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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:16 PM
Original message
This post will certainly not be popular but...
I have to be in the minority here and ask you guys to calm down before you throw out accusations of voter fraud or a stolen election.

From what I understand the voting was done with paper ballots so if there really were 14000 or so unreported votes, they should be easy to verify. Believe it or not we have got Democratic representatives and lawyers on ground in Wisconsin so I am waiting to hear from them before I go all nuts.

Sigh...
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. I am with you and I am IN Wisconsin. Waukesha County, even.
Should it have happened? no
Is the clerk an incompetent asshole? yes
Fraud? Doesn't look that way
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. while I agree there is too much conjecture
and not enough info is available.

There is now way I could state that fraud can't be involved.

From the info gathered so far the woman has a questionable history and making a case either way is unwise. But dismissing the fraud is EXACTLY what the cheaters want to be stated before it can be investigated.

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. But it's so much more fun to run around shouting incoherently.
I'm sure that you're already being unrecced into oblivion for asking people to exercise patience and critical thinking.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. That's really uncalled for. The OP didn't say anything remotely unreasonable.
If you disagree, fine. But there's no need for name-calling.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. who are you talking to?
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. + 1. Hysteria reigns.
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. At last!
a moment of sanity!
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Party Pooper
:D


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. People will talk about what they want to talk about, your concern be damned. I rarely do this,
but unrec.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. Poll the people of Waukesha
Why not call them up, and ask them who they voted for?

There are records of who showed up, and their party affiliation ..it should not be too hard to figure out if things smell fishy..without violating the "sanctity of the ballot box"..hah! what a joke..

I would gladly give up my "secret" ballot, in exchange for having my vote counted correctly/. I am never ashamed of my vote, or worried about retribution..

We demand that legislators "go ON the record" so we can track how they vote, but then we turn the other cheek when it comes to our votes that apparently can be negated, changed, lost at will./.

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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Wow. That's nuts.
Or we count hand recount all of the paper ballots.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
55.  Well, do they use optical scanners to count the votes? And,
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 08:11 PM by Zorra
Are there voter rolls that people sign before voting? And, could the real ballots, if they exist, get tossed and get replaced by republicans involved in collusion? All marks on ballots look the pretty much the same.

Nickolaus has a suspect history at best. There are just too many variables when dealing with vote tallies in computers, and there are many other variables as well. Someone could have figured out exactly how to manipulate the vote count and hide or alter the evidence. It really does not appear to be all that difficult to do this in a corrupt system. People with a lot of money can do a lot of things that benefit themselves with that money.

IMO, the circumstances absolutely call for a re-vote for the entire county.

Something seems totally off, and it may never be possible to find out what.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. ALL recounts are hand counted here. All votes on paper.
And the whole state will be recounted. If there's fraud, we'll find it. Y'all have seen Wisconsin Dems in recent weeks... we're on it.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. I personally know some of the Waukesha Dem reps and they are smart people.
I will await a recount and know that they have my back.

This is Wisconsin, we will fight this. If you don't believe that then you've been covering your eyes and ears for 8 weeks.
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. I have faith in you Nikki!
You, after all, gave me the link that had the cheese I ordered! (halvarti chive and horseradish!)

Please make sure to keep us filled in so we know all the facts. I'm glad to know they have paper ballots. I LOVE paper ballots. (in oregon we do mail in voting...the last election had 87% of the people voting!!! i highly recommend it!) Do all the precincts use paper ballots?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Yes, paper ballots are the law thanks to a Dem Gov.
Walker hasn't overturned that yet.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. I was listening to Chicago's CPT and someone from Brookfield called in
(the town in question) and stated that they ran out of paper ballots and went to an electronic machine to finish voting in Brookfield.

Furthermore, nobody knows for sure how many of those ballots were paper and how many were electronic. Are the electronic ballots the ones so conveniently on the county clerk's computer?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. sigh
They used the DRE machines for the disabled which produce paper.

by law
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. What exactly is there to fight?
It sucks, but it honestly doesn't look fraudulent.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. We'll recount. And fight the Republicans, I mean.
Keep fighting.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I should have understood that.
My reading comprehension must be slipping. :hi:
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. The vote reporting was 'delayed' for some reason - I think on purpose.
There needs to be an investigation at the polling places regarding the ballots involved.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. The clerk should be investigated for sure
From what I understand she has a history of incompetency.

This is a major major error on her part.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's wierd..
virtually every time we lose, or looks like we may lose....the charges of voter fraud come flying out. Meanwhile, the Repubs claim the same shit when they come up short..

Can't anyone just accept a loss and move on?
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Not winning is one thing...but having a magical 7000+ votes come
in and the one running this thing is a crook and she is there for a reason...
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. how is she a crook? i missed any info on her except the computer part.
I do wish the whole country had one approved system with a paper back up.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. I would not say she is a crook but incompetent
She has a history of having questionable election practices such as saving the election data on her personal computer. When you do not do your job the way you are supposed to shit like this happens.

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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Of course you're correct but...
If this country, not just certain segments of it, would do everything possible to ensure fair elections, than situations like this wouldn't be nearly as alarming. So many of us wouldn't be so quick to question irregularities or if we do question, be much more willing to accept a legitimate excuses.

Sad state we find ourselves in, unfortunately.
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iamtechus Donating Member (868 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. For starters, please use the correct terminology. It's election fraud not voter fraud
The magically appearing thousands of vote place the totals outside the range of a free recount. The challenger would have to pay for a recount. Very costly.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. It's $5 per ward. And, given the amount that's been spent on this race, a pittance
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. If under 2 percent. Otherwise ....

Between one half of 1 percent and 2 percent, the cost to the candidate is $5 per ward. If the difference is more than 2 percent, the candidate requesting the recount has to pay for all of the costs.

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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. There won't be more than 2%.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Why Prosser needed EXACTLY +7500 votes....
Why Prosser needed EXACTLY +7500 votes....
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/07/964575/-Why-Pr...

----------------

Also...
Prosser was Ms. Nickolaus' boss
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Eek! Kick for this post. nt
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. A thorough investigation is in order! nt
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Now, now, don't get hysterical giving facts about the real connections between the players here...
Here's a behavior guide:

If you look for fraud = hysterical.

If your denial is automatic = reasonable.

See?
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
15. Amen!
I am actually a bit shocked that so many seem ignorant of how elections are conducted. There was, in fact, a Democrat involved in the counting of the votes. What needs to be determined now is exactly what happened. It is not as though Democrats are not involved with this process. Whether the ones involved got snookered is yet another matter to be determined.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
16.  I like your respect for common sense and the facts.
However..... This is Brookfield were talking about.... Diebolt has their office here... I do look forward to seeing how they show this one.....
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. The claim is that the City of Brookfield's #'s were not in the #'s given to media.
Unofficial #'s. During certification, they caught it yesterday and contacted GAB. Since then, they've been counting and verifying - confirming the gain of 14,314 votes.

My Democratic CD chair spoke to the Democratic rep who was overseeing.


Should it have happened? no
Is the clerk an incompetent asshole? yes
Fraud? Doesn't look that way
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. So the question i have is she moved the information from secure
servers to her desktop and servers in her office. This violate all kinds of IT security rules.

It is rather convenient she didn't find the votes the day of the election.

We should be suspicious, we cannot trust them.
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. I am discouraged about the news, but tend to agree with you.
There are so many sure things to worry about (just ask me, I worry about it all), I will wait a while for this to play out before I let outrage reign.

And don't worry about being popular, if I remember correctly, the popular crowd was shallow. At least at my school.
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Terra Alta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. I would not put anything past the GOPukes.
They did it in Florida in 2000, Ohio in 2004, and probably here too. Never underestimate the greediness of the Repukes.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. Unrec Every reason to be wary and use every avenue to check this out, if it walks like a DUCK nt
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toddwv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. No sorry. Can't just roll over.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 07:26 PM by toddwv
There are suspicious circumstances. The circumstances need to be scrutinized carefully.

The County Clerk brought suspicion on herself through her actions.

If the scrutiny turns up a clean election, so be it. What's done is done.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I did not ask you to roll over.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 07:31 PM by thewiseguy
I encouraged patience. Like to hear from the Democratic representatives on the ground first.

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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Nobody is suggesting "rolling over".
I personally know some of the Waukesha Dem reps and they are smart people. I will await a recount and know that they have my back.

This is Wisconsin, we will fight this. If you don't believe that then you've been covering your eyes and ears for 8 weeks.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Money can buy anything and most anybody and the kochroaches
have plenty of money..
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Looks like fraud in the way the votes were handled, not in how they were cast
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
32. If someone were to write a Republican fairytale for small
Edited on Thu Apr-07-11 07:33 PM by rzemanfl
Republican children about the stalwart even-handed jurist Justice Prosser versus the forces of liberalism it would end in this fashion, with the magical discovery of the lost votes from the land of the Righties.

Sigh...I so love fairytales....
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. Because too many Democrats cannot accept a close election where their choice loses.
It always has to be fraud, a stolen election. Even before there is any real proof because the accusation is proof enough. But then the Republicans are omnipotent and can do whatever they like with impunity, so resistance is actually futile.

The biggest things that sucks about this is that everyone believed that Kloppenburg had won so it makes it that much more painful to find out it isn't true.

There might even be a few people here in Wisconsin who are now saying, "Gee, I wish I had bothered to go and vote for Kloppenburg". But we need to comfort ourselves that 1 out of 3 voters here in Wisconsin thought this election was important enough for them to go and vote. That along with that Koppenburg was never really expected to win.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. And is it not funny that it was 7000+ that gets lost and the one running
the election is a crook looks very, very funny...
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. I'm boggled to think that people believed we were looking at a cakewalk
in the same state that elected a bunch of Pukes less than two years ago.
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. we were just really rooting for you!!
You guys in Wisconsin have really touched us deep. We are realizing we are kind of at war and Wisconsin was the first battle. I am in Oregon and have been reading Channel3000 and JSOnline every day since this is erupted. I've also been reading CAP Times and Uppity Wisconsin. I sent some money to the Wisconsin State AFL-CIO. There are people who have been following your every move! You are showing us all how it is done!

(Because we know they will gut each red state and when they are all in compliance they are coming after the blue states. All that dirty Koch money and Rupert Murdoch media aimed at one blue state after another)



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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I meant DU. I'm from California.
We have our own idiotic election dramas. ;)
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. We elected those assholes 5 short months ago.
Prosser won his last election w/99.5%.

He got 547,000 votes. We tripled turnout and he only increased his votes by 35%.

Kloppenburg was a virtual unknown and Prosser has been in WI politics for 2 decades. He was polling THIRTY POINTS UP 8 weeks ago. Getting it to 50/50 is a fucking miracle.

Jesus Christ, people.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. At least a couple of threads here...
claimed that Winnebago County ran short of paper ballots and used E&S machines. Vote flipped on recount...don't know if the machine total was rigged.
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Snoutport Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. so we should have been happier over bush/gore?
We were all just rooting hard for you Wisconsin!! nobody likes to lose and there is nothing wrong with a recount if it is close.

Her numbers show a huge shift in the voters and that is the important part. But I really did want her to win.

I guess you all will just have to appease us by recalling, say, four state senators? (might as well have an extra just in case a Dem gets recalled)

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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. I'm not one that automatically makes accusations of fraud...
...but come on.

A Republican overseer who keeps data on her personal computer (to prevent "unauthorized" users) who has been accused of questionable election activity before suddenly finds thousands of votes almost 48hrs after an election that turns a close Democratic victory into a Republican victory that may be out of the reach of an automatic recount?

Give me a break.

If ever there was a time to shout, "FRAUD!" this would be it. Even if it turns out there is no fraud, the fact that something like this can happen is goddamn shameful and should be remedied immediately if further elections are to believe to be legitimate. The person responsible for this should lose their job.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. The closeness of the election was the biggest disappointment for me...
A win would be nice, but the reality is Kloppenburg was not going to magically begin reversing much of Walker's legislation. This election effectively became a referendum on Walker and his policy proposals, and what we found out is that fully half of Wisconsin voters actually support this anti-worker, anti-union, far right agenda. That is the real disappointment - especially when we had such momentum and energy going for us. Additionally, the results of this election indicate that the recall process may not net us the results we'd hoped for (flipping the state Senate).
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Yes, this will make recall elections more difficult. Maybe not in La Crosse where I am
because we went 59% for Kloppenburg, but in other districts it may well be and particularly in the recall against Walker if it happens. This election was the warm-up, the barometer for those recall elections to come, but apparently too many Democrats did not understand this. If I were a Republican I would be encouraged by the result of this election.

We had a 33% turnout here in Wisconsin, that means that 2/3 of the eligible voters did not bother to vote. It's too bad that more Democrats out of the 2/3 would have bothered to get out and vote for Kloppenburg. I don't celebrate that just being close is a great victory when actually winning was possible.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
42. Do they use Optical Scan to count the votes? nt







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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Yes, but ALL recounts are hand counted here. All votes on paper.
There will be a recount.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
62. How do you "store" paper ballots on someone's personal computer? n/t
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. The town in question ran out of paper ballots and went to a Diebold machine
and then the clerk "saved" the data on her personal computer which was stored off site and only accessible to her (did I mention she used to be Prosser's employee AND she's been accused of tampering with votes before?). Except she forgot to hit "save" she said, (even though there isn't any "save" option in Access - the program she was using).
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Very republican. Is Rove in town? n/t
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Not true.They used the DRE machines for the disabled which produce paper.
by law
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
66. No, the important thing is to
shit in a box and mail it to a rethuglikkkan.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. want some?
:popcorn:
nom nom
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
69. Overview of Wisconsin Election Law here -> (pdf)
Those with better legal minds and more patience can sift through for the specifics.

http://libcd.law.wisc.edu/~wilc/sb/sb_2004_07.pdf
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-11 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
71. Just remember, they will stop at nothing.
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