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7 Dutch dead in mall murder. Guess what the Dutch NRA does?

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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:33 AM
Original message
7 Dutch dead in mall murder. Guess what the Dutch NRA does?
Cross-posted from "Guns" at the behest of another DU-er
-----------------------------------------------------------

Last Saturday, 7 Dutch were mass-murdered in Alphen aan den Rijn. The shooter was a young male using a semi-automatic weapon and a handgun.

Well, I suppose we all know that men between 20 and 30 are most prone to engage in violence during a recession - it's something about losing all faith in society and politics.

The mayor, the prime-minister, the queen, they all grieve with the families of those who died just four days ago. No-one has been calling for any alteration of the gun laws, because all reserve judgement.

Until today. Guess what the KNSA (The Dutch counterpart of the NRA) just announced?

They have a plan to attract more young members - recruiting children as young as twelve AT SCHOOL by giving them a free shooting lesson. Because the membership numbers are dropping, you see? They need to attract more young members. Otherwise they would go out of existence in a generation.

The mall mass-murder in Alphen was "no reason to change their plans". Nor to announce them at a later time.

The word revolting comes to mind.

Dutch school principals have the authority to shove the door in anyone's face, at any time. It is my sincere hope that all principals will do the right thing, and tell the KNSA to go to H***.
Rampant Calvinist
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. I bet they have strict gun control laws there too -- oops, guess they don't work in real life.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Very strict ones
The reason this creep could have five gun permits (and three guns) was that his juvenile illegal weapon possession case was dismissed over a techicality eight years ago. Otherwise he would have been monitored for a decade and banned from gun ownership for the rest of his miserable life.
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rbixby Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. But what's the rate of firearms related crimes there
vs here?
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Compared with... whom?
The United States of Guns Guns Guns for in Guns we Trust? Tell you what, take all the gun related spree shootings and rime related shootings in all of Western Europe in one year and compare to that of the USA. Which do you think is higher?

Then on the other hand, compare all the gun violence in a country where there is no busy body government policies to mess with my beloved guns... say like Afghanistan, an NRA's wet dream.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. The gun slaughter in the US and Europe are not remotely comparable.
Europe has a tiny fraction of the gun deaths that we have here.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. uh, how do we know this had anything to do with the recession?
"Well, I suppose we all know that men between 20 and 30 are most prone to engage in violence during a recession - it's something about losing all faith in society and politics."
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. There are some nice historians who did that
Statistically, there is a convergence between prejudice/ violence and economic volatility/ income disparity.

And according to sociology, it's (a greater number of) men in their twenties who are quickest to lose all faith in society, because of the way their support systems are constructed.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. in other words you don't know.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I take exception to that remark. n/t
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. According to Dutch media reports, the shooter was hearing "voices" and seeing "ghosts"...
He had to take medicine to get his "visions" under control, but stopped taking them. He had a long past of psychiatric illness and was suicidal from puberty on. As far as I know from Dutch media, the recession has nothing to do with it.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Shooting lessons at school - that's fantastic. We used to have that here in the States
until the hand wringing fear mongers got their way.
Now things suck - but students aren't any safer.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Some of the victims have not yet been buried
Fear mongering? How about some basic decency?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. How am I furthering my agenda?
I condemn the timing of the announcement, because all others still reserve judgement.

Your accusation, that I would be using GOP playbooks, is as close to Godwin's law as you can get on DU, Edweird.

But since the announcement has been made, should I just shut up and let it happen? I don't think so. Of course this calousness deserves condemnation.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. "further your own agenda" = "express an opinion I dislike".
Yawn.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Not at all. It's the hipocrisy.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R, but...
I have to admit, it's not an absolutely terrible idea to responsibly introduce young people to firearms. I'm not necessarily suggesting they shoot the weapons... just that they are aware of safety issues, how they're used, what to do if someone whips one out, etc. Now, whether the NRA should be doing this is a completely different story. I am not a gun owner, nor do i want to be one. But my neighbors in this rural community are good people who hunt responsibly.

:shrug:

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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
8. there is no doubt as to the origin of their tactics
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. Is there a link or anything?
I would like to see the entire story in context...
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Here's one, but it's in Dutch
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nederland/article/detail...

problem with some foreign news is: it's in a foreign language as well.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. Holy Crap! You do realize that these shooting lessons are not happening for several months?
A quote from the translated page...

"The recruitment drive will start this fall and is aimed at students from the upper years of HAVO / VWO secondary vocational and technical training."
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. They shouldn't happen at all
and more importantly: the announcement was certainly made at a time that displays the callousness of the KNSA: only a few of the victims have been released from hospital as yet, and some of the dead have not even been interred.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Right
Should I throw away my HS ribbons from the rifle team? Promoting death and all...
How about my track team trophies?

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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. And this makes the plan any less idiotic... how?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. What's wrong with learning to shoot?
If you learn proper gun safety and firearms discipline when young you carry that careful and rational attitude to guns with you throughout your life. Personally I think improved attitudes toward firearms would probably do more to prevent tragedy than any amount of demonization.
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. How about we teach children
to solve problems by using words? A wrong word can do a lot of damage, but not as much as a bullet.

Most Dutch children still have this attitude to guns: I don't want to deal with them. Which, as an attitude, is very laudable - as it leads in no way whatsoever to using one, responsably or otherwise. No improvement necessary, I'd say.

The KNSA is on a recruitment drive, and since they can't find members among the 18 - 28 years old, they try to engage the interest of younger, more impressionable persons. Which announcement, five days after a mass-muder, is beyond the pale.

Could I also remark that the freedom to use a gun is more defendable in vast rural areas with sparse populations (chance of a trained police officer turning up within minutes is minute). The densely populated Netherlands are quite a different matter: even the most remote villages can have an ambulance, police car, or fire truck turn up on their doorstep within 22 minutes.

If I call the cops (I live just 6 miles from Alphen aan den Rijn), they are with me within a minute: less than 60 seconds.

Preventing tragedy in densely populated areas can't rely on everybody playing by the rules. Because some people just don't. And the chance that one of those runs into you is just too big in a densely populated area (like, say, a city with 117,000 inhabitants). That is why tragedy prevention in a dense population is about limiting the number of firearms in circulation. The less there are, the less you have to deal with. The best way to do that: make sure people don't want a gun in the first place.

And the prevention of gun demand doesn't require actual "demonization", as you call it.

It only requires the discouragement of recruitment drives.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Please explain how safety and skill training is the same as advocating violence?
Learning to shoot well and safely in a controlled environment has nothing to do with your implied link to violence.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. It's unnecessary, it's dangerous, it's unnecessary, it involves a lot of risks...
.. it's unnecessary, it sends the wrong message (guns/violence is good) and... have I already mentioned it's unnecessary?

God, a lot of gun nuts on a progressive site!
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. Their timing sucks but gun safety is a good thing. Are "students from upper years" truly only 12?
Link says ""The recruitment drive will start this fall and is aimed at students from the upper years of HAVO / VWO secondary vocational and technical training.""
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I'll admit that most will be between 14 and 18
but especially in VWO schools, precocious students can be one or two years younger.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. So what?
Firearms safety training, as any other safety training, should start as soon as the child can grasp the concepts involved.

I knew how to run a chain saw at the age of 10 (couldn't hold it very long until I was 12), had several pocket knives before I was 6, drove tractors from age 11, shot guns under adult supervision from about 7 or 8, did rock climbing (way riskier than guns) since before memory is reliable. Cooked on a wood stove (without adult supervision) before 10.... etc, etc.

What's special about guns?
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. They are very deadly
and as they allow to kill at great distance, they indulge emotional detachment from the victim.

Firearms safety training is only necessary when the child has an active interest in firearms in the first place. If the child's attitude is "no thanks", that would be the safest way to handle the weapons (not using them at all).

Trying to engage the interest of impressionable children, CREATING interest, is NOT conductive to the safest handling of firearms.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. "They are very deadly"
And so are a great many other objects, as I noted.

You ascribe a power (detachment) to the object that is only inherent to the person.

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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. A knife doesn't allow for detachment. n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Ah, you are telepathic now?
Really?
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. O come on!
killing from 100 feet =/= killing from 1 feet.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Indeed. Creating interest is directly opposite of gun safety.
I thought people on a so-called progressive site would understand.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. They've been planning it for about three years according to a more trustworthy source than the OP
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Putting guns in the hands of children = 'gun safety'?
I'm sorry, but I don't want my country to be subjected to the cult and worship of 'the gun', like the US.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
40. I view the NRA going to places after a mass murder the same
as that Phelps guy when he pickets innocent peoples funerals. Stupid can be cured. Evil just is.
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