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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:42 PM
Original message
Libyan Revolution Day 68
Links to sites with updates: AJE Live Blog April 26 (today) AJE Twitter Dashboard The Guardian Reuters Telegraph feb17.info Libya Alhurra (live video webcast from Benghazi) libyafeb17.com

Twitter links: Ayman Mohyeldin, with AJE Ben Wedeman, with CNN tripolitanian, a Libyan from Tripoli Brian Conley, reporter in Libya FreeLibyanYouth, Libyan advocate LibyaFeb17.com twitter account ChangeInLibya, Libyan advocate

Useful links: feb17voices Current time in Libya Prayer times in Libya

Day 67 here.

Marching On in Libya, for the revolutionaries!


Relatives at the funeral of one of seven people from two families killed in Misrata by shells believed to have been fired by forces loyal to Gaddafi

Photograph: Christophe Simon / Agence France-Presse



Libyan Rebels Claim 'Victory' In Misratah - video
Sky News special correspondent Alex Crawford, who is in the besieged city, said rebel leaders had asked for further assistance from international forces as they seek to wrestle control from the army.

Col Gaddafi's forces continue to pen in the city on three sides - the fourth being the rebel-held port.

Rocket attacks by the army have killed dozens in Misratah, despite claims by Col Gaddafi's regime that the army had withdrawn.

Reports said shelling in residential areas killed as many as 30 people and injured up to 60 more in latest attacks.


This is a video report, and it is a must-watch.

Assault on Misurata: How much longer can it go on? - video
The scale of destruction is brutal, in every corner a ghost of what could have been a family's escape, only it seems shelling by pro-Gaddafi forces left no refuge for civilians.

Al Jazeera's Andrew Simmons, from the besieged city.


How Libya is making smart people turn stupid
I have little doubt the Gaddafi regime pays close attention to the views being expressed by Western critics of the intervention in Libya.

One of the key lessons the Libyan leadership will have duly noted is that so long as Libyan civilians are killed 10 or 20 at a time, the wars critics will view this as a moderate amount of killing nothing that merits the application of the term massacre. At the same time, the message going out to Libyan civilians is that many observers in the West have less interest in who is getting killed than in who is doing the killing. Deaths that can be attributed to NATO reveal the dreadful consequences of foreign intervention, while those caused by Gaddafi are, supposedly, the unavoidable consequences of a counter-insurgency operation.

...

Louis Proyect notes:

My hometown New York City has a population of just over 8 million. That is 20 times the size of Misurata. So an equivalent casualty rate for NYC over a two-month period would be about 5000, right? And over a 12 month period would be 30,000? Now of course this would not be genocide but it would be a massacre of immense proportions.

Consider that Gaza has a population of 1.6 million, just 4 times the size of Misurata. When Israel left 1500 Palestinians dead after its December 2008 invasion, the world cried out against such a bloody attack even to the point that a life-long Zionist by the name of Richard Goldstone felt enough pressure to head a commission that found Israel guilty of war crimes. But when the equivalent death toll in Misurata is nearly as high, our anti-anti-Qaddafi friends see this as a mere bagatelle.


Libyan mountain refugees tell of fearsome assault
Refugees fleeing Libya's Western Mountains told of heavy bombardment by Muammar Gaddafi's forces as they try to dislodge rebels in remote Berber towns.

The capture of the Dehiba-Wazin crossing on the Tunisian border by rebels last week has let refugees flee in cars or on foot along rocky paths, swelling the numbers of Libyans sheltering in southern Tunisia to an estimated 30,000 people.

While the world's attention has been on the bloody siege of the western rebel stronghold of Misrata and battles further east, fighting is intensifying in the region known as the Western Mountains.

"Our town is under constant bombardment by Gaddafi's troops. They are using all means. Everyone is fleeing," said one refugee, Imad, bringing his family from Kalaa in the heart of the mountains.


Libyan rebels, foreign minister meet with African officials
ADDIS ABABA, April 25 (Reuters) - Libya's foreign minister Abdelati Obeidi and two representatives of the country's rebels were meeting with African Union officials to discuss a possible solution to the Libyan conflict, the AU said on Monday. Earlier this month, rebels rejected a plan by the AU to halt the civil war in Libya, because it did not include the departure of Muammar Gaddafi and his sons.

"This will be the first time that they (rebels) are attending a meeting here. We will meet both sides one after the other," Ramtane Lamamra, AU Commissioner for Peace and Security, told Reuters.

The rebels are represented in Ethiopia by Al Zubedi Abdalla, a former ambassador to South Africa, and Bujeldain Abdalla, a former Libyan ambassador to Uganda. Both men told Reuters they would comment after the meetings.

...

The African Union does not have a good track record in brokering peace deals, having failed recently to end conflicts or disputes in Somalia, Madagascar and Ivory Coast. (Reporting by Aaron Maasho; Writing by Duncan Miriri; Editing by Myra MacDonald)




Click here for updated map


Video of the convoy sent to take Benghazi, taken from a dead soliders cell phone (shows how massive the operation was): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwWwOeZqz6M

Sky News went with Gaddafi minders to find a "civilian town bombed" only they were never shown any such thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O5KJavfiQo

TNC presser talking about various details of the revolution (thanks to Waiting for Everyone): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Topic on the women of the revolution, dispels myths that they are treated poorly: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Videos to bring the Libyan Revolution into context:

The Battle of Benghazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0vChMDuNd0

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyaPnMnpCAA

BBC Panorama on Libya Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzwQvcx62s

Tea of Freedom Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5tu5bJWKc

Latest indiscriminate shelling in Misurata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wop3C4zrPXI

Text of the resolution.

How will a no fly zone work? AJE reports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWEwehTtK2k

Canada: Canada to send six CF-18s for Libya 'no-fly' mission Norway: Norway to join military intervention in Libya Belgium: Belgium ready for a military operation in Libya Qatar and the UAE: Run-up for Western worlds next military commitment ... with unusual support Denmark: Denmark ready for action against Gaddafi France: Following U.N. Vote, France Vows Libya Action Soon Italy: Italy to make bases available for Libya no-fly zone-source United Kingdom: Libya: UK forces prepare after UN no-fly zone vote United States: Nations draw up plans for no-fly zone over Libya Jordan: Military strikes on Libya 'within hours' Spain: Spain Expected to Join NATO No-fly Zone Enforcement over Libya

"One month ago (Western countries) were sooo nice, so nice like pussycats," Saif says in a contemptuous sing-song tone."Now they want to be really aggressive like tigers. (But) soon they will come back, and cut oil deals, contracts. We know this game." - Saif Gaddafi


(Yeah, Saif, as if you weren't "cutting oil deals, contracts" with western states. Who are the 'tigers' now? Bombing your own people.)

A Legal War: The United Nations Participation Act and Libya
The above link is to an overview of why Obama's implementation of the NFZ and R2P is perfectly legal under the law. I will not post it entirely here, however, all objections come down to the misinformed position that Obama, by using forces in Libya, was invoking Article 43 of the United Nations. This is wrong. Obama invoked Article 42, which does not require congressional approval to implement. Proof of this is that Article 43 has never been used.

It goes like this: The US law (Title 22, Chap. 7, Subchap. XIV 287d) grants the President the right to invoke UN Article 42 without authorization, the War Powers Act (Title 50, Chap. 33 1541) grants the President permission to act without authorization under "specific statutory authorization" which, by definition, is what 287d does. 1543 of the War Powers Act requires the President to report to Congress, which he did. One can argue all day and night about the legality of the War Powers Act, doesn't change the fact that under the law as it is written, the President acted within the law.


March 10 7:28pm Saif al Islam Gaddafi says "the time has come for full-scale military action" against Libyan rebels. He goes on to say that Libyan forces loyal to his family "will never surrender, even if western powers intervene".


Libyan Karzai? Chalabi? Forget it
Fortunately, the Council wasn't made-in-the-USA or manufactured by another foreign power. Rather it came into existence, a month ago, at Libyans' own initiative, soon after the winds of revolutionary change blew Libya's way, and after its people rose to the occasion with pride and courage.


Getting Libya's Rebels Wrong
Don't buy Qaddafi's line: The rebels aren't al Qaeda.


Who Are the Rebels?
During weeks of reporting in Benghazi and along the chaotic, shifting front line, Ive spent a great deal of time with these volunteers. The hard core of the fighters has been the shababthe young people whose protests in mid-February sparked the uprising. They range from street toughs to university students (many in computer science, engineering, or medicine), and have been joined by unemployed hipsters and middle-aged mechanics, merchants, and storekeepers. There is a contingent of workers for foreign companies: oil and maritime engineers, construction supervisors, translators. There are former soldiers, their gunstocks painted red, green, and blackthe suddenly ubiquitous colors of the pre-Qaddafi Libyan flag.


A vision of a democratic Libya
The interim national council, formed by opposition groups in Libya, has said it will hold free and fair elections and draft a national constitution. Here is its eight-point plan in full.


The left: slipping towards Qaddafi?
When the revolt against Qaddafi started in Libya, hardly anyone on the left however broadly defined could say anything in defence of Qaddafi.

With the start of the "no-fly zone", many on the left started to sideline the issues within Libya and focus their efforts on denouncing NATO.

Now the denunciation of NATO, in turn, is acting as a lever to introduce defence of Qaddafi and denunciation of the rebels into broad-left discourse.

...

Everything is done by insinuation and sarcasm, just as old-style Stalinists used to deflect criticism of the USSR by studied wondering whether the regime was quite as bad as extreme Western right-wingers used to say, or whether the right-wingers' motives for criticism might be suspect.


Is Qaddafi an anti-racist?

...

One of the signs that you are dealing with a cruder form of propaganda is if the author does not bother to address evidence that contradicts his or her own. To be taken seriously on the question of Qaddafis commitment to pan-African values, you have to take a close look at his overall record, something that does not interest Forte who is so anxious to tilt the scales in favor of Qaddafi that he does not bother to conceal the fact that his hand rests upon the scale.

...



Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

"I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to lose the battle" -Mohammed Nabbous, a month ago when all this began


I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo's first report, which many of you may remember, begging for help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38EXALI60hg

Mo's last report, a fallen hero trying to spread the word to the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecu_iWLn-rg

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child, she had this to say about the No Fly Zone and R2P UN resolution:

We started this in a pure way, but he turned it bloody. Thousands of our men, women, and children have died. We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it. All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up. We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else. If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore.


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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Current time in Libya, 3:44am Tuesday, April 26
Sorry I have to afk for a little bit, had something to take care of.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R

:hi:





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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Audio: Gaddafi forces damaged ancient heritage site in Yefren
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. UN Council Asked to Condemn Syria Attacks on Protesters
UN Council Asked to Condemn Syria Attacks on Protesters
The United Nations Security Council is being asked to condemn the Syrian governments attacks on protesters against President Bashar al-Assad, Portugals ambassador said.

Britain, France, Germany and Portugal today circulated a draft statement that asks for restraint by all parties to the conflict and respect for human rights, and endorses Secretary- General Ban Ki-moons call for an investigation of the violence. It also notes Assads decision last week to lift the 48-year-old emergency law and abolish the Supreme State Security Court.

The situation in Syria is extremely serious and it requires a very clear condemnation from the international community, said Portugals ambassador to the UN, Jose Moraes Cabral. Noting that Ban and the European Unions foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, have condemned the Syrian governments actions, Cabral said it was time the Security Council also said something.

The first UN Security Council consideration of the situation in Syria follows the reported deaths today of at least 20 people when security forces stormed the city of Daraa in the south and opened fire from tanks and armored vehicles.


Interestingly, Brazil and Germany stood back with regards to Libya. I think they're trying to prove that they're supportive of people being killed, by doing this here.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. K & R
Thanks to Brazil & Germany for joining in the fight against endless tyranny.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Libya Conflict Has Displaced 550,000 People
Libya Conflict Has Displaced 550,000 People
U.S. officials said Monday that more than a half-million people, most of them third-country nationals, have fled Libya since the uprising against Moammar Gadhafi's government began in February. And they say about 5,000 people are joining the exodus every day.

Officials here say the outflow is affecting all six countries bordering Libya, but with the burden failing mainly on Tunisia and Egypt.

They say that to help cope with it, the world community, led by U.N. agencies, has mounted one of the largest humanitarian airlifts in history.

Senior officials at the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, or USAID, who briefed reporters on Monday said an estimated 550,000 people have fled Libya since fighting began.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Reuters reports on the plight of refugees trying to escape heavy shelling by Gaddafi's forces:


Refugees fleeing Libya's Western Mountains told of heavy bombardment by Muammar Gaddafi's forces as they try to dislodge rebels in remote Berber towns.

The capture of the Dehiba-Wazin crossing on the Tunisian border by rebels last week has let refugees flee in cars or on foot along rocky paths, swelling the numbers of Libyans sheltering in southern Tunisia to an estimated 30,000 people.

While the world's attention has been on the bloody siege ofthe western rebel stronghold of Misrata and battles further east, fighting is intensifying in the region known as the Western Mountains.

"Our town is under constant bombardment by Gaddafi's troops.They are using all means. Everyone is fleeing," said one refugee, Imad, bringing his family from Kalaa in the heart of the mountains.


1:00am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. Misrata and western Libya remain focus for aid: U.S

Source: Reuters




WASHINGTON | Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:55pm EDT

International aid groups are rotating doctors into the besieged Libyan city of Misrata and evacuating migrant workers as fighting rages between rebels and pro-government forces, U.S. officials said on Monday.


"There have been some optimistic changes over the last two or three days but conditions continue to be difficult to assess in many areas due to security," said Mark Bartolini, director of foreign disaster assistance at the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).


Bartolini said USAID and partners including the World Food Program, the Red Cross and other groups are positioning food and other supplies in the region while seeking to more access to western parts of Libya and Misrata, the port city that has seen some of the most intense fighting of the conflict.


"We're rotating doctors with some of our partners, bringing in their staff, and there are ongoing medical needs. We continue however to get supplies in," Bartolini told a news briefing.



"We've had to move around medical supplies and food supplies in Misrata because of attacks by pro-government forces and there's been some logistics issues around that."

...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/25/us-libya-usa-...








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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Link: Full U.S. State Department press briefing on which the Reuters report is based...


Special Briefing: Current U.S. Humanitarian Assistance Efforts in Libya

Reuben Brigety, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration
USAID Director of Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance Mark Bartolini

Washington, DC
April 25, 2011

http://www.state.gov/g/prm/rls/rmks/2011/161762.htm






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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I wish there had been the more sophisticated
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 11:13 PM by tabatha
electronic social media as there is now, at the time of the Somalia problems.

The Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions were helped greatly by the internet and social media. I do not believe that they would have been successful 10 or more years go.

The South African revolution took a long time without equivalent social media because the government was not shelling grad rockets into Soweto or Mamelodi townships. The government was changed because of foreign interference in the form of sanctions on just about everything, that had the time to work - resulting in a declining economic system as a result. South Africa did not have the vast billions of dollars at hand that Gaddafi has, to be able to ignore the sanctions although they sure tried with backroom deals with many countries. And although SA was fairly well militarized, they did not have 1800+ tanks as Libya does.

Thus every situation is different - all factors including the decade in which it happened have to be taken into consideration. It is too easy to make false equivalencies.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Fighting in besieged Libyan city rages on

Source: Al Jazeera





Civilians reportedly killed in shelling as Tripoli accuses NATO of killing 45 people with raid on Gaddafi's compound.


Last Modified: 25 Apr 2011 18:18


Intense fighting continues in the beseiged western Libyan city of Misurata, with at least six people reported killed in the Ras Ammar neighbourhood by shelling blamed on forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi.

Residents of the neighbourhood said that shelling started at around 1am local time on Monday and lasted for an hour. Civilians trying to escape in a car were killed when a shell landed nearby.

The car carrying a husband, wife and daughter was caught near the explosion, the residents told the Associated Press news agency. The mother, sister and grand-daughter of another family were also killed as they tried to get into the same car.

The battle for Misurata, which has claimed hundreds of lives in the past two months, has become the focal point of the armed rebellion against Gaddafi since fighting elsewhere is deadlocked.

Images of civilians being killed and wounded by Gaddafi's heavy weapons, have spurred calls for more forceful international intervention to stop the bloodshed.

...


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142...








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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. New Released Statement from Youth of Tripoli (Translated)
New Released Statement from Youth of Tripoli (Translated)
We are the youth of Feb 17th Revolution in the city of Tripoli, the date is April 19th. We would like to acknowledge the bravery and strong resistance of people of Musrata and western mountains and the revolutionaries, freedom is near for them. And inshallah we will reunite with them after the defeat of this tyrannical corruptive regime. We are assuring you that we are with the National transitional council and all their decisions. We in the city of Tripoli are moving in between neighbourhood to initiate revolutionaries to act as needed. And we announce to the world that all of us citizens of Tripoli are with the revolutionaries and the national transitional council * ALLAHU AKBAR* and no one is with Gaddafi except his sons and his mercenaries. And the battalions and soldiers are starting to abandon him after they witnessed with their eyes the blood shed, rapes of Libyans on the hands of mercenaries. We are disowning this illegitimate regime. Long live libya free and united *ALLAHU AKBAR ALLAHUAKBAR* and Saif is a dreamer. *ALLAHU AKBAR*
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Yosarian71 Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Interesting omission
Nothing about their "brothers" in the East who are sitting on their hands in Ajdabiya waiting for NATO to wipe out Gadhafi's brigades from the sky. If I was watching my neighbors die under withering bombardment in Misurata or the mountains, or fighting a guerrilla war in Zawiya or Tripoli, I would be pretty freaking pissed right now too. NATO is offering to serve as a steamroller from the sky, and no one has left Ajdabiya in over a week, while you see what seem like daily protests in Benghazi of tens of thousands.

Maybe it is time for those protesters to head to the front and start fighting. Their countrymen in the west are dying.

I understand in basic terms that it is incredibly difficult to project a citizen rebel force more than a couple of hundred miles, but they have to do something. Gadhafi is weak right now. It is time to attack and end this bloody war.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. A rebel commander said last week that they'd move in 2 weeks
Opposition fighters were digging in at Ajdabiyah to better resist frequent assaults from multiple directions by Gaddafi forces. It sounded like they were staging there and building up reinforcements in preparation for a major push eastward.






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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. They've been training rebels hard.


Was contemplating posting this training pic in the OP but decided not to.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. That pic gives me flashbacks, lol
In the U.S. Army, it takes 16 weeks of training (Basic and Advanced Infantry Training) to qualify an Infantry troop. Reports from Libya indicate the TNC is trying to accomplish it in 3 weeks.

Two weeks sounds like a long time to sit and wait at Ajdabiyah, but I got the impression that they really want to be prepared before mounting a major offensive (and avoid the premature advances--and subsequent chaotic retreats--of the past). This may be the calm before the storm...






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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. Bani Walids tribes and Warfala
Bani Walids tribes and Warfala confirm that they are 100% with their brothers in Misrata @ChangeInLibya

http://liveword.ca/libya/2011/04/25/4843 /
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. The Amazigh Struggle under the Gaddafi Regime
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 10:47 PM by joshcryer
The Amazigh Struggle under the Gaddafi Regime
...

For the past 42 years, the Libyan government has participated in a deliberate movement to erase the Amazigh from Libyan history and to assign them an Arab identity in order to justify nationalist ideological claims, despite long-lasting exchange between ethnic groups. The Arabicization of Amazigh history began with the onset of Gaddafis 1969 revolution, declaring Libya as an Arab state, naming Arabic as Libyas only language and ignoring the 10 percent of Libyas population that identifies as Amazigh. Their indigenous language, Tamazight, was outlawed, and those who were found speaking it were punished.

In 2006, a Libyan Amazigh singer, Ali Fates, was arrested by Libyan officials for singing Tamazight songs at a festival in Morocco. The singer, now in exile, said defiantly, It is my right.

Fates is not the only Amazigh musician to face repression at the hands of the Gaddafi regime. Two years ago, another Amazigh musician, Abdulla Ishini, was arrested and sentenced to 5 years. At the beginning of the current uprising, revolutionists helped Ishini escape.

In Gaddafis Libya, Amazigh names were also banned, and Amazigh history was excluded from school books. Amazigh Islamic religious practices, based on the Ibadi School of jurisprudence, were rejected by the regime. Even Amazigh cities, primarily located in the region west of Tripoli called the Nafusa Mountains, have been stripped of their Amazigh names and replaced with Arabic monikers.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. Misrata: "It's a free-fire zone on civilians"
(The link has an excellent video report from The Sunday Times' Marie Colvin in Misrata.)





Witnesses: Libyan government forces shelling civilian areas of Misrata


By the CNN Wire Staff
April 25, 2011 6:33 p.m. EDT


Tripoli, Libya (CNN) --

...


"It's just hell," said Marie Colvin, a foreign affairs correspondent for the Sunday Times of London, who has been in the city for a week. "Civilian neighborhoods are being decimated as we speak."


She said that at least 10 people had been killed and at least 30 others wounded.

...


Asked about the rebel army, she laughed. "We're talking about an army of shopkeepers, engineers, car mechanics," she said. "Very, very few trained military."

...


"It's a free-fire zone on civilians," she said from the hospital, where she said she had seen casualties that ranged "from loss of limbs to an 8-year-old boy struck in the ankle by shrapnel. He'll keep the foot, but he was in bad shape."


Outside, a white tent served as a triage area; a refrigerator truck was packed with bodies.


When two people were killed in one house, the family got into a car, but it too was hit, killing a man and two children, she said.

...


http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/25/libya.war/in...








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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Libya: rebels warn of Gaddafi plan to blitz Misurata with artillery shelling
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 11:25 PM by joshcryer
Libya: rebels warn of Gaddafi plan to blitz Misurata with artillery shelling
Rebels in Misurata warned that Col Muammar Gaddafi had withdrawn his troops from the town before an artillery bombardment.

Shelling reached its heaviest of the two-month siege after rebels tightened their grip on the centre of the western coastal enclave. Gaddafi troops moved from the old front line in Tripoli Street to keep up the siege of Libya's third largest city from suburbs to the south and south west.

Salvoes of rockets, mortars and tank shells from the Toomina and Al Ghiran areas of the city have killed 48 in two days, including five members of one family, according to medical sources. Two schools were destroyed in the Abbad neighbourhood.

A rebel spokesman, called Mohammed, said: "We think the pull-out was a signal to escalate the shelling. We think he is going to destroy the city from a distance."
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Youth in Libya - Update 1
http://vimeo.com/22652761

Rachel is back in Benghazi and documenting how this revolution has made the youth of Libya into activists and soldiers.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. Reuters photo of sign at Gaddafi compound:
Retuers photographers, taken on a government tour (probably a diplomatic way of saying they're not allowed to report freely) got a shot of this sign at the entrance of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi's Bab al-Aziziyah compound in Tripoli.

...



12:00am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...


Being steadfast, demonstrating resolve, can be a good thing. Being steadfast in committing crimes against humanity--not so much...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. Revolutionaries force Gaddafi forces into another retreat in western mountains
Report from Al Jazeera's excellent correspondent Anita McNaught. Not yet posted in AJ videos.

McNaught reported Gaddafi forces were forced to retreat from another town by rebel resistance. She said Gaddafi had hoped to divide the Berbers from the local population, but that hasn't occurred--they are united in opposing the regime.






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Link to video report:
8:23am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...


Looks like Al Jazeera English put it on their Libya blog 3 minutes after I posted. :)






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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Important part of this video: the local councils are denouncing Gaddafi now.
Gaddafi is losing the west just as he lost the east.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. It also reports the first NATO airstrikes in the western mountains
It looks like NATO warplanes have now begun to take out some of the positions that have been shelling the population there without mercy.

That the Berbers there are actively supporting the revolution also is a BFD.






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
25. "BODIES EVERYWHERE"

Source: Reuters



...


"Bodies of Gaddafi's troops are everywhere in the streets and in the buildings. We can't tell how many. Some have been there for days," said rebel Ibrahim.

Rebel spokesman Abdelsalam, speaking late on Monday, said Gaddafi's forces were trying to re-enter the Nakl Thaqeel Road, which leads to Misrata's port, its lifeline to the outside.

"Battles continue there. We can hear explosions," he said by phone. He said Gaddafi's forces positioned on the western outskirts of the city had also shelled the road from there.

Another rebel spokesman, Sami, said the humanitarian situation was worsening rapidly.

"It is indescribable. The hospital is very small. It is full of wounded people, most of them are in critical condition," he told Reuters by phone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/25/libya-idUSLDE...







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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. Libya loses grip on telecom investments in Africa
The Libyan government is losing its grip on Africa's telecom market following a freeze of the country's investments in Zambia, South Africa, Uganda and Rwanda.

The Zambian government has frozen Libya's 75 percent stake in the Zambia Telecommunication Co. (Zamtel) in order to enforce U.N.-backed sanctions. The sanctions come in the wake of unrest that has engulfed the Libya, aimed at unseating President Moammar Gadhafi.

The Zambian government has not yet officially taken over management of Zamtel. In Uganda and Rwanda, however, the governments have not only frozen Libya's assets but taken over management of the telecom companies owned by the Libyan government through its telecom investment arm, the LAP Green network.

Libya had moved to compete with major telecom players in Africa, including Airtel, Vodacom and MTN, but the country's investment and expansion plans have now been shattered.

http://www.cio.co.ke/Top-Stories/libya-loses-grip-on-te...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Funeral for Chris Hondros, photojournalist killed in Misrata, to be held Saturday in NC


FAYETTEVILLE (WTVD) -- A funeral service will be held this week for the North Carolina State University graduate who was killed while on assignment in Libya.

Last Wednesday, 41-year-old Chris Hondros was working for the Getty Images News Services in Misurata, Libya when a piece of shrapnel struck him in the head.

Hondros was working alongside film director and producer Tim Hetherington, who was nominated for an Oscar for the war documentary "Restrepo." Hetherington was also killed in the attack.

A memorial service for Hondros will be held Friday night at Rogers and Breece Funeral Home, on Ramsey Street in Fayetteville.

His funeral will be held on Saturday at Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Church in Fayetteville.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id...



R.I.P. :patriot:






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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
31. Eastern Libyans believe in national unity, distrust AU and Turkish mediation, survey reveals
Eastern Libyans believe in national unity, distrust AU and Turkish mediation, survey reveals
The first free public opinion poll ever conducted in Libya shows that Eastern Libyans trust the Transitional National Council, firmly believe in national unity and dont see the African Union or Turkey as neutral mediators.

The survey was conducted among 1,758 residents in the liberated east of Libya by the Research and Consultation Center of Garyounis University in Benghazi.

Respondents included both men and women (though the female voice is underrepresented, with only 28 percent participation), young and old, of all education levels (though with an overrepresentation of higher education graduates) and inhabitants from Ajdabiya and Benghazi all the way to Derna and Tobruk.

The Garyounis center can claim credit to conducting Libyas first major, free, public opinion poll for the first time in 42 years, if not the countrys history.


Boom. Public polling is a huge, massive, thing. It is denied in totalitarian states for obvious reasons.
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. Wow, we've been waiting, hoping for this.
Now that it's happened I don't know what to say.

They had the good grace and intellectual honesty to admit the poll's shortcomings.

The anti-Gaddafi sentiment in the east had been estimated (educated guesses) by a few observers at about 90%. Turns out they were wrong. It's 95%.

The support for partition or for AQ seems to be wholly a concoction by the coalition of the fearful.

It's even more one-sided than I had judged, but I suppose I'm in good company with that.

Some parts of GD are not going to like this. A meme is a terrible thing to waste.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
51. Well, This is Something to Go On
I estimated support for the rebels at 80-90% a couple of weeks ago on another thread. I was criticized for not having a source.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
32. Free media blooming in Benghazi
Free media blooming in Benghazi
Writers, cartoonists and musicians have been taking their work to the public after a popular uprising shook off decades of autocratic rule and state media dominance in the east, which the pro-democracy forces largely control.

Vibrant graffiti covers the walls in the revolutionary stronghold of Benghazi, rap songs attacking Gaddafi blare from speakers, and there is a crop of new media outlets. Two radio stations, a television station and about a dozen newspapers and magazines have so far been licensed by the Benghazi-based revolutionary national council, Mohammed Fannoush, communication director for the councils media committee, said.

It is a very easy-to-get licence, he said, sitting in a spacious office in the former government building where much of the new media is based. They write their names and the type of newsletter or newspaper, and I okay it.

As the country is now at war, much of the newly released creative energy has been used to refute statements by the official media still under Gaddafis control and broadcast the aims of the uprising against his 41-year rule.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
33. Al Jazeera reports more airstrikes in Tripoli...
More bombings are taking place in the capital Tripoli following the attack on Gaddafi's compound. There have also been reports of continued attacks in Misurata and fighting in the Western mountains.

9:34am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...






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Yosarian71 Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. seems like there are better targets
With satellites, NATO should be able to find those rocket launchers outside Misurata. That should be the focus, both tactically and because those rocket launchers are firing indiscriminately, killing tens of civilians every day. Also, if those are knocked out, I think the surrounding area will be captured pretty quickly by the rebels.

NATO needs to do whatever it can to wipe out Gadhafi's forces in the desert by Ajdabiya and in the western mountains. Those are sparsely populated areas where the risk of civilian casualties from a NATO strike are low. Fire away.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
34. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 10:30 AM TUESDAY, APRIL 26
Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. The Last Witnesses

Source: Newsweek





War photographers Tim Hetherington and Chris Hondros were killed in Libya last week, telling a story no one wants to hear.



We depend on them for truth, for glimpses into human vileness, even as we cut their jobs and cut their space and treat their work as if its the most disposable part of the ever-shrinking media. When photojournalists Tim Hetherington and Chris Hondros were killed last week in Libya, it made you furious. First, furious at the madmen who took their lives. Then furious at a world so bloody fatigued by war that Tim and Chris were two of the last on the scene to see it to its horrible conclusion. War correspondentsin particular, combat photographershave always worked with their lives on the line. But in the last few decades the body count has risen dramatically. Since 1992, 861 journalists have been killed in the field, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. The worst years were 2006 and 2007, when more than 200 journalists died, most of them in Iraq. But this year is shaping up to be morbidly historic in its own right. Of the 21 media deaths so far this year, almost half were photographers or cameramen, many of them freelancers.

...


The deaths of two vital young photographers serve as reminders of mortalityand reminders, too, that in the chaos of war, not even the most experienced combat journalists are safe. On the murky front lines of contemporary conflicts, they are no longer considered untouchable observers but rather legitimate targets for kidnappings and killings. When something like this happens, of course I pause and think, is it worth it? says Lynsey Addario, a close friend of Hondros and a longtime war photographer who was captured with three New York Times journalists in Libya last month and held under often brutal conditions for days. Do people really care? Is it worth one of our lives? Is it worth anyones life?


Both Hetherington and Hondros would undoubtedly have answered yes. They were surely motivated by many things: wanderlust, the thrill of seeing history through the shutter, a curious feeling of comfort in conflict zones. But above all, say colleagues, they were driven by a sense of mission, dedicated to the principle of truth-through-proximity.

...


Both Hondros and Hetherington had begun to explore the possibility of life beyond combat photography. Hondros had become engaged a few months before. The last time I saw him was at his New Years party in Brooklyn, recalls Addario. Chris and I went off into the kitchen. He told me he was getting married. He was so excited. Matthew McAllester, a longtime war correspondent, says that Hetherington, too, had began to talk about how this kind of work fits in with having a family, which he was keen on doing.


But he would never find out.

...


http://www.newsweek.com/2011/04/24/the-last-witnesses.h...








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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
36. US orders embassy staff out of Syria


Updated 42 minutes ago

The US has ordered a partial evacuation of its embassy in Syria due to the increasingly volatile situation in the country.

Some US embassy personnel and all family members have been ordered to leave the country amid growing security concerns.

It comes as thousands of Syrian soldiers moved into the southern city of Daraa, opening fire on civilians.

...


A spokesman for president Barack Obama said additional economic sanctions were being considered and it was thought these might include the freezing of assets of senior Syrian officials.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/26/3200725.h...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
37. UN delivers humanitarian aid to Misrata


A ship chartered by the United Nations World Food Programme, WFP, has delivered more than 500 metric tonnes of food assistance, three ambulances, medical supplies and other relief items on behalf of humanitarian partners to the Libyan town of Misurata.

This is the second time this month that a WFP-chartered vessel has delivered food and relief to the people of Misurata. The ship delivered 350 metric tonnes of wheat flour on April 23 - enough to feed 23,000 people for one month.

It also offloaded 150 metric tonnes of mixed food including pasta, rice, potatoes; 84 metric tonnes of bottled water; 12 metric tonnes of medicines and three ambulances on behalf of UNICEF, and other international aid organisations.

11:27am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
39. Huge lines for gasoline have sprung up again in Tripoli and surrounding towns--The Guardian
The Guardian's Harriet Sherwood reports from Tripoli:


"Huge petrol queues have sprung up again in Tripoli and surrounding towns. I went to a town quite close to the Tunisian border called Zuwarah. There were massive queues of cars, five or six cars deep, and maybe half a kilometre long. And this was for petrol stations that were closed. I spoke to two guys who said they had both been waiting for five days. If Libya is running out of fuel that is a huge symbolic blow... People are very attached to their cheap fuel. That would have a big impact on morale."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
40. Syria: UK, France, Germany and Portugal working to send a "strong signal" to President Assad


According to the Press Association, the UK, France, Germany and Portugal are drawing up a draft statement on Syria which is being circulated at the UN, where Syria is to be discussed today. In his statement, Hague confirmed that Britain is working with others at the UN security council and the EU to send a "strong signal" to President Assad that he must halt violence against civilians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
41. 12 women & children reported killed, 57 injured in heavy bombardment on Misrata this morning#


LibyaFeb17_com 12 women and children reported killed and 57 injured in heavy bombardment on Misrata this morning - #libya #feb17 - http://t.co/nA3P0p0
8 minutes ago






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
42. Syria: "What is happening in the country is systematic killing"
From The Guardian's news blogs:

We have our own reports of gunfire in Deraa now, this time from Wissam Tarif, executive director of the human rights group Insan, who fears a massacre is taking place in the city and elsewhere. Within the last half an hour he overheard gunfire during a phone call to Deraa.


"Deraa has been surrounded by the army. I have just confirmed half an hour ago that there was live ammunition being shot in the old part of the city. I myself heard the live bullets on the phone. Lots of people were screaming and a lot of panic and shouting."

On reports of mutiny within the army, Tarif said: "We have been hearing this for the last four or five weeks. We have interviewed some of the families of soldiers who have been shot. In three cases families suspect that the soldier was shot by security forces for disobeying orders (to) shoot civilians. There is strong evidence that this might be happening, the question is at what scale? The two units employed in Deraa are very loyal to the regime."

He added: "The few foreign media journalist in Syria are not allowed to leave Damascus. So the Syrian regime has managed to isolate the rest of the country from the world. What is happening in the country is systematic killing. We are talking about an army surrounding a group of civilians with tanks and opening live ammunition. The absurd (thing) about this is that the international community has so far just used strong words but no action whatsoever. I don't understand why the UN security council hasn't referred this to the international criminal courts."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Syrian government spins unbelievable rationale for its actions
While human rights campaigners warn of systematic killing in Deraa, the government's mouthpiece, Sana, has a very different account of the army's action.

The state news agency says the army has been sent into quell "extremist terrorist groups" and that weapons have been seized. Other accounts suggest the protests have been peaceful.


In response to the calls for help from the citizens of Daraa and their appeal to the Armed Forces as to intervene and put an end to the operations of killings, vandalism, and horrifying by extremist terrorist groups, some Army Units entered Sunday morning, April 25th 2011, to the City of Daraa to restore tranquility, security and normal life to the citizens, an official army source declared.

The official source added that the Army Units, with the participation of security forces, are now chasing the said groups adding that the Army Units were able to arrest several members from the groups and confiscated huge quantities of weapons and ammunitions.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
43. NATO aircraft were observed flying over Misrata and heavy explosions could be heard
(Posted about 20 minutes ago.)

Wefaq Libya NATO aircraft were observed flying over Misrata and heavy explosions could be heard.

12:53:
http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/april-26th-updates /






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
45. Gaddafi regime used loophole in UN sanctions to import gasoline early this month


Libya imported gasoline from Italian refiner Saras in early April, taking advantage of a loophole in United Nations sanctions that permits purchases by companies not on a UN list of banned entities.

Three shipping sources with direct knowledge of the transaction told the Reuters news agency the cargo was delivered via ship-to-ship transfer in Tunisia before sailing to Libya.

Italian-flagged tanker Valle di Navarra arrived at the Tunisian port of La Skhira on April 3 and then transferred its cargo onto the Libyan vessel Anwaar Libya for shipment to Gaddafi-controlled western Libya, the shipping sources said. Saras declined to comment.

The shipment is legal under UN sanctions against Gaddafi's government because the buyer, Libya's General National Maritime Transport Company (GNMTC) which owns the Anwaar Libya, is not on a UN blacklist.

Libyan efforts to import fuel may be raised at a meeting in Washington on Tuesday when UK defence secretary Liam Fox meets his US counterpart, Robert Gates.

12:50pm:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...







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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
46. Mirage and reality in the Arab Spring
Source:Al Jazeera

Mirage and reality in the Arab Spring
If rebels start using violence, as has happened in Libya, then decades of turmoil could follow, professor argues.
Mark LeVine Last Modified: 22 Apr 2011 16:56

Reading the chronicle of the violence and death that have blanketed the western Libyan port city of Misurata during the last week, I couldn't help thinking of a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr.'s 1967 classic, Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it... adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars."

King understood the continued urgency of the struggle for equality. Similar to the situation today across the Arab world, promised reforms had yet to produce significant social change in 1967 indeed, they were being undermined by the country's rapid descent into the darkness of the Vietnam War.

But the expectations they raised did inflame the passions of those whose lives they'd failed to improve. "We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now," King declared. "This may well be mankind's last chance to choose between chaos or community."

...complete

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/04/20...


As a followup to yesterday's posts from tabatha, here is an article from Mark LeVine, another careful and thoughtful academic who I think deserves consideration and respect.

That's not to say he requires agreement, and I suppose I owe a reason as to why I don't agree.

Dr. King's argument was essentially moral, political, and literary. It wasn't based necessarily in history or the social sciences, where much of a better understanding of social trauma occurred after he was killed. If it did have some sort of absolute truth, the violence of the Roman Empire alone would have sent us spiraling to extinction.

My other objection is based more in linguistics, where we construct a reality from the assumptions embedded in the words we use. In this case those words are war and peace, violence and non-violence, justice and injustice. It's not as if there is a magical switch that flips between the two. Moreover, each of them is rooted in specific circumstances, specific events and actions by individuals, actions in a particular place and time. Since we must make abstractions, I'd prefer that we think of a continuum rather than polar opposites.

Here comes the big leap: lower levels of violence and injustice over a long time (which might be called peace) produce greater harm than more violence does over a very short time (which might be called war), not only because they still produce social trauma and generate injustice, but more so because they change the social structure and political culture. All of those take generations to overcome.

Think of our own civil war, as bad an example as I can find since it was as bad as civil wars get. The individual trauma lasted maybe three generations, half of the injustice of slavery maybe six, but we're still dealing with an aristocracy on Wall Street and a teabag straw boss in every break room. There's no sign it will go away soon at that. It's counter-factual history I know and I don't want to argue civil war history, but it simply says we did ourselves no great service by waiting for seventy years for slavery to go away peacefully.

To get back to Libya, what I'm saying is the best path for real peace is to get that family out of there as quickly as possible, with the minimum of death and trauma, and before it damages the fragile political culture and social structure being formed in the east and cities of the west. Then let the healing and search for justice begin.

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Yosarian71 Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. Just win
Great post by the way.

My opinion is that the rebels need to do whatever they need to do to win. In situations where non-violence was effective, such as with Gandhi and MLK, or in Egypt for that matter, the oppressor had a standard of morality that would not have tolerated violence. Furthermore, neither the British in India nor the whites in the Jim Crow south considered themselves immoral. So when faced with peaceful resistance, the oppressors had limited choices for response. A violent crackdown would have destroyed their credibility, which is exactly what happened in the south. As the body count piled up during the Civil Rights struggle, even white southerners started to turn on the Jim Crow laws. If, on the other hand, MLK promoted violent resistance, white southerners would have hardened their positions and northern whites would have abandoned the movement.

Egypt's ruling class also could not resort to widespread violence to crackdown. The intellectual and commercial elite would not tolerate it and the military would not follow those kind of orders. When Mubarak finally sent in his thugs anyway, his last vestiges of support within the military evaporated.

In Syria and Libya, nonviolent protest will not work. The rulers have no legitimacy to begin with, and the ruled have no expectation of morality from the rulers. So the rulers have nothing to lose by violently cracking down on protests. The economies are fundamentally patronage systems, and those that support the ruled are willing to kill to maintain their status with those systems. Violence is the only way to overthrow those type of governments.
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Dansk Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #49
81. I agree.
Thank you for this thoughtful and wise analysis. Right on!
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
104. Yes, thanks. the non-violent movements were perfect for their time and place
I suppose you might even say that the passive resistance against the Soviets went beyond non-violent protest and it was right for its time and place as well, whereas a violent and persistent uprising, say in the 1950's, would have invited annihilation and a wider war -something to be avoided with Syria.

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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
48. Video: Misrata Update April 25th
This is the translation for the video at the link:


Gaddafi forces bombarded Qasr Ahmed today (civilian area) as well as Misratas port, which led to th death of some civilians. As for the revolutionaries, they continued to clean the city today and clear the roads of destroyed tanks and vehicles. And we are collecting these destroyed vehicles in an area next to the citys courts district.

The environmental protection group is also removing dead bodies of mercenaries that were killed over the last few weeks. Because they are starting to decompose and this can cause problems later on. In fact, the same group is also preventing people from going to certain roads and areas in the city to prevent them from getting any disease from these bodies.

Revolutionaries are still surrounding Gaddafi brigades in the district of Aburwaya to the west of Misrata, as well as the airport to the south of the city. Right now, revolutionaries are also trying to fix the phone lines and electrical transformers and transmission lines that were completely destroyed by Gaddafi brigades, to restore connections with the outside world.

We also lack clean/safe drinking water, and medicine, due to the large amounts of people that were injured due to Gaddafis fierce bombardment over the last couple of days. However, morale is increasing and people went out of their homes today to check their shops and some people even opened their shops to encourage others to do the same. However some people are prevented from doing this because as we said some streets have been closed off due to diseases, etc.

We still have to check some areas for booby traps and other dangerous things. We hear some NATO jets above us and explosions a few hours ago and we suspect these jets destroyed some of the missile launchers outside the city. We also heard that Gaddafi forces are preparing for an amphibious landing or an attack on Misrata using divers but we are prepared for anything and we are ready to deal with anything these brigades might do.

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/04/video-misrata-update-... /







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
50. Shelling of Misrata continues today...
The Guardian reports this tweet from the UK's Channel 4 News correspondent Alex Thomson aboard a ship heading toward Misrata:


Off coast of Misrata - thud of shelling clearly audible across calm, deserted waters #c4news
less than a minute ago via web
alextomo


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
52. Al Jazeera reports 3 rebel fighters killed in heavy shelling of Nalut by Gaddafi forces nt



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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
53. UNCONFIRMED REPORT VIA Military Information Council of Mount #Nefusa:
Freedom Fighters capture mercenaries in #Majabrp and other Gadafi forces raised white flags and surrendered. It appears that among those who surrendered were officers and soldiers from the Air Force who said that Gadafi's offensive experienced a substantial shortfall in the ranks of ground forces. This seemed to be further validated by the Gaddafi using his Navy for fighting in the desert, mountains and sand , the report said.

from Comments Section of Al Jazeera Blog
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. N.Africa, not Europe, shoulders Libya crisis-agencies
N.Africa, not Europe, shoulders Libya crisis-agencies
Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:12pm GMT

By Stephanie Nebehay

GENEVA, April 26 (Reuters) - Europe should help frontline Italy and Malta cope with people fleeing unrest in North Africa, but the Maghreb region itself has borne the brunt of Libya's crisis, aid agencies said on Tuesday.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy arrived in Rome on Tuesday looking to end a row over North African immigration and seeking a deal on tighter EU border controls with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi before taking joint proposals to EU partners.

Around 25,000 migrants, most from France's former colony Tunisia, have arrived in southern Italy so far this year, mainly aboard overcrowded boats landing on the island of Lampedusa.

But the vast majority of the 665,000 people, mainly migrant workers, who have fled Libya since February have crossed into Tunisia, Egypt, Niger, Algeria, Chad and Sudan, aid agencies say. Only 5,182 of them have reached Italy and Malta.

Emphasis added...complete...
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73P0YW20...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
55. Gaddafi forces pound Libyan towns

Source: Al Jazeera





Artillery fire continue to hit Misurata and Berber towns in the Nafusa mountain range as NATO bombs Gaddafi's compound.


Last Modified: 26 Apr 2011 08:41


Muammar Gaddafi's forces have pounded Berber towns in Libya's western mountains with artillery, rebels and refugees said.

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught, reporting from the Nafusa mountain range, said the rebels claimed to have gained ground in their fight against Gaddafi's army after NATO air strikes.

"A battle raged all day (on Monday). There are deaths on both sides but Gaddafi's forces retreated," our correspondent said from the remote region that is largely inaccessible to journalists.

...


Three rebel fighters were killed in the bombardment of Nalut, a town close to the borders with Tunisia.

...


More (w/ video):
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142...







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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
56. Gaddafi forces dig in around Brega oil town - rebel
UPDATE 1-Gaddafi forces dig in around Brega oil town - rebel
Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:30pm GMT

By Michael Georgy and Deepa Babington

AJDABIYAH, Libya, April 26 (Reuters) - The Libyan army has reinforced positions around the eastern oil town of Brega and dug in its long-range missile batteries to conceal them from attacks by NATO warplanes, a rebel army officer said on Tuesday.

Rebels intent on overthrowing Muammar Gaddafi fought battles with government loyalists for weeks after an uprising erupted in February, but fighting has reached stalemate on the desert road between Brega and Ajdabiyah, 80 km (50 miles) further east.

Insurgent fighters reported clashes in Brega last week. Comments by rebel officer Abdul Salam Mohammed suggested Gaddafi now had clear control of the town, which is home to a major oil exporting terminal.

"There are 3,000 government troops in Brega and the next two towns. They have been building up their presence," he told Reuters on the western edge of Ajdabiyah.

More...
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73P19920...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. You beat me to it
You rascal! :)

It looks like Gaddafi's forces are bracing for an eastward offensive by the Free Libyan Army from its positions at Ajdabiyah.


:hi:





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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Ah my first laugh of the day.
Still giggling. and a cough. and another. Try as I will with tiresome political theory, scouring all your sources I can think of, and posting beyond the speed limit, I still can't get you to go to sleep (yes, I can count). ok then, I'll not beg. I'll just take a brief afternoon nap (aka shameful). It was easier when your PC was sick. Rascal. Harumph. I've not been called that since yesterday, though it did happen late in the day.

Anyway, the surprising part to me was that it was only 3000 soldiers. All that would fit I suppose. Too bad none of it can be bypassed.


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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
57. Latest NATO update
Latest NATO update, covering first light 25/04/2011 - first light 26/04/2011:

Air Operations

Since the beginning of the NATO operation (31 March 2011, 08.00GMT) a total of 3,858 sorties and 1,606 strike sorties* have been conducted.

Sorties conducted 25 April: 133
Strike sorties conducted 25 April: 56

*Strike sorties are intended to identify and engage appropriate targets, but do not necessarily deploy munitions each time.

Key Targets and Engagements**

25 April:

In Tripoli: 1 intelligence complex.
In vicinity of Tripoli: 1 tank, 3 surface-to-air missile launchers, 3 infantry fighting vehicles, 1 rocket launcher and 1 vehicle depot.
In vicinity of Misurata: 1 surface-to-air missile training facility.
In vicinity of Sirte: 3 ammunition depots.
In the vicinity of Al-Khums: 2 tanks, 2 infantry fighting vehicles.

**Key Engagements are not intended to give a complete account of all targets which were engaged.

From Al-jazeera Live Blog Comments Section
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
59. Rebels tear down Ajdabiya's western gate
From Libya Live Blog - April 26

2:12pm
A short while ago, Al Jazeera's Sue Turton sent this report from the West Gate of Ajdabiya, a town that has fallen in and out of rebel hands:
Test and Video:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...

or video here:

Rebels tear down Ajdabiya's western gate
http://youtu.be/XeNPb10w2zw
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
61. U.S. SecDef Gates to meet today on Libya with his British counterpart


U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates will hold talks on the Libyan conflict in Washington Tuesday with his British counterpart, Liam Fox.

The Financial Times, quoting a senior British official, says one topic of discussion will be whether action can be taken to cut fuel supplies to the Libyan leaders armed forces.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/north/Russia...







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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
62. Syria: Despite its brutal crackdown, Syrian govt is all but certain to get on UN Human Rts. Council


Syria is one of four candidates selected to fill four Asian seats and as AP points out, Syria can lose only if diplomats find another candidate to enter the race or it fails to win a majority of votes in a May 20 election in the 192-member general assembly.

Thirteen human rights groups from the Arab world last week urged the Arab League secretary-general, Amr Moussa, to publicly denounce Syria's candidacy and to call on Arab states not to vote for Syria in the upcoming election. If Syria does get on the 47-nation Human Rights Council, it won't do the organisation's credibility much good.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...







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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
63. WRAPUP 4-U.S. and Britain to step up pressure on Gaddafi
Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:04pm GMT

By Lin Noueihed

TRIPOLI, April 26 (Reuters) - Britain and the United States plan to step up military pressure on Muammar Gaddafi on Tuesday, as the Libyan leader's army presses its bloody siege of the rebel-held city of Misrata.

More than a month of air strikes in a British and French-led NATO mission to protect Libyan civilians have failed to dislodge Gaddafi or bring big gains for anti-government rebels who hold much of east Libya, raising fears of a lingering stalemate.

British Defence Secretary Liam Fox and Britain's Chief of the Defence Staff General David Richards will meet U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. military's Joint Chiefs of Staff in Washington.

"The meeting will be about how we can put military pressure on the regime, and that will include the tooth and the tail -- the people pulling the trigger to kill civilians in Misrata and the people supplying them," a Ministry of Defence source said.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73P0O720...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Petrol shortages fuel frustration in Tripoli
Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:53pm GMT
TRIPOLI, April 26 (Reuters) - By day the streets of Tripoli are quiet and markets subdued, but tension is rising as petrol shortages force Libyans to queue at the pumps overnight.

Residents say scuffles are breaking out at petrol stations. Queues, hundreds of cars long, block streets. One resident said he queued all day on Monday only for the pump to run dry before his turn came.

"I've been here three days. I've been sleeping and waking in this line until it's my turn," said another resident, Mohammed al-Marini, who was a few cars away from reaching the pump.

"I tried other stations but they were empty. I thought this one was better organised."

The government of Muammar Gaddafi cut the price of petrol from 0.2 dinars ($0.169) a litre to 0.15 a litre early in the crisis, but anger over shortages is rising among Libyans long accustomed to subsidies from the state, which produced 2 percent of the world's oil supply before the war.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73O0HE20...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. Waiting time for gasoline in Tripoli: up to three days, residents tell us.
fpleitgenCNN Frederik Pleitgen
#libya Waiting time for gasoline in Tripoli: up to three days, residents tell us.
vor 7 Minuten

http://twitter.com/#!/fpleitgenCNN
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. EXCLUSIVE-Libya imports gasoline from Italy's Saras -sources
Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:27am GMT
By Jessica Donati and Emma Farge

LONDON, April 26 (Reuters) - Libya imported gasoline from Italian refiner Saras in early April, taking advantage of a loophole in United Nations sanctions that permits purchases by companies not on a U.N. list of banned entities.

Three shipping sources with direct knowledge of the transaction said the cargo was delivered via ship-to-ship transfer in Tunisia before sailing to Libya.

Italian-flagged tanker Valle di Navarra arrived at the Tunisian port of La Skhira on April 3 and then transferred its cargo onto the Libyan vessel Anwaar Libya for shipment to Gaddafi-controlled western Libya, the shipping sources said.

Saras declined to comment.

The shipment is legal under U.N. sanctions against Gaddafi's government because the buyer, Libya's General National Maritime Transport Company (GNMTC) which owns the Anwaar Libya, is not on a U.N. blacklist.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73I0PK20...
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Yosarian71 Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. They are going to step up pressure now?
What were they doing before? This war has been going on 2 months, and over 10k are dead. If there was a military card to play, it should have been played already. I assume this is just sloppy writing by Reuters, but reading that on its face, you have to ask WTF?

Maybe the delay in the rebels' ultimate victory is because of all the weapons western nations have sold Gadhafi over the years.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. I have been frustrated with the pace of NATO from the get go.
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 03:39 PM by tabatha
However, there may be issues that they do not publicize in case Gaddafi makes use of them - i.e. poor information assets.
They did not have AWACS planes up for very long before the UN surveillance started.

By now, they should have enough knowledge of what is where, to really step up the pressure.

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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
65. Fighting erupts on the outskirts of Misrata, witness says
Fighting erupts on the outskirts of Misrata, witness says
By the CNN Wire Staff
April 26, 2011 -- Updated 1334 GMT (2134 HKT)

(CNN) -- Conflict seethed on the outskirts of battle-scarred Misrata Tuesday, and Libyan government forces launched strikes on the besieged city, a witness told CNN.

The witness reported street fighting and confrontations between pro- and anti-government forces in the suburbs and said the pro-Gadhafi strikes came from 12 to 18 miles away from the city.

However, the witness said, the city center is calm. There's no street-to-street fighting in the urban cauldron and Tripoli Street, the city's main boulevard, is clear, the witness said.

Misrata has been the scene of some of the deadliest battles of the war as rebels attempt to oust Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who has been in power for more than four decades.

more...
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/26/libya.wa...

video report...
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/04/25/bpr.libya...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
66. UPDATE 1-Gaddafi forces dig in around Brega oil town - rebel
Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:30pm GMT
By Michael Georgy and Deepa Babington

AJDABIYAH, Libya, April 26 (Reuters) - The Libyan army has reinforced positions around the eastern oil town of Brega and dug in its long-range missile batteries to conceal them from attacks by NATO warplanes, a rebel army officer said on Tuesday.

Rebels intent on overthrowing Muammar Gaddafi fought battles with government loyalists for weeks after an uprising erupted in February, but fighting has reached stalemate on the desert road between Brega and Ajdabiyah, 80 km (50 miles) further east.

Insurgent fighters reported clashes in Brega last week. Comments by rebel officer Abdul Salam Mohammed suggested Gaddafi now had clear control of the town, which is home to a major oil exporting terminal.

"There are 3,000 government troops in Brega and the next two towns. They have been building up their presence," he told Reuters on the western edge of Ajdabiyah.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73P19920...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
67. Gaddafi skit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1W2t7ijygA

(Wish there were a translation)
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
68. On a lighter note...
Syria: A spoof Twitter feed called SyrianPresident with a picture of Bashar al-Assad has this:


Why can't we all take a little break in #Syria this Friday, and watch the royal wedding?
less than a minute ago via Twitter

Bashar al-Assad
SyrianPresident


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/apr/26/libya-...






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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
69. Libyan Rebels Under Siege Despite Successes
The Libyan city of Misratah is still being battered by artillery fire after the rebels pushed Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's forces out of the centre.

Despite the celebrations of "victory" after government troops pulled back from key areas in Libya's third largest city, the rebels fear a counter-attack could be attempted in the coming hours.

Sky's Alex Crawford, reporting from Misratah, said: "The rebels tell us the port area has been shelled from three sides by Gaddafi's forces. There appears to be a large fire.

"The rebels have also told us that their spotters have seen a convoy of suspicious vehicles, which they believe are Gaddafi vehicles.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-Libya...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
71. Children, Women now demonstrating in Misrata demanding info regarding disappeared loved ones


feb17voices: AJA: Children and Women now demonstrating in Misrata demanding information regarding disappeared loved ones #libya #feb17
about 1 minute ago






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
73. NATO denies strike was an attempt to assassinate Gaddafi



By Edward Cody and Simon Denyer, Tuesday, April 26, 9:58 AM


PARIS The commander of NATO operations in Libya said Tuesday that alliance bombers attacked a large government compound in Tripoli on Monday to destroy command and control nodes, and not to assassinate Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi.

The assertion, by Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard, the Canadian national who commands NATOs Operation Unified Protector, was designed to refute accusations by Libyan officials that the aim of a strike early Monday was to assassinate Gaddafi in violation of international law.

This is about command and control nodes and not about individuals, Bouchard said in a briefing Tuesday streamed over the Internet in which he summed up the allied air campaign that began March 19.

...


Bouchard said Tuesday, however, that the compound was essentially military. In addition to offices, the buildings contained communications gear, he said, that was used to transmit orders to loyalist Libyan forces to carry out immoral, indiscriminate and illegal military attacks on civilians in rebel-held areas such as the besieged city of Misurata.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato_denies_strike_...








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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
74. Not smart: British minister Liam Fox calls for US attacks to target Muammar Gaddafi
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 10:50 AM by tabatha
FORCES loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi last night attacked the besieged port of Misratah, wounding African refugees and forcing a humanitarian ship to stay out to sea.

The breach of a regime's own ceasefire in the western city came as British Defence Secretary Liam Fox was to hold talks in the US over the bombing of command and control centres that could be sheltering Gaddafi.

As the allies desperately searched for an endgame in Libya, several Grad rockets hit the port 12km east of Misratah and an International Organisation for Migration ship come to rescue refugees stood offshore as a security precaution. Khalid Abu Falra at the city's main hospital said "several refugees had been wounded in the bombardment. "There may be deaths - we have no details for the moment," Dr Falra said.

Warplanes from NATO were overflying Misratah, 215km east of Tripoli, where explosions were also heard after a 24-hour period of relative calm. "NATO asked that the IOM boat leave the port," said a rebel source, adding that "around 20 vehicles" containing Gaddafi goons were approaching.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/british-mini...

Liam Fox is not helping matters to make statements like that.

On edit:
Tweet update
RT @ChangeInLibya: Misrata: NATO is bombing Gaddafi forces in Misrata's eastern districts now after an attempt by the latter to take control of the port #libya
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. The National Transitional Council (NTC) welcomes Russias call to to stop the bloodshed

Posted on April 25, 2011 by admin_
The National Transitional Council (NTC) welcomes Russias call to the Gaddafi regime to stop the bloodshed and suffering of the civilian population in Libya. The Vice Chairman of the NTC, Mr. Abdul Hafeez Ghoga, expressed his gratitude to the Russian Foreign Minister for his comments:

Mr. Lavrov has shown clear support for the protection of the civilian population in Libya. We call on Mr. Lavrov to continue supporting a UN blue helmets mission on the ground.

The situation in Misrata continues to be a humanitarian disaster in every sense of the word. Reports shows that the city is in dire need of food and medicine, and the creation of a safe passage for the distribution of these goods.

http://ntclibya.org/english/2011/04/25/the-national-tra...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
76. Saudi women seek voting rights
Sara Abbar knew what would happen when she and her 28-year-old daughter tried to register to vote in Saudi Arabia's municipal elections. The vote, set for September, ruled out in advance any participation by the country's 9-million women.

"We will keep trying again and again until we get our right," she said after meeting a resolute "no" from the election official she encountered at a voter registration centre in Jeddah when registration began on April 23.

"The demand for our rights should never be postponed so we will continue calling for them."

The municipal council elections, only the second such experiment in more than 40 years, highlight the contradictions that arise when an absolute monarchy rooted in austere religious authority dabbles in democracy.

http://mg.co.za/article/2011-04-26-saudi-women-seek-vot...
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
77. Ajdabiyah: Green arches of western gate torn down (believed used by regime forces to direct fire)
An Al Jazeera correspondent, Sue (Turton), reported from what was the western gate of Ajdabiya, where rebel forces reportedly pulled down the green arches of the gates to the town, saying that they believed Colonel Qaddafis forces had been using them as a means to pinpoint the rebels position. Ms. Thornton reports that the rebels tell her they are receiving more weapons and training from foreign military advisers, who have arrived from Britain, France and Italy.

9:31 A.M.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/updates-on-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
78. Fighting erupts on the outskirts of Misrata, witness says
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

NEW: Report of three Niger refugees killed in shelling

Contact Group to meet again on May 5, Hague says

Government forces launch strikes on Misrata, a witness says




By the CNN Wire Staff
April 26, 2011 12:27 p.m. EDT


(CNN) --

...


At least three people were killed and 14 injured when shelling by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's forces hit a tent of refugees from Niger, according to hospital sources and Marie Colvin, a foreign affairs correspondent for the Sunday Times of London who is in Misrata.

...


"As fighting continues to rage in Misrata, the families recently evacuated by boats to Tobruk from the embattled city describe a catastrophic situation with many having lived in fear of indiscriminate shelling. Many houses and buildings have been destroyed and some families had to move several times," the U.N. refugee agency said Tuesday.

The U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees said parts of the city have lacked electricity and water and people have been hiding in their homes for two months "before seizing the opportunity of a lull in fighting to get to the harbour and board a boat."

"Sniper fire, street clashes and shelling have prevented people from venturing outside of their homes to get food and medicine," the agency said.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/04/26/libya.war/in...








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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
79. NATO Says It Is Broadening Attacks on Libya Targets

Source: New York Times




By THOM SHANKER
Published: April 26, 2011


WASHINGTON NATO planners say the allies are stepping up attacks on palaces, headquarters, communications centers and other prominent institutions supporting the Libyan government, a shift of targets that is intended to weaken Col. Muammar el-Qaddafis grip on power and frustrate his forces in the field.


Officials in Europe and in Washington said that the strikes were meant to reduce the governments ability to harm civilians by eliminating, link by link, the command, communications and supply chains required for sustaining military operations.


The broadening of the alliances targets comes at a time when the rebels and the government in Libya have been consolidating their positions along more static front lines, raising concerns of a prolonged stalemate. Although it is too soon to assess the results of the shift, a NATO official said on Tuesday that the alliance was watching closely for early signs, like the recent reports of desertions from the Libyan Army.

...


On Tuesday, Lt. Gen. Charles Bouchard, the operational commander of the NATO mission, told reporters at his headquarters in Italy that alliance intelligence officers were picking up reports of Libyan government soldiers abandoning their positions. We are well aware of troops not reporting for duty, he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/27/world/middleeast/27st...








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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
80. Fighting in besieged Libyan city (& heavy shelling by Gaddafi's forces) rages on
Posted in LBN (I have to say, there's a response in there that is probably the nuttiest I've seen so far): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. I trust your sources for any claim.
I've been afk for dinner, but see almost nothing new on the feeds, twitter, blogs. It's an uneasy feeling.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
82. Juan Cole: Misrata Reprieved
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
85. Rocket attack, shelling on Misurata port
7:14pm
AFP - At least three people have been killed when forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi fired rockets at the besieged city's port, according to medics and a journalist.

A medical source also confirmed there had been three dead and also spoke of "around 20 wounded".

7:13pm
Al Jazeera's Andrew Simmons, reporting from Misurata, said heavy shelling by pro-Gaddafi forces continues in the city's port.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...

From earlier:

2:23am
A devastating report from Al Jazeera's Andrew Simmons on the state of Misurata, where, as our correspondent says, "Nowhere is safe in Misurata." :
http://youtu.be/LS-tdXN_ETU
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
86. Libya wants African leaders to discuss air strikes
Libya wants African leaders to discuss air strikes

By Aaron Maasho
ADDIS ABABA | Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:20pm EDT

(Reuters) - Libya called on the African Union on Tuesday to hold an emergency summit meeting to discuss how to deal with western air strikes.

Foreign Minister Abdelati Obeidi accused the west of aiming "to punish Africa through Libya" and to "steal its wealth and colonize it again."

He told the Peace and Security Council of the 53-nation AU in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa the organization should invoke a mutual defense pact in response to western air strikes.

"My delegation proposes the holding as soon as possible of an extraordinary session of the Assembly of the Union," he said.

More...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/26/us-libya-au-i...

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fivepennies Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
87. After reading so many of the
so-called anti-imperialist commentaries on various threads, I'd guess some people are just mis-informed but it sounds like more than a few people around here may actually FEAR the potential for a vibrant democracy cropping up in Libya. Why that would be I haven't a guess.

But the rebels working for PNAC? I about fell off my chair. If anyone is furthering PNAC's goals by dragging the US military into another long drawn out unwinnable war, it would be the Gadaffi gang. He and his children could have stepped aside peacefully and lived out their pitiful lives in obscene wealth. But no. And the very people here and elsewhere who claim so loudly to be anti-PNAC seem to be defending bloody massacres against civilians, lobbing word missles of their own at the revolutionaries who are bleeding and dying to gain the human rights Americans feel they, themselves, are entitled to.

It makes me ill.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
88. Putin: Libya Coalition Has No Right To Kill Gaddafi
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 04:02 PM by Mimosa
Putin says the coalition against Libya has no right to kill Gaddafi. Can anybody argue that he is wrong? There was absolutely no 'proof' Gaddafi committed 'crimes' against anybody. What he did do what threaten to nationalise Libya's oil fields and leave OPEC. He was following the example of Hugo Chavez.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110426/tts-uk-russia-puti...

Excerpt:


"They said they didn't want to kill Gaddafi. Now some officials say, yes, we are trying to kill Gaddafi," Putin said on a visit to Denmark. "Who permitted this, was there any trial? Who took on the right to execute this man, no matter who he is?"

Putin was speaking as Britain and the United States discussed stepping up military pressure on Gaddafi, who has survived more than a month of NATO air strikes.

"The country's whole infrastructure is being destroyed, and in essence one of the warring sides is attacking under the cover of aircraft," Putin said at a news conference after talks with his Danish counterpart Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen.

"When the entire so-called civilised community falls upon a small country with all its might, destroys infrastructure created over generations -- I don't know, is that good or not?" Putin said. "I don't like it."

Much more at link:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110426/tts-uk-russia-puti...


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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. Gaddafi was not the target.
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 04:32 PM by tabatha
Command and control systems, which happen to be in Gaddafi's compound, were the target.


NATO denies Gaddafi assassination attempt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP6B3ZOnfWk&feature=play...
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
102. Thanks for posting this
I was waiting for the Reuters wrapup version, but yours does nicely.

UPDATE 3-Putin: Libya coalition has no right to kill Gaddafi
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73P1PB20...

There's another one here to post or to follow to see if it develops into an accurate or worthwhile story:

Chavez says Libyan officials in Venezuela
Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:29pm GMT

CARACAS, April 26 (Reuters) - A delegation of Libyan officials is in Venezuela to discuss possible peaceful solutions to the war in the North African country, Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez said on Tuesday.

Chavez is a close ally of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and has proposed talks between rebels and the government.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN2629001120...


Somewhere here we have some fairly large lists of national assets Gaddafi & Sons were privatizing in 2009 and into 2011 if you are interested. I never bought into the idea that he was a golden anti-imperialist. It seems to me there's ample evidence he simply played both sides against the middle (and did it with great skill), but always served his own narrow purposes, either by violence, or coercion, or cash. Libyan people are certainly tired of being played, and in my book self-determination trumps ideological purity any day.

Good night all from GMT+2.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #102
118. +1
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
89. Feb17Info Live!: The Libyan Exchange
The Feb17.Info team would like to unveil our latest endeavor: Feb17Info Live! A broadcast program produced by the Libyan youth to present and discuss the on-going events in Libya. The program will also provide a platform to take questions from you, the viewers, about the fluid and sometimes confusing situation in Libya. Bringing you interviews from within Libya as well as experts on the revolution, Feb17Info Live will be an interactive feature connecting the outside world and the Revolution.

Our first program, The Libyan Exchange, will air on our website, www.feb17.info, this Sunday, May 1, 2011 at 2pm EST/6pm GMT. Our guest will be Dr. Tarik Yousef, a fellow at the Brookings Institute and Dean of the Dubai School of Government. Our topic is What Makes Libya Different? Why did the Arab Spring turn so violent when it reached Libya after having been relatively peaceful in neighboring Tunisia and Egypt?

During our show wed love to take your questions, here is how to send them in. You can email your questions to feb17questions@gmail.com . So that we have enough time to go through as many questions as possible please limit your question to 400 characters; roughly a paragraph. Please also include your location and the name you wish to be called. As our program is in English, please make sure your question is as well. The cut off for sending in questions is Saturday April 30,2011 at 9:00pm EST. We encourage you to send your question in early.

We hope you send in your questions and tune in!

http://feb17.info/news/feb17info-live-the-libyan-exchan...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
90. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. If you find these annoying, do not click on the thread.
This is a democracy - exercise your free will.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. You may have noticed or not
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 04:27 PM by tabatha
most of the comments on these threads are sourced from news organizations from all over the world - i.e. these threads are more like news aggregators rather than originators of news or editorial opinions.

On edit:

People can make up their own minds about what they want to believe or not. The biggest propagandist in this whole entire affair is shown in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McjsU-WTnNk&feature=yout...

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #94
113. People are easily swayed by actual, real, propaganda.
You know, things like "the rebels are al-Qaida." This topic is for hard news reports and credible leftist blogs (with the occasional tweet every now and again). Not unsubstantiated neo-stalinist-style innuendos and slanders.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. And of course Gaddafi was the first to throw out the Al Qaeda accusation
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 09:42 PM by MedleyMisty
Unless you think that the American imperialists control everything in the world, every video and tweet and picture and news report and article, these threads are a pretty good source of the truth. And I've noticed that if we think something is sketchy or has ulterior motives, we'll make a note of that when we link it. And the tweets are generally followed by a warning that it's a tweet and to wait for confirmation - I'll admit it took me a while to learn that myself. ;)

Only links I've seen used to back up conspiracy theories are editorials by uninformed ideologues or rather dubious sources, like Louis Farrakhan. Who won Gaddafi's human rights prize a few years ago, btw. But yeah - I have yet to see any hard evidence of a conspiracy. Plenty of evidence that the Libyans rose up against Gaddafi after being inspired by Tunisia and Egypt and then found themselves in need of help, though.

(more a response to the post you were responding to than to your post, Josh - just used the Al Qaeda rebel thing as a lead in)
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. The 'hide thread' feature takes only milliseconds to click...
perhaps a wee bit longer should you have a slower mouse. Then it's just a matter of clicking back into the forum list.

I use it frequently for those topics that bother, disturb, or aggravate me.

There is also ignore user if it's really annoying.

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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. thanks, i'm aware of those features. i prefer not to block any sort of info/data. nt
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Better to curse the darkness than light a candle, huh?
I'd rather light the candle; I hate stubbing my toes.

Different strokes...

/end of 'fortune cookie wisdom'

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Yosarian71 Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #90
105. One request
Could you provide more substance and fewer condescending insults in your posts? Thanks in advance.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. Probably won't happen.
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 06:41 PM by tabatha
The people who fear these threads, fear open discussion i.e. freedom of expression and choice.

There are plenty of posts on GD that provide an alternative point of view, and these threads do not always post news items supportive of the rebels.

If there is intolerance for more than one opinion, then it demonstrates a decidedly undemocratic frame of mind. Which is exactly what (democracy) the rebels are fighting for - many opinions from all of Libyans as opposed to the single one of Gaddafi.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. Correct. It reminds me of the "anti-Rebel" 'journos' who sympathized with the minders of all things.
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 07:04 PM by joshcryer
Granted, there are journalists I highly respect, like Fisk, who have been neutral on the use of minders, but actually sympathizing and defending their use? He'd never do that.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. wtf is "minders"? sounds like something out of the Harry Potter books

(or True Blood movies)
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Seriously?
Are you seriously asking that question or are you being cheeky? Impossible to tell these days. Just look it up if you're serious, I don't know whether to waste my time explaining what minders are.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. The term has been in use for at least many decades
I remember it being used a lot during the Cold War. Here's one definition:


Noun 1. minder - someone (usually in totalitarian countries) who is assigned to watch over foreign visitors; "I turned around and there, a few hundred feet away, was our government minder, Li Wong Su, huffing and puffing toward us"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/minder



Referring to Libya, the term is used particularly to describe the government officials without whom foreign journalists are not permitted to travel.







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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. thanks, i appreciate. i guess, my only excuse is that i'm about a generation younger
than an "average DUer" (if there is such a thing as an average DUer).

but seriously, i've never heard the term before.


"Referring to Libya, the term is used particularly to describe the government officials without whom foreign journalists are not permitted to travel."

Well, I don't know what to say... obviously, we hang out in different circles.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Here's the Iraq report with Robert Fisk about Iraq's minders (they were much more benign...
...than Gaddafi's): http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/robert-fisk-int...

Man this brings back a surge of memories. It does appear that he didn't like Iraq's minders even though they did let him walk around without them. Forgive me for forgetting those details from 8 years ago when I was probably your age. ;)
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. The reporting from Libya has been full of references to the regime's minders
A wide variety of media sources (Sky News, Channel 4 News, The Guardian, The Telegraph, CNN, NBC News, etc.) have described how all members of the foreign press in Tripoli are confined to one hotel; how, when they attempt to leave the hotel, they are stopped by the guards; and how, when they are allowed to leave, it is only with a government minder (in front of whom many Libyans will not speak openly to the foreign press).

The accounts have been very interesting. Many of the journalists there have provided accounts of their personal experiences with the minders--including occasions when they were able to give their minders the slip and, if caught, were arrested and detained before being either returned to the hotel or deported.







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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. Every time I see a report from Tripoli they always mention the minders that are restricting them
I guess you can't have watched or read any reports from Tripoli?

Here's a really good example:

The State of Play in Libya - Gaddafi Style
Sunday 24 April 2011
5:00 pm

To break the monotony of our enforced confinement in Tripolis Rixos al-Nasr Hotel, the Channel 4 News crew decided it was important to indulge, once a day, in some proper escapism. For six nights, we watched episodes of the old BBC series State of Play a pacey conspiracy thriller about journalists.

It was a cruel choice. We all got hooked on a story about investigative reporters. We, on the other hand, were being herded around like goats all day by our government minders and force fed Libyan government propaganda all night in the confines of our hotel. We decided we had to do some proper digging of our own.

So that night, we hatched an escape plan.

Getting past the phalanx of armed guards at the gates of the Rixos sans government minder is hard, but wed obtained a contact who claimed to be a rebel fighter in the heart of the capital and we were determined to meet him. If he was prepared to take the risk, so were we.

Full article & video report: http://blogs.channel4.com/world-news-blog/the-state-of-...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. It would be journalistically irresponsible to have *any* report in Tripoli without that note.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #120
125. Here's the reference I was referring to about 'journos' sympathizing with the minders.
Gaddafi violence against Libya civilians exaggerated, says British group
They expressed sympathy for the Libyan regime's restrictions placed on foreign media, which is not allowed to leave the Rixos without a government official and whose movements, even with minders, are highly circumscribed.

"One of the reasons you are being locked up is because your independence is being questioned," Roberts said.

"It's an obvious point - the (Libyan) government feels it is in a war situation, and feels the western press is facilitating this," said another, implying that the media might call in co-ordinates for airstrikes to Nato.


And people wonder why I call these people totalitarian, well I've been watching what's going on, and it ain't pretty. Not one bit.

Ironically the minders themselves are showing sympathies for the rebels! So here we have westerners defending paid escorts that control your every movement, who themselves do not see the regime lasting very long. Quaint, really.

Forget Freedom
In a relaxed conversation about football, one of the younger minders quietly said to me Gaddafi is bye byejust a question of what happens first, his money runs out or the soldiers run out. I was taken aback.

...

On the day I left the Rixos, I said goodbye to one of the minders who I had always thought had reservations about being there. Youre leaving? Youre a lucky man he said the day they pay me Im gone, thats the only reason Im still here.
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps? :)
I noticed that 'Forget Freedom' report. It seems to be yet one more indicator of Gaddafi's supporters abandoning him.

The U.S./UN/NATO strategy of applying the maximum pressure practicable on the Gaddafi regime appears to be working. It's tough, with the carnage that's going on, to have the patience to allow it to work. But that, along with the new AU initiative, may achieve a resolution of the Libya crisis.







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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #90
112. About 45 days, I think, not the full 68.
I'm actually in a groove now so 45 days, 68 days, won't matter. I expect it to go to 180+ days, that's how long it took the Ivory Coast.
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
97. Kick and Recommend.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
100. Report from al Mjabra near Nalut
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 04:25 PM by tabatha
http://audioboo.fm/boos/341240-lpc-jadou-english-revolu...

LPC #Jadou: Revolutionists were able to push out Gaddafi forces occupying al Mjabra #libya #feb17

On edit from Twitter:

jfweber‎ RT @ChangeInLibya: Nafousa Mountains: Revolutionaries are gaining ground in west & have liberated another city but YEFREN is in a very dire situation #libya

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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
101. The Vulture Club
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 04:53 PM by tabatha
Tim Hetherington was a member of a special, close-knit brotherhood: people who work in war zones.
BY PETER BOUCKAERT | APRIL 26, 2011

GENEVALast Wednesday, I was in Geneva chatting on Skype with my photographer, Andr Liohn, who was at the Misrata hospital in Libya. Andr was in the middle of telling me about a group of Ukrainian doctors who had been hit by a mortar round in the city when he suddenly went silent. Ten minutes later, he came back and wrote, in his broken English, "Man, a shit happened."

"Tim and Michael have been hit by RPG. Tim is really bad. Mike is fine. Guy also fine. But Tim is bad."

I was puzzled. Just two weeks before, my friend Tim and I had left eastern Libya, and he had said he wasn't going back. So I chatted back, "Tim who? Not Hetherington?" And then, at 16:58, the words I never wanted to see popped up from Andr: "Yes. He died now. Just now. Chris also bad." And that was how the first word of Tim's death, and the eventually life-ending injury of his fellow photographer Chris Hondros, reached the world: on Skype.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/26/the_vu...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
103. Tweets

DavidKenner‎ RT @ChangeInLibya: TRIPOLI BREAKING: NATO jets destroyed the Sidi Bilal naval base today, which is where Gaddafi was preparing to attack Misrata from #libya
Twitter - 1 minute ago

JUSTICEforALLPP‎ RT @ChangeInLibya: Tripoli: Sidi Bilal is also where Hannibal, Gaddafi's son is based & rumours that his office was completely destroyed in the attacks #libya
Twitter - 1 minute ago

jeejia‎ RT @ChangeInLibya: Misrata: People are relying on car batteries and other crude methods to watch TV & charge satellite phones amngst other things #libya ... - More
Twitter - 1 minute ago

tzv‎ RT @ShababLibya: An 86 year old man from yefren was beaten to death today by Gaddafi's thugs. This part of Libya needs much more media attention #Libya
Twitter - 1 minute ago
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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
106. A sign on the road between Ajdabiya and Brega:
The sign reads: "Beware of snipers." Photo: Reuters



http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
107. UN chief Ban Ki-Moon says the continuing imperative in Libya is to protect civilians
Below are excerpts from his remarks in New York on Tuesday:


Clearly, the Security Councils decisive and unified action has saved many lives. It is also clear that the Libyan regime has lost both legitimacy and credibility, particularly in terms of protecting its people and addressing their legitimate aspirations for change. The Libyan people want to determine their own political future. They must be given the chance to do so.

The humanitarian situation is growing increasingly urgent. This past weekend, the United Nations established a humanitarian presence in Tripoli similar to the one in Benghazi.

Meanwhile, our diplomatic efforts focus on securing a ceasefire and achieving a political solution. On Friday, my Special Envoy, Mr Al-Khatib, will travel once again to Benghazi.


12:32am:
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-...






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
108. CURRENT TIME IN LIBYA = 1:15 AM WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27
Libya time = EDT +6 hours, PDT +9 hours, GMT +2 hours






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pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:26 PM
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109. U.S. SecDef Gates rebuffs British counterpart's plea for more American military help in Libya


Fox appealed to Gates for more help to end the Libyan conflict and to topple Gaddafi. But Gates, who has resisted US involvement in Libya from the outset, rebuffed the plea. Fox denied he had gone to Gates with a specific shopping list that included the A10 tankbuster plane.

Obama agreed last week to deploy US drones in Libya but Fox and General Sir David Richards, the chief of defence staff, planned to ask the US to bring back low-flying A10 tankbusters, according to British government officials.

As residents in Misrata reported continued shelling of civilian areas by pro-Gaddafi forces, there is dismay in London and Washington over the lack of progress in the push to remove Gaddafi.

Gates and Obama have tried to minimise their involvement in Libya, given the country is already engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/26/libya-us-br...








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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:57 PM
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111. Day 69 here:
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