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Ramulux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:16 PM
Original message
Are those 7000 votes legit at this point?
So technically speaking have we now officially lost the Wisconsin supreme court race? Maybe I'm just in denial, but did this really just fucking happen and is it all totally legal?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not 7k, stop saying that. It's 14,000 with a net gain of 7.7k for Prosser.
That was a whole city. If it were blue, I'd want them certified, too. It was confirmed that the 14k was missing from #'s given to media Tuesday.

The claim is that the City of Brookfield's #'s were not in the #'s given to media (mistakenlyomitted from the Access database on her PC). Unofficial #'s. During certification, they caught it yesterday and contacted GAB. Since then, they've been counting and verifying - confirming the gain of 14,314 votes.

My Democratic CD chair spoke to the Democratic rep who was overseeing.

Should it have happened? no
Is the clerk an incompetent asshole? yes
Fraud? Doesn't look that way
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Thanks for this analysis, Nikki, which looks sound.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 08:31 PM by elleng
x(
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Why would the clerk have to give the media any information they didn't want to?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I don't understand the question.
The clerk always gives #'s to media election night. The claim is that a whole city was mistakenly omitted from totals but it was caught the next day while certifying.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. The city has an estimated population of about 40000.
An estimated 25% of the population is under 18 years old. Yet the county delivered close to 15000 votes. You claimed in a earlier thread that the city delivered 20000 votes in 2010. 14000 plus votes works out to 48%, possible. Democrats need challenge the numbers. I watched video of the press conference today, if the democrat behind the official was the confirming democrat, I wonder. I rather see a computer expert validating votes.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Watch her press conference
I suspect she is lying.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I did.
It was 6 miles from me.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. And you believe her?
You know much more than me but . . . I'd be surprised.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I believe my Democratic reps who are canvassing.
I think the clerk is an incompetent piece of shit.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. How was she overseeing??? that woman had control of the computer
and no one else...I will not believe it if the president said it let alone a dem rep...everything can be bought and made to look good..this was in the works long before the election happened..
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. She counted the ballots.
Crazy, huh?
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. She hand counted 14,000 ballots in one day?
I believe you, PeaceNikki, but I'm trying to understand the process.... :shrug:
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Per my Democratic Party CD chair (who I met years ago on DU and now know IRL)
She validated the information that she had. She compared the tape to the totals that she was given. That's the job of the Board of Canvass. Let me first state that in 2009 & 2010, I was the Wauk County Dem Chair and Ramona was my Vice Chair. She is a great Democrat and a retired union member. She also is the most honest person I know. (Which is why we selected her.) The board of canvass can only operate with the information they are given. If Nickolaus did something improper, we likely can catch her with technology and proper accounting. (Not to mention that Kloppenburg has the best lawyer on the planet.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Thanks, PN.... Who is Kloppenburg's lawyer?
I hear Ben Ginsburg has reared his ugly little head again for Prosser. :eyes:
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. The attorney who represented Al Franken. Marc Elias, an attorney with Perkins Coie,
Edited on Fri Apr-08-11 07:58 AM by PeaceNikki
a Washington D.C.-based firm with an office in downtown Madison. Elias is the same attorney who represented Democratic challenger Al Franken in his eight-month epic recount battle with incumbent Republican Norm Coleman. Franken eventually prevailed, winning his U.S. Senate seat by 312 votes.
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keroro gunsou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. i quote bartcop's law
well, paraphrase it at any rate:

any time someone stands to gain through action or inaction, expect them to do what benefits them the most with the the least amount of effort involved.

the clerk is question is an incompetent, republican loyalist. there is NO way this is mere coincidence, given she's been in trouble before for election results.

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deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. +1,000
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. I believe Bartcop's law says..
Whenever someone makes a "mistake" that benefits them, expect them to make that same "mistake" over and over again.
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keroro gunsou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. eh...
close enough for rock and roll...
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deception is a cruel teacher....
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. yup...in a fascist state...whatever they decide is legal.
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DoBotherMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is the evidence of the vote legit?
That is the question. Dana ; )
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Will it even matter if they're legit?
We've seen this movie before.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Have you been paying attention the last 8 weeks? WI Dems will deal with this.
If there's fraud, we'll find it.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Republicans will fight like hell to claim they are
Dems?... well maybe in WI
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. She's lying about having to hit the save button
in a "regular Access file."
If it is, in fact a regular Access database, there IS NO SAVE BUTTON. ONCE DATA IS ENTERED INTO THE DATABASE, IT IS AUTOMATICALLY SAVED.

I say that with more than 20 years experience of supporting Microsoft software for 2000+ people!

Now if it's a custom app, that's different, but that's not what she said.
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. She looked very nervous too
She was bought and I hope that she is found out.
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karnac Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. well, don't rely on what she enters into the database.
Count the data that was supposed to be competently entered into it. if it's wrong, its wrong, period.

Remember, we are not talking about a competent person here. Uses antiquated PC equipment and probably even an older microsoft office suite. probably one without nifty auto-save features.

Personally, I think she simply inputted her data onto a Excel spreadsheet, and imported it into an Access database AFTER she made her mistake. Probably calls potato potatoe too.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Her excuse doesn't pass the smell test.
You are correct. I haven't used Access, but I did program for twenty years, and no properly designed database allows data to be lost in the way that she claims.

Either the entered data is applied to the database right away, or, in the old days, it was saved to a transaction file, in which case the main data file was updated after a group of transactions were entered. In either case, the data would not be lost in the way that she claims.

Moreover, it seems highly improbable that an entire town's votes could be "lost" without someone noticing right away.

This is a case of attempted fraud, and we can't allow these cheats to get away with it.

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SlimJimmy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. If it had a "save" button, then it was on a form, and that would
indicate that it was a custom app. Since we're talking inside baseball here, the programmer could have disabled the automatic save feature when moving from a record and made saving each record an option using VBA. Not smart (in my opinion) but possible.
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. She didn't say it was a custom app, she said it was "a regular Access file."
Having shown literally thousands of people over the years, I know the difference.

If they are using VB, it's instant fail, because Access is THE MOST HACKABLE DATABASE ON THE PLANET! It also has more bugs than a lower east side tenement.

And someone who writes in VB is NOT a programmer, they're a script kiddie!
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SlimJimmy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. If that is the case, then why did she say "save" button? It could not have been an off the shelf
version if she was using a form. I really don't feel like bowing to your expertise, since I've been programming very complex ACCESS apps for ten years and understand the intricacies of the program as well or better than most. And while it is not "unhackable" by any standard, it's not like she was keeping actual votes on her computer. She was tracking vote totals from various counties/districts.
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. maybe she was lying? n/t
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SlimJimmy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. That's always a distinct possibility. (nt)
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karnac Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. Probably.
Essentially 14,000 people(a whole town) would have to have their vote disenfranchised for us to win. The error in releasing to the public WRONG and incomplete information is incompetent but legal.

what would be illegal would canvassing and certifying wrong results. The clerk could go to jail.

7000 is a huge margin to overcome just by nitpicking small votes all over the state.

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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. Prosser appears to be leading Kloppenburg by 5,510

Excerpt:

County election officials still are canvassing results.

But Wisconsin Reporter on Thursday totaled official results from 39 of the states 72 counties.

Twenty-three reported changes from the unofficial tallies reported Tuesday.

Adding Waukesha into those results, Prosser appears to be leading Kloppenburg by 5,510.

http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/forgotten-results-from...

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. that margin would be less than 1/2 of 1%, right?
so a recount is still a possibility?
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Anyone can have a recount.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 09:30 PM by former9thward
If the margin is above 0.5% they have to pay for it. The cost would be in the $17,000 range which is a trivial amount considering the amount of money that both sides spent on the race.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Here's the amounts....
Between one half of 1 percent and 2 percent, the cost to the candidate is $5 per ward. If the difference is more than 2 percent, the candidate requesting the recount has to pay for all of the costs.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. Unless equal incompetence in reporting numbers...
..turns up in our favor in Dane Country or elsewhere, yes, it appears we lost.

An entire city's votes were not reported, now they have been reported. It netted Prosser such a large number of votes that it is not likely the remaining canvassing and a recount will overturn the result.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. It is mid recount.
The difference of less than 1% started a recount. That does not necessarily mean that if a difference reaches 1% that a recount stops.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Here ya go....
Between one half of 1 percent and 2 percent, the cost to the candidate is $5 per ward. If the difference is more than 2 percent, the candidate requesting the recount has to pay for all of the costs.

----

A recount has NOT yet started. What is happening now is a canvas of the votes BEFORE they are certified.
After the votes have been certified then a recount can be requested.

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. wow, I've been offline all day, and didn't hear about this until logging into DU a bit ago
What a :argh:
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Tresalisa Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Me, too.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 10:23 PM by Tresalisa
Just got home from work, starting dinner, and logged on to see what was up. I am :nuke:

Not disagreeing with Peace Nikki about the validity of the votes, just want to know how the hell this could happen.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
33. Of course it is!!!
If you ignore the FitzWalkerstan phase. :evilgrin:
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