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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:20 PM
Original message
Areas of Cartel Influences in Mexico - A map
Just discussed on MSNBC



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is a lovely map
and why some of us have said that it is moving north as well.

The good folks at MSNBC will not tell you that the Arellano have some control of places north like Chula Vista, San Ysidro and LA though the gangs.

As to the Zeta... well they work closely with MS-13 and otehr gangs all the way to Iowa...

So when McCafrey says, but... he is not telling us the rest of the story.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. They have been in the US for a decade
They are now just getting noticed. Having said that, the systematic violence is concentrated in Mexico.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Well we have had already a few shootouts
that are close to what I saw as a medic oh back in the day in Tijuana, when this started. So I would not say this cannot move north. It already is.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. They will never move into the US
You are furthering a RW talking point that los zetas are invading the US. It was debunked a while back by Rachel Maddow, amongst others.
Texas border city safest in US despite drug war next door.

Border cities among safest in U.S., FBI report says
"The top four big U.S. cities with the lowest rates of violent crime are all in border states: San Diego, Phoenix and El Paso and Austin, Texas, according to a new FBI report. And an in-house Customs and Border Protection report shows that Border Patrol agents face far less danger than street cops in most U.S. cities."
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Nah I am furthering a personal experience taking point
because shit I don't live in the area and never worked in EMS in Tijuana...

:sarcasm:

The invasion the RW dreams about is not exactly what is happening... but you keep thinking that they will never expand... expect they have.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. They are expanding to the south
It is stories like this that further the rumors you speak of.

The zetas do not operate out of Tijuana, though they are allies with the Tijuana cartel due to having common enemies (Sinaloa and Gulf cartels).

As I have stated previously, gangs like Los Zetas derive their power from impunity. They will never have impunity here.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Did I ever say the Zetas operated out of TJ? NO
but I know the Arellano Cartel HAS GONE NORTH.

Look you can show me all the links you want, but they ARE.

Here is something for you... which Iam sure you are not thinking about.

If you are a criminal organization and you work in way A in your place and want to expand... to ANOTHER COUNTRY... will you do what they expect, or work within the established ways that are done in that other country? We've been here before. The Cosa Nostra worked in a very different way in Sicily than it did in New York. That is a fact jack, and it is happening again.

You can think all you want... and believe what you want. But I got it from pretty good authority (ie local cops) that yes it is moving north... and that yes viriginia they have had a few shootouts with the usual suspects.

I will personally take their word every day of the week.

Oh and you have NO IDEA why TJ was a no go zone for the Navy, for example, for the latter part of the 80s and the early 90s either. I do... and it never appeared in the papers either.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Arellano Cartel has been in the north for decades
They were farming from gangs in Logan Heights in San Diego back in the early 90s. They have always made their money in the US. All of the cartels have. That is nothing new. The Arellano Felix Cartel is now a husk of it's former self after its war with 'El Teo' last year and the arrests and killings of the Arellano Felix brothers. It is now little more than a few glorified cells operating in and around Tijuana.

Comparing Mexican drug gangs to La Costa Nostra is comparing apples and oranges. The Mexican drug gangs even make the Colombian drug gangs of the 80s and 90s look mild. The violence coming out of Mexico now is very Mexican and very male (machismo). Mexican drug gangs ARE expanding like you say but they are expanding to the south, not the north. Right now northern Guatemala is controlled by Los Zetas. Los Zetas and the Sinaloa Cartels have taken over the drug mafias in the entire country. Los Zetas are also active in South America and as far away as Britain and Italy, though not in a 'taking over' sense, but supplying the local mafia's with wholesale cocaine.

Stop asking 'cops' and start going to the source like borderlandbeat.com or Narco Blog (translated spanish).

Ive been following this war in depth for years and it is very fascinating to watch it all play out.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Well while you were following this at distance
as an academic pursuit... I was dodging bullets in the front lines.

But I do bow to your expertise... I really do... you know much more than the cops in the streets, or the medics in the streets, or for that matter, people who go back and forth and STILL have family in Mexico.

But you are the expert.

Have a good day... life, whatever.

You get to read the nice links, I get the nice nightmares. Oh and one of my custormers was the wife of the Leyva... just in case you wonder. Her son died in the OR... and that was one of the recurrent hot wars between those two. We were in the middle.

So go on, read your blogs.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Yes, I have studied this as an academic pursuit
I have a degree in Hispanic studies. I have also worked extensively with street children in Latin America. Sorry if my extensive knowledge on the subject offends you.

:)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Ok I am a historian by training OF MEXICO in fact
and it does not offend me, but you are also DISCOUNTING the PRIMARY SOURCES. Something my instructors taught me to cherish.

Knowledge does not offend me... but the fact that you are discounting what those in the street KNOW is happening is worrisome. Not the first time Academics will miss this though. Oh and the comparison to the cosa nostra is very apropo. So is the idea that you adapt to the tactical and political situation of a target. They have been doing this for DECADES, even you admitted it... with our local gangs here in San diego.

By the way... here is a hint, that has not made it to your precious links or academic press. Remember the Archbishop of Guadalajara, shot down on a mistaken identity by a gang for the Cartels in oh LA? Here is a big hint. the mistaken identity was a cover story. HE WAS very much involved with the Leyva organization and used a diplomatic pouch for more than just papers. Nah, primary sources would not know what they are talking either...



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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I am not sure why you are so upset
You wont get the big picture of what is happening in Mexico from some ambulance driver or asking a cop, or a neighbor who has family in Mexico. You seem more interested in having a pissing contest than anything else.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I have the big picture
and it is you who is interested in the pissing contest.

I know just how bad it is. I know it is a damn fucking war. I know 35K died last year.

I know the army and the navy have so poor coordination is it not even funny, but quite traditional. I know that the city of TJ, just as one example has over 15 different police agencies... with at many a cases overlapping jurisdictions, who also do not trust each other. Like other places, though less than others, the level of penetration in the alphabet soups of police agencies is deep. In places like Juarez, well they make TJ look like a nice place with a very honest police force.

I also know the mexican government is trying this new concept of ONE single police command for the whole country, which is very controversial and given there are only three years to do this... will be one by the time all this is formalized, if CONGRESS plays along, well by the next administration, unless CISEN and the next president are as committed, all this will fall apart.

I also know that the Zetas are the relatively new kids on the block, and their ties to the Army Special Commandos is there, when they were trained by both the German and the Israeli militaries. They were really not trained at Brag, no matter how many people want that tie, and it goes back to 1848. Of course nobody speaks of the SF Troops from the Air Force, a small, but very elite group of mostly officers and senior enlisted, who get very special nasty missions... but we all talk of the SEMAR and SEDENA having a pissing contest... which goes back a long time... And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

But go on, I think you are annoyed in fact that somebody else actually knows this crap.

By the way... want to know what other toys the cartels have? Some Stingers we are missing from Afghanistan... that came from the streets... and a shootout. Again, like the archbishop, you will not get it in your links. There are reasons for that... but the opening salvo of this war was a certain Aeromexico bird going down over Guadalajara... official story, mechanical failure. Ever read the manifest of who was on board? Care to cross reference when the US insisted Mexico start fighting the cartels and how much Mexico resisted? Now that is a freebie. And yes, it is part of the big picture. Hell General Galvan fought it to the day he retired... and he warned that doing that would lead to this. Of course the previous president wanted to LEGALIZE small amounts of drugs too, since he also saw where this was leading.

Oh and how they work?

The Leyva and the Arellano are old school, working in cells, almost... and recruiting from locals, They also do silly shit like help fund school supplies.

Sinaloa is a little more violent. The zetas basically are a burn the terrain, force people to work for you, and pure sheer terror. Have I got the picture now?

And yes, they are moving north, in different ways. Even the FBI agrees with that one. No, not the same methods they are using in Mexico, tripple so for the Zetas... but they are. That is a fact Jack... or is the FBI lying?
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I still dont understand why you are so upset
But, whatever.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I am not upset
But my huge hint... do not ignore primary sources.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Narco Blog IS written by primary sources
Edited on Thu Dec-30-10 12:16 AM by niceypoo
On the ground in Mexico, today.

Here is a good article explaining why.

:)
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MagickMuffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. I wonder how long Austin Texas has become a border town?!?
Last time I was there in August of this year it was still where it has always been, smack in the Heart of Texas.

:hi:



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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. In fact, they did report that the border control was specifically for ease of access into the U.S.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Los Zetas are the ones to keep an eye on
They have overrun about 20% of the country since last March and are making inroads into Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador...etc.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. and the US
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Los Zetas will never move into the US as a force
They rely on a weak central government for their impunity, which would never happen in the US.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. They have, they use the gangs
just like the cartel in Tijuana has to LA and points north.


But hey we really will never have an issue with this, ever. The MS-13 gang is one of the vehicles, the bloods and the cribs are another.

They have.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. That has been going on for a decade
Edited on Wed Dec-29-10 01:28 PM by niceypoo
MS-13 aren't zetas, neither are the bloods and crips.

Los Zetas are a paramilitary organization made up of trained commandos. They are very fluid in Mexico, operating as an army gobbling up territory. Their power is based on impunity, which they will never have in the US.

It is the cartel on cartel violence that has Mexico in a state of siege.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. From this report it appears that they influence almost the entire Gulf coast of Mexico
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yes, in Tamaulipas state, they have taken over completely
They are the defacto government in many areas, which is very sad because they are extremely brutal and greedy. They are like a swarm of greedy wasps, when they move into a city they will assasinate every politician and cop who doesn't play ball with them. They rob every bank and every museum. They level 'street taxes' on every business in town, forcing many out of business. They take over the local gangs and recruit new hitman commandos from them. They take over all the local drug dealing and murder for hire rackets. They kidnap people and if ransom is not paid they give them a choice of becoming a hitman for them for $5000 a month, or be executed. They kill their victims via prolonged torture. They are ruthless, sadistic and just plain evil and exist only to make/steal money.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. They should incorporate in the US and get some decent offices
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. They do.
The good thing is that (for now) most gulf violence is concentrated in Tamaulipas and parts of VeraCruz. Once you get down to Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatan, it's actually pretty safe. I know Yucatan has a murder rate that's comparable to Wyoming or something like that.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm booking my Mexican vacation right now. nt
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. We were there last year, it was calm then
Now the area we were in, Nayarit, is being overrun with gangsters and violence.
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dembotoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. yes so (not that i can afford it right now) where is the least awful vacation spot left?
I know bad things can happen anywhere.

Given that, where are the better odds for a good outcome--I have not taken a vacation in years.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Puerto Vallarta, Cabo
Cancun if you stay on the Hotel strip. There are a lot of killings and kidnappings going on in Acapulco. We were in Guadelajara last year and it was calm there.

Ironically Mexico City is the safest in Mexico now, two years ago it was considered the most dangerous. My how things have turned.

How once feared Mexico City has become Mexico's safest spot.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I had a great time in Mexico City last year

It's not as if the cartels have some itch to go after tourists minding their own business.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. Just a passing thought, but shouldn't the US be doing something
to help our neighbors?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Our media sucks, but we have started the Merida Initiative
and Mexican SF troops are now getting training from us... and the israelis and the germans.... and there's intel sharing.

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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. The US is doing a lot
The Mexican military does not trust the Mexican police. Instead they work closely with the US military in tracking and hunting down gangsters. Right now the problem is so rampant and widespread that for the time being it is unstoppable. Eventually one side will win, lets just hope it isnt the Zetas.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. You mean... asserting imperialistic control over internal matters in another country!

The horror!
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Isn't that the only way to solve a problem?
like Maria
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Not really, but some people can't tell the difference between exercising influence and persuasion

....versus dictating to other countries.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is the natural result of an uncontrolled market.
Lots of demand, locally suppressed supply, cynical and invested authorities.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. End the drug war, and you'll end the cartels. n/t.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. Holy Shit!
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