Countless Juarez residents flee 'dying city'

[FreakinDJ]

Countless Juarez residents flee 'dying city'

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico – The mother of four raised a finger, pointing out abandoned and stripped concrete homes and counting how many families have fled the Western Hemisphere's deadliest city on her street alone.

"One, two, three, four, here, and two more back there on the next block," said Laura Longoria.

The 36-year-old ran a convenience store in her working-class neighborhood in south Juarez until the owners closed shop, fed up with the tribute they were forced to pay to drug gangsters to stay in business.

Her family vowed to stick it out. But then came the kidnapping of a teen from a stationery shop across the street. After that, Longoria's husband, Enrique Mondragon, requested a transfer from the bus company where he works.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_leaving_juarez

The US and Canada should suspend Mexico from NAFTA until they can clean up the mess within their own boarders.

I know I'll be flamed for that insensitive statement, but nothing else will compel the Wealthy Ruling Elite in that country to do a damm thing about all the human suffering until their money is effected

[madrchsod]

1. good idea..plus

de-crinmalize drugs and put the screws to the mexican government

[Fumesucker]

3. Nothing short of out and out legalization and regulation a la alcohol will stop the cartels..

Anything else leaves the black market distribution channel as the only one people can use, that is the impetus for the cartels with their violence.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Does that include Taliban Heroin

because you know with all the "True American Family Values Crowd" will be screaming - "Traitor, Traitor, Traitor, Traitor"

[Fumesucker]

It would put the Taliban out of the heroin business..

So it's a moot point.

And the Family Values crowd is going to scream about something no matter what, is it possible to turn the volume up from eleven?

[WinkyDink]

24. The TALIBAN DESTROYED THE POPPY FIELDS.

http://www.opioids.com/afghanistan/index.html
"JALALABAD, Afghanistan (February 15, 2001 8:19 p.m. EST
U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world's largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.

A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation's largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan."
---------------------------------------
Right before 9/11, you'll note.
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"In the seven years (1994–2000) prior to a Taliban opium ban, the Afghan farmers' share of gross income from opium was divided among 200,000 families."

"Another obstacle to getting rid of poppy cultivation in Afghanistan is the reluctant collaboration between US forces and Afghan warlords in hunting drug traffickers. In the absence of Taliban, the warlords largely control the opium trade but are also highly useful to the US forces in scouting, providing local intelligence, keeping their own territories clean from Al-Qaeda and Taliban insurgents, and even taking part in military operations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan
---------------------------------------

And now the story is changed: The current propaganda is that NATO and the US are the ones trying to stop production.

Poppy Bush. Interesting "nickname" for a former Chief of the CIA, no?

[FreakinDJ]

31. 2001 - that link is pretty old

Since the US occupation they have replanted the fields and are using the proceeds to fund their armed insurrection

[jmowreader]

52. That's not what you think it is

There was a glut of opium in Afghanistan in early 2001; the only way they could maintain prices at levels they desired was to ensure no "narcotic" was made in 2001. So...they went in and destroyed all the poppies. Without, of course, compensating the field owners.

You can do these kinds of things when you're a dictatorship.

[MH1]

12. if you do that just with marijuana it would reduce demand significantly

but not completely eliminate it.

next step would be cocaine.

[Fumesucker]

17. You can't end the drug war without legalizing drugs..

I think it's as simple as that..

Clearly alcohol is not enough or not good for everyone as far as recreational drugs go, otherwise everyone would just drink and there would be no demand for other drugs.

[MH1]

26. I agree, mostly

I think more serious drugs require serious regulation. Even marijuana should be handled so as to limit access by children. But an adult should certainly be able to grow and smoke their own pot, for example.

You would still have some aspects of the 'drug war' but at vastly reduced levels. If people grew their own pot or could get it locally, then there would be very little market for importing it. Many people who now brave the black market wouldn't take the risk. With cocaine it would have to be treated more like a legal drug, I think. Like how they treat pseudoephedrine now would probably work, and be a vast improvement over the current situation.

[Marnie]

51. So the US gov buys from the criminals and dispenses it to criminals?

And who pays for all the free addicting drugs? Another multibillion dollar department in the Gov.

[PavePusher]

54. You didn't think that through at all, did you? Sheesh. n/t

[Fumesucker]

2. Who started and is still the major impetus for the drug war?

Mirror, mirror on the wall

Who is the least self-aware of all?

[FreakinDJ]

4. Why would you pretend the Wealthy Elite of Mexico is blameless

in this affair

[Fumesucker]

5. Who said I hold the Wealthy Elite blameless?

But what nation truly drives the drug war?

It's not some big secret, everyone knows it.

“Pity poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.” -Porfirio Diaz

[FreakinDJ]

7. The Drug Cartels are just finishing the job the Wealthy Elite started

Mexico's poor have been fleeing from the Corrupt Rule of the Wealthy Elite in that country long before the Drug Cartels moved their operations to Mexico.

I'm not suffering from selective memory

[Fumesucker]

15. We were specifically addressing the drug war..

And its evil effect on Mexico and the Mexican people.

The history of the Mexican elite is really a topic for a different and interesting OP, I would be interested in reading your thoughts on this should you choose to write such.

We all know what nation is the primary driving force behind the drug war and it damn sure isn't Mexico.

[FreakinDJ]

16. Why do you insist on Blaming America as the sole cause

for the plight of the Mexican people.

The line of thinking lacks any credibility and semblance of facts what so ever.

[Fumesucker]

19. Where specifically did I say that America is the soul cause of problems in Mexico?

How exactly does the phrase "Which nation is the primary instigator of the drug war?" parse to you as "All problems in Mexico are the fault of America?"?

I'll just point out that I never even mentioned America.

[FreakinDJ]

23. “Pity poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.”

Never .....

:sarcasm:

[Fumesucker]

29. It's a famous quotation pointing out the the US has been interfering in Mexico for a long time.

Do you think Diaz attributed every single problem Mexico had to the USA?

Keep in mind he died in 1915, America hasn't gotten any less invasive or intrusive in the meantime.

[FreakinDJ]

33. The Wealthy Elite in Mexico doesn't need your help

They are doing a pretty good job of suppressing and slaughtering their citizens without you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=97307&mesg_id=97307

[Fumesucker]

38. That wasn't the subject of the OP..

A subject you apparently wish to strenuously avoid.

The drug war and what it's doing to Mexico..

The cartels are not operating in a vacuum, they are empowered and enabled by the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the border.

[FreakinDJ]

43. You have a valid point there

if by both sides you mean USA's continued War on Drugs

While I would never advocate decriminalizing all drugs and would certainly think decriminalizing Marijuana the right thing to do on several different levels. As for the remainder of the gambit of drugs available in this country the Industrial Prison Complex is the MOST Dysfunctional solution known to man as far as prevention goes. But with Jack Asses like Sheriff Joe down in Arizona it will take Federal Legislation to deter and endless procession of Drug Convictions and countless revenues tossed down Industrial Prison Hole

That said .... they go hand in hand

The Drug trade would not appear even remotely appealing to the depressed Peasant Class if it were not for the Medieval Policies of the Wealthy Elite Ruling Class in that country

[slackmaster]

6. Lest we forget: Nixon's the one!

[lunatica]

8. Bashing Mexicans because American craving for drugs creates Cartels

That's real bright of you and other posters here. Yeah. The US is such a bastion of honesty and purity that it should teach its neighbor a lesson.

:sarcasm:

[FreakinDJ]

9. Plalezzze - who the fuck was Bashing Mexican people

I suggested suspension from NAFTA as the only means to force the Wealthy Ruling Elite of that country to demand change.

You know full well nothing will be done about the plight of the average citizen in Mexico unless you pull the purse strings of the Wealthy Elite in that country

[lunatica]

18. The US won't stop any of this. It's created it. Study some history

The US loves it's policy of Disaster Capitalism all over Latin and South America. It's the prime culprit, and perfectly happy to have things the way they are. It likes it so much that now it's doing it to its own citizens.

[FreakinDJ]

22. WRONG - The Wealthy Elite loves it's policy of Disaster Capitalism

We have seen what the Wealthy elite have done to Mexico long before the Drug Cartels moved in and set up shop. We have also seen what the Wealthy Elite of various countries have done to Argentina, Venezuela, Guatemala, Honduras, and countless other South American Countries.

We are LIVING through what the Wealthy Elite our doing to our own country as well.

Borders don't apply to Wealth - They can buy influence and cause suffering through out the world as long as their is a corrupt hand outstretch to receive their ill gotten money

[Fumesucker]

40. It's not the American demand for drugs that creates the cartels..

It is the American politicians that want those drugs to remain illegal and empower the cartels with vast flows of cash.

Everyone involved knows perfectly well that full on legalization and regulation like alcohol will cut the legs off the cartels, bringing them down to the point they would be vulnerable to ordinary law enforcement.

[Rage for Order]

53. We seem to have our drug gangs under control, for the most part

They mostly kill each other. Occasionally they kill innocent bystanders who get caught in the crossfire, but for the most part the drug violence is contained within the community that engages in those activities.

[MH1]

11. I thought the problem was the owners not the 'boarders'?

sorry, couldn't resist. :evilgrin:

disagree with your conclusion - I think jobs in Mexico helps us - the problem is that the jobs didn't stay in Mexico, they really went to Asia. Which doesn't help. But thus, excluding Mexico from NAFTA at this point wouldn't make a huge difference, would it? I mean what percent of off the rack clothes do you see that are "made in Mexico"? or any other products?

[dkf]

14. It is now cheaper to produce goods in Mexico than in China.

Shipping costs are lower.

[former9thward]

44. A lot of auto parts come from Mexico.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

13. Change needs to come from both sides.

Mexico needs to clean up their corruption, etc. and the US needs to stop the flow of weapons and stop demand for drugs. And I'm not sure how you can stop demand for illegal drugs unless you legalize them.

[dkf]

20. Mexican corruption has led to a weak government structure.

Problem is instead of trying to fix things Mexicans would rather flee the country. Nobody ever seems ambitious about Mexico's prospects. What is up with that?

[Fumesucker]

21. “Pity poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.”

-Porfirio Diaz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porfirio_D%C3%ADaz

[dkf]

25. You would think there would be some ambitious leader though.

Sadly the only leaders seem to be in the thuggery.

[FreakinDJ]

27. Why - the Ruling Elite will just have him assassinated

Happens every time anyone threatens the Wealthy Elite's strangle hold on the country

[dkf]

28. Exactly who is this ruling elite and why do we rarely hear about them?

[FreakinDJ]

30. Same in this country

We never hear the people's side of the Story....

Actually I must be STUPID. I received my information about what REALLY HAPPENED in Chiapas from some one who lived through it. Who was there when it happened. Who was living in a "Living Hell" as mandated by the Wealthy Ruling Elite of Mexico.

The INFORMATION most people do not have access to is the Chiapas Rebellion did not start until the Wealthy Ruling Elite attempted to outlaw the children of the Peasant Class from going to school

Massacre of 45 Indians at Acteal

On December 22, 1997, paramilitary troops massacred 45 Tzotzil-Maya Indians in Acteal, Chenalhó, in the same general area where we would be traveling. Several dozen gunmen affiliated with and supported by the ruling Revolutionary Institutional Party (the PRI) spent over four hours hunting down and killing men, women, and children. In total, 16 children and 21 women were killed, 25 were seriously injured, and about a dozen were disappeared. Survivors reported that the gunmen, armed with AK-47 assault rifles, listened for crying babies in the brush, hunted them down, and killed entire families.

http://www.yachana.org/reports/chiapas/postam.html

Rebellion in Chiapas

On New Year's Day, 1994, peasant rebels took over six towns in the southern Mexican state of Chiapas. Chiapas is one of the poorest states in Mexico, suffering from job declines in coffee and oil production, and with a sizable ethnic population (Mayan Indians). The rebels, who call themselves the Emiliano Zapata National Liberation army (EZLN), also carried out acts of terrorism in several central states and planted car bombs in Mexico City. Their leader, who calls himself Subcommander Marcos, described the rebellion as a rebellion of the poor masses against the rich few, and argued that the government needs to create a new economic system that better serves the needs of the poor. While the rebellion never significantly threatened the stability of the government and has been largely surpressed, it did cause considerable bloodshed (86 persons died in the fighting during the first few days of 1994), and has ocassionally flared up again. Particularly before the August election, the Chiapas rebellion led some to question the extent of popular support for the government's economic program.

http://www.galbithink.org/topics/mex/ps.htm#Chiapas

The third group of explanations falls between these two perspectives. A growing and insightful body of literature emphasizes the maldistribution of natural resources - especially land - as the central grievance of the EZLN and its sympathizers.5 This literature argues that the development model used by the Mexican government has generally failed. The government's focus should be on microeconomic and micropolitical issues, such as market access, peasant agriculture, local corruption, and the control of PRI political bosses. The virtue of these studies is that they analyze both the structural inequities of land distribution and the history of impediments to real reform

http://www.library.utoronto.ca/pcs/eps/chiapas/chiapas1.htm

[dkf]

32. Why isnt China the model for moving people out of poverty?

Distribution of the land is less important than distribution of knowledge.

The examples cited seems so backwards and brutal in this world of high technology.

[FreakinDJ]

34. No Thanks to China's brutal form of Capitalism

Mexico is Bad enough - but China has got to be the absolute worst

China has been a HUGE violator of human rights, slave labour,
detention without trial, arresting people for their religious beliefs,
summary executions, terrible environmental pollution, terribly poor
safety record in industry.

[dkf]

36. Well brutal it may be but it is improving the lives of their people.

They have made the biggest strides in reducing poverty of all the countries in the world.

The Mexican government on the other hand has let the drug cartels take over. I can't see that happening in China.

[FreakinDJ]

37. Surely you don't mean these improvements do you

Giving New Meaning to the term "Freedom isn't Free"

China's Death Buses Deliver Executions, Organ Harvesting On the Go

If you're a criminal in China, you'll want to avoid its new death buses, vehicles that carry out executions while streaming live video of them, then provide some privacy for organ harvesting.

The buses, of which over 40 are currently in use, are replacing firing squads as China's preferred method of execution. The buses provide a setup for lethal injections, and the acts are carried out on streaming video so local authorities can observe and ensure that everything is done legally.

Critics say that the buses help the government secretly harvest organs to sell to the west, as there's already a doctor on hand to administer the injection and they never show the bodies between execution and cremation.

http://gizmodo.com/5151377/chinas-death-buses-deliver-executions-organ-harvesting-on-the-go

[COLGATE4]

47. You'll wait and wait, but all you'll hear are crickets. This is the only

retort the armchair theoreticians can make about any of the multiple problems Latin America faces - it's all the fault of the "ruling elite who routinely murder the poor working peasants". About 4th Grade level.

[Mulhane]

48. The police are just another gang

I don't believe those film clips of Mexican Military burning piles of Cocaine. probably just inert white powder. Laundered drug money is keeping capitalism afloat, along with gun running from US arms Manufacturing.

[NutmegYankee]

35. Mexico needs to declare war on the Drug Gangs.

And not a police action "war", I mean go into these cities with the military and wipe out the gangsters like we did the insurgents in Falluja. It's gotten so bad that the last police Officer in one valley just disappeared. They need to realize they are under attack and wipe these gangs off the face of the earth with maximum brutality. No arrests - No mercy.

[Fumesucker]

39. Cut off their funding, fully legalize and regulate drugs..

That's where the great majority of the power the cartels have comes from, the vast flow of money in illegal drugs, legalize the drugs, regulate them just like alcohol and ninety percent of your problem just magically goes away.

When was the last time you saw a shootout between alcohol distributors?

[NutmegYankee]

41. I'm not sure there is enough authority to even regulate the drugs.

You basically have no police or courts in several cities. Sure, legalization would reduce the drug profit, but the gangs would just switch to protection money and kidnappings. They have to be destroyed to re-establish the rule of law and civil control.

Edit: typo

[Fumesucker]

42. You can't destroy them if they have more money than the government..

Money is power or can buy power, the cartels are powerful because they have vast hoards of money, take away the majority of their funding source and the problem becomes solvable.

Protection money and kidnapping is hardly the cash cow that drugs are, day in and day out.

Anything other than legalization/regulation is just treating the symptoms while the disease continues to ravage the patient.

Perhaps our politicians will concede reality when the government of Mexico is fully captured by the cartels but somehow I doubt it.

[Odin2005]

45. This is has become a civil war, the cartel leaders are effectively warlords.

An interesting comparison is with Denmark just after the viking raids started bring in tons of plundered wealth, the old kingdom collapsed because it could not control the newly wealthy viking warlords.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. It's "affected" not "effected," but I digress -

Your suggestion will never pass the lips of anyone serious because it shouldn't. It would only serve to create an even more profitable state of affairs for the drug cartels.

[EFerrari]

49. Our government does everything it can to keep the elites in power.

It would be hypocritical to then turn around and sanction them.

[Marnie]

50. The primary responsibility is Mexico's.

As long as they can whine and get money from the US for doing nothing they will continue to do nothing.
At the very least the US should charge Mexico for the cost of their inability to police their own border and control their own crime.