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There has been a lot of transgender bigotry around here the past few days.

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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:54 PM
Original message
There has been a lot of transgender bigotry around here the past few days.
I think most people, though, are unaware that they are being offensive and aren't intentionally making bigoted comments. But there are certain things to avoid when having a conversation about the trans community.

First, the term 'transgendered' is not how the community commonly refers to themselves. Using the past-tense of transgender implies that someone has completed sex reassignment therapy (SRT). Most trans people will never experience a completed transition due to how expensive the process is and because insurance doesn't cover the entire cost. Or they may simply chose not to engage in SRT. The choice is entirely up to the individual. Using phrases like 'sex change' should also be avoided due to its focus on the surgical aspect of SRT. Transitioning for trans people is more than just an alignment of their genitals with their gender.

Secondly, calling a trans man or trans woman 'not truly' or 'not entirely' female or male is extremely offensive to a trans person. Trans individuals run the spectrum of gender alignment and just because one doesn't 'pass' for their gender identity as well as someone else may 'pass' doesn't make them any less male or female.

Another thing to avoid is speculating whether or not a trans person is merely someone just cross-dressing to access a bathroom in order to sexually assault someone. This tactic has been used more and more over the past few years by anti-LGBT organizations to scare people to vote against trans-inclusive legislation. The main reason why the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) did not pass last year was because it was held-up by the right wing over bathroom language on how to accommodate trans people in bathrooms and changing rooms.

Again, I think most people have been acting in good faith and have been mostly sensitive to the trans woman attacked at the Baltimore County McDonald's. But moving forward, let's be more aware of the language we use and its possible implications.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the information.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. +1
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent OP. K&R.
Fuck zombie Jesus in his stigmata holes.
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. what's "a lot"?
I'm guessing a couple posts.

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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I counted over 10 in Just one thread alone
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 07:07 PM by FreeState
There were a lot of posts the last few days that were over the top disgusting and hateful towards the Trans community. DU has a history of problems when it comes to the Trans community. It has gotten a lot better than it use to be but there is a lot of work still to do on understanding and viewing our trans brothers and sisters as 100% equal even here on DU.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yes, by the same two people.

Please don't use the DM Chimera, I was a witness.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. How do you know what thread I'm talking about?
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 07:12 PM by FreeState
There were several and I did not post in any of them. But please do diminish the concerns of the GLBT community, were use to it.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. Oh please. Don't pull that crap, it doesn't work on me.
I haven't 'diminished' anyone's 'concerns'. What I do is point out to the hand-wringers and outrage-junkies that DU is 99.9999% friendly to everyone who isn't a fascist or ignoramus in some form.

I don't just talk either.
I'll prove it;

NAME one DUer that has expressed some form of intolerance for the GLBT community.

No, Not here in this thread... that would be 'against the rules'. PM me and I'll happily research that person's posts and have an earnest discussion about their motives and/or shortcomings. That way, we can have a record of discussion which can be put on display without having to name anyone.

But you won't, because you really are all about creating the facade of persecution on one of the most GLBT friendly sites on Earth.

But we'll see. The gauntlet is thrown. Pick it up or fail.
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The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. The Doctor
You imply that there hasn't been any form of discrimination or "form of intolerance" against the LGBT community, using the phrase "Name one DUer." As if the mods have never had to delete posts, ban users, or that there hasn't been a discussion between the LGBT community here at DU and Skinner about the hard and soft bigotry among the membership of the site; and the mistakes made by the Admins and mods (and users). It's disgusting to use a hyperbole ("...most GLBT friendly sites on Earth.") to wash away the LGBT community's history here.

To answer your own question, all you have to do is look no further than your own post.


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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Bullshit.
You have nothing. I posted a challenge and no one will take it up.

I welcome you to give it a shot though. Go ahead and try to explain just why or how anything I've ever posted is 'bigoted'.

You, like the OP who started this thread, are just looking to take your shit out on someone. I'm not an easy target, and you won't get satisfaction because you're barking up the wrong tree.

So either put up or fuck off.
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The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. I did.
So you're wrong about that. Twice. You're also wrong about me looking to "take shit" out on someone. If that were true, I would have responded long before, and to every one of your posts. Anyone reading this thread can see the OP said something that you did not like and you have decided to not respond to it appropriately. I would suggest to you to step back from this thread and take a breather; but something tells me you aren't going to.

As to your "bigoted statement" challenge (which has been met, several times): those who are bigoted, prejudiced, racist, and cetera, don't often realize they are such because they see their ideas, actions, treatment of other people as right and proper. They don't know how insulting they are and when it's explained to them they have one of two reactions: denial and they throw a tantrum; or they apologize and change their behavior for the better.

A few of your newer post point to which choice you've made.


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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Where? I know this might be tricky for you, but please understand...
If you actually said something then you should be able to reproduce it.

If you have actually explained "how or why" I am a 'bigot', then please, reproduce the text.

You can use the 'cut and paste' facility of your browser in some cases.

I'll wait.
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The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. I'm aware of how science works.
I'm also aware of the copy & paste function. I actually did say something, proof of which is my actual post as well as your replies (and my replies). I have actually explained something--the proof is my post. You not reading or refusing to read it doesn't change that fact.

Instead of the wild attacks, perhaps you should either take a break from this thread or actually address what was said, rather than continuing to make statements which do not fit the intended target.

Reiteration does nothing at this point.



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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. So, it just 'is because you say so'. Got it.
Seriously, You can't point to a damn thing I've said that's 'bigoted', let alone explain how or why it is, but you want to believe it anyway.

I can't help you.

Believe whatever bullshit you want to. The only contention I had about this thread is it claims that DU is bigoted... which is against the rules, but to hell with the rules.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
101. I believe you are uninformed about some things regarding this issue. Read this
Edited on Mon Apr-25-11 12:05 AM by Zorra
post by Sapphocrat in the GLBT forum. The OP was poste by Skinner, and is entitled "Mending Fences".

From 2003:

I am not anti-gay rights but. I dont think this is a good time for the gay-marriage issue.

Please dont get me wrong. Im not gay, but Im not homophobic either. Im just thinking that this decision is bad, bad timing politically. ...

It is too soon for gay marriage

Why not advance the idea of civil unions first. Let people get use to that idea and then push for marriage.

This isnt the time. Our number one priority has to be getting bush the hell out of office. This wont help that cause.

Ive never met anyone, liberal or not who didnt express utter disgust at the idea of gay marriage. This includes people I know who are otherwise open-minded and liberal on most every other issue.

Some form of gay rights such as a civil union of some sort would be more acceptable. But for 99% of the people out there the very idea of gay marriage is just repulsive with capitial R. The gay marrige issue would severely cripple any democratic candidates to beat Bush if they support it. Lets not go down that road."

... These are much more pressing issues then whether a gay person should be allowed to marry. Im not homophobic, but I feel that gays ought to think about the well-being of others much less fortunate than themselves.

How should we handle wedge issues? Like gay marriage, flag burning & abortion I say we dismiss them completely. Firmly say that its manufactured to divide us & leave it at that. When pressed, just say you wont take the bait. If someone feels so strongly about it, they can join a special interest group.

From 2004:

The gay marriage issue hijacked our party. I think the gay and lesbian community decided to make this a visible issue on state ballots because they thought they could ride on the coattails of the Mass. court decision and Kerry. They ended up hurting him. They could have waited until an off Presidential election year to go ballistic. This issue ended up being identified directly with Kerry on the Ohio ballot and ten other states. Many Democratic Christians who would have normally voted for Kerry went with their family and moral values. Im not homophobic

What would be hilarious if it weren't so utterly ridiculous: This poster seems to believe gay people were responsible for putting anti-gay marriage BANS on twelve state ballots in 2004! These were marriage BANS, not marriage-equality bills!

You DO need to get over it! You are a citizen of the United States before you are gay. You owe a responsibility to your country FIRST!! Yeah, youre gay, many people are, we cannot allow the you know whos to use gays as the new blacks to divide our country with the gay marriage issue.

I think the Democratic Party should not even come close to this issue. The farther away the better. If this becomes a major issue with leading Democrats crusading for gay marriage, George McGovern will end up looking like a successful candidate.

my gay friends, delay marriage Just delay till December. Why hand Republicans 5 percent more of the vote, when you can stay quietly on the sidelines and deny them this issue?

I Am Outraged By Gay People Well, not really. But I am kinda annoyed by their (meaning those forcing the issue, not all gays) impeccably bad sense of timing. By pushing this into an unpopular culture war during an election year, these gay activists are screwing up their own agenda. If they demonstrated a few months of patience, it would serve them well.

Another one who thinks we were responsible for the timing of the Massachusetts SJC decision, and/or putting anti-gay marriage bans on the ballots.

The gay marriage issue is a disaster waiting to happen. We will lose on this issue if we allow it to become an entrenched part of the debate. So heres the question: will the gay community, and those who heavily support gay rights, keep quiet during the primaries and the election? Will they trust the Democratic party to do the right thing once they are in office? ...

... The country is not ready for this yet. Maybe in a decade, not now.

Keep believing that the gay marriage issue didnt cost us Ohio, when it clearly did. Since Ohio cost us the race well what else can I say. The turnout in southern Ohio was beyond the wildest dreams of Karl Rove and they all turned out for the gay marriage ban.

Whose idea do you think putting marriage bans on state ballots was? Hint: His initials are K.R.

Homos will just need to have a little patience and trust us in the long run.

"Homos"?

From 2005:

You are impatient.

Its political suicide to come out in favor of gay marriage.

Everyone just needs to shut up about their own issue and stand behind the party.

Get a grip on reality! This is not a winning issue right now.

From 2006:

This issue is going to lose us elections right now and we should lay off until a good chunk of the old farts who oppose it die off. In about 10 or 15 years the Nation will be ready for this fight but right now its too early.

Why not take what you can get with bills like Howard Deans for the meantime and hopefully in two years you will get someone like Dean or Gore as President, who will change the law and give you all the same rights Married people have without changing the name and pissing off all the fundies?

Goddamn itgays I love ya, but couldnt you have waited. WTF. Why is it that the gay marriage issues always crops up right before the election. I fully support homosexual rights, but this ruling by the NJ Supreme Court just energized the Christofascist vote and will likely result in an erosion of Dem wins in Nov. Next time, can we just table the homosexual marriage thing until mid-election cycle?

(T)his victory is likely to cost us control of Congress or the Senate. What good is this victory when it just sets us all back and puts more anti-gay politicans in office? Make NO MISTAKE there will be push-back on thisjust like in 2004.

Politically speaking this victory just handed Rove a MAJOR campaign issue.

(T)he Christian fundamentalists are sure to turn out in droves because of this decision now. They were the ones who might have helped us win the election, by staying home. So I wouldnt be surprised in the next week or so that it becomes widely accepted we are going to lose. Worst fucking time for this, you have to wonder why this happened right before the election and not after the election.

You will see. I would say this decision has put a Democratic win in the House in Jeapordy.

In reality, as I wrote in my blog post: "Contrary to all the Criswell-like predictions, Democrats swept the 2006 mid-terms, picking up 31 seats in the House (putting Republicans in the minority for the first time in twelve years), the largest gain for the Dems since 1974.

"Meanwhile, Democrats replaced Republicans in five open gubernatorial races, and booted the Repub incumbent, Robert Ehrlich, out of Marylands governors mansion.

"Not a single Democratic incumbent in Congress, or in any gubernatorial race, lost his or her seat.

"Were still waiting for an apology from all those Democrats who opened with the usual disclaimer, Im not homophobic / Some of my best friends are gay / I think you deserve equal rights, but, and then went on to blame us uppity gays for what was sure to be a huge loss for the Dems.

"Were not holding our collective breath."

The Civil Rights Act cost the Democrats the South for a generation.

Which reminds me: Isn't it funny how LGBTs are attacked for pointing out the unmistakable similarities between the Civil Rights struggle of the 1950s and 1960s (as if we were equating them, which I've never seen anyone do) -- yet when it is convenient for pinning blame on LGBTs, all of a sudden, such comparisons are perfectly acceptable?

Right now, the priorities are different in this country, and if gay marriage can detract from other, more pressing issues, yeah, the Democrats are going to eat it yet again in November, because the diversion will have worked. And gay marriage can kiss its own ass goodby for another decade or two.

All the special interest issues on the ballots like gay marriage helped keep bu$h close enough that swapping a few thousand votes made it harder to prove it was stolen.

How many of those people wouldnt have even come out to vote if those initiatives werent on the ballot? Besides, they see the Democrats as the party of the queers anyway, so it doesnt matter whether or not Kerry was against it. Hes guilty by association.

From 2007 to early 2008:

"Handing a huge wedge issue to the GOP lets see how the gay community feels knowing they helped put McCain in the White House this November. they will be lucky to have civil unions, much less gay marriage, when that happens."

"This is 2004 all over again. Talk about history repeating itself. WOW. Kerry had his Massachusetts. Obama will have his California. I knew this was going to happen. Well, it was a nice dream anyway."

"Im All For Gay Rights, Womens Rights And Getting Our Privacy rights back but I think it would be better to wait till after the election to push these issues."

"If we lose the election, none of the rights will come to pass and we will lose even more. Grow up and have some patience. What the hell is another 6 months when youve waited this long already?"

"After we win, we can press Obama and the Congress to do what is right and long over due."

Personally I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
Barack Obama
"I think he speaks for most of us. I have nothing against gay rights, but marriage is something that should be reserved for man and woman. ..."

"...your priority should be to get a Democrat in the WH first. THEN make gay marriage an issue. Self-righteous indignation accomplishes nothing for gay rights except handing the GOP a massive divisive wedge issue that will almost guarantee another democratic defeat in November."

"And the Democratic Party just possbily lost California in November"

Last I time checked, in 2008, Obama was elected president and the Dems retained control of both the House and the Senate.

But here's my favorite of all, from 2008:

The gay community is fucking it up for everybody else.

Mind you, these comments I quoted were limited solely to the issue of marriage equality, and have nothing to do with any of the other "classic" blow-ups such as the Snickers ad, the neverending "discussion" about why we gays have to act so gay at Pride parades, etc., etc.

I'm sure some reading this will want to jump all over me for digging up posts now as much as eight years old. After all, you will want to say, "But things have changed! Skinner has really been working hard to bring DU together! It's not fair to dig up such old posts!"

Before you do, however, consider these points (and here comes The Big Rant, with "YOU" referring to all those people who think we should sit down, shut up, and let the "grown-ups" decide what's best for us):

1) The posts I quoted above represent the smallest fraction of the garbage we have had to put up with for the better (or rather worse) part of a decade.

2) These posts represent a pattern that has never ended.

3) That I was able to dig up such posts which were then more than five years old tells you that such blatantly anti-gay, offensive, and downright cruel posts were never deleted. Oh, I can guarantee you some (I'm guessing most) were alerted on, but there they remained (and may even exist today -- I don't know).

4) These posts represent the attitude: "It's not about YOU GAYS! It's all about US, and how YOUR issues affect US!"

On that last point, here's the impasse: On DU, LGBT issues are "pet issues," afterthoughts -- and until you (the DU membership at large) see "us" as part of "you," the impasse will always be.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
114. Yes. There is also alot of confusion over gender equality too. We try to educate the best we can.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. There were a couple trolls in an OP...
They've been sacked.

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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yeah I saw one of them in a thread
evolve something or another.

I'm kind of sick of people bashing DU over shit like this, the mods TS these trolls as fast as they can for fuck's sake.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Most unintentionally funny post of the year so far...
'I'm kind of sick of people bashing DU over shit like this, the mods TS these trolls as fast as they can for fuck's sake.'

I'm curious. Why do you feel that way about this issue, but not that way at all when it comes to bashing DU over antisemitism?
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I'm not referring to trolls. I've been around long enough not to given them any attention.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 07:10 PM by JackBeck
I can't imagine someone being TS'd for using the term 'transgendered' instead of 'transgender.'

Please don't try and minimize what I've witnessed. My OP is meant to educate people on proper terminology and how its misuse is oppressive to trans members of the DU community.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. +1 n/t
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. You could have said this in your OP.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Read it again -- the OP was intended to be instructional, & it was tactfully expressed.
It was an OP meant for listening, a chance to learn something.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Agreed. I think that poster needs to read the OP again...
There was nothing at all about the OP that could have created hostility towards it from people, and I thought it was exactly what you said it was, an opportunity for the well-meaning amongst us to learn something we may not have already known. I don't understand why it would be taken in a completely different way than that...
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. To say nothing of people referring to Ann Coulter as a man..
As a moderator, I've removed posts like that a LOT. And not from trolls, but from longtime DUer's who don't realize that saying those kinds of things is quite hurtful.

That alone is a relatively common occurrence. So a little educational certainly isn't a bad thing. I certainly didn't know about some of the stuff you mentioned.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. It was an excellent OP. You'll get no argument there.
Calling people who simply don't know that the past tense of 'transgender' means something particular 'bigoted' or 'homophobic' is entirely intolerant of you.

Not everyone invests themselves in understanding protocols they are not familiar with. Why? Because they didn't know there was a protocol to begin with.

Please, THINK about this. I'll give you that opportunity where you have already placed judgement; give people a CHANCE to understand before condemning them. If they reject the fair and empathetic protocol, then you can pass your judgement.

Until then, please learn to distinguish between 'trolls' and 'uneducated posters'.

And thank you for helping to educate us. I've used 'transgendered' before, and simply had no idea that it meant something more than I thought.

Should I have been TS'd?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Wow... You have issues.
What 'bigotry'?

You're just a flamer, trying to get up people's outrage. Please reflect on my actual words and not what you imagined I said. After that, please stop trying to make enemies among your friends. It's very self-destructive.

Peace.

Oh, and please throw out that 'I don't need friends like you' bullshit. I'm your friend whether you like it or not. Get over yourself... and grow up.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. The Doctor isn't bigoted and hasn't said anything bigoted...
Someone saying 'transgendered' makes them a bigot according to you? You have to be fucking joking!
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Bigotry exists on multiple levels.
Would you agree or disagree that someone can be a bigot without knowing they are one?

Years ago I used the past-tense of transgender and completely realize now that I was a trans bigot for doing so.

As cisgender individuals, our unearned non-trans privilege allows us to perpetrate bigotry even when we think we are not being offensive. As long as we acknowledge we're on a path to greater learning and acceptance, we can then work on minimizing our own internal bigotries.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Yr free to call yrself a bigot if you want, but you lost me totally when you called the Doctor one..
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 10:51 PM by Violet_Crumble
Hey, if saying 'transgendered' makes someone a bigot, does it make them doubly so a bigot if they whack a hyphen in there and try to posh it up a bit by saying 'trans-gendered' eg 'That Patricia Wolfingstone-Baldershot who we played croquet with last Tuesday is trans-gendered'?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
117. no you weren't- not if you used it without intending harboring any bigotry
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Thanks for the rational voice,
but 'rational' does not get through the blind outrage of those just looking to tussle with someone.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. No worries at all. It's a shame what could have been a good thread turned to shit...
:)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
99. Why is that important to you? nt
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. So
You've told us what you don't want to be called, but not specifically what you do want to be called. Other than you calling yourself a trans person.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. How about the individual's screen name - that's what most
people do. They call people by their names. Seriously. I'm not being snarky - it's much easier to just call someone by their name, don't you think?

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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
52. Uh
I'm talking about when someone would be referring to trans persons in general, not one of them in particular.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
86. Right.
That's why you repeatedly addressed the OP as "you" in your comment.

Precision matters - if you make a remark that refers to an individual, don't expect others to see it as anything else. Learn to say what you mean and you might get a response that addresses your actual concern.

My comment stands.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. So we should refer to a trans male as female and vice versa?
Seems easier not to say anything at all.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Use the gender the individual identifies as n/t
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Someone who was assigned the sex of 'male' at birth by a doctor
but who now identifies as a female is a transgender female, or may simply identify as female.

If a person was assigned the sex of female at birth, but now identifies as male, they are a transgender man, or may identify as male.

Ultimately, we should just mirror back to someone how they identify to us.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I'm sorry....doctors "assign" gender?
I could have sworn that the little bits between the legs determined ones gender????? I cannot keep up anymore....
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Please re-read my post.
I said doctors assign 'sex' at birth. And for transgender people, the sex assigned at birth doesn't match their gender identity or gender expression.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. So one having been born with a penis does not automatically
a male make?
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. No.
It appears you have a lot to learn about gender identity and gender expression. Plus, someone who is presenting with genitals attributed to one particular sex may also be intersex.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Oddly enough, that's exactly right.
As I've said before; human sexuality is far more complicated than the parts involved. It comes from many more places than a penis or a vagina.

Hang around, and you'll pick up more. If you have any questions about this subject, I'm actually fairly well qualified to answer some of them.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. The fact that you don't distinguish between sexuality and gender
makes me question your "fairly well qualified to answer some of them" caveat.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Why are you looking for a fight? What is wrong with you?
I DO distinguish between them.

:wtf:

You obviously started this thread looking for a target. It doesn't matter that I learned from the OP, agree with the OP, or agree with you... you just want a fight.

GROW. THE. FUCK. UP.

That's all, I'm out.

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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #46
107. why are you being an ass to somebody who is on your side?
:wtf:

somebody piss in your coffee?
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. You are taking my comment out of context.
If you haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, you should take some time to find the comment where I was called intolerant by this poster. They also claimed I had called people homophobic, when I did no such thing. I was starting to feel that a couple of people were trying to derail this conversation.

You cannot claim to be 'an expert' if you continue to conflate gender identity and/or expression with sexual orientation when discussing transgender issues. They are their own distinct terms, yet intersectionality exists when talking about how we all possess our own personal multiple identities.

Many times, there are assumptions that transgender people are automatically gay, when in reality most trans people identify as heterosexual. But this constant mashing of terminology is what continues to muddy any dialog while trying to help a group of people who are not fully enfranchised.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
111. Turner Syndrom, AIS
There are a variety of medical reasons for which the results of the Infants Sex is misunderstood/misdiagnosed. Or even assigned by a medical team surgically at birth. I believe the current term for these conditions is Intersex.

Separate but related is the the persons Gender. Which encompasses how a person interacts with others in our society. Such as will one wear Pants or a Gown to their Wedding?

And third there is the question of attraction. Typically society has tried to define all three within seconds of birth. And for a majority of people that seems to work. But for a significant percentage of individuals one or more of these are incorrectly assumed at birth.
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. the short answer is "no."
The little bits between the legs do NOT determine gender. Not at all. They may determine biological sex, but gender is something entirely different.
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Keith Bee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #60
102. The ultimate sex organ is the brain
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
78. That's my policy
Oh, damn.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
92. If someone self-identifies as a female, refer to them as a female.
If someone self-identifies as a male, refer to them as male.

Very simple.
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. I do appreciate the information and hope that I will remember this.
I believe that most of us would never intentionally demean the LGBT community. Do not consider ignorance of the terms as bigotry.

Yes, there are always some who will oppose anything that is posted---and I mean anything. I, for one, would not be hateful towards people because they were born in the wrong bodies. But it would be possible for me to say the wrong things, only for the right reasons. I do hope that what you are referring to is not really prevalent.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
83. "Say the wrong things, only for the right reasons"
I'm pretty sure I've done that, too. That was an excellent way to put it. As we learn more, hopefully we do less of that, and instead, say the right things along with being well-intentioned :)
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks. +1. n/t
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. thank you!
It's always good to know the proper way to show loving respect for your fellow humans.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. Gender has two components. Psychological and physical.
A person is fortunate if the two are in alignment. But when they are not, and SRT isn't an option, then there's some unavoidable ambiguity. If "not truly" and "not entirely" are insensitive/offensive, then what is preferred? In that case, "male" and "female" aren't medically accurate.

In the McDonalds case, there's also a fascinating peek into our beliefs about gender violence.
a) How much sympathy for the victim would there be had the victim been dressed as a man? Given the fact that (he, she, pick one) was trying to use the women's restroom, would there be any?
b) The victim has the size and strength of a male. The cognitive dissonance resulting from this inspires us to fit the attack into not useful paradigm.

I think we'd be better at dealing with violence if our approach wasn't so thorougly entwined with gender stereotypes.

I want to be aware and sensitive in my use of language. But I have trouble with the concept of identity divorced from physiological reality. I don't think most DU'ers would simply accept my decision to be african american.

Am I ignorant about this? Undoubtedly. Bigoted? No.
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I've had bigender friends, I always took the clue they gave to me as to pronouns
Usually I used their name and just stopped using pronouns if possible.

Violence against Female to Male is nearly identical in stats to Male to Female, however it's more common for female to male to "pass."

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet....
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Until we start thinking outside of the gender binary, then male and female are our only options.
I also believe that ignorance informs bigotry, especially if one has non-trans privilege because they can enjoy the unearned right never to have their gender questioned. No one wants to be called a bigot, but we all harbor bigotries to a certain extent, so once we acknowledge that, we can work on educating ourselves to become less bigoted and ignorant.

Your attempt to use a race-based analogy in your post was misguided. Anyone born in Africa that moves to America can identify as African-American, regardless of the color of their skin.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. If the gender binary is outdated, then why the OP?
the main takeaway appears to be that someone who identifies as male, but patronizes a gynecologist should (unless you want to be considered an insensitive bigot) only be called "he" - no asterisk.

There's some unavoidable ambiguity here.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Many cultures acknowledge that gender isn't just confined to male or female.
It's not so much that it is outdated, it's just not applicable to gender identity or gender expression. And since I've already talked about gender identity existing on a spectrum, I've acknowledged there's unavoidable ambiguity. But here's a simple rule of thumb: only refer to another individual as they have identified to you, regardless of how you perceive them to be presenting. Your non-trans privilege is what gives you the unearned right to add an asterisk.

I'm not going to do all the heavy lifting here, so I would encourage you to do your own research if you are honestly trying to gain better knowledge about this topic.

But given the example you just posed, I'd suggest watching the documentary Southern Comfort.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0276515 /

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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
44. Thanks for the link to that film
I had never heard of it. It looks great - I will definitely watch it!
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
63. refer to people by the gender they prefer to be referred to as
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:02 PM by La Lioness Priyanka
while one's sex is usually either male or female, one's gender is much more ambiguous. there is no good reason not to use the correct pronouns for trans-folk.


Also why does the physiological reality really concern you? do you normally check people's genitalia to make sure they are congruent with their gender expression? i for one, don't. if someone presents as a man, i use male pronouns. if someone presents ambiguously, i ask what their preferred gender pronoun is.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #63
108. In this case it is relevant.
The the beating occurred because the assailant felt the victim shouldn't use the women's bathroom.

I'm pretty laissez faire about who uses the men's room, but it doesn't appear that women share that view - e.g. I've never heard of a woman going to jail for using the men's room.

my takeaway is that there's a lot of cognitive dissonance which results from watching a woman beat a man senseless. There are several potential defenses against this dissonance. One would be to blame it on the men nearest the attack for not stopping her, because presumably she's not responsible for any acts that nearby men allow her to do. Another would be blaming the victim for putting up an inadequate defense - (which fits into stereotypes that the rules rightly don't tolerate). The other is, "The victim is a woman, period. And anyone who thinks that her male physiology is in any way germane to the discussion is bigoted".

Frankly, I think this OP is backwards. The choice of pronoun by those watching the video is the least important part of the attack.
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varkam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. +1
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kick
Thanks!
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
27. I take heart that 170,360 of us 170,402 do get it.
And because of the uniqueness of DU I hope the rest will probably actually learn something and progress rather than merely try to defend their misguided or misstated opinions.

PS Thanks JackBeck for a thoughtful and tolerant post to try to make things better here.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
39. Thank you for the information
I'm a lesbian, and would never intentionally wish to offend anyone in the transgender community, but even I didn't know there was a difference between using the terms transgendered and transgender. I certainly didn't know it was offensive.

Thank you for teaching me something new. Hopefully this will enable our community to become a more friendly place for everyone.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. As a white, non-trans gay male
I work very hard to keep my own privileges in check so that I can continue to be a true social justice advocate. I've made mistakes too, no one is perfect, and have seen anti-trans attitudes even within our own community.

Thank you for understanding why I posted the OP.

:pals:
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
91. *Hugs*
:pals:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
43. I like this thread, I even rec'd it... but it should be locked. Here's why;
It is a thread which presents a negative discussion about DUers.

I'm terribly sorry, but this sort of educational thread could have been done without the condemnation of the subject line.

Mods, please lock this thread and give the OP a chance to start over. Never let it be said I won't say what I mean to anyone's face.

Please lock this, according to the rules.

Thank you.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Oh, and here's another reason why;
The OP is looking for fights.

Unfortunately, I made another statement that condemned no one and explained that enlightenment is crucial to understanding, and the OP called me a 'bigot'.

:wtf:

Seriously, threads like these are wrong. If it were 'educational', then this;

"Please, THINK about this. I'll give you that opportunity where you have already placed judgement; give people a CHANCE to understand before condemning them. If they reject the fair and empathetic protocol, then you can pass your judgement.

Until then, please learn to distinguish between 'trolls' and 'uneducated posters'.

And thank you for helping to educate us. I've used 'transgendered' before, and simply had no idea that it meant something more than I thought."


Wouldn't deserve being called a 'bigot'.

FFS Lock this horrible thing. Let the OP do this without the bullshit condemnation. If the rules mean anything, civility is not served by letting this thread stand. Hell... delete this post too, even though it makes a clear case.

Start being consistent with the RULES.

Thank you.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. So it doesn't matter if what one says is entirely irrational, as long as it is said to a person's
face? This is point-scoring on the level of typical GOP debate: "I have a right to my opinion." As if the existence, and not the content, of an opinion determined its value.

The OP was respectful and enlightening. Furthermore his responses in this thread have been beyond polite. This is an important thread. Don't really understand the rush to lock it.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. My polite responses have been met with baseless accusations of 'bigotry'.
This thread is against the rules. Period.

It calls out unnamed DUers, or generally casts behavior of DUers in a bad light, just as many previously locked threads have, but it is allowed to persist.

Like I said, I get the point of the OP, I agree with it, it just could have and should have been done without disparaging DU.

Or is that sort of thing ok with you?
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. it is not against du rules, to try to educate a community to use more sensitive language
:eyes:
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. You haven't been polite.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:08 PM by themadstork
You've told people to fuck off at least twice now, and you have been generally hostile. It's easy to get emotional when it comes to stuff like this. The privileged view is hard to discard. Please, maybe take a few breaths and have some herbal tea. This could be a truly useful thread and a flamewar would only distract from what you have admitted was an excellent OP.

Also, what is TS as verb mean ast here in DU? Banned?

Correction - one "fuck off," one "grow up," and one "grow the fuck up". Faulty memory
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Nice try. I was certainly polite UNTIL people were impolite to me.
Sorry, but if you start calling me names and assigning bullshit motivations to me, I will most definitely tell you to fuck off.

Now, Read back through the chain of discussion and you'll see (if you aren't terribly prejudiced and intolerant to begin with) that I was perfectly reasonable until insulted without reason.

If you find an instance where that is not clearly the case, and I was impolite without being provoked in any way, I will absolutely apologize for it.

Good luck with that.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
84. Nice try? . . . at what?
I read back through as you asked. I'll have to ask that you identify the insult, as it seemed to me that the FU, GU, and GTFU all came after people had only challenged your reasoning.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #84
93. Yeah, coz there's nothing wrong at all with him being accused of being a bigot, right?
Because I'm not sure why yr having any trouble identifying where the insult happened. If you genuinelly need help spotting it, I'm happy to assist...
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. The accusation itself makes it true.
Obviously. How can one take offense. Oh, I'm sure you're a bigot now too.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #75
118. I imagine many people predicate their own actions and ethics on those of others...
"I was certainly polite UNTIL people were impolite to me..."

I imagine many people predicate their own actions and ethics on those of others, dismissing their own convictions on the basis of "they did it first..."
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #67
97. TS = Tombstoned = Banned (they use a tombstone avatar) n/t
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. get over yourself. nt
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. 'Myself' has nothing to do with it.
Bashing DU or DUers is against the rules.

There is no real bigotry against the GLBT community on DU, and I'm sick of seeing such bullshit accusations. Every time someone makes such a claim, they have nothing to back it up.

NOTHING.

The rare cases of deleted posts are almost always trolls, as was the case yesterday that the OP is obviously referring to. When you let the trolls set the tone this way... THEY WIN!.

Grow up people, please.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. yeah, du clearly has no anti-gay bias, since clearly the democratic party has no anti-gay bias
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:05 PM by La Lioness Priyanka
and gays are treated as equal citizens and are generally afforded respect.

:eyes:

modern theories of bias, show exactly the behavior you are displaying. people who pretend to have positive opinion on a minority, but in reality don't. especially when they feel a minority is exaggerating their oppression.

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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #68
103. As an example
In one of those threads about the McDonald's incident, I saw some people point out that the woman that was beaten up was transgender, as though that was the explanation (and almost a justification) for why she was beaten up.

*I* personally didn't see anyone make the claim outright, because I didn't follow the thread too closely after I said my piece in it (that it was horrific), but the undertone was clear from pretty much the start of it.

I think we've strayed away from the original intent of this thread - it wasn't to accuse people, it was meant to enlighten. Sometimes you DO have to point out issues in the community. It isn't condemnation of that community, it's an attempt to raise the community's standards.

None of us are perfect, but that doesn't give us an excuse to stop trying to be better.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
59. I agree that most people use very clumsy language around trans-folk
i am glad that you created this thread and that for the most part you assume good intent.

it is very difficult for cisgender people to imagine how difficult and often time torturous life for trans-folk can be. In light of that it is especially important for liberals and people who consider themselves non-bigoted, to be better and stronger allies to this severely marginalized community.

I applaud you for making an effort.


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Someone pointed out the other night how difficult it was for trangendered/
cross-dressers to use public restrooms and it took me aback. How awful it must be to have to worry about where one does nature's business.

It's stupid and dangerous paranoia (as paranoia often is). The last thing I'm thinking about is who'd doing their biz next to me. It reminds me of "Whites Only" bathrooms--how humiliating to have to be subject to possible violence and scorn just to go to the bathroom. I'm sure I've been in bathrooms with TG people--but I couldn't relate any details; it's just didn't bother me in the least so I don't remember it.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. airports are another huge problem with the trans-community too
more or less anything that segregates you by sex, assuming that your gender expression and genitalia match
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #69
89. I remember you from that bit of the thread the other night...
I really liked what you had to say in that thread :)

Much in the same way as I don't give a shit (pardon the pun) who's using the cubicle next to me when I use a loo out in public, and am appalled that transgendered folk risk getting humiliated or beaten up when they use a toilet, I also think getting all condescending and self-righteous and accusing people of being bigots if they stick 'ed' on the end of transgender is as silly as me demanding that from this point on I am to be called a Womyn, and anyone who calls me a Woman is clearly a privileged bigot...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
61. Very proud to say a recent DU guest was 86ed yesterday for the silly, paranoid bathroom
thing and the obvious hatred for a particular gender.

Great post, JB. I'm learning too and may accidentally say something ignorant; I want to assure everyone that I'm thoroughly supportive.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Yeah, that 'Evolve_Blah_Blah' person... but what about the other one?
They had one freakin' post, I can't remember the name, but were they spiked too?

DU is a far better place than the trolls could ever make it appear. I really hope people don't buy into the idea that DU is 'full of homophobes'.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. You continue to show your ignorance by claiming I'm talking about homophobia.
Trans bigotry and homophobia are different issues. Like I tried to educate you above, most transgender people identify as heterosexuals, yet are subjected to misplaced homophobia.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
82. Ummm... I was talking to someone else. Again; WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A FIGHT?
That's obviously why you started this thread. A thread which accused DUers of bigotry, which is against the rules.

Your OP made some good points, but for some reason you're looking for someone to attack. Wanna explain yourself?
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #82
98. I wasn't looking for a fight, only to educate people on proper terminology.
I also didn't accuse DUers of bigotry, but was highlighting that bigoted comments had been made over the past few days. There's a difference and if you don't think that bigortry should be exposed every single time it rears it head than maybe you should reassess your commitment to ending trans bigotry and violence.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. It helps to be a bit humble when educating...
Not saying that you did this after the OP, but there's a risk of coming across as self-righteous and lecturing, and from there it's not a far jump to people who should be the ones getting yr message and running with it to turn off and turn away. It doesn't help at all to see you respond positively to someone who pops up calling some people in this thread morons. DU should be a soft audience for the education you want to give, but if there's barbed wire put up around the message so that people get scared they're going to use the wrong tense and end up getting called a bigot, then that's going to be an education that most well-meaning people are going to walk away from....

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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
65. Thank you! Rec'd.
I didn't know about the "transgendered/transgender" difference either. Thanks for saving me future foot-in-mouth!
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. There are transgendered women and men, YouTube is doing a fine service educating them
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
76. Jack, I've long considered you my friend.
I think your OP is dead spot on. It's a shame that we've seen some of THE responses here. I don't doubt that you didn't expect stupidity. I hope that morons don't cause you to shy away from making these posts when you do.

Cheers.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. The feeling is mutual, brother.
Truth be told, right after I posted the OP I remarked to the hubby, 'let the hate parade begin.' I'm happy to see that the vast majority of the posts embrace my original intent and show a desire to be more sensitive when it comes to trans issues.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
79. It's my hope to get the terminology correct...
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:18 PM by Dappleganger
but it may not always happen (because I am old and forget the right words at times). All I know is that every person deserves respect and the benefit of the doubt (not jumping to conclusions), and the opportunity to live their lives in peace and safety.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. from my experience of trans-folk, most are willing to help us use the correct terminology
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 11:20 PM by La Lioness Priyanka
& explain their journeys, assuming we have the same intention you do.

which is probably the truth for most minorities.

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. That's what I think, too.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. so long as we try to get it right. i have a friend who transitioned years ago
and his family still call him by the wrong name and pronoun. thats incredibly mean & rude of them. when another friend of mine, started transitioning, in the beginning i had trouble getting the pronoun right, because i had gotten so used to saying she. however, he gently corrected me a few times and now it doesn't happen anymore
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #88
96. I can't imagine having to put up with the constant mistaken pronouns...
not to mention the changed name. As if they aren't going through enough hell as it is, you know?

As a southerner I tend to refer to everyone as "Sweetie", so that does seem to help. :)
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The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
81. This is a great post
You should save this and trot it out for the commemorative months. Too bad we can't sticky.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
104. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
105. Upon review, we have decided to unlock this thread. (nt)
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #105
106. FWIW, I think that's a good call. n/t
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #105
110. :0) The discussion has been healthy
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
112. going by the trans boards they use transgender/transgendered interchangeably
with no logical reason, and their feelings and beliefs are as varied and complicated as the individuals they are just like any other community. I was following one interesting thread where one woman was talking about how she went directly to SRS (sex reassignment surgery) before doing HRT (hormone replacement therapy) or even dressing or "coming out" as a woman and all the hoops she had to jump through and how difficult it was to find a doctor to be willing to do it, and she referred to herself as transgendered before having the surgery. All through the threads transgender and transgendered are used interchangeably by transpeople for no discernible reason. Very interesting reading. I may join one of these boards just to offer encouragement and empathy. Knowing no transpeople as far as I am aware I'm rather ignorant of much of what they go through emotionally, socially and physically and reading their thoughts, feelings and personal experiences has been very enlightening and I applaud their strength of character particularly in the face of so much bigotry and even outright hostility.

I know you are well meaning in attempting to "correct" what words people use in reference to transpeople and what words offend them, but I see that you are not trans yourself and are going by what a few transpeople you know personally seem to feel rather than the what the whole of the trans community does which is rather disingenuous of you. I think something as important as this should be assessed generally by the whole of the trans community and not what one non-trans person thinks because of what their few trans friends have told them. Let's face it, not everyone in the trans community feels the same about what is or is not offensive anymore than the whole of the gay/lesbian community does or the straight community does, and it is presumptuous to declare that all transpeople find XYZ offensive when clearly all of them don't and vice versa. It's actually rather bigoted to make the assumption that all or even most transpeople find XYZ offensive or not offensive since transpeople are as individualistic as anyone else and may or may not find XYZ offensive according to their own individual feelings and beliefs which may or may not change over time - just like anyone else.

Going by your original thread on this topic, clearly you need to learn what defines a bigot and what does not. You seem to believe that someone unintentionally using a term that may be found to be bigoted out of ignorance makes them a bigot - so not true. What defines a bigot is their beliefs and feelings, not what words they inadvertently use because they didn't know better. If one embraces the trans community and is empathetic toward transpeople they are in no way a bigot regardless of what words they may inadvertently use.

Just with any group of people one doesn't know much or even anything about the general rule of thumb is to refer to them as they prefer individually and when in doubt, ask politely. Embracing and showing a willingness to learn as well as seeing them as individuals is all that really matters and what is most appreciated.


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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. ^--- this. n/t
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. A few things:
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 01:07 PM by JackBeck
First off, I would never claim to speak for the entire trans community, which is why in the very first sentence of the second paragraph I stated that 'transgendered' isn't commonly used, meaning that I acknowledge that there are times when it is a term that is used within the community. I was very careful when I wrote that paragraph, and wanted to avoid absolutes one way or the other, which is why I wrote it the way I did. I would appreciate in the future you asking me to clarify any statements before characterizing me in a negative tone. Throughout the thread I also repeatedly shared that as a rule of thumb, always reflect back to a person how they have identified to you, so I fail to see where I've been disingenuous. I think it's amazing that you are engaged in learning more about the trans community. More people should be as intellectually curious as you clearly have shown yourself to be.

I have worked with many trans leaders lobbying in New Jersey and in Washington for trans-inclusive legislation: Mara Keisling, Jaan Williams, Babs Siperstein, Trystan Angel Reese, to name a few. These are not just casual acquaintances, or as you dismissively tried to frame them as 'a few trans friends, but activists that the greater trans community look to for guidance and trust to fight for their equality. Are there people in the trans community who disagree with their tactics? You bet. There are numerous examples of how progressives never seem to entirely coalesce around our leaders across the spectrum of the disenfranchised. I even bet you that if you started a thread with some of those names on the trans boards you frequent, you might just get a variety of reactions. I am not taking this as an opportunity to name-drop or brag (others have accused me of doing so in the past, which is why I want to be explicit about my intentions), but to show you that I have been fully-vetted by leadership from the trans community to speak sensitively as an ally. In fact, I just finished creating a 2-day training curriculum at my organization on Sexuality, Gender and HIV that I sent to my contacts at trans and trans-inclusive organizations to look at before implementing. The module on 'proper use of terminology' was given approval from every organization. And they all agree that it is improper to use transgendered, unless, of course, someone identifies that way. The AP Stylebook, which GLAAD helped update on LGBT terminology, also agrees that using the term transgendered is problematic.

Secondly, words are powerful and if used improperly can have major negative health ramifications, especially when educating non-medical service providers on how to suspend their preconceived bigotries in order to properly interact with transgender clients. A journey that I hope everyone would take would be to become more culturally competent when interacting with communities you may not entirely be familiar with, and that journey begins by acknowledging your own power and privilege, and then learning to step-back, listen and learn. I find it odd that you chose to use my self-admitted non-trans privilege against me. Im still sitting here trying to figure that one out. But anyway, Id like to share with you Terry Cross model that I have embraced in my social justice work. Maybe even take a minute to try and figure out where you would place yourself on this continuum:

Cultural Destructiveness: The blatant attempts to destroy the culture of a given group. Assumes that one group is superior to another. Acknowledges only one way of being and purposefully denies or outlaws any other cultural approaches.

Cultural Incapacity: Lacking the capacity to be responsive to different groups, but this is not intentional. Ignorance and unfounded fear is often the underpinning of the problem. Incapacity might consist of the failure to recognize when mistreatment is due to cultural differences thereby perpetuating its occurrence.

Cultural Blindness: Ignorant of cultural differences and often perceive themselves as unbiased or not bigoted. This is due to the fact that they believe that culture makes no difference in relation to the way the group acts or reacts. Fosters the assumption that people are all basically alike, so what works with members of one culture should work with members of all other cultures.

Cultural Pre-Competence: The movement towards cultural sensitivity. Individuals actively pursue knowledge about differences and attempt to integrate this information into delivery of services. There is a recognition that cultural differences exist but those differences are acknowledged as differences and nothing more. Cultural pre-competence encourages learning and understanding of new ideas and solutions to improve performance or services.

Cultural Competence: Individual has the capacity to function in an effective manner within the context of the targeted group. Acceptance and respect of differences, continual self-assessment, attention to dynamics of differences, and continual expansion of knowledge about the target group are important factors. Involves actively seeking advice and consultation and a commitment to incorporating new knowledge and experiences into a wider range of practice.

Cultural Proficiency: The positive end of the continuum. It is where health and human service providers should strive to be. It involves pro-actively regarding cultural differences and promotes improved cultural relations among diverse groups. Individuals hold culture in very high esteem and they are regarded as specialist in developing culturally sensitive practices.

I guess the final thing I would like to address at this point would be my use of 'trans bigotry.' Would 'trans prejudice' have been more proper, or does the word bigotry just make people too uncomfortable? Again, I always choose my words carefully, which is why I never used 'homophobia' or 'transphobia' anywhere in my thread title or OP. Ann Coulter is repeatedly called "Mann Coulter", as even observed by a moderator upthread. Thomas Beatty was disparaged by many on here during his pregnancy. And now, Chrissy Lee Polis has her gender questioned when referred to as not being a real woman, among other things that have been said about her. Part of bigotry is being obstinately or intolerantly devoted to your own opinions. I've given everyone here ample evidence that the vast majority of trans leadership and LGBT organizations suggest that using the term 'transgendered' is improper. Nope, I will continue to stand by using bigotry to explain what I continue to observe here, while people insist on using words and/or phrases that are disparaging to the majority of the trans community.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
115. K and R
Good post. :thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
119. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
120. I said 'transgendered' in one of the McDonald's posts...
...before this topic was made. I didn't realize it was an improper term, and I apologize for it. I know better now, but did not at the time.

But to think that makes me bigoted infuriates me. Not because I question someone's right to think what they will, not because it's a 'typical reaction'. It infuriates me because my aunt is trans -- although admittedly I have only met her once, for a very short period of time, at another aunt's funeral. My entire family was there naturally, and as most of you know, virtually my entire family is arch-conservative. My father is 'merely' conservative, and one cousin and his wife are liberal but silent.

Yet of all the people gathered together at this funeral, my father and I were the ONLY people who would take the time to talk to her, who didn't whisper things about her behind her back, or wait until she left to gossip about her. We both went out of our way to defend her, and her life decisions, to the rest of our family. This is expected of me, but not so much from him. But there it was, and we had a long talk about it afterwards. One of the best talks my father and I have ever had.

And now someone wants to call me bigoted because I used a tense I couldn't possibly have known about at the time? No, no that will not do at all. I ask you, who would think that, to reconsider. There IS such a thing as an innocent misunderstanding, or innocent ignorance.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
121. I like the other two points but "transgendered" isn't necessarily past tense.
Transgendered can be used as a state of being just like:

I am elated
I am angered
I am pissed
I am worried

etc.

Transgendered, transgender - not a huge deal.

I'd be way more worried if I saw threads full of "tranny" and "she-male" and "he-she" and "freak" and "it".
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #121
127. When in doubt, always check with what the LGBT organizations have to say.
GLAAD:

Transgender Terminology to Avoid

PROBLEMATIC TERMINOLOGY

PROBLEMATIC: "transgendered"

PREFERRED: "transgender"

The word transgender never needs the extraneous "ed" at the end of the word. In fact, such a construction is grammatically incorrect. Only verbs can be transformed into participles by adding "-ed" to the end of the word, and transgender is an adjective, not a verb.

http://www.glaad.org/page.aspx?pid=376
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. I'm not in doubt but I am not going to argue this with you. It's a niggling, alienating, PC point.
I do thank you for being an ally.
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
122. What language is the most respectful? I'd LOVE a post on what the best language would be-->
I'll be honest, I'm never sure what is cool and what is not!! In college in Eugene, OR it was a pretty small town and the term we used was "drag queens"...but I learned that from the drag queens themselves. But these were guys doing shows and not living life as women.

So what is best practice? If it comes up in conversation, what is the super proper Emily Post type language?
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
123. I get it., I am more than sympathetic. But these "rules" are a bit silly
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 06:23 PM by Chris_Texas
1. Terminology: Becoming "offended" -- your words -- because someone outside your subculture does not know your insider lingo is ridiculous. You might choose to be offended (your choice) by someone who is attempting to be offensive, but being bothered by an outsiders ignorance is silly. Nor is it reasonable to excpect someone else to CARE enough to learn your jargon -- particularly when the goal should be that people do not notice or care at all.

2. A transgendered person is, in fact, whatever gender their DNA indicates. They might feel otherwise psychologically, and they clearly wish it were otherwise, but there it is. You play the cards you are dealt. It is unreasonable to expect other people to pretend that this reality does not exist. For example: I happen to have a receading hairline. I am also only 5'8" so I am kinda short. I do not expect others to PREDEND that I am a tall man with 80's rockstar hair.

3. Bathroom perversions and other accusations... This is a reasonable complaint. However (you knew this was coming) every subculture runs into this issue. It doesn't matter which or how pleasant and friendly they appear; even professional CLOWNS deal with it for heaven's sake. Truckers deal with it. Makeup artists deal with it. Blacks and Hispanics and Indians and Caucasians and Women and Men and I could go on all day. EVERYONE does. So what else can you expect? Given enough time the MAJORITY put aside their irrational concerns.

Until then, try not to spend your irreplaceable seconds being offended by other people. Just do your thing, be HAPPY that you know who you are inside, and enjoy your life.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. something as out-there as trans gender ?
You win the fail.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Yeah, I just caught that myself.. DOH!!! :)
Edited on Tue Apr-26-11 06:36 PM by Chris_Texas
And decided to remove it. Lord knows I don't want to offend anyone.

One of my role models is George Takei. If you did not know he is gay. Sorry, he is TAKEI. Very Takei. I am quite sure he doesn't spend one second of the day looking for a reason to be offended. The guy is just cool.

Or this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc4HGQHgeFE&feature=rela...
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
126. _^_
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