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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:16 PM
Original message
"Criticizing" the President on DU has become pointless.
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:20 PM by Zorra
It has no effect, other than to piss off the conservaDems on this board. No matter what we say or what facts/evidence/logical arguments we present, it is highly unlikely that we will change the POV of a conservaDem about Obama. Not only is their an ideolgical similarity between Obama and conservaDems, but there is often an element of true believer "hero worship" as well.

This has become obvious, to me, at least.

The President doesn't not seem to be acting on what we want, and the conservaDems don't apparently want most of the the same things that are important to us, or they would be questioning the Presidents' actions also.

If we want someone to fight for Universal Single Payer Healtcare, higher taxes on the wealthy, the end of military operations overseas, reforming/nullifying the Patriot Act, to always side with labor over multi-national corporations, to regulate big business into submission to the will of the People, to end lobbying of government officals, to challenge the SCOTUS ruling on campaign finance, to fight to make our electoral system/voting process accurate, just, and transparent, to put the hammer down on republicans instead of capitulating to them in the name of bipartisanship...

Obama is simply not our guy. As Rep. Weiner said, "he's just not a values guy".

Someone like this, Brian Schweitzer, Dem Governor of Montana, with these values, this attitude, this ideology, is one of ours:


Obama is not going to change no matter what we say or do. Complaining and pissing off conservadems is useless. I'm not saying STFU here. Only that it is a waste of our time (except to vent, which is understandable).

We're hostages. We either vote for Obama, and retain some hope of eventually someday breaking out of this prison, or we get a fascist (republican), who will put us hopelessly in chains in the darkest recesses of the fascist dungeon. It's sad, it frustrates me, but it's a total no brainer.

Donald. Fucking. Trump. No way, no how, not ever. Over my dead body.

In the meantime, let's use our captivity constructively to figure out and support the person who will lead us after Obama's 2nd term, and other progressive leaders that we need to support us as well. (And Obama must get a 2nd term because the only real alternative is a fascist hell on earth).

Peace
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nevermind
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Criticism that is basically accurate can be very constructive in
a variety of ways. I disagree that posts critical to Obama are always a waste of time.
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. The other night I saw Joan Walsh on the Ed Show
and she said the only way for the progressive Democrats to get the ear of Obama is to get into the streets like the teabaggers did. What has been going on in Wisconsin is an example of the activation we will need to take back the debate.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I can totally get with doing that. nt
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Yeah except the Baggers get 200 people on the mall and
it's headline news. Half a million Dems show up in Madison and it's not even a blip on the radar.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. The point of criticizing Obama is to avoid criticism of his policies
I see this here constantly

It's a distraction
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. 80%+ of "liberals" approve of Obama
There are republicans and fringe leftists like some on DU that disapprove. That's life.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Scott Walker just claimed his policies are progressive.
A nasty little bunch of fascists in Germany called themselves "national socialists".

The self-definition of a word/term is the POV of the person defining themselves.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. You may have a point, but there is a corollary
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:25 PM by frazzled
It's just as useless for people who support a particular act/speech/strategy of the President to argue that to those who are hellbent on finding fault with him. It works both ways. And that is situation normal for the Internet, isn't it.

Note: your unthoughtful use of the word "conservadem" is ample proof of why you can't convince people of your point of view: it's false, disrespectful, and combative. Just because someone has said something in support of the president doesn't mean they are any less liberal or "real" a Democrat than you fancy yourself to be. There can be no discussion when you are insulting people.
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. +1 n/t
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. So, we poor people "aren't one of yours", either? Is there some particular reason
why it seems impossible to leave us off of all the "priority" lists? Could you please tell me what that reason is?

Maybe you agree with Dennis Miller?
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. I think the OP is crap, but I can't see how it excludes 'poor people.'
I think you are taking offense, needlessly.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. So, then, could you please show me where poverty is included in that list?
Can you truthfully say that you don't notice poverty NOT being listed most of the time on these DU lists?

We are suffering and dying, yet shame on us for bringing your attention to what, to many, is OBVIOUS.

Kill the messenger... that is good "politics".
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. So, what are your priorities? What is very important to you,
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:46 PM by Zorra
things that you'd like to see the President do ASAP?

I can't really respond to your question unless I have some relatively specific idea of what your ideology is.

I do not understand why you might think I agree with Dennis Miller.

I am about as far from the "right" as Goehring was from the "left". Something that I would think would be pretty obvious to anyone.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. Whatever we think of Obama
I agree that it would be politically wise to start thinking about 2016. Schweitzer is someone I plan to give some thought to. I wrote an OP on this theme last week:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

We have time to strongly influence the futuer of the Democratic Party if we pull together early on this.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. IBTPAG (in before the popcorn's all gone). nt
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Duzy! I'm totally stealing IBTPAG. n/t
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Pronunciation is key. It's "ihbt-PAG." Soft "t." nt
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Duly noted. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. The President gives a great speech heralding liberal values and
you post this whiny condescending crap.

Everyone doesn't have to agree with you. If you want to take your ball and go home because DU isn't a 100 percent anti-Obama site, do it without announcement.

Anthony Weiner liked the President's speech

Keep this in mind about Medicare: Obamacare reduced costs and extended the life of the program.

A long overdue explanation of why government exists. Why Americans are Progressives.

We are a great nation. This is a speech and a fight that honors our ideals. Lets embrace this fight.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The OP isn't "whiny"
Good grief
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Um
yes it is

It has no effect, other than to piss off the conservaDems on this board. No matter what we say or what facts/evidence/logical arguments we present, it is highly unlikely that we will change the POV of a conservaDem about Obama. Not only is their an ideolgical similarity between Obama and conservaDems, but there is often an element of true believer "hero worship" as well.


You forgot "condescending."

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. How is that "whiny?"
OP is stating an opinion based on his/her observations at DU

:shrug:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. First of all,
isn't it against the rules to call out DUers?

Secondly, you don't thing complaining about other people's opinion is whiny?

What the point: to change other people's opinion by complaining that they don't agree with you?

"I'm sick of this place because some people don't agree with me!!!"

Whiny!

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yes it's against the rules to call out DUers...as you're doing in this thread
You called the OP "whiny and condescending" and, yes, I believe that's frowned upon
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Well, as long as it's OK in the OP,
which you don't seem to have a problem with.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The OP refers to "conservadems" in general, not you personally n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. So?
It's still a call out, and it appears that "conservadems" means anyone who still supports the President:

"is highly unlikely that we will change the POV of a conservaDem about Obama."

"Obama is simply not our guy."

What a crock!

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Then alert on the thread
There are tools here for managing your dissatisfaction
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Did you alert on the thread?
Do you think the OP is a call out?

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Specifically "conservadems" on DU... not in general... eom
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Responding to a DUer's OP is not calling out a DUer...
Calling someone's OP whiny and condescending is a far cry from calling a DUer names... try again...
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. Oh good grief it is too...
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. The words of a politician are little more than smoke unless they are backed up
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:33 PM by Zorra
by at the very least sincere attempted action.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. lol. Case in point.
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. So Obama gave a great speech?
Big fucking deal. The real test is whether or not he actually follows through on the stuff he shovels in those speeches. His record on that is a little spotty.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. Right,
"The real test is whether or not he actually follows through on the stuff he shovels in those speeches. His record on that is a little spotty."

It's clear that the President has spent the last two years picking his nose. His accomplishments don't exists, only the stuff he hasn't done yet.




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StarburstClock Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. A conservative propagandist is the #1 rec'd post too
There is an awakening going on worldwide but you'd never know it reading a lot of the propaganda here.
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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
24. I pretty much avoid the Obama criticizing posts.
I'm just over the discussion about his chess playing abilities.

I know there are people who are paid to criticize so I pretty much ignore the posts discussing what Obama did wrong. Its not that I don't wish he had done some things differently, its just that I'm not going to discuss it here with people whose intentions are questionable.

I do love posts that criticize republiCons. :-)
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. Schweitzer?
Are you thinking of Albert? Because I thought that Montana guy was a conservadem like you'd expect a Montana guy to be.

I sorta wish we could let go of the whole Obama thing. Instead of talking about people, it would be nice if we could advance the progressive vision.

"Conservatives have pushed very hard in the last thirty years to advance that atomized vision. Nor is it obvious that their vision aint basically right. But as conservatives have pushed and clawed to advance that vision, we liberals have slumbered, snoozed, snored and failed. When have you seen major liberal intellectual leaders approaching the American people with the vision that we actually are a people? (When have you seen major liberal intellectual leaders approach the people at all?) Dont we spend a great deal more time telling various parts of the public that theyre racist, stupid, very bad people? Doesnt this undermine the notion that were a community? That were all in the same big national tribe? That were all part of each other?"


Facts and principles are good things to espouse, moreso than arguing about one guy, even if he is the President.

There does seem to be a huge divide of trust though, that there are some people who just do not trust Obama, and thus will find fault with anything he says or does, whereas the other side will praise his words and find excuses for any betrayal he commits.

But there are also more than two sides.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. "conservadem" " true believer" "hero worship"... like a greatest hits reel innit?
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:45 PM by dionysus
unrec

:rofl:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. Yes, unfortunately, it is. nt
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
34. K&R This is well put
Conservative
democrats and the Obama super-loyal defenders aren't going to see any daylight or truth, so whats the point in trying to argue with them. Good OP.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
36. So if I support Obama I'm a conservadem
Thanks for the stereotyping

:grr:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
51. Dunno. If Obama ends up allowing cuts to Social Security, do you think
you will continue to support him?

If the answer is yes, than I would say that you are, probably, either at least a "hero worshipper" or a "true believer".
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. schweitzer / weiner 2016
:patriot:
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
42. Do you like red or white?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
43. I think the President should be criticized when he does something wrong...
or you think is wrong. Also, I think the President should be praised if he does something right or we perceive as right.

However, I do not think we should operate on the premise that the President lied to us or we did not agree with one policy or other and therefore he cannot be trusted on anything at anytime. Soon, you will be left with no one that you agree with - not even yourself.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
44. What's wrong with pissing off conservadems on a message board? (n/t)
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:52 PM by Iggo
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
50. Broadbrushing other DUers as "conservaDems" who don't agree with you
Is no way to open a dialog. I actually believe you've some good points for discussion on your OP. However, I can't get past the unnecessary nastiness. Frankly, I'm beyond tired of the childish "you're either with me or you're against me" mentality permeating every discussions here whenever President Obama is the topic. In real life there are a lot of Democrats who support certain aspects of Obama's Presidency and don't support others. Amazingly we're even able to have intelligent conversations about our likes and dislikes without resorting to childish name calling. Here that never happens. One side or the other always manages to derail the conversation, or to detract from a valid point, by being nasty or calling names.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading up to b@l's post above before the popcorn is all gone.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
52. Locking
Stating that the supporters of BHO are "conservadems" is considered a group attack, and is not conducive in promoting civil discussion.

Thanks,
Broken_Hero
DU Moderator
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