgirl 08/13/2001 2
   or in Britain... UKNick 08/13/2001 4
 Thanks for the input. goldengreek Aug-13-01 3

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Lydia Leftcoast (974 posts) Click to EMail Lydia%20Leftcoast Click to send private message to Lydia%20Leftcoast Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-13-01, 12:22 PM (ET)
1. "I love to use the example of Western Europe..."
...when fundamentalists advocate teaching religion in schools.

In many Western European countries, such as Germany, religion is a required school subject and clergy are state employees. Of course, their religious situation is different than ours, because most countries are either nearly all Catholic (Belgium), nearly all one denomination of moderate Protestant (Scandinavian countries), or divided between Catholics and one denomination of Protestant (Germany, Netherlands). Europe has not had people like Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy starting new religions. Increased immigration from all over the world, including Muslim and Hindu regions, will eventually break this tidy system down, but this is how the situation has stood for about 300 years.

The result of generations of official state religion is complete indifference to religion. Since the state pays clergy salaries and church administrative and maintenance expenses, the church will survive whether anyone attends or not. Meanwhile, religious instruction in school seems to be about as effective as anti-smoking instruction in schools here. (Have you ever noticed that the rate of smoking is highest among the generation that received anti-smoking instruction in school?)

One of my American friends, an evangelical Christian (born again, but not right wing) moved to Norway to live. When I caught up with her several years later, she told me that she no longer attended church except on holidays, because the few people she knew who did attend regularly were rigid, narrow types and not very intelligent.

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glamgirl (19 posts) Click to EMail glamgirl Click to send private message to glamgirl Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-13-01, 12:44 PM (ET)
2. "the separation of church and state is a pipe dream"
"In God we trust," "One nation under God," "Bush attends church service", etc. etc.

The US government is full of Christian bias.


-webmistress@democratswithspine.com
http://ww.democratswithspine.com

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UKNick (148 posts) Click to EMail UKNick Click to send private message to UKNick Click to view user profile Click to send message via ICQ Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-13-01, 01:18 PM (ET)
4. "or in Britain..."
Where the Church of England is the official religion (the Queen is Head of State and Supreme Governor of the Church). I know C of E church attendances are less than 2 million (and that's at Easter and Christmas) out of a population of 60 million.

Even if you include Catholics, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc etc I think less than 20% of the population regularly attends a church of any description (outside Northern Ireland, anyway)

The law mandates that all state schools must include an 'act of collective worship' once a day and at my (Catholic) High School we had to study Religious Education until 16.

Nick

----------------------------------------
"All it takes for evil to triumph is for
good men to do nothing." – Edmund Burke

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goldengreek (309 posts) Click to EMail goldengreek Click to send private message to goldengreek Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Aug-13-01, 01:00 PM (ET)
3. "Thanks for the input."
This kind of apparently meaningless stuff is really very useful in getting an idea of the social context people live in. If they had freepers/fundies running around abusing that relationship you can bet it would be changed, and pronto.

I hope the other religions can be incorporated okay. I know that's going to make for a pretty bumpy ride.



...On intersecting ground form
communications, on heavy ground
plunder, on bad ground keep going,
on surrounded ground make plans,
and dying ground fight.

-- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

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