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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:25 PM
Original message
Why the breakup of the U.S. is inevitable.
While it might not happen right away I am a convinced believer that the United States is on its way to becoming consigned to history. Our government has been bought and sold to the military/industrial complex, both parties have been compromised the Republicans in particular. Our education system is failing, our infrastructure continues to crumble, and now you have a growing permanent poor class that is replacing the middle class. We also have a bloated military who continues adventurisms from Korea to Afghanistan to now Libya. How can a nation survive particularly one that has become too big and too arrogant? I am of a belief the Founding Fathers wanted this country to be more like Switzerland. Instead we are the Roman Empire on steroids. We all know what happened to them.

I have been reading about and following the Second Vermont Republic movement closely as of late. I have also become more involved with the movement in Cascadia (Pacific Northwest) as well. In fact, we are considering re-starting a political party to be launched before the 2012 Election. I have also been in contact with the Second Vermont Republic's founder Dr. Thomas Naylor. He has even given me a copy of his book "Secession". A great book even if you don't agree with the thought of states breaking up from the Union. Dr. Naylor has made some very valid points in regards to how this country has gone so far off the path that the Founding Fathers intended the United States to be. Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin would be enraged to find what this nation has become if they were alive today. Dr. Naylor also talks about the First Vermont Republic and what they had achieved in its brief spell as an independent nation. It was a very noble and truly democratic system. What the whole of America should have been and should have stayed as instead of an "Empire".

There are many of you who have had the history lesson and mantra drilled in your heads over and over again that the Civil War settled that issue of secession. That is bunk! The Civil War never really solved anything with the exception of freeing slaves. Fundamentally it was really about the question of state's rights. We can discuss the History of the U.S. during the mid-19th Century all we want but that was then, this is now. The Civil War was 150 years ago. America was different and it was a different time with different situations. A recent poll asked if people believed in states and regions right to secede from the Union. 22 per cent said yes. This was the highest number since before the Civil War. Apart from Vermont and Cascadia, there are other movement calling for secession of their respective states and regions. Hawaii, Alaska, California, Texas, and even in the Midwest. There is a wave of disillusion among people and they are now looking for other political options other than the status quo we have now. Secession is one of those options.

I already know that some of you do not like what I am saying. Some of you think that the U.S. is "too big to fail" (where have I heard that phrase before? Hmmmm) and that it will get back on its feet one day. You don't have to like nor agree with what I am saying. That being said, the U.S. has been in steady decline since I would guess the 1960's with JFK's Assassination and Vietnam. Since when did we ever bounce back from that? The 80's with Reagan? Come on! Reagan was nothing more than an actor who had the ability to sell you a product which is what he did! He never really helped the country bounce back! That was a Dog and Pony Show! Was it with Bill Clinton? No! Wrong again! Bill Clinton was probably the best Centrist Republican President this country had since Eisenhower. One cannot forgive him for selling out the American workers with his Free Trade agreements and Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Clinton was far from a classic liberal Democrat. No the United States continues its decline into collapse and it doesn't matter who is President. There was a time, a brief recent time, when I wanted to believe that this country could be saved. I don't have those illusions anymore. Even if the states and regions breakaway, I see nothing will be that different. Only for the best. Each new country could have its own policies from social to trade. Each new country could decide on being in an alliance or just stay neutral (like in the case of Cascadia). Each new nation can trade with each other and people can come and go as they please. Even with a new flag flying, kids would go to school, play baseball in the park, people will go to work, and live their life. Of course that is the goal! These days, some kids don't go to school, they cannot play baseball in the park, and some people cannot go to work! What has been done about this? Nothing in my opinion!

The idea of secession for some brings out the thoughts of violent, bloody conflict to some people. I am not advocating that in any way, shape, or form. I envision a secession that is more on par with the 1993 "Velvet Divorce" between the Czech and Slovak Republic. I would never advocate for a Yugoslavia-style breakup where you had bloodshed and a civil war. Any result of violence would be nothing we would start. In the case of Cascadia, any secession process would include the development and establishment of our own institutions and system followed by the consent of the people via referendums. Just like any endeavors, there are plenty of risks and scenarios to think about.

The truth of the matter is that secession for any state/region is probably a generation away at best. I do not see how we can continue on the path we are taking which is a road to ruin. Anybody who thinks the U.S. is infallible or too big to fail is kidding themselves. The United States might have been a great nation long ago though it did have its faults, but I don't see it as such anymore. There is going to come a time when people are going to have to choose. If secession does happen my hope is for a peaceful transition. I would also not mind the idea of a Commonwealth of American States, a loose association of our respective lands, and perhaps trade agreements that will be fair and benefit all our peoples. The only change apart from the flags and allegiances would be a better more prosperous and peaceful future for all.



John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:28 PM
Original message
DU's software repeats for emphasis
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 01:28 PM by villager
But was glad to have my say the first time. ;-)
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. predictably, sadly unrecc'd without discussion, of course, but it would seem environmental realities
...if nothing else, would make it inevitable.

The only way people will be able to function after the larger, artificial military-industrial systems collapse will be in smaller autonomous regions.

And some of those will be vastly preferable to the corporate vassal state in which we now live.

Good post. Thanks.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. There's always a popular argument that smaller countries cannot make it on their own.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 02:13 PM by Cascadian
In my opinion, that is a load of nonsense! The reason? Look at Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Slovenia, Monaco, Singapore, Norway, or New Zealand. All countries that are either small or with smaller populations and they are prosperous. So there is no justification in their arguments. It's all based on a certain arrogant notion that "bigger is better!"




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
72. Actually, environmental realities call for abolition of national boundaries, not adding them
Air pollution and water pollution readily cross political lines. If the people upstream need more and more fresh water and draw it out of the river, the people downstream find themselves running short. It's hard to deal with these problems except through a single governmental authority that can control all the relevant actions.

The problem of anthropogenic global warming is the ultimate example -- it's not just the different people living in a particular river's drainage basin, it's everyone on the whole planet. As a result, any progress must be made through protracted negotiations among more than 100 independent sovereign nations. The result is that progrss so far has been very small, nowhere near what will be required to address the problem effectively.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm all for Cascadia but would settle for being Baja British Columbia..if they'd have us.
I also agree with your assessment about a disintegrating United States. We are in fact, "Too big NOT to fail".
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Exactly! How many powerfu countries have lasted forever?
The Mayan Empire, The Romans, The Mongols, The Ottomans, The British, and the Soviet Union. Which empire is still around? We have inherited their traits of arrogance and complacency. This is what causes empires to collapse. You can only be King of the Mountain for so long.





John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The problem for empires is that they become dependent on their colonies.
And, inevitably, have to waste their resources defending them or preventing them from revolting. America has reached the stage of collapse because we are dependent on our colonies (aka "trade partners) for what we consume..and they're starting to charge more.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. We were a colony once...
I don't see what many secessionists would want is any different from what the Founding Fathers wanted. It's almost a natural progression or even a continuation of that drive for Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.





John

(The Cascadian is back!)

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why do you think Sons of The Enlightenment would want another Switzerland?
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Maybe not necessarily a Swiss model but....
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 02:12 PM by Cascadian
more in line to the Swiss Confederation which is libertarian in nature as well as neutral. The truth is Thomas Jefferson never intended for our country to go beyond West of the Rockies. In fact, he envisioned a "Republic of the Pacific" that would be a separate sovereign nation. The Oregon Country was to be that nation only to be thwarted by the so-called "Manifest Destinty". The Cascadian movement is a successor to those ideas. Getting back to Switzerland and neutrality. George Washington had warned us about the idea of joining or forming alliances with foreign countries. Much of our Founding Fathers were more libertarian in belief and outlook. Something we just don't have anymore. If America is to survive, it should not concern itself with being a policeman for the World nor should it be at the bidding of corporations nor theocracy. The Swiss model was probably the more akin to what the Founding Fathers wanted.




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. we have yet to resolve the national question
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 02:16 PM by BOG PERSON
it will probably be resolved with the establishment of at least two new nation-states within the current-day territory of the USA: New Afrika in the SE region and New Aztlan in the territory that Mexico lost in the Mexican-American war
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Dread Pirate Roberts Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Fracture Seems Inevitable
There are already serious regional divides, most noticeably between the former confederate states and the rest of the US. We have gutted the passenger rail system that first stitched the continental US together. Gas prices are making highway travel unaffordable. Between price and the hassle, airline travel is becoming more difficult. The lack of personal interaction is a serious threat to a unified nation. Without actual personal experience the notion of a large single nation becomes abstract and little things become large divisions. I like DU but this is not a substitute.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think of all the places that will be an example of Balkanization.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 02:38 PM by Cascadian
It may well be the South portion of the U.S.. I know about the Aztlan and New Afrika movements but keep in mind you also have a California separatist movement as well as Neo-Confederacy movement. Both will probably be hell-bent, particularly those Neo-Confederates on letting them achieve this. Therefore they are the most volatile. I think the Pacific Northwest or Cascadia will have a much easier time of it but who knows?




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. i don't think the yahoos will inherit the SE
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 04:24 PM by BOG PERSON
for one, they're weenies. for another, that's just not the way demographics in the US are heading. see here.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. save the Northwest Tree Octopus
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 02:50 PM by bahrbearian
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
81. Bwwwa aha hahahahahahaha. ROFLMAO!
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Sadly, you may be right.
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thelordofhell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. I predict states will split up before this happens
California, Arizona, Texas will split, forming two or three new states. Alaska seems to be ripe for this as well. Then you get territories that will eventually become states, and I suspect we'll see an America with 56 states before anything that you speak of will happen.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's an Amazon link to Naylor's book "Secession".
http://www.amazon.com/Secession-Vermont-States-Themselv...


And here are some other links too!

Cascadian Independence Project

http://www.cascadianow.org

Cascadia (Independence Movement)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_%28independence_m...


Second Vermont Republic

http://vermontrepublic.org /



John
(The Cascadian is back!)
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. We don't need more countries, we need one world.

Workers of the world, unite.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The prospect of One World Government scares me!
I think only if it benefits average people then maybe!




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
107. Scares me too.
We need a balance of powers to keep the dark side powers from taking over everything. One of the problems it seems to me is that other countries aren't telling our leaders that they are going to far and need to stop, especially our neighbors Canada and Mexico. Mexico should be screaming about the BP Gulf disaster, but I guess their politicians are as corrupt as ours.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. What color gray tunic would you prefer? We have slippers in eight shades of black...
One World? Please Dog, let me pass on to the next one first...
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Sounds like something out of a Rand novel. n/t
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
94. Soon the "centrist dems" will like that too.
Might as well.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #39
92. Yes, godforbid this gawdy fluorescent air-conditioned nightmare should go under.
Clearly it would be something out of 1984.
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Cascadia will always be at war with Oceania!
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Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. If the U.S. breaks up, who fills the resulting power vacuum on the world stage?
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 04:02 PM by Phoonzang
There's only a few possible contenders.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. As environmental issues becoming more overwhelming, it will be harder & harder for a new "Empire"
...to emerge.

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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. Not. Happening.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Right this minute, no. Give it awhile.
n/t
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. How long? Decade? Century?
Its not happening soon, that is for sure.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. well, "soon" in geologic terms, absolutely. As for human timeframes, it depends on the eco-spasming
...and how much more "upheaval-y" it gets, and how soon...
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It also depends how quick things deteriorate and escalate too. (n/t)
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. So not soon. Ok.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. Not behind rose-colored glasses, no.
n/t
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Hate to say it but....
the United States is not going to be around forever. Anybody who thinks that is a fool!





John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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mountainlion55 Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. Californian wants a divorce from red state ignorance
I have been telling people this in my part of Cali for at least 5yrs.I would love some kind of divorce from the empire. When you consider how big our economy in cali is.How much money we send to red welfare states. I think you are right that this split will happen. In fact maybe if all the blue states kept their money at home it would bring about the end of red state welfare. Let them support their own backassward cultures!
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. California could strike out on its own if it wanted to.
Now if it could get out of the current phunk it finds itself in. I am actually surprised the secessionist movement there has not grown. Maybe in good time.





John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Please, please stop calling it "Cali". It only encourages others.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. I've never heard a Californian call it Cali
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 04:42 PM by lunatica
Never. And I was born in and live in California.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. I've lived here all my 42 years
and cali is quite common here in the Bay Area :shrug:
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
69. No it isn't. Stop making stuff up.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
111. seems to be you that is making stuff up
:P
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. I live and work in the Bay Area.
What you say is just not true.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #73
112. from my 42 yr California native perspective it is true
:shrug:
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
100. So is hella...
quite possibly the worst word ever. That's hella good. NO! It's not!
From a former Southern Californian.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #100
113. yep
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
74. Cali came out of the Southern California hip hop culture.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 08:31 PM by Xithras
Actually, I think it started with the whole "Cali-Girl" thing in the 80's (a reference to the Valley Girl airhead types who lived outside of the Valley), but Snoop and others pulled it into the rap/hip-hop culture. It's pretty common to hear it there nowadays. It spread into the Bay Area via the west coast rap scene.

It's now spreading OUT of the hip-hop/rap scene into more general usage.

I'm not sure what bubble you've been living in to avoid it, but this born and bred native Californian has heard it more times than I can count. And not from transplants.

Now, if you were arguing about Frisco, you'd have a point. Total newbie flag.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
55. Oh man, no kidding! Feeling kinda guilty about it, but certainly feeling it.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 05:29 PM by calimary
I too would like a divorce from red state ignorance. Hey we need our money here in California! Might help our bottom line if we weren't subsidizing so many red states.

on edit - my apologies to Bible Belt DUers. You're not part of the problem - you're actually trying to do something about it.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
76. RE: apology. That's OK. Most of us redstate DUers.........
would like a divorce from red state ignorance too. :)
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
65. Would you also like a divorce from the racist, overwrought,
indulgent folks of Orange County?

Not all of us are bassackwards, and some of us do throw the fact that some of our states are welfare states in the faces of the rightwingers, who suck up the social safety net programs that the wingers just love to cut.

My suggestion would be to cut us off first, and it has been my suggestion for about 15 yrs. When people begin to swim in the shit of their own making, they tend to come around a bit.

You don't really want to quit me do you? :(
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
117. Funny how when people in Texas say things about splitting from the union
it's because they're ignorant rednecks.

But when Californians say the same thing . . . ?
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. We are so greatly divided I can't see this country staying United for more than 50 years tops
I really don't want to live in a country where I have no control over my uterus or choice of partner. And I'm especially fearful that I won't be able to afford health care as I get older.

I know our country is trying, the democratic party IS trying, problem is the republicans are trying just as hard to make sure these things don't happen.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I am going to give it maybe 15-25 years. (n/t)
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. What I feel sorry for is those who are liberal who live in conservative states
Especially the ultra conservative ones.

:scared:
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #28
118. We were more divided in the 60s
1860s, and managed to stick together.

Granted it wasn't easy. It took some counseling, a lot of serious discussion and soul searching, and 600,000 dead but we managed . . . for the kids.
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devils chaplain Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
32. I used to think this could never happen...
But now I really think it could. The divide between the "sides" is growing greater by the day and there doesn't seem to be much common ground. If 9/11 couldn't bring us together for very long (I think the divide has gotten greater since) then I'm not sure what will. Plus, the states (conservative states in particular) are more and more asserting their independence and thumbing their noses at Washington. Add this to the rapidly changing demographics of this country and the associated change in voting patterns and I can realistically foresee a state/states at least asking the federal government for secession.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. If you were to ask me in 1985 if the U.S. will break up, I would have said No.
But now as I see it, it just looks like it could happen. It is also considerable that over 20 percent of people believe secession will happen again. All that may well be left of the U.S. is the Mid-Atlantic States (from Maryland to New York) and maybe D.C. but that would be it.




John

(The Cascadian is back!)

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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. We might split up into a few countries rather than 50 countries
Like the South will probably stay mostly intact. Texas, of course, because they'll always wanted it will stay by itself, but there's the West and the Mid West and the northern states.

Maybe it'll be along political lines. Red and blue states will stay together.

I would be fine with it as long as the citizens had a hand in drawing up the Constitution.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. It wouldn't be 50 countries.
It would be more like New England, perhaps the Southwest, Cascadia, Maybe the Midwest states could form a country, and some individual states breaking off, and some cases states dividing themselves like South Florida breaking away. All kinds of scenarios but I don't see it being a 50 country situation.




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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geardaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. As someone from MN
I could see there being a Great Lakes Federation or Rust Beltia or something.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. The map.
Free States and Slave States, before the Civil War





http://www.learner.org/biographyofamerica/prog10/maps/i...

The red and brown areas closely correspond to the Red States today. With a few exceptons, these areas have "stuck together" in their socio-politico-economic orientation since the Civil War and are likely to remain that way indefinitely. Hence, the future you suggest could break down naturally along these lines.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. the new maps



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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. It looks like you really want to make this about race.
Yeah, I'm joking in the form of understatement. Good luck on continuing to elude the admins, BP! We're all rooting for you!
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. All and all, it shouldn't be about race.
This is why I am a little leary about the Neo-Confederates, Aztlan, and New Afrika. It would translate into Balkanization. I hope it won't happen.





John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. Does Alaska get to be part of Cascadia
or can we just become part of the Yukon Territory (my personal preference)?
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Alaska is Alaska.
I cannot see our country Cascadia extending no further than B.C. to the North and perhaps all of Northern California North of Mount Lassen to the South. I can see Alaska maybe joining with Yukon in a Union. That would be better I would think. Alaska can forge good trade links with Cascadia as it always has been. Personally I don't want Cascadia any bigger than what we have now.




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Well, I'm all for that.
Cascadia will be a country that I will enjoy visiting. I'm very fond of that part of the world, and I'm glad you'll be including my beloved Northern California.

Alaska has much more in common with the Yukon than anywhere else, and I think I'd like to be Canadian. Or barring that, we could be our own country. The Alaska Independence Party would LOVE that. :)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. Oh lordy, please.
It's in no one's economic interest to break up the Union. Until it is, you have nothing to worry about. People who take secession seriously are idealogical loons. Idealogists may, in fact, be quite smart people with detailed reasoning behind their political notions... but they're still loons.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. The Founding Fathers were considered loony too! (n/t)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. +1. Where do people get these ideas?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. My guess is home schooling a/o bad parenting
In my experience, at least within the United States, most political extremists had pretty crappy relationships with their parents (mostly fathers, from what I've seen). Most of them on the left care a whole lot about the state of the world, but just have unanchored notions about how difficult and failure-prone it would be to radically re-engineer society.

The ones on the right tend to just be dicks.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
80. Ah.....no I went to public school and I went to college
WRONG! Try again!



John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Your news about George Kennan makes me sad.
I'm a fan of Kennan's. He was the principal architect of the strategy that defeated Soviet totalitarianism in the Cold War. But sadly, his final years, as he reached and then rounded the age of 100, do not add luster to his legacy. It seems that in his final dotage he came to argue in favor of New England separating from the US because... wait for it... he doesn't like Mexicans. link

Or consider the case of George Kennan, to whom The Vermont Manifesto is dedicated and whom Thomas Naylor calls, without any posthumous exaggeration, the godfather of the movement. Kennandiplomat, memoirist, the only Wise Man of the 1940s worthy of the sobriquethad speculated about devolving the U.S. into a dozen constituent republics in his valediction Around the Cragged Hill (1993).

Nearing his centenaryhe died March 17, 2005 at the age of 101Kennan became much taken with the idea of an independent Vermont, although he told Naylor that we are, I fear, a lonely band; until some of the things we have written are discovered by what we may hope will be a more thoughtful and serious generation of critics and reviewers, I am afraid we will remain that way.

Kennans secession letters, dictated from his sickbed, are pointed and poignant. All power to Vermont in its effort to distinguish itself from the USA as a whole, and to pursue in its own way the cultivation of its own tradition, he wrote in May 2002.

In his lengthiest discourse on the subject, Kennan wrote Naylor that in the matter of independence for Vermont and her neighbors, I see nothing fanciful, and nothing towards the realization of which the efforts of enlightened people might not be usefully directed. Such are at present the dominating trends in the U.S. that I can see no other means of ultimate preservation of cultural and societal values that will not only be endangered but eventually destroyed in an endlessly prolonged association of the northern parts of New England with the remainder of what is now the U.S.A.

Ah, but there is a complication. Kennan was attracted to the Second Vermont Republic partly because he deplored the Hispanicization of the United States. Instancing Mexican immigration, Kennan saw unmistakable evidences of a growing differentiation between the cultures, respectively, of large southern and southwestern regions of this country, on the one hand, and those of some northern regions, including Vermont. In the former, the very culture of the bulk of the population of these regions will tend to be primarily Latin-American in nature rather than what is inherited from earlier American traditions.

Could it really be that there was so little of merit in the American Republic, asked Kennan, that it deserves to be recklessly trashed in favor of a polyglot mix-mash?


There's no more recent articles that I can find on the topic than that 2005 article posted above. When the free Vermonter organization held that "big" rally the article talks about, they had all of 250 people show up. Even in a dinky state like Vermont, that's a poor excuse for a groundswell.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. Well to be honest these things are only starting.
It's going to take things to get much worse before more people embrace the idea of secessionism. I will admit that not many people are into the idea nor is it within some people's comprehension. Wait until things get worse. Then more people will come to it. I don't mean to build this up into a mass movement. It's still in its infancy.

John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #88
116. I hope your movement fails. It's a bad idea
I don't think people who like this idea have thought through the consequences very well. I suspect most Vermonters are too satisfied with being US citizens to give this fringe idea any consideration.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
53. Here's some other "broken up USA" map
All equally stupid

| | | | |

This is my fave, cause it's from Crimson Skies, a dogfighting video game where you get to shoot down Soviet and Nazi zepplins over New York, Hollywood, and Colorado. Fun!


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RevStPatrick Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
56. I am reminded of two books...
The Nine Nations of North America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_...

This one is from 1981, so the issues discussed are a bit outdated.
Fascinating, none-the-less.
And relevant to what you are saying.


The second book is The Fourth Turning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fourth_Turning

This book takes a seasonal/generational view of American history.
I mention this one because right now we have a generation (mine) of dumbasses running things.
Also, we are in the winter phase of history, and things will get worse before they get better.
Spring will inevitably come, and things will get better...

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
57. arrgh. there is no second vermont republic movement
No, the civil war was not fundamentally about state's rights. It was about economic issues and slavery. State's Rights is a veneer that the South shellacked onto their determination to continue slavery.

I don't like or dislike what you're saying; I disagree with much of it. Secession is not a viable solution to the problems of this country. If it comes, it will come after the near total collapse of the U.S.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #57
79. There is a Second Vermont Republic movement
http://www.vermontrepublic.org / Open your eyes!




John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #79
85. No, there isn't. I live here.
There's little interest in Naylor or this project. And when I say little, I mean very little.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. If that's so....
then why do I see reports that it's been growing. It's a bit like saying North Korea has no nuclear weapons program and yet they do.

John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
108. oh for pity's sake.
growing? uh, no. I live here. I'm involved in my community and politics. it's not something that the vast majority of Vermonters are even a little interested in. And do post some of those reports about it being a growing movement.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. By this time next year...
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 11:25 AM by Marrah_G
... there will be 7 more voters in VT in favor of the movement :)

We are looking at properties in Granville and Lyndon to build our mini-organic, permaculture, off the grid farm with our adult children in a couple weeks. I am wicked excited :)

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #91
106. hey, great! welcome .
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #106
115. Thanks
I love New England and I think Vermont embodies the best of it! I'm looking forward to spending the second half of my life surrounded by its beauty :)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
58. Respected Russian analyst's prediction of the dissolution of the United States
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 05:31 PM by Bucky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin#Prediction_of...



Igor Panarin predicted in 1998 that the US would look like this map above by 2010... after looking through the same alarmist goggles that you seem to be using. (see link above map for the Wikipedia article). When at the height of the Obama hatred Texas governor Rick Perry suggested Texas ought to secede, he was laughed off as a joke. He is a joke, albeit a joke with really purty hair.

Bonus: here's another bit of "US gonna fall" wankery from your cohorts at the Wall Street Journal

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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
60. I don't see it. Not in terms of red v. blue states anyway.
There are very few true "red" or "blue" states. Most are some shade of purple. There are no distinct lines for division. Moreover, even those states/regions that might be ripe for secession (e.g., the Southeast) have to realize that they are too poor to support themselves! If they secede, they become self-dependent; no more $$$$ from Washington.

The economics don't support the theory.

Bake
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
62. The only things that really keep this whole thing together are taxes and cheap energy
Paying taxes is the one thing that we all have in common in a society increasing individualized(which is either a good or bad thing, depending on who you ask, and what the topic is), and we're forced to do that under threat of penalty. Make paying taxes voluntary, let people pick and choose what they want to pay for, and how long does a mass society of 300 million+ people over thousands of miles of land stay together?

Cheap energy speaks for itself. It's what allows for such a vast, all inclusive, single system. The more expensive energy is, the more fragile this collectively agreed upon mass reality becomes. If energy is cheap, individualism increases in all ways(since we directly need other people less and less for a variety of tasks), we pay those taxes, and we all go about our days.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
63. Should your prophesy come true, I do see an upside.
All of the so-called John Galt types that think they can survive in a libertarian uptopia are going to be sadly surprised when they find out how interdependent they are on community for survival. Hopefully, those 'rugged individualists' who survive will have a new found respect for the value of socialism in their own lives.
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shayes51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
64. Well, I'll have to move..........
...........because I'd live in the bad half (Alabama).
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
66. While the US could very well break into many smaller states,
It won't be a pleasant process, and it won't be without a lot of violence.

The biggest obstacle in the way of your fantasy scenario is the simple fact that there is too much infrastructure and other assets that the government, along with the powers that be, will allow to go peacefully.

Furthermore, in order for this scenario of yours to happen, this country will have to go through a major crash and burn first. Think the fall of the Roman Empire on steroids, with nukes in play. There will be major violence involved as the central government tries to hold onto its disintegrating power base, and regional players try to take over as much land, and power, as they can.

Once the die is cast however, the balkanization of the states would continue unabated. Historical evidence speaks to this. After the Confederacy broke from the Union, within just three short year, the Deep South states of GA, AL and MS were already talking of going their own way, out of the Confederacy, as their own nation.

Speaking of history, you would be taken a lot more seriously if you didn't repeat that revisionist dribble about the Civil War being all about states' rights. That is simply after the fact claptrap designed to pull a polite fig leaf over the brutal fact that the South went to war in order to retain slavery. Don't believe me, go check your history. Every single Statement of Secession, including the one for the Confederacy itself, prominently refers to the retention of slavery(or, if you like, "our peculiar institution) as the primary reason for going out of the Union and going to war. Slaves were property, slaves were wealth, and the wealthy elite went to war in order to protect their own interests, their wealth, their slaves. Noble sentiments about state's rights were so much hokum to feed to the poor in order to get them riled up enough to join the Confederate Army.

Your breakup could very well happen, but we will all have to go through a dark, dark period of war, death, hunger, despair and violence in order to see that happen. It will be the break up of the modern Roman empire, followed by the modern Dark Ages. It isn't going to be peaceful, pretty, or fun.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
67. The only way I see a breakup happening would be if the federal government were destroyed.
Edited on Tue Apr-19-11 07:10 PM by MilesColtrane
And, I'm not talking about a major economic crisis, I mean physically destroyed.

A major terrorist attack on Washington and perhaps a few other large cities could precipitate some state governments attempting to fill the vacuum of power while others could split off in an attempt to distance themselves from the source of the violence.

I hope I don't live to see something like that happen.
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grillo7 Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
86. I agree.
Edited on Wed Apr-20-11 03:12 AM by grillo7
I don't really see this happening unless something truly catastrophic happened, like physical destruction of the federal government and it's representatives, or complete economic collapse. Do I think America is setting itself up for disaster? Sure, but I think if it sinks, it will do so as one unit.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
68. We shouldn't ignore the actual physical destruction of the planet, states, oceans, environment ....
While corporate fascism continues as a huge threat to us --

we must also keep Global Warming in mind!

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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
70. You guys are nuts.
(Somebody had to say it) :eyes:
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
71. Fuck. I thought I had sigs turned off.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
75. May I play devil's advocate here?
1. How is it possible for a state government to just slip right in there and begin supporting the infrastructure, minting coins, caring for its poor and hungry, defending its borders, and otherwise performing the duties of our ginormous federal bureauacracy?

2. Multinational gazillionaire corporations STILL own land, resources, and bricks-and-mortar facilities in each of our states. What happens to them and the resources they control? If the newly minted country (formerly a state) makes the multinationals go away, what jobs will the citizens have?

3. Since the CITIZENS of these newly formed countries will still be the same fear-controlled, uninformed, under-educated people, why will they suddenly agree to pay the higher taxes needed to support a new country (and to replace the federal subsidies they now receive)?

4. Since the Executive Branch controls the machinery of war, how can a state-now-country defend itself against what will remain of the national military infrastructure?



** Your scenario is an iteresting one, and I swear, sometimes I fear that something like this will happen (again -- since it already happened once). But I'm just trying to think through to the consequences of such a scenario.
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Cal33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
97. It won't be 50 different countries. It might be half a dozen different countries.
The states with low population-count will find it too hard to become
an independent country, as you pointed out. It could take several
states in one area where the majority of the people are of a particular
political leaning, for example, to form one separate country.

I doubt the above is going to happen soon -- if at all.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
77. States do not have a right to secede. Texas v. White, 1869
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR...

The Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. White in 1869 that states do not have a constitutional right to secede.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. A different time and a different situation (n/t)
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
110. Unless I'm mistaken, Supreme Court decisions don't simply expire
Just because this Supreme Court decision was made back in 1869, doesn't mean that it's any less valid today. Unless another secession case comes up before the SCOTUS and they rule otherwise, this case holds precedent.
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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
103. i believe the civil war settled the issue before the supreme court did
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-19-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
78. I only read your topic.
It will be. So what?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
89. This is one of the reasons my family is working towards a move to VT
We are looking at two sites the weekend after next weekend for our off the grid organic mini-farm.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
90. The corporations won't allow it...
so, ain't gonna happen
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Cal33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Yeah, their power will be divided. They won't like it.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
93. Why do you think the republicans want to eliminate the middle class (since 1985)
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Cal33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Most Repubs. think in terms of the immediate advantage (raking in
more money). They can't think far ahead enough to realize that it's the middle-class
that does all the productive work. F.i., all the modern conveniences in daily living
resulted from the scientists (who came out with new inventions), and the technicians
and laborers (who manufactured the products in factories). But they cost money, and
the Repubs. want all the money for themselves.

But without the middle-class around there won't be enough people to provide the labor.
Pubs aren't too bright, aren't they? Even if they win, they can't help but ultimately
self-destruct!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
95. well good luck with all of that
:rofl:
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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
101. I say, bring it the fuck on! Sure, I'll have to move, but lets get this shit over with.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
102. To all you detracters and those who think it will never ever happen...
keep in mind that Romans thought their Empire would last for eternity. The Nazis thought their Reich would last a thousand years. The British thought that the Sun would never set on their Empire. What happened to them? Arrogance and being all powerful does not mean you'll have it forever. I also believe that this attitude that it would never happen is a blend of denial, arrogance, and sheer fear of the unknown. It is OK to be scared of what people cannot foresee and what is different. That is human nature. However is so this attitude that things will always last forever. America is no longer a superpower. We are in decline. What do you think is going to happen? Too big to fail my foot!

Another factor for this attitude against the idea of secession is indoctrination and the skewed, distorted American History that we have all been taught from elementary school to even college. There was never meant for America to have a "Manifest Destiny" nor were we meant to have overseas territories nor be involved in world conflicts. Anybody who thinks we are not an Empire let alone thinks the U.S. is invincible better go back to school, study, and try to think for themselves.


Wake up, people!



John

(The Cascadian is back!)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. sure the empire will end. no duh.
does that mean your little scenario will play out? maybe, but doubtful. In any case, lots and lots of things can and will happen in 30 or 50 years, so speculating is just for entertainment.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
104. Might I suggest Paul Kennedy's 'Rise and Fall of the Great Powers'?
"The truth of the matter is that secession for any state/region is probably a generation away at best"
Or more accurately ... "The OPINION of the matter is that secession..."



Might I suggest Paul Kennedy's 'Rise and Fall of the Great Powers'?
Size, popular will, and regional differences do not correlate in any measurable way to national strength, agenda or potential longevity.

Every country is born, lives and dies. Your editorial (I almost called it analysis, but deemed editorial as the appropriate label) seems little more than post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
105. A fool's errand. Our military will squash us like
bugs. If you think the last Civil War was bad, you haven't seen anything yet. We need to retake control of our government from within.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-11 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
114. lol. the isolationist manifesto!
:rofl:
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