Can a person who is drunk consent to sex?

[Rage for Order]

Male or female? Assuming that said person remains conscious.

Euphoria (BAC = 0.03 to 0.12%)

* Overall improvement in mood and possible euphoria
* Increased self-confidence
* Increased sociability
* Shortened attention span
* Flushed appearance
* Inhibited judgment
* Impaired fine muscle coordination

Lethargy (BAC = 0.09 to 0.25%)

* Sedation
* Impaired memory and comprehension
* Delayed reactions
* Ataxia; balance difficulty; unbalanced walk
* Blurred vision; other senses may be impaired

Confusion (BAC = 0.18 to 0.30%)

* Profound confusion
* Emotional lability
* Impaired senses
* Analgesia
* Increased ataxia; impaired speech; staggering
* Dizziness often associated with nausea ("the spins")
* Vomiting (emesis)

Stupor (BAC = 0.25 to 0.40%)

* Severe ataxia
* Lapses in and out of consciousness
* Unconsciousness
* Anterograde amnesia
* Vomiting (death may occur due to inhalation of vomit (pulmonary aspiration) while unconscious)
* Respiratory depression (potentially life-threatening)
* Decreased heart rate
* Urinary incontinence

Coma (BAC = 0.35 to 0.50%)

* Unconsciousness (coma)
* Depressed reflexes (i.e., pupils do not respond appropriately to changes in light)
* Marked and life-threatening respiratory depression
* Markedly decreased heart rate
* Most deaths from alcohol poisoning are caused by dosage levels in this range.


***Edited to add a link for the source of the BAC information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-term_effects_of_alcohol

[Journeyman]

1. They can consent, but the better question might be, should you ask? . . .

[ThomCat]

39. Legally, if judgement is impared, no they cannot consent.

Anyone who enjoys taking advantage of others because they are drunk is likely to feel differently. After all, getting women drunk is a longstanding traditional method men use to get to women, without having to bother with all those annoying things like,

• Getting to know her,
  
• Allowing her to get to know you,
  
• Having enough mutual information and communication so that you both know you both want to have sex, and that you want to have sex with each other,
  
• Discussing details about safe sex, what you each want or like, etc.

Having one person drunk (usually her) allows the other person (usually him) to skip all that communication stuff and ignore what the other person might think, or want, or not want.

That saves a whole lot of time, and fuss when all you really care about is what you want.

Given all of that, it's understandable that people who are only concerned about themselves and what they want would like the idea of alcohol impairment as a dating strategy. But that does not change the fact that someone who is drunk is not consenting, and can't meaningfully consent. What is being described is rape.

[LisaL]

2. So if they are both drunk, charge them both with rape?

We aren't going to have enough prisons.

[ThomCat]

42. No. If htey are both drunk then neither of them were in a possition

to make a reasonable, informed decision. So unless there was force and violence involved, no charges are filed.

Even under the influence, you are always responsible for any harm or violence or damage you cause. You are always required to have enough control to prevent harm. So if you physically hurt someone, you can still be charged.

But if two people are drunk, and sexual activity took place, without any violence, that alone isn't going to get anyone charged.

Honestly, I don't know why people think this is such a complicated or difficult issue to understand.

[Tunkamerica]

46. so, super drunk woman in your room... chug a few beers and its cool?

[ThomCat]

53. Um... No.

If you made the decision when you were sober, you're just drinking to avoid taking responsibility for choices you made before you started drinking.

Wow... That's all kinds of wrong.. Premeditation, planning how to use alcohol to avoid responsibility, trying to figure out how to rape and get away with it because you were drinking too? Very, very ugly!

[Tunkamerica]

65. It was obviously a facetious question asked to point out the flaws in the argument.

No need to call in the mounties.

[Cid_B]

73. Question...

If my wife and I go out to dinner and she has wine and I don't ( responsible DD that I am) and then we go home and *ahem* go at it.

Did I just rape my wife as she was unable to consent with alcohol in her system?

[uppityperson]

74. Do you mean legally? Do you find it shocking that a husband can rape a wife?

2 questions for you to answer please.

[Cid_B]

75. Ok...

1) I do mean legally. If my wife was fully aware of her surroundings after 1 glass of wine (maybe a pleasant buzz - she's a tiny thing) and consented to mutual nookie... Would I then be guilty of rape as per some posts here?

2) Not sure what you are looking for here. I find rape between a husband and wife just as offensive as that between anyone else.

[uppityperson]

81. thank you got your answer. If she chose to press charges, yes, it could be rape

(edit for typo) Hence beware of whom you have sex with while drinking.

Regarding 2), thank you. Even in recent times I've heard people deny a husband could rape a wife. Or whatever partnership they have, that if they are in a relationship that has involved sex, that rape is not possible.

Thank you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Yes. n/t

[al_liberal]

4. I consent at every opportunity

But I rarely get any takers :-)

[ThomCat]

43. Thank you for sharing.

It's always nice when someone doesn't take the topic seriously. Rape is definitely one of those issues we don't want people taking seriously, after all. :eyes:

[woo me with science]

51. Oh please. .

Try to be nice. For all you know, the poster was drunk and therefore not responsible for what was written. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

62. If you're going to define every act of drunk sex as "rape"

it is you who are going to quickly turn that word into a parody of itself.

[ThomCat]

83. That clearly was not the point of my post, or the point of any post

in this thread.

But thank you for playing. :eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

84. The Topic of the Thread is, "Can a drunk person consent to sex"

Your response, which was only two generations down from the OP, included the word "rape" and accused the previous poster of "not taking it seriously". Therefore, it's pretty legitimate to assume that when you are asked about the idea of drunk people consenting to sex, your answer is no, and that such sex is "rape".

If I'm wrong, please, explain why that's not a logical take-away from your response.

[ThomCat]

86. You're deliberately overgeneralizeing to make it seem as if

people who take rape seriously are against drinking, and people who think it's okay to drink should dismiss the concerns about drinking and rape.

That is what is ridiculous, and obnoxious to boot.

[Warren DeMontague]

90. No, I'm not. You were the one who equated the topic of the thread to rape.

So, if drunk sex doesn't equal rape, what does it equal?

[ThomCat]

114. Being drunk and having sex only equals rape

if one of you is drunk and the other one used that to avoid getting consent.

How hard is that to understand?

Why would you want to deny this, mock this, belittle it, or imply that this means that anyone thinks all drinking is bad?

:wtf:

Are you totally unable to understand an issue with even the slightest bit of responsibility, contingency or nuance in it? Aren't you an adult yet?

[Johonny]

115. I agree with you

First he tells you a drunk person can never give consent. Later he tells us they can. Confused? I am. Now I've lost interest in this thread.

[TheKentuckian]

5. Absolutely and I can't believe anyone who has been drunk would think otherwise.

[dkf]

6. Maybe only men can consent when drunk?

[laconicsax]

9. Technically, no one can consent when drunk.

If a sober woman has sex with a drunk man, he can legally charge her of rape depending on the local statutes.

[dkf]

11. So how can a man rape anyone when he is drunk and can't consent?

Is it mutual rape if two people are drunk?

[laconicsax]

15. My guess is that intoxication can be used as a defense in some cases.

Namely if both parties consent while drunk. I'm not a legal expert, but my understanding is that if person A resists or refuses to give consent to person B, it doesn't matter whether B is drunk or not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. The OP is predicated on being conscious.

verbal consent is implied.

[laconicsax]

7. Legally they cannot.

Of course it depends on the jurisdiction.

[LisaL]

8. Only if they are too drunk.

[laconicsax]

14. That's something that depends on the jurisdiction.

Here in Oregon, rape in the first degree includes sex with a person who is "mentally incapacitated," which is defined as meaning "that a person is rendered incapable of appraising or controlling the conduct of the person at the time of the alleged offense."

That's broad enough to include impaired judgement, which doesn't take much in most people.

[Odin2005]

10. I would draw the line at the Confusion level.

[gejohnston]

12. no

at least past the first stage. I agree with Journeyman. Even if it is not rape, I think it is ungentlemanly kind of sleazy. Correction really sleazy. That is not to say that if I were drunk and a sober lady hit on me, you get the picture.

[uppityperson]

13. Define "drunk", since you post all sorts of BAC. What is "drunk"?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

16. Anyone who is impaired cannot consent to anything.

In the hospital, a patient cannot legally consent for surgery or any other procedure if narcotics are on board.

Therefore, a drunk person, being impaired, cannot consent to sex.

[LisaL]

17. Then how is it possible to charge someone with DUI?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

23. That's easy.

The person charged with DUI isn't consenting to anything.

S/he is being charged.

[LisaL]

32. Really? So on one hand, someone who is drunk

can not rationally decide to have sex? On the other hand, that same person can rationally decide to get into a car and drive?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

35. If they're drunk, they are not rational.

They're driving drunk, and that is illegal.

[Tunkamerica]

47. but they made the decision to drive after becoming impaired.

it's a logical question without a logical answer that will make anyone here happy.

[uppityperson]

36. If someone who is drunk chooses to murder someone, are they liable?

[uppityperson]

25. What? DUI means driving under the influence, has nothing to do with consent.

[uppityperson]

24. They can consent, but not legally. They can't legally consent. If they do consent, it won't hold

up in court. Which makes it a pain trying to get a legal consent for surgery when a person is on pain meds/narcotics/etc.

They can say "sure, go right ahead, peachy" but legally no.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

27. Exactly!

And, FWIW, I did mean legally consent.

As a retired RN, believe me, I know!

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Medical professionals are equipped to know when that consent is not informed.

They administered the drugs and know exactly how impaired the patient is.

[uppityperson]

34. Been there, done that, not always, it can be difficult, etc etc etc.eom

[former9thward]

41. They can consent to sex in all 50 states.

No judge would agree with your definitions.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

44. And you know this.........how?

[former9thward]

45. I am in the field but do not take my word for it as I know you won't.

Just ask any criminal defense attorney. My answer is based on the assumptions given in the OP.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

48. OK. And thank you for your civil reply.

I wonder if my son-in-law would know. He's a detective.

[defendandprotect]

18. NO --- !!!

[Rage for Order]

69. Not at any point on the continuum of drinking alcohol?

What about after two glasses of wine in 30 minutes?

[defendandprotect]

70. Seemingly you want to avoid the word "DRUNK" in the OP --

No -- a woman who is DRUNK cannot consent to having sex --

And certainly no woman who has been DRUGGED can consent to having sex --

and that seems to be a growing problem -- even in the miltiary!!

[snooper2]

112. What if say you are floating on the Guadalupe river with your girlfriend

And say you may have accidently been smoking weed all day..

And you may have been involved in a couple key bumps during the 8 hour float..

and lots of beer...and smokes, and wet fucking lighters..

How come no matter what steps you take to always have a dry lighter during a float trip, they always fail. Every time,
Always half way in and nobody can light a damn smoke. gotta paddle your fat ass across the river to somebody smoking so you can light your smoke up.

Anyway, I digress...


So then you end up back at camp and bounce like bunnies? Anybody in the business of consenting there?

[JI7]

19. i'm guessing yes unless getting drunk was done involuntarily ?

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. This is a fascinating subject.

Is it just sex? Can you be too drunk to purchase something? Too drunk to enter into any other kind of agreement? Can I demand my tips back if I believe that the server exploited my impairment for personal financial gain?

Doesn't incapacity mean that you have reduced responsibility for your choices - and become legally a child? If you are incapable of rationally deciding to have sex, doesn't it also imply that you have an impaired ability to understand that your actions may be criminal? If I'm too drunk to have sex, how can you hold me responsible for other choices I make, such as driving?

Is the threshold of incapacity different for each gender? Should the threshold at which people are treated as children be different depending on your gender? If so, does this not imply that the gender with the lower threshold is inherently more childlike? What about same sex relationships? Can a person with a given degree of impairment consent to sex with one gender but not the other?

[uppityperson]

28. DUI is not being held responsible for chosing to drive, but for driving while impaired.

Rather like murder charge is not for the CHOICE of killing someone but for the murder.

[LisaL]

31. How did they got to drive while impaired?

Before they got into a car, they obviously chose to drive.

[uppityperson]

33. and they are penalized for the act of driving while under the influence.

[uppityperson]

72. I think you are confusing the criminal/perp with the victim.

You can be victimized while drunk. You can be a criminal while drunk. If you do a crime while drunk, they may take that into consideration but still you committed the crime.

[ZombieHorde]

22. I have the intellectual ability to consent to sex while drunk (0.1-0.25),

Others may not have this ability.

My wife and I sometimes get drunk and have fun. What some call rape, we call a playful expression of love.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. How is a partner to know the point at which you become inculpable? n/t

[ZombieHorde]

54. Lovers should discuss this before drinking, but having this conversation is not always practical.

This is usually very practical for relationships, but usually not practical for one night stands.

[Forkboy]

26. All of Bourbon Street just alerted on this.

[fairfaxvadem]

37. I struggle with this one...

I've had my rounds of mutual "drunk" sex. My friends and I back in the day were a pretty rowdy crowd. (full disclosure: I am female)

Now, I have the singular good fortune of being able to handle my various states of intoxication, and usually alcohol was not the only thing I imbibed. I've never blacked out and woken up in a place I didn't want to be. I can name, good or ill, every person I ever slept with. Sober or not, and when. Always, my choice. Genetics? In part, I think so. Control freak, no matter what? Absolutely. In my 40s now, in a work environment that requires the occasional blow-out at the annual conferences, etc., well, I'm basically a professional partier, for good or for ill.

However, I've observed others over the years, since high school really, and they are all women, for whom alcohol or other intoxicants, put them in a zone that I don't recognize. It has frightened me to see this, and I've helped many a stranger or acquaintance at a party or what have you, get out of some seriously bad situations. And even now, as an adult, I still encounter this once in a while in professional settings.

Here's the rub. I don't excuse anyone for taking advantage of someone whose ability to decide is so compromised. Period. It's an ugly thought to me. But for me, that's not the issue. If you force yourself on someone who has no capacity or willingness to consent (force with a weapon, intoxication, whatever it is), it's rape. Period. A close family member was a victim of rape by a stranger who broke into her home. It's vile and devastating.

But, people party. They drink, they smoke, they do drugs sometimes. So what I've not been able to reconcile myself to since my teens, is why some folks, and perhaps I should be really honest and say "girls/women," since in terms of consent, they are the ones always taken advantage of in my experience (I have never experienced the male version socially), get to a point of intoxication where they simply don't know what's going on. I've experienced many times where the whispers went around the party about some girl being so out of it, and the ensuing stories. They weren't always rescued by friends.

Why are some of us, who are of a partying nature, able to "manage our buzz," and others not? By the time my friends and I went off to college, we were pros - spent too many nights in high school bringing in the morning paper, if you know what I mean. And then we encountered the girls who never had a drink until their freshman year of college. We had no idea - we thought all high schoolers were like us - it was a shock to see a lot of them at parties.

I've told some parents over the years (I have no children) that I don't know what to say, when this topic comes up. On the one hand, you don't want to encourage your teen to drink or experiment with drugs. Fair enough. On the other hand, my friends and I, because we did that whole parade of horribles since 8th grade basically, knew how to hold a drink by the time we went to college and whatever else came our way, were never in situations we couldn't get out of because of intoxication. Nothing to be proud of, looking back - but under the circumstances of high school and college in the '80s, it was a survival skill, I'll say that much.

In these types of situations, it's a conundrum. I have no answer.

[Tunkamerica]

50. I think the question presupposes it was consensual non-violent sex at the time

what happens when one person wakes up, looks over and sees what they got into the previous night and decides they were raped because they blacked out (or not even blacked out... just were out of control)?

[provis99]

38. well,

I have been in an occasion where I was drunk, and SHE was not. And I was not interested in her sexually when sober. So was I raped?

Frankly, if having sex while drunk means one was raped, then the majority of men at college have been raped by women.

[ecstatic]

40. When you get drunk in a public place, you've essentially turned yourself

over to the mercy of strangers. Whether male or female, it's difficult or almost impossible to make rational decisions when intoxicated. That's why it's best to avoid getting drunk, unless you're 100% sure someone who cares about you will be protecting you.

[Bonobo]

49. Denying a person the right to say yes is not very different than denying their right to say no.

Both of them are symptoms of a kind of condescending attitude that says "I know better than you, so shut up and do what I say."

[woo me with science]

55. Good post.

I get very tired of the constant drive to infantilize adults.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Oh, now you've done it.

Good answer, by the way.

[woo me with science]

52. Of course they can.

Adulthood is not annulled by inebriation. Good god, how many children were conceived by children if it were.

[JVS]

56. A good reason to have your date be the designated driver.

[Rex]

57. IMO - you decide to consent when you both agree to have sex

and neither person is coerced or drugged by outside forces. The mental state of both participants would be the variable. Drunk guy sexually assaults sober woman, jail time. Sober guy has his way with a drunk woman, could be jail time. Drunk guy has drunk sex with a drunk woman, could be an std hangover. Just depends on the scenario.

[Lyric]

58. This is such a tough question, especially for women.

One on hand, if we say "No", we're saying that even married people who agree BEFOREHAND to get drunk and mess around are raping each other...and that's obviously not the case.

But if we say "Yes", we're denying the fact that you CAN be too drunk to consent, especially when the sex is with someone who's not committed to you in a relationship.

This is one of those areas where there are lots of shades of gray. I would say that, if it's your spouse/fiancee/longterm SO, and he/she is still coherent enough to be fully awake and aware of where you are and what you're doing, you're probably okay ONLY if said spouse is actively participating and isn't just lying there wasted. But if it's some girl or guy that you met at a party or in a bar, even if they still seem relatively coherent, even if they're crawling all over you, you should assume that they're too drunk to consent. Why? Because if you choose otherwise and they disagree the next morning, you could find yourself on the scary side of a court trial, and worse--you might have to face the horrible fact that you did, indeed, rape someone. That's gotta be a nightmare to live with if you have any sort of conscience at all.

Sex, no matter how hot the person might be, is NOT worth that.

[howard112211]

59. I would say it all depends on circumstance and what sort of relationship the two people have.

There can be drunk sex that is not sexual violence, exploitation or rape, yes.

I had sex with my drunk girlfriend before. Neither of us thought much of it. Actually I had a few drinks myself at that time, but that is another issue. If someone had later suggested that this was somehow non-consentual, they would have gotten a confused look and maybe a "whatever. you are nuts" from both of us.

On the other hand, it usually is an issue when people are not involved with each other otherwise, drunk bar pick-ups or getting someone drunk so they will "put out", that sort of thing. Comparing apples to oranges. Such cases are often exploitation and rape.

In a way it is sad that this is even an issue that has to be discussed. All sorts of things can happen in a loving relationship, that are consentual, even if somewhere there exists a person who may argue that someones ability to make judgements was temporarily impaired.

Somehow this whole discussion seems very "American" to me. Some people simply don't need permission from the political correctness police to have consentual sex, drunk or otherwise.

[thelordofhell]

60. Yes

[Xithras]

61. Most people, at some point, sleep with someone while drunk and later regret it.

Hence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_sex#Beer_goggles

There's nothing quite like waking up hungover, staring into a strangers face, thinking "Oh my god, what was I THINKING?"

Male or female makes no difference. Most of us do it at some point in our lives.

Is it unfortunate. Yes. Should it be criminal? Absolutely not.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. One of the big reasons people get drunk is to have sex.

I mean, it is.

Here's a standard for consent: If someone is capable of expressing their consent in a reasonably lucid fashion, they're consenting.

[quaker bill]

66. Good point.

[darkstar3]

85. THAT is quite a statement, being both incorrect, and very wrong.

:thumbsdown:

[Warren DeMontague]

91. Which part? You don't think people -of both genders- don't go out, get drunk, and fool around,

all on purpose?

Jesus, where did you go to college?

Okay, let's break it down:

Can anyone who has been drinking consent to sex? Yes, or no.

If the answer is "no", then is that rape? Is every act of sex where one or both partners have been drinking, by definition, non-consensual and rape? Or is it by defintion non-consensual but somehow an area of non-consent that isn't rape?

If every act of sex that is in any way, shape, or form associated with any consumption of alcohol IS "rape", all I can say is there is a REAL LOT of rape going on out there. :shrug:

[darkstar3]

107. Let me see if I can express this in a way you can understand.

"Jesus, where did YOU go to college?!?!"

No, I think it's going to take more than that.

You said that "one of the big reasons people get drunk is to have sex." This statement runs counter not only to my experience, but also to common sense. Without getting into too much biological detail, alcohol makes sexual intercourse more difficult, and in extreme cases of inebriation can make sexual intercourse impossible. That would be one of the many reasons why there's an entire (albeit annoying) song entitled "Too drunk to fuck."

Aside from the biological problems of your statement, there's also the aspect of planning. People, especially college kids, don't go out and get drunk just so they can fuck afterward. They go out and get drunk because alcohol is a mind-altering substance that serves as a mood elevator. This is also why they can become addicted to the substance. The fact that fucking often follows consumption of alcohol after a college party serves only to illustrate the fact that both consumption of alcohol and sex are fun, and fun seeking college kids are likely to do both. To state, however, based on this correlation that "one of the big reasons people get drunk is to have sex" is to ignore the following facts:

1. They got drunk to get drunk, not to have sex.
2. There are a myriad of much bigger reasons that adults drink, and focusing on the drinking habits of college kids is going to severely skew your view of alcohol consumption.

Now, to address your other point. The way you phrase the question leaves no room for proper discussion. You have purposely left out the concept of "drunk" that was originally included in the OP. In order to approach this topic with any semblance of honesty, we must first agree to some terms.

A. Due to the simple biological fact of "alcohol tolerance", "drunk" will mean different BAC levels for different people.
B. The law already accepts that an adult cannot consent to contractual obligations while sufficiently under the influence, or "drunk". If you think I'm wrong, just try to close escrow on a house while smelling of rum.
C. This same concept of informed consent is used as a safety measure to prevent lawsuits in many tattoo parlors. If you're drunk, and they can tell, they won't ink you.
D. Rape can be easily defined as any sexual activity between two or more people where at least one of the partners did not give PRIOR consent.

Now let's take all of these simple items together. Items B and C show that a person CAN be too drunk to consent. Item A shows that this particular threshold is different for each individual. Item D is where our problem lies. Since we know that an individual can be too drunk to consent, but we don't know how much alcohol is necessary for that level of drunkenness to be reached, that means that sex with a person who's been drinking could always turn out to be rape. That many people, here and elsewhere, do all they can to avoid admitting that possibility, or to excuse their drunken behavior, is merely another example of "rape culture," as is the fact that I actually have to tell you that non-consensual sex is always rape.

Items B, C, and D are what lead many people on this board to believe that we should be able to codify in legal code the "fact" that drunk sex is rape. Item A, however, makes it nearly impossible to do so because there would be no way for law enforcement to quantitatively verify drunkenness as they must do with drunk driving. But while each side of this debate talks about legality, they talk around each other and ignore the concepts of common sense and decency.

We'll probably never be able to legally define drunk sex as rape. Social acceptability, however, is a different story. It is easy to see, for anyone with half a brain and a willingness to admit it, that drunken sex, especially where one partner is significantly more drunk than another, is predatory, dangerous, and ill-advised. This is why I abide by a simple axiom: "If they wouldn't have fucked me sober, it's rape."

[uppityperson]

109. Thank you so much.

I very much appreciate your taking time to write this. Thanks.

[darkstar3]

113. Some days I'm "on" like that.

:hi:

[uppityperson]

87. If you seriously have to get drunk to have sex, I feel sorry for you. No, it isn't a big reason for

getting drunk. Good grief.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. No, sorry, nice try at making this about me (why can't people discuss issues without doing that?)

I actually don't drink, haven't drank for a very long time, and my sex life is just fine TYVM.

But obviously you never went to college, or you weren't paying attention when you did. You don't think there's a lot of people for whom getting drunk and having sex or screwing around are part of the normal weekend plans? What planet are you on?

[uppityperson]

98. Yes, I went to college and had sex while drinking, but know no one who drank so they could have sex

They were perfectly capable of having sex without drinking. Obviously there are lots of people who drink and have sex, but you wrote "One of the big reasons people get drunk is to have sex" which I dispute. They drink and have sex but don't drink to have sex. Can you see the difference?

Speaking about " nice try at making this about me (why can't people discuss issues without doing that?)", I learned from you my friend.

[Warren DeMontague]

102. Glad to help. So you drank and had sex, others you knew drank & had sex

but the act of drinking implies automatic non-consent, apparently.

So were these all 'rapes'? Or can people who have been drinking sometimes consent?

[uppityperson]

103. Again, I am disputing this."One of the big reasons people get drunk is to have sex"

People drink AND have sex. Few people drink TO have sex. Do you understand that? Can you, will you answer?

To answer your question, it depends on if you are talking legally or ethically, and how impaired.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. I'm not inside everyone's head, but the high correlation of getting drunk and screwing around

on places like college campuses implies, to me, a certain cause and effect relationship. Certainly you wouldn't dispute that many ppl. drink to lower social inhibitions and feel more comfortable meeting new people? :shrug:

Now, can you answer my question? Can people who have been drinking sometimes actually consent? Ever? Or never? Because that's the topic of the thread.

[uppityperson]

106. You do not understand the difference between drinking AND have sex & drinking TO have sex

got it, thank you. Or do you mean people drink TO have sex with strangers since sober they wouldn't? Which is telling on this thread that is about how alcohol affects your ability to reason and consent.

If you read the message of my previous post, I answered you starting with "to answer your question".

[Warren DeMontague]

108. Gotcha. That's pretty much my take on it, too.

Guess we agree. :shrug:

[quaker bill]

94. Physiologically, we are all quite capable of it sober

but if you haven't noticed, these two things happen together rather often. It is why they have the line "don't drink to excess" in the viagra commercials. People actually need to be reminded.

[uppityperson]

96. alcohol can increase some of the side effects of viagra, hence the warning Not about sex while drunk

"don't drink to excess" is due to potential side effects, not about getting drunk and having sex.

http://www.drugs.com/viagra.html
Avoid drinking alcohol, which can increase some of the side effects of Viagra.

http://erectile-dysfunction.emedtv.com/viagra/viagra-and-alcohol.html

Research on Viagra and Alcohol
Both Viagra and alcohol can have similar effects on blood vessels, causing them to dilate (open wider). However, studies did not show such problems in men who combined the two to achieve a blood alcohol level of 0.08 percent (legally intoxicated).

Although studies indicate that combining alcohol with Viagra is unlikely to cause problems, it is a good idea to be aware of problems that could theoretically occur due to overly dilated blood vessels, such as:

Dizziness
A rapid heart rate (tachycardia)
Low blood pressure.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. If the mere act of combining sex with alcohol is inherently criminal

they shouldn't be talking about it in the ad.

[uppityperson]

99. They shouldn't warn people about side effects? Oh. Kay.

[Warren DeMontague]

100. They should warn people that fucking after drinking a beer will put them in prison.

Then, they should warn them that the self-righteous morality lunatics have completely taken over the asylum.

[uppityperson]

101. Drug companies are responsible for warning about side effects related to their drugs. Not other

things. Perhaps alcohol manufacturers should put a warning on their bottles but no, drug companies are not responsible for warning people about things like that. Only about things related to the medicine.

[Badsam]

64. Whatever.

[markpkessinger]

67. The problem with the question

There's an inconsistency about the way we approach the question of alcohol intoxication in this particular context (i.e., sexual) and the way we treat it in all other contexts. Let me explain.

If a person goes out and gets terribly drunk, and then makes the decision to drive a car and winds up causing an accident that kills or seriously injures someone, or if s/he goes home and beats up on the spouse or kids, or commits any other type of crime, we don't hold that person any less responsible for his decision to drive/abuse people/commit some other crime because of the fact that s/he was drunk. Rather, we hold them responsible both for the decision to get drunk (not a crime in itself) as well as for any decisions/actions taken during that drunkenness. So, if drunkenness is not permitted as an excuse for criminal/negligent acts that result, why, then, should a drunk person with morning-after remorse be permitted to excuse himself/herself from his/her own responsibility for this decision and placing it on another person, who may or may not have known whether the person was drunk?

[uppityperson]

71. Victim vs perpetrator. Let's try another example. If you get drunk and someone robs you,

can they be arrested for robbing you?

Being drunk and being raped, or robbed, or beaten makes you the victim. The person who raped, robbed or beat you is the criminal.

If you are drunk and commit a crime, you are liable for that crime as you are the the perpetrator.

Legally drunk people can be a victim of a crime, or can commit the crime. If you commit a crime, even if drunk, you are a criminal.

[LisaL]

76. I think better analogy would be, if you get drunk and give someone

your wallet, were you robbed?

[uppityperson]

82. Am I understanding you that a person can do anything drunk, break any law, have no responsibility?

If I were with someone who was drunk, and they tried to give me the hundred dollars in their wallet, I wouldn't take it unless it were a friend of mine, and then I'd give it back to them when they sobered up. I would be holding onto it for a bit, not keeping it.

Which doesn't work with having sex.

[JonLP24]

68. I believe

I consented while drunk before.

[Renew Deal]

77. The answer is yes depending on how drunk the person is and the nature of the relationship.

Two people that are dating can be as drunk as can be and they'll consent without issue. Strangers that truly are at Lethargy and above are a different story.

[LisaL]

78. I do not believe that a law makes that

distinction. In other words, there is nothing in the rape laws regarding dating.

[Renew Deal]

79. The law doesn't come into play unless someone complains

And generally you or your longtime boyfriend or girlfriend will not feel victimized by drunk sex. Like I said, it depends on the relationship.

[LisaL]

88. Well of course it doesn't come into play unless someone complains.

But that applies to drunk strangers having sex as well.

[Fuddnik]

80. Now, about this tattoo........

[Cerridwen]

89. Are we talking law or ethics? They can be, and frequently are,

incompatible. What happened to our economy was legal; I'd argue it wasn't necessarily ethical. Then there are Jim Crow laws which were legal, and again I'd argue not ethical. Laws against women speaking in public, laws against homosexual intercourse, laws against blacks marrying whites, etc. Now, back to topic.

How competent do I have to be to be held to a contract I sign? Am I responsible for a reverse mortgage if I am so drunk I can't sign my name? What if I have dementia? Am I still responsible for repaying the mortgage? What if I can't spell my name? What if I've just had one cocktail or glass of wine but I'm a light-weight?

I'm not associating sex with contracts but I am talking about legal obligations and lack thereof with regards to culpability.

Now, another question for you; why do you ask? Why is there some boundary at which a woman "asked for it" "consented to it" versus NO, NO, GODDAMMIT NO! when it comes to "sex"; which rape really isn't.

If there's ever a question, my guess, the person's committed rape and is looking for an out. If you cannot say for sure you had consensual, sexual relations, you crossed that line and quit trying to fucking justify it.

[joshcryer]

95. Only when they wake up from it.

Strangely, there are few men who, when waking up beside someone they abhor, call rape, though the instances are surely as many as women waking up with a similar feeling.

[LanternWaste]

105. Within my own bubble of ethics...

Within my own bubble of ethics and all things being equal, the answer would be no-- no sober consent possible from a stranger.

[Fuzz]

110. Well, I won't press charges. I like martinis btw.

[lapislzi]

111. Yes. And no.

I have consented to sex when 1) a little drunk. Wasn't much fun.

2) A lot drunk. I was annoyed with myself, but I accepted responsibility for my consent.

I have refused sex when 1) a little drunk. Not a problem. You get up, you leave, you turn over and go to sleep.

2) A lot drunk. Again, 99 times out of 100 (and I'm not saying I've done this 100 times), the same thing happens as in 1) above. Once, not. That was when I was raped.

There's just no really clear-cut answer.

[snooper2]

116. This would be a mute issue if these were outlawed

:P