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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:47 AM
Original message
Groundwater radiation level at nuke plant rises: TEPCO + Japan may move capital from Tokyo
Source: Kyodo News Japan

"The concentration levels of radioactive iodine and cesium in groundwater near the troubled Nos. 1 and 2 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have increased up to several dozen times in one week, suggesting that toxic water has seeped from nearby reactor turbine buildings or elsewhere, Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Thursday.

The announcement came as the plant operator continued to grapple with pools of highly radioactive water found on the plant's premises, with the level of polluted water filling an underground trench edging up again after the company finished pumping out around 660 tons of water.

According to the latest findings, a groundwater sample taken April 6 near the No. 1 reactor turbine building showed radioactive iodine-131 of 72 becquerels per cubic meter, with the concentration level growing to 400 becquerels as of Wednesday. The concentration level of cesium-134 increased from 1.4 becquerels to 53 becquerels.

snip

Meanwhile, concern grew over the state of the No. 3 reactor at one point, as the agency said in the afternoon that the temperature of part of its reactor pressure vessel was found to be rising suddenly. But TEPCO officials said the data were likely due to a glitch in a measuring instrument, because other temperature data related to the vessel has not shown a similar rise..............................."





Read more: http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/85532.html



http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=127294 (Sofia, Bulgaria News Agency)

Japan Mulls to Move Capital over Disaster Worries

"As powerful earthquakes continue to jolt Japan and radiation levels near Tokyo are rising, the Asian country's authorities are considering moving the capital to another city.

The most probable location for a new capital are Osaka and Nagoya, according to ITAR-TASS. Both cities are located near international airports.

The main conditions the new capital has to provide are a population over 50 000 and a sufficient capacity to accommodate the parliament, the government, the Emperor's residency and the foreign diplomatic missions.............."

snip




A handout picture taken and released by Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) 13 April 2011 shows a fire in the facilities takling seawater samples at Fukushima nuclear power plant in Okuma, Fukushima Prefecture. Photo by EPA/BGNES
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Note to TEPCO:
You can run but you cannot hide you evil evil bastards! :grr:

:kick:

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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. I'm waiting for Level 8 to be declared
Because this is making Chernobyl look like a party!
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Cue the apologists
..to pile into the thread and continue to say "things aren't that bad" and minimize the scope of the disaster.

If the government is considering moving the capital from Tokyo, that should be a clear sign to anyone with a brain that things aren't good.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. +1
This can't be good, no matter how you slice, dice, or spin it.
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northoftheborder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Moving the government from Tokyo is drastic. Much being hidden from the world.
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mysterysoup Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. They've been talking about moving the capital since 1990
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 10:58 PM by mysterysoup
They are always talking about moving the capital.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa101199.htm
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. They were talking about moving the capital before that
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 10:19 AM by Art_from_Ark
I wrote a thesis in the mid-80s which included that theme. :)
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. They are talking about moving the capital BECAUSE OF the radiation threat
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 10:46 AM by Matariki
Whatever past discussions about moving the capital have ZERO bearing on the current disaster.

What are you actually trying to say, that there's 'no problem'?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Is it an established fact that they are talking abt moving capital due to radiation threat?
What's the source for that claim? Bulgarian media that cites TASS? Any other original source for this story? I did a quick check going back days and didn't find it on TASS' English website. But maybe I missed it or it's not considered top world news.

Any Japan based source reporting this? Local residents, reporters, media? Not that I've seen. But maybe I've missed that too or the folks & sources I follow who live in Japan are blissfully unaware or in on a cover up.

So far this claim seems single sourced to one Bulgarian media outlet citing TASS that must have an amazing scoop that no one else appears to have.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #61
75. The source is the article!! "Earthquakes continue and RADIATION levels near Tokyo are rising" --
Japan Mulls to Move Capital over Disaster Worries

"As powerful

earthquakes continue to jolt Japan and radiation levels near Tokyo are rising,

the Asian country's authorities are considering moving the capital to another city.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. Um, radiation levels in Tokyo are back to normal
as are radiation levels here, 40 miles closer to the reactors and on a straight line between the reactors and Tokyo.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Radioactivity rises in sea off Japan nuclear plant
Edited on Sat Apr-16-11 12:19 PM by defendandprotect
And evacuations have been increased -- while Japan is still also suffering new

earthquakes and aftershocks continue -- well over 300 of them if not more.

What is "normal" on an island which is earthquake-prone with this much damage to

reactors and being compared to Chernobyl --- !!

What we do know is that Global Warming is going to increase the numbers of earthquakes,

increase their severity -- and also increase volcanic activity.

Nuclear reactors are one of the last things any sane person would combine with any of

that reality.

And same is also true here in America -- nuclear reactors to boil water?

And, they require water and pollute water -- we have one placed on Lake Erie -- a source

of drinking water!!

But let's not say that the art of salesmanship is dead as it is certainly ironic that

Japan, upon which we dropped atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and which caused so

much suffering, would choose to adopt an ALL nuclear reactor system for their energy!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110416/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japa...



----------------

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=127294 (Sofia, Bulgaria News Agency)

Japan Mulls to Move Capital over Disaster Worries

"As powerful earthquakes continue to jolt Japan and radiation levels near Tokyo are rising, the Asian country's authorities are considering moving the capital to another city.

The most probable location for a new capital are Osaka and Nagoya, according to ITAR-TASS. Both cities are located near international airports.

The main conditions the new capital has to provide are a population over 50 000 and a sufficient capacity to accommodate the parliament, the government, the Emperor's residency and the foreign diplomatic missions.............."



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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
88. OK....so now any "media source" will do, even if the actual facts don't support article.
Even if this Bulgarian article apparently is the only source in the world for this alleged story.

And the actual facts on the ground, confirmed by folks who are actually there, are otherwise at this point. Such as the documentable fact that radiation levels in Tokyo last week dropped to normal levels. Contrary to what the article claims.

And of course earthquakes continue. 9.0 megathrust earthquakes can result in 'aftershocks' for months and even years. In addition to Japan being perhaps the most seismically active country in the world; other quakes not connected to the 9.0 quake can be expected and are happening. The only way Japan could escape it's long history of active earthquake activity would be for the entire nation to relocate to some place where earthquakes rarely happen. Maybe that will be the new Bulgarian news scoop: "Japan moves to Kansas."

So if anything appears in an obscure "news source," that itself is the confirmation that it must be true? No critical analysis, fact checking required for wild claims as long as someone can cite a "news source?" So for some evidently, some Bulgarian news site is now the credible source for news around the world.

Have stds in LBN changed? I'm sure "Nunavut Today" could come up with some great scoops.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. You mean they didn't increase evacuation to 50 miles?
or are they bringing the the people back to Fukushima area?

And of course earthquakes continue. 9.0 megathrust earthquakes can result in 'aftershocks' for months and even years. In addition to Japan being perhaps the most seismically active country in the world; other quakes not connected to the 9.0 quake can be expected and are happening. The only way Japan could escape it's long history of active earthquake activity would be for the entire nation to relocate to some place where earthquakes rarely happen. Maybe that will be the new Bulgarian news scoop: "Japan moves to Kansas."

Great argument for NOT putting nuclear reactors in Japan -- !!

However ...

You're not getting it -- GLOBAL WARMING is bringing increased earthquakes -- and more severe

earthquakes -- which in turn cause new volcanic activity.

***********************************************************************************************


Wake up!


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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. As a matter of fact, Japan didn't increase evac zone to 50 mi. & you're the one not getting it:
I'm talking facts on the ground now. Not speculation of long term effects of global climate change or stuff apparently pulled out of a Bulgarian's ass.

Japan in fact has not to date designated a 50 mile evacuation zone around Fukushima nuke plant. Current evacuation zone includes the previous evac zone plus certain specified localities outside of the previous zone. In the latest evac plan, certain specified localities have been designated for evacuation within a month. But other areas, the same distance or less from Fukushima, are not included in this current plan. This new plan, they say, is based on differing radiological readings. Which is why certain communities have been specifically designated for evacuation and yet others in the area have not been. That may change.

Graphic illustration: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/04/12/world/asi...
Accompanying article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/world/asia/12japan.ht...
Just one of many available Japanese news sources, for example: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110412006569.htm

I've never argued for putting nuke plants anywhere in particular, much less in a subduction zone area prone to catastrophic earthquakes. So try another straw man.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Global Warming causing more earthquakes is not "speculation" --
as you can see in Japan --

Japan should have moved to 50 miles -- which also points to the reality of

information being withheld -- however, USA certainly immediately told their

people 50 miles.

OK -- you've been told twice -- bye --

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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved
Edited on Sun Apr-17-11 10:31 AM by Art_from_Ark
in trying to evacuate millions of people from a 50-mile radius? Especially when all the major highways were closed due to damage, all the train lines were closed, the airports were closed, the ports were damaged. On top of that, there were gasoline shortages and power outages during the worst of the crisis. Given that situation, how would you have evacuated 2-3 million people, and where would you have evacuated them to?

Also, the US 50-mile evacuation zone was voluntary, not mandatory, and there were relatively few Americans living in that area to begin with.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. You mean the logistics involved in saving human lives?
All you're saying is that what's preferable given a nuclear reactor emergency --

which is at the heart of the problem re radiation -- can't be done because of

earthquake and tsunami damage! This is an earthquake prone island -- why build

nuke reactors here in the first place -- especially after the suffering of the nation

from our A-bombs?

The earthquake and tsunami aren't something the people need to run from right now --

it is the nuclear reactors/radiation they need to run from.

This is one-third of Japan we are talking about -- !!


Meanwhile, again -- this does not relate only to Japan -- worldwide, Global Warming will

be causing increasing earthquakes -- and earthquakes of increasing intensity.


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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. You do understand that no Fukushima resident has been killed
Edited on Sun Apr-17-11 11:50 PM by Art_from_Ark
as a result of the nuclear disaster, do you? However, during the worst part of the crisis, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to evacuate millions of people, given that nearly the entire evacuation infrastructure in Fukushima Prefecture was broken. What would YOU have done during that time? If you had been in, oh, Fukushima City and heard the government panicking about radiation levels on March 15, would you have hopped in your car and tried to drive away? Where would you have gone? No electricity so no traffic lights; all major expressways, and most major non-expressway highways closed; gasoline shortages; traffic jams. Chances are, you would have run out of gasoline before you even made it out of Fukushima Prefecture. And what would have happened if you were on a bridge that had not been inspected since the quake, and it collapsed because of the weight of all the vehicles on it? How many people would have been killed or marooned because of a panicked evacuation?

And Global warming has nothing to do with earthquakes. Earthquakes are related to geology, not weather. Undersea earthquakes miles below the ocean surface, like the one that caused the tsunami, have absolutely nothing to do with global warming and everything to do subduction and geological processes that are completely independent of the weather. Land-based earthquakes also occur miles below the surface and have absolutely nothing to do with global warming.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
67. "A committee of the National Land Agency worked to select three final regions for the capital"
and settled on three regions located on the main island of Honshu:


Tokai - a region around Nagoya, west of Tokyo
Hokuto - in northeast Japan, near Sendai
Mie-kio - northwest of Tokyo

So much for that brilliant plan! :nuke:
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
54. It's the same as putting a luminous watch on a banana.
:evilgrin:
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
55. I am not an apologist, but I am in Japan
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 10:09 AM by Art_from_Ark
I am a very long-time resident of Japan. And no, things aren't as bleak as they are painted in the news media. They are bad in Fukushima and coastal Miyagi, Iwate, and to a lesser extent Ibaraki and parts of Chiba, but nowhere near as bleak as the US news media likes to paint them to be in the rest of the country.

And they have been talking about moving the capital for at least 30 years. Hell, they were talking of moving it to Nasu, in the shadow of an active volcano, for crying out loud. But there is just too much infrastructure in Tokyo for that to really be feasible.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #55
86. Do you understand that earthquakes will be increasing in number and severity?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Actually, unsurprisingly, that's not the case. Over time aftershocks from a major quake
decrease in both frequency and magnitude. With 9.0 megathrust quakes it takes a very long time for that to happen, in human as opposed to geologic time. And there's still the possibility of at least around a magnitude 8 aftershock, but so far that has yet to happen.

There have been, so far, perhaps only a couple in the 7+ range in the weeks after the initial quake, IIRC. A 6.6 (USGS) on the 11th seems to have had generated its own aftershocks, but again decreasing in magnitude.

See for yourself. It's not like no one keeps records of this stuff.

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/qed /
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. No -- Global Warming is bringing increased earthquakes and increasing severity of them ...
in turn earthquakes also generate volcanic activity --

-- and yes, aftershocks are also increasing -- Japan has suffered more than 300

after this earthquake -- possibly more.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. Of course the culmulative total of aftershock earthquakes increases over time!
The culmulative total of aftershocks of a 9.0 earthquake after a month is of course going to be a higher number than the culmulative total two weeks after the event. That's simple math, as aftershocks continue precisely as they are expected to. The culmulative total after another month also will be greater than the total up until today.

Culmulative total is not the same as frequency, the rate at which they occur. To show an increase in frequency you would have to show an increase in the actual rate of aftershocks occuring in the area within that period of time.

For example, since large aftershocks such as the 6.6 earlier this week can generate their own aftershocks, there was a demonstrable jump in frequency as a result. And no doubt the cycle will repeat, a decrease in magnitude and frequency until there's another significantly large aftershock and so on. That's to be expected, based on observations of large quakes and the aftermath over years.

But you apparently aren't really interested in what's specifically actually happening in Japan since you blithely disregard documented facts about this event, especially when they don't happen to support your views, beliefs, or your misunderstanding of scientific studies.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. As they say, "You can't wake up a man pretending to be asleep" --
there have been aftershocks at the rate of more than 300 -- in fact hard to know

if the quake a week ago was a new quake or an aftershock -- it was reported as both.

The 300 and more aftershocks have also remained very high 4 and over -- way over.

Once more . . .

Global Warming is bringing increasing chaotic weather conditions -- increasing numbers

and intensity of hurricanes, cyclones, tornadoes, twisters -- AND EARTHQUAKES.

Earthquakes also generate volcanic activity.

Bye --








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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
80. "Anyone with a brain". LOL
If you believe this story, you don't even have that much in your head.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. No, you don't understand
Edited on Sat Apr-16-11 07:46 AM by Art_from_Ark
This Bulgarian news agency, which no one had even heard about before, has suddenly become an unquestionable authority on the situation in Tokyo! According to them, the government is going to abandon Tokyo because of rising radiation levels that have returned to normal, and the Emperor, whose father stayed in Tokyo while it was being firebombed in WWII, will turn tail and flee to some as yet unknown new capital that hasn't been built yet and hide in a radiation-proof room while Tokyo glows in the dark because of super radiated groundwater that has somehow managed to defy the laws of geology and physics and travel a couple hundred miles to contaminate Tokyo's water supply! :crazy:
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. The stupid is strong in this OP. nt
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. When I saw the credulity in this thread I wanted to use that quote from "Aliens"....
"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" ;)
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
87. They're headed this way you can bet on it
Hasn't failed yet
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. a population over 50 000 ?
About 10,000,000 live in Tokyo.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. They want to move the gov't peeps, the commoners on their own.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. move the official seat of government, not the entire metro area, which is 36 million, not 10 million
:hi:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Yah. Because they'd stay after the gov't evacuates.
Suuuurrre they would.

So I'm guessing the gov't people would like to run and know they can't.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. think back to WWI, the French government evacuated from Paris to Bordeaux, but most of Paris stayed
:hi:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Really? What did their geiger counters say?
Were they worried about genetic damage to their children then?
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #35
51. More likely physical damage to their children.
Bullets and death camps will do that.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
56. The geiger counters in Tokyo say NEARLY NORMAL LEVELS
Really, you aren't going to glow in the dark in Tokyo.
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ChibaResident Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #56
102. I have seen the same, Art.
And nobody in Tokyo or the immediate region are freaking out.

This whole thing seems like people trying to panic people (or scare people, or whatever).

Is there any news on a LEGITIMATE source about Tokyo government plans for re-location?

If so, PLEASE SHARE! Some of us would like to know if that is really true (some of us who live here, and have family here!).

Otherwise, well...
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #21
53. As a matter of fact, the people in Tokyo will stay.
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 06:50 AM by JackRiddler
Where do you think they'll go?

Japan, the society and culture, is thousands of years old, and conscious of itself as such. It has evolved on an island, its own world, at times literally closed to the rest of the world. They will bear the unbearable, because there is no choice. They will find ways to deal. They will not be better off because of the disaster, but they may become a more just society. After this disaster, they will need to take a thousand-year perspective on the concept of recovery, and perhaps, therefore, become the first society ever to have a truly long-term and realistic perspective on human society and its sustainability.
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. After the last earthquake a few days ago, TEPCO very quickly said that the quake did not further
damage the plants, even though they still say they don't know exactly what's going on inside the containment buildings. Contradictory? Then a fire broke out. How do you know when the TEPCO pr people are lying? ...
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. When their lips are moving n/t
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. They aren't going to move the capital.
For the last 50 years, the Japanese government has periodically trotted out the idea of moving the capital to solve various problems caused by the excessive concentration of economic functions in Tokyo. Committees are formed, studies are presented, and then the idea is put back on the shelf until they need to dust it off again to make it look like they're doing something. There's no reason to believe this time will be any different.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Well, yes there is.
They are getting afraid to live in Tokyo. This has NOTHING to do with "concentration of economic functions." This is about saving viability of ANY economic function.

Or aren't you aware of what is actually happening at Fukushima?
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I am aware of that.
That's all the more reason I believe this proposal will go nowhere. Do you really think they want to undertake such a huge and expensive project at the same time they have to deal with a massive disaster recovery effort plus the Fukushima crisis?

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. They Need To Make Those Plans Now of Course
When the lava hits the groundwater would be a bit too late.

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. I think it will go nowhere because it would trigger the mass evacuation of Tokyo.
And you are so right, they don't wanna do that.
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. No, I think they are considering this BECAUSE people will evacuate Tokyo on their own.
It's hard to have functioning government in a city where few people are willing to live (die.)
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
58. Just like moving the capital to Brasilia
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 10:38 AM by Art_from_Ark
triggered a mass migration from Rio de Janeiro?

Really, you don't seem to have any idea of why people live in Tokyo. They know they are living in a geologically dangerous area. Barring an actual catastrophe, they aren't going to mass excavate out, and the national government isn't going to pull up stakes and move to Bummfuque.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. They Didn't Have a Nuclear Reactor (or 6) Melting Down Before
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:29 PM
Original message
Dupe. nt
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:29 PM by nc4bo
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. where is it duped? I posted it >3 hours ago,within 45 minutes of Kyodo's(notice the April 15th date)
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. I accidently double posted - nothing you did. See my post above. nt
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. ahhhh, so sorry too, I should have follow the convo, cheers!
:fistbump:
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm confused. Just exactly is TEPCO's definition of groundwater?
I always thought ground water was UNDER the surface of the earth not in pools surrounding the reactors (above ground).

No snark - just confused as hell.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Wikipedia is your friend
They have a good article on groundwater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwater

Note especially the picture captioned "relative groundwater travel times". Since this plant is close to the ocean, there could be quite a few marshes and wetlands in the area, which are also in the broad definition of "groundwater". Expect that when they get a good soaking rain in the area for the contamination now relatively contained to get spread around a whole lot more. So much for the "containment" structures.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. After mulling over thoughts, I did just that.
This is going to be so bad and they knew it, Level 7 yea ok.

Jeebus!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. If ground water is contaminated to the pioint they need to move Tokyi
1\3 of the country has become uninhabitable.

Somehow I doubt anybody will admit to that... and yes it will make this far worst than Chernobyl.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I was shamed for hyperbole in an earlier thread when dared to mention the word 'uninhabitable'.
The minders will be here soon. :hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. LOL
It just keeps getting better and better.

Of course you were right. The Exclusion zone in the Ukraine will be for the next 600 years or so... so will the exclusion zone at Fukushima. Facts are pesky I know.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Seriously,
:rofl:

This place has gone insane the last couple of years. I was stunned when I saw the vitriol spewed at you. :hug:

I remembered why I stopped ever replying much here in GD; much less doing an OP - it turned damn mean here. :evilfrown:

Thanks for all you do. It matters to many. :hug: :hi:
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. It may be that the foreign diplomats are already leaving or gone....
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
52. Radiation in Tokyo returns to pre-disaster level - Mainichi Daily News, April 14
Excerpt: TOKYO (Kyodo) -- The maximum radiation level in Tokyo in the 16 hours through 9 a.m. Wednesday fell to the normal range seen before the occurrence of the nuclear disaster at the Fukushima Daiichi plant on March 11, the science ministry said.

Full article: http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110414p2g00m0dm03...

What's the actual sourcing for the Bulgarian media report?


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Nitram Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. doubtful accuracy
I would take the news from Bulgaria that Japan is considering moving the capital with more than a grain of salt. It is highly unlikely the Japanese government would discuss such an option before the nuclear crisis has been brought under control. Panic is something the government wants to prevent above all.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. THANK YOU.
Very sensible answer. I panic immediately and calm down afterwards.

But the anger in Tokyo is growing. 14 million people are getting scared. And they should be.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. ITAR-TASS, the chief news agency of Russia, is the sourcing origin for the Sofia news bureau
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Which means.......?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. Can't find this alleged story on TASS' English website. One would think this is big news.
At this point I'm wondering if TASS actually reported this. At the moment I can't find another original source for this story except this Bularian site.

Perhaps you can find the original alleged TASS report on their website? Perhaps I just missed it.

Odd no one else reporting this, including Japanese residents, reporters, media, etc. One would think a story this big must have some original reports and origins other than one Bulgarian news site or allegedly TASS.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT ABANDONING TOKYO.
Moving the capital? Are they kidding? Tokyo is now too toxic for the GOVERNMENT? What about the 14 MILLION????

I can't even imagine the logistics. If the government goes, who would be crazy enough to stay? Only the people who can't find anywhere to go.

First new law: strict enforcement against gouging in housing.

WTF aren't they talking about moving the pregnant women and children instead of the middle-aged men?
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. They're not talking about abandoning Tokyo, just moving the seat of the government. nt.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Right. Because no one would be likely to follow their example.
Sure.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. I don't disagree. But it's hyperbole to say "they're abandoning Tokyo". nt.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
49. Allegedly per TASS & Bulgarian media, but strangely, this is not in Japan's media or
Edited on Fri Apr-15-11 05:29 AM by Garbo 2004
reported by people & reporters actually in Japan. Must be really top secret if only TASS & Bulgarian media have this scoop.

I've been following Japanese media, Japanese citizens & reporters in Japan, and they haven't mentioned this. Only TASS, with a dubious record of sometimes coming up with interesting but unfounded stories, has this info?

According to recent local reports, radiation levels in Tokyo have fallen & are back around normal levels, pre-earthquake/Fukushima.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. Hello Garbo
It's kind of irritating to hear all sorts of rumors about where one lives from people who have no idea what they're talking about.

茨城県から今晩は :hi:
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Howdy! I'd imagine the constant quakes are nerve wracking. Plus natural fears abt what's going on &
wild reports don't help. I recall reading complaints from ordinary folks in Japan---not just the gov't---about some foreign press going wild with bizarre stories that appear completely fabricated. Bulgarian media was cited as one. But I can't find what I read right now to provide a link.

What happened to checking & cross checking sources here? Especially in LBN where news sources cited are supposed to be somewhat credible? And a story like this, if legit, would have more than just one outlet or original source reporting it. All I've seen on the net so far is this Bulgaian article cited and not by credible news sources or organizations. Couldn't find the alleged original report on TASS, but then maybe I missed it. Or maybe TASS really wasn't the source.


:hi:
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
72. Reading some of these wild discussions
is like listening to the two "ladies" in that Monty Python skit discussing the penguin on top of their television.

I have a feeling that people want to post a "scoop", any "scoop", even if it's from Fooledyou News Service. And everyone else just assumes it's a legitimate story if it confirms their fears.

The earthquakes are pretty nerve-wracking-- there was yet another one just a few minutes ago.
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Chris_Texas Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. No.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wonder if all the bulldozed radioactive material might be contributing to
the rise in groundwater radiation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Also, why is there a fire in an area where they are measuring radiation from seawater?
That seems odd.
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. yes what is the deal with these fires
You are on to something there. What exactly I do not know. It reeks of a cover-up to me. :wtf: is the reality?

:dem:

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I don't know what to make of that fire
Just seems an odd place to have a fire.

What involved in measuring radiation in water would be prone to catching fire?


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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
50. Battery fire that happened earlier this week. Another pic from area afterwards here:
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. Thanks. That helps to explain it
Would the batteries have overheated somehow?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. I dunno. Were they connected to something? Shorted? Chemicals? Seems just one big
clusterfuck after another at that plant. I've seen the battery fire mentioned in Japanese media but not actually explained, like what caused it.

I don't mean any disparagement toward the workers trying their best with problems on so many fronts at that plant. But it's a "perfect storm" of calamity there, both natural & manmade.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. True that
It seems if something could go wrong, it has.
And as though, once their attention turns in one direction, things go haywire in the other areas.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
76. Nothing odd about it
The fire came from a battery that may have been overloaded.
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
40. The second story is BS. Makes no sense. nt
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. More lies from anti-nuke hippie communist environmentalist wackos.
Nukes are safe, and taste like chicken.

These hippies have been spreading lies like this for years.

Chernobyl? Ain't no such place.

Three Mile Island? Somewhere off the coast of Antarctica.

Have faith and trust in our nuclear industry scientists. Nukes are harmless.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
100. Sanity is a threat to the nuclear power industry -- !!!
:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
45. k
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WheelWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. Excuse me... I have to use the Vomitorium again.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Vomitoriums are a myth, based on faulty Latin translation(they're exits in theatres,not vomit areas)
:eyes:
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. Speaking of that
check this out. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2421/were-ther...

Rather interesting article on the Romans and puke.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
66. I see a lot of confusion over the second story.
Maybe it has more to do with getting to a more tectonically stable environment? More so then (and perhaps only at this point) the radiation? 30 million people live in Tokyo and if people are worried about 'the big one' hitting after a 9...I might look for higher ground to run the govt from too. We are talking about self preservation here and people can scoff...but no one can stop an earthquake from destroying Tokyo and the govt would be destroyed right along with it too.

Just my 2cents.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Maybe the second story is a completely bogus fabrication, without foundation.
Have you seen any other original sourcing for the alleged claim, other than this Bulgarian website?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. It could be that too.
Time will tell.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. This is clearly what SOME people WANT to believe.
It says a lot about them. That's all I can say.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. Looks like some folks will actually be disappointed if Japan doesn't become some vast
uninhabitable wasteland. :(
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
68. Now this REALLY seems like science fiction
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
74. k
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
78. ALIENS LAND IN OKLAHOMA would be equally believable.
If any of you believe this "News" story from Bulgaria, you are beyond help.

It is the biggest piece of bullshit I have EVER seen on DU and I have been here 10 years.
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redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. Hey The Bulgarians have never lied to me before!
The Bulgarians have an inside track ya know.

:-)
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
94. Why not move Japan's Capital to Detroit?
Detroit has blocks and blocks of vacant & dilapidated housing just
sitting and rotting away. And there are no earthquakes in Detroit.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
96. This is a really bad post...first, only one article should be posted in the title
the way you've posted (and now i understand why we have rules against this) you make it appear that a news article says that groundwater contamination is occurring and that's why they may have to move the capital from Tokyo.

this is really manipulative. i don't like it. LBN is supposed to have some safeguards to objectivity.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #96
101. +100
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