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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:40 AM
Original message
We must face overpopulation, some quotes
http://www.ginosaronglobalwarming.org/blog1.php/2010/04...
Dr. Matania Ginosar is an Environmental Scientist and Electrical Engineer. He has been manager of R&D in Advanced Electronics, a Manager of the Solar Energy Office of the California Energy Commission and a Manager of Wind Energy for the California Energy Commission. This blog contains his thoughts on environmental issues, mostly in the area of global warming and climate change.


We must face overpopulation, some quotes
by Ginosar

In the discussions about global warming we rarely focus on one of the most crucial issues that humanity faces- over population. It seems like a taboo subject. Not only have that, instead of thanking China's aggressive effort to cut its own population growth, most people condemned them for curtailing human rights. We see every thing from our own narrow perspective instead of the reality humanity is facing. The reduction by the leadership of China of some four hundred millions people is one of the greatest contributions to human welfare ever made.

I hope to write about the population explosion; in the meantime I copied the following from Wikipedia Quotes to help focus our attention.
Democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it. Convenience and decency cannot survive it. As you put more and more people into the world, the value of life not only declines, it disappears. It doesn't matter if someone dies. The more people there are, the less one individual matters.
Isaac Asimov
I am convinced that some political and social activities and practices of the Catholic organizations are detrimental and even dangerous for the community as a whole, here and everywhere. I mention here only the fight against birth control at a time when overpopulation in various countries has become a serious threat to the health of people and a grave obstacle to any attempt to organize peace on this planet.
Albert Einstein, letter, 1954

If government knew how, I should like to see it check, not multiply the population
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Population growth is the primary source of environmental damage.
Jacques Cousteau
Short of nuclear war itself, population growth is the gravest issue the world faces. If we do not act, the problem will be solved by famine, riots, insurrection and war.
Robert McNamara, Former World Bank President
Unlike plagues of the dark ages or contemporary diseases we do not yet understand, the modern plague of overpopulation is soluble by means we have discovered and with resources we possess. What is lacking is not sufficient knowledge of the solution but universal consciousness of the gravity of the problem and education of the billions who are its victims.
Martin Luther King, Jr., May 5, 1966
The greatest form of contraception is development.
Mahatma Gandhi
Overpopulation is one of the greatest threats to human nature
Joe Rogan
In the last 200 years the population of our planet has grown exponentially, at a rate of 1.9% per year. If it continued at this rate, with the population doubling every 40 years, by 2600 we would all be standing literally shoulder to shoulder.
Stephen Hawking
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guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. So what is your recommendation
for a solution?
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. One thing I do is donate every month to Planned Parenthood
another is, I never had kids, and I don't participate in the social conventions that encourage it.

But that's just my personal preference---
the more important thing is to support Planned Parenthood and any other organization you like that takes action on this issue, because unity and action are necessary to effect change.

NARAL and The Population Connection are two that come to mind immediately.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Back in the 40s both of my aunts were childless. That was in the days
when that was a big problem to everyone else. One had a serious heart condition and could not have children. The other just never got married and died at 45 from cancer. I was the beneficiary of all this since I became their "child" project. Often lived with one or the other all summer long.

I like the comments above from the poster as they are all so positive. No one demanding some kind of radical means to end the problem. That is the way to approach this issue if you want someone to listen. There have been posters who start the conversation by suggesting we let disabled babies die or limit medical care. That kind of approach is a turn off.

Thank one of the posters here for the organizations that are doing good work on this issue.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. For a start, encourage contraception and enable abortion when desired
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 12:01 PM by MH1
Discourage more than 2 children per household.

That won't be enough but it's a necessary start and would slow down the march toward catastrophe so maybe better solutions can be reached.

(and by 'abortion when desired' I mean abortion, not infanticide. The exact definition I'll leave to the legal beagles, but the line is sometime after the first trimester, that's for damn sure. And if we don't do it, at some point infanticide will be encouraged, or at least ignored, because the value of life will be almost nothing.)
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. After reading some of those things, along with some others,
I decided in 1965, when I was 20 years old, not to reproduce. I married a woman who was in agreement with that decision. Neither of us has reproduced. It was the only thing I could do that would be guaranteed not to make the problem worse. I also support Planned Parenthood and other organizations whose mission it is to reduce the rate of population growth to sustainable levels.

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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hi MineralMan :)
Thanks!

Hey, I gotta share a recent post I added to a good thread on this subject, just ..... because. Maybe you'll enjoy my little rants :)
(this and one just above it.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Whenever someone starts in on me for not having children,
I simply ask them how it's their business and leave. I don't have time to deal with stupid people. There's too much worthwhile stuff going on.

I made a personal decision. I leave others' personal decisions to them. Population is not one of the subjects I engage in in personal discussions. Only on places like DU. Personal stuff is personal stuff.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. yep. good response.
I don't get nosy comments and I don't impose my views on people --though I do discuss overpopulation if discussion goes in that direction.

Mostly people have never given me crap about not having kids, but then, I'm not reticent about my dislike of children. I've got a reputation as a rotten old bizatch to uphold. :P

(hmm, now that I think about it, when I get asked (rarely) why I don't have kids, sometimes I get a condescending attitude when I explain that I don't like them. Remarks like, "well it's good you know yourself" aren't necessarily negative at all, but sometimes there's an implied meaning, that the speaker is better than me because she has kids. If that happens again, hopefully I'll be aware now, and say something along the lines of your response.)
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. it is easier for a man
The woman catches hell it seems to me. I'm in the same situation as you are in. I've had many people ask me, "Is something wrong? Why don't you have any children?".

When I tell them why they still don't seem to "get it". Many people still believe that women were put here on earth to serve the man and belong home in the kitchen and should be popping out babies every 9 mos. or so. :grr:

I commend your attitude. I wish a lot more people were like you. It is personal stuff and it should stay that way. It is no one's business the "whys" of not having any children. It is rude to ask IMO. Oh well ...

:dem:

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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. personally, on the rare occasions when I get asked, I always share that I don't LIKE kids
for some it may be more personal than they'd like to tell, but for me, it's a way of saying, Women were NOT put here on earth to serve the man and stay home in the kitchen and pop out babies every 9 mos. or so.

It's part of how I stand up for my own individuality and for all other women's as well. My little personal participation in the political!
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I tell people what my late father had to say about it
My Dad lived in China for a few years at the end of WWII. He saw dead people on the street every morning that had froze to death during the night.

He used to query me by asking, "You know what the problem is don't you?". Answer: There are too damn many people, that is the problem.

My reasons were this concern of too many people as well as simply NOT wanting any children. Period. Lots of women have no maternal instincts, and I'm one of them. I don't hate kids but I'm not one who goes crazy every time they see a baby. Nope.

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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. the other reason often overlooked:
I've been talking with online groups about this for years, there are soooo many reasons why different people don't want children. Knowing the world can't handle 9 billion of us is the biggest reason of course. But my reason, personally, is that I do not want to give the next 80+ years to my child. People are getting little tastes now of what will happen.. bigger disasters, faster extinctions, dying forests and oceans.. these things will all get worse in the next few decades. It's already broken me what our species will do to this world, but I'm supposed to make a new little baby child of my own?

I'm horrified by the women I know who have new little babies, although I know the children will grow up with much harder hearts than mine.

& what about the tens of thousands of children who starve to death each day? I'm supposed to proudly create another one of the lucky 10% who will never in their life go hungry? How selfish. Oh do not let me get started on how selfish this is...
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Your post is very thoughtful and pragmatic
and I cannot disagree with a single point you have made.

It is selfish, I agree.

Why leave a toxic world to the next generation who will likely be plagued with ill health and other problem stemming from the unavoidable pollution and rape of the plant. :(

The disasters we now see are just a few of the numerous possibilities out there for others.

I have seen the rapid decline in the plant and animal world and it saddens me greatly.

The human toll is described as "cancer" as cause of death it seems to me.

I've lost all of my cousins - 4 brothers there were.

Two died of cancer in their 40's leaving behind widows with children.

The others had strokes - dead in their early 50's.

They never had a chance.

I fear my fate is no different.

I know I made the right decision. No doubts ever that are being reinforced the longer I live.

I try to find hope but it sure is difficult!

Thanks again for you very thoughtful reply.

CountAllVotes

:dem:

:kick:

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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Seems we're selecting for people who don't care
or think ahead.

That's how evolution works.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. "overpopulation is one of the greatest threats to human nature"?
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 10:24 AM by BOG PERSON
is that even a bad thing? i thought human nature is supposed to be kind of monstrous/violent/greedy etc?

anyway, population growth will eventually plateau. there's no point in worrying about it.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. that seems to be a typo on the part of the blogger
might be a second language issue, or just a mistake.

I do hope you're right, about population plateauing......
definitely you're right about not getting too bent out of shape. I mean, knowing where the line is between upset and doing something about it, and upset over things that I don't have the power to change
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Sal Minella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Problem is, it won't plateau until so many humans are starving, sick,
deranged and/or dying that they're no longer able to reproduce.

Reproduction is the way instinct fights threat of extirpation, but the body doesn't notice that the threat is coming from the number of other human bodies. The body doesn't reason.

And "humanity" simply disappears in the mass of animal struggle. The "sanctity of life" idea holds only as long as resources are sufficient to support the lives extant. After that point, it's like being locked up in a roomful of hungry rats.

The Catholic Church is (and will be) responsible for misery beyond our comprehension.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. not necessarily
look at the decline in birth rates in many OECD countries, for instance. that isn't because of animal struggle. maybe economic development will cause similar a similar outcome in the developing world.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. I think most people agree it is a problem, the question is what to do about it
obviously we could control it by force, but most would agree (myself included) that that would be worse than the affects of overpopulation.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. to repeat my post above, here are a couple of suggestions about what to do.
One thing I do is donate every month to Planned Parenthood

another is, I never had kids, and I don't participate in the social conventions that encourage it.

But that's just my personal preference---
the more important thing is to support Planned Parenthood and any other organization you like that takes action on this issue, because unity and action are necessary to effect change.

NARAL and The Population Connection are two that come to mind immediately.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Most of the population growth isn't in areas with planned parenthoods
even without PP we'd have a relatively low birth rate (higher than now, but low by world standards).

Most babies are born in the third world.

It's like going after pollution by ignoring all the top polluters and going after the little ones. Yeah it helps some, but misses most of it.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. And on those lines....
Education would play a major role in reducing the population.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ok, how?
People have known that education is a good solution to many problems for a while now. But that makes little difference against entrenched economic problems, traditional beliefs, and so on.

You can't drop an education on a country like you can with food aid. It requires a lot to sustain it.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. I never said there was a short term solution.....
It takes a long term commitment.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. let me correct you about Planned Parenthood and the rest of the world:
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 01:39 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/international...
Planned Parenthood International Program
Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) is dedicated to overcoming barriers to accessing reproductive health care and exercising reproductive rights by empowering this generation and the next, worldwide.

Since 1971, Planned Parenthood has been working in other nations of the world to ensure the reproductive health and rights of women and their families in some of the poorest places in the world. We are proud to be taking the Planned Parenthood mission global, supporting partner organizations that share our goals. Learn more about how we work.


Additionally, if you're looking for other actions, check out Care2.com
There is an activist section--newsletter--you can sign up for.

Many of the petitions and funds are for 3rd world countries. Education for women and girls, help for women survivors in war zones--studies show that help given to women cycles back to help the whole community, maternal health and family planning, efforts to stop child marriage.....

there is action that can be taken for third world nations.

And, as I'm thinking about it, Planned Parenthood particularly serves areas that ARE functioning at third world levels here in the U.S.---poor women, men and families in urban areas and rural depend on planned parenthood for reproductive health and contraception. And safe abortion when necessary.


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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. Every institution and organization we've built requires more people
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
22. quote to add:
Helen Keller - "Once it was necessary that the people should multiply and be fruitful if the race was to survive. But now to preserve the race it is necessary that people hold back the power of propagation. "

and E.O. Wilson - "Darwin's dice have rolled badly for Earth. It was a misfortune for the living world in particular, many scientists believe, that a carnivorous primate and not some more benign form of animal made the breakthrough."
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. Human overpopulation is a self-correcting problem.
At some point in the next couple hundred years (by some estimates 50, by others 250), the number of humans existing will exceed the ability of the planet to support them. In much of the world we've ALREADY passed this point, and the continued growth and maintenance of those populations is entirely dependent on imported food and supplies. As time goes on, more and more of the world will be dependent on food and other commodities generated by an ever-shrinking pool of exporting countries. At some point, the amount of food REQUIRED by importing countries will exceed the amount of food EXPORTED by others.

The problem, at that point, is fairly easy to define. Humans are not logical creatures. We never have been, and we quite possibly never will be. People aren't going to stop breeding simply because their government tells them to. So, we'll see widespread famine and death. If the starving countries are well armed, we'll probably see war (if your choices are "shoot the neighbor and take his food" or "watch your children die", humans have a fairly consistent response).

I've seen a few serious computer models done, and the results aren't pretty. Most agree with the U.N.'s prediction that we'll eventually plateau at 11-12 billion, but that may follow a short lived population spike of anywhere from 13-15 billion people. People like to blithely assume that our population will merely level off at some point, even though there is NO evidence suggesting that to be the case, and even though no species with population growth levels similar to ours has ever plateaued gracefully. The more realistic model is spike-crash-plateau. That die off, and the wars and social collapse that will accompany it, will be brutal for humanity.

:nuke:
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I fear you are right
:(

:cry:

That won't stop me from continuing to give to PP, though.

perhaps the radiation disaster will reduce fertility worldwide....

That would be nice, wouldn't it?


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