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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:43 PM
Original message
Upset over the "loss of unity" at DU? Gosh, gee, wow, hand wringing, etc...
I have read quite a few OP's in the last several weeks concerned over the perception of Democratic unity eroding away. People express a variety of emotions when voicing their concerns - a sense of loss, depression, frustration, disillusionment - a lot of unhappiness, to say the least.

A tireless theme in these outpourings is a strange, sideways sort of longing for the days of George W., when we had a "common enemy," and we found that our differences, while still present, were more a distraction than a commentary on Democrats in general - in other words, it was no big deal, because we had a much bigger fight on our hands - personified in the boy king and his cohorts.

I have to agree - the unity Bush spawned has faded and we now find ourselves occupied with trying to convince each other to support the powers that be or risk finding ourselves under the thumb of another Republican like, or worse, than Bushie boy. Sometimes the fear is thicker than spoiled milk.

I can tell you EXACTLY why we have no unity.

We united to get Obama elected, and though many supporters of other candidates were disappointed, they too "came back to the fold" and supported the Democratic nominee all the way into office, and then doggedly kept that support going in the face of disappointment after disappointment after disappointment.

SOME OF US united behind the ideals and ethics and promised actions. SOME OF US never bought into the cult of personality represented by Mr. Obama, or by the Democratic Party.

We united behind a SET OF VALUES we wished to see revived in our culture.

Want some unity again?

THEN DEFY CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, DEFY EGO, DEFY THE LURE OF VICTORY FOR VICTORY'S SAKE, DEFY THE SELFISH CALL OF CELEBRITY.

When you support a PERSON and not the values you support that person to act upon, you will excuse ANYTHING THEY DO OR DON'T DO which contradicts your OWN VALUES. This ain't friggin' Beverly Hills 90210 -- this is our CHILDREN'S FUTURES. And you want to bitch about disunity instead of working to defend and fight for your values?

Grow the fuck up and stand up for your values instead of living in the false comfort of a persistently dishonest cult of personality. This isn't a goddamn high school popularity contest, and the level of Democratic "hurt feelings" is getting to be pathetic. Supporting a PERSON instead of YOUR VALUES is weak, hypocritical, self-serving, and indicative of a lack of focus on WHO WE ARE.

And perhaps worst of all, it is a selfish betrayal of our potential.

I want, as do countless other people, true unity...but we are NOT going to find it in the box of tissues we keep passing around.

Our values are the ONLY honest unity we EVER had.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. No, no, no
This is as good as we could possibly hope for, and asking for better is simply a betrayal of America. Arrest my case!
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:48 PM
Original message
Why would we arrest your case?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. Uh, see, there was a poster named Mr. Benchley
And . . . ah, never mind.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. !
:spray:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
66. What fond memories.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. More like, they told us we had "no place to go" and they must be right -- !!
:rofl: if it weren't so pitiful and sad!!

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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good post. You do have a point there.
K/R
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. .............
:popcorn:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. HUGE K & R !!!
:kick:
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. There'd be unity if the de facto Party head (sitting POTUS) didn't oppose the Party platform. eom
n/t
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
61. and if the masses didn't ACCEPT the POTUS opposing the party platform.
"please sir, may I have another????"

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Avant Guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
74. Worse yet, replace it with RW platform
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. shorter OP: IF YOU WANT UNITY, AGREE WITH ME
.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Woosh... Right Over Your Head...


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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. OH NOES YOUR CLEVER PIC HAS REFUTED ME
.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Uh - I never said MY values - I said, repeatedly, YOUR values.
Is there something I failed to explain properly? I'm not asking you to do shit for me - if you cannot understand self-honesty is principally an exercise for one's self benefit (with benefits accruing to society at large as well), I recommend reading a little Shakespeare - Hamlet is always a good choice for this particular study...
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. sorry, but
it's implicit in your criticism. The assumption that other people are operating from a "cult of personality" is a bad faith accusation.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. If you read any of the "support" articles, you will find they are FEAR based --
FEAR will keep you prisoner --

Now, if you want to tell us that you support the VALUES implicit in Obama's

corporate agenda, then that's another problem!

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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. Okay, I've just got to bite
Please explain - in detail, I'm a bit slow - how my argument, as written, is an implicit demand for exclusive conformity to my views.

:beer:
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
67. You are correct. He concludes that those who support Obama only do so
due to the "cult of personality" and not for their own reasons.

As a simple example. I support Obama because I think he's done almost everything he said he'd do, and where he hasn't, he's had to fight weak Dems and a relentless GOP while in the middle of one of the worst shit storms in history.

I suppose that I could argue that those who don't see this and support Obama (and unite with me) are operating from a position in which their "naive view of politics" prevents them from seeing anything positive, ever.

And I suspect that the OP would disagree and think he had been insulted.

The fact that he doesn't understand that his claim regarding a "cult of personality" is an insult says more about him than it does about anyone else.



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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
53. Reading comprehension can be your friend
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
68. +1...nt
Sid
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. +100000
"Supporting a PERSON instead of YOUR VALUES is weak, hypocritical, self-serving, and indicative of a lack of focus on WHO WE ARE."

Every time I hear an adult say they *worship* a celebrity or politician I want to punch a wall. And then they get knotted knickers when you point out how juvenile they are acting.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. I won't abandon my principles for any politician or political party. I'm still against all the
bad decisions of the previous administration, & I refuse to embrace these same policies simply because they are being implemented by a Democratic president.

I will say this: As long as there is only a choice between Democratic & Republican candidates, I will always choose the Democrats. There will always be certain lines that Democrats won't cross (knock on wood).
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. which certain lines would that be?
you mean like Social Security "reform"?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I'm wondering the same thing -- !! Amazing this trust after these two years -- !!
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. more rumors that SS is on the butcher block in these behind the scenes negotiations
Edited on Tue Apr-05-11 12:04 AM by 2banon
I know there won't be a complete repeal of SS, but whatever ends up being negotiated, i can gaurantee that it's going to be extremely regressive. They know there will be a major revolt scross party lines if they get too radical, but we should consider anything regressive to be too radical.
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. right on! I don't want a loony religious fundamentalist in the white house
it was a good thing Pat Robertson didn't get past the 1988 primaries...but Mike Huckabee? Sarah Palin? Michele Bachmann? They're doing His Good Work in the place of a failed televangelist's campaign. And anyone recall 1980 or 2004?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. You mean they might give our taxpayer dollars to "faith-based" religious orgs?
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 11:42 PM by defendandprotect
Or do you mean like Lieberman?

There are tons of dems -- not pre-bribed and not pre-owned by the corporations

we can run on the Dem ticket --

We have a VP who has been calling for a year and more now for Israel to attack Iran!

Biden says, "Israel would be JUSTIFIED in attacking Iran" -- !!

Biden is also the guy who gave us Clarence Thomas on the SC!!

Ten years of war and you haven't had enough yet?

Our Treasury is being bankrupted by Iraq/Afghanistan and these immoral and illegal wars!



One of the points of these wars is the push to create antagonizm between Christianity and

Muslims -- and they've succeeded in that rather well!!

US/CIA created, wrote, printed and shipped into the ME the very violent textbooks that

so many Americans heard about -- played over and over again on their TVs!

This was done to try to create a violent form of Islam!

If you want any more info on that - let me know!



The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard...


If you knew that, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know, pass it along --

:)

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm "disappointed:" because I feel my VALUES aren't being supported - no cult
of personality here. Acquiescing too quickly, allowing further offshore drilling, nuclear energy facilities, allowing programs for the poor to be slashed, not moving to end the tax "breaks" the huge corporations receive, not curtailing the H1B visa program, not rescinding privacy violations, and I could go on. A belief that our values would be acknowledged rather than ignored, a belief that our values would be fought for, a belief that our values would once again be restored, but finding they don't appear to be all that important, that's what hurts. We wanted what is best for our country and our people, and look at where we are now.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Indeed...
I think, then, it is time for us to begin acting on our values, instead of "taking one for the team" and absorbing our righteous disappointment. A sense of disillusionment is disturbing, even frightening, but it is also deeply instructive.

Bon courage!
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. I recommend this post
+1
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. once again, Gately, You nailed it.
YOUR list, + I'm still very.."UNcomfortable"..
with all the left-behinds & recycled folks
from the previous admin. in THIS administration.

That was an early sign to me that I had been mis-led
by campaign speeches & Promises.

Still, I HOPE!

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mythology Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. cult of personality?
Do you really think that you're going to get a useful debate when you start saying that Barack Obama supporters act as though they are members of a cult?

But then again, you aren't looking for a useful debate. You just want to insult those people who disagree with you rather than talk about how to actually enact your preferred political positions.

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Good point.
Obama Cult of Personality is pretty much a right-wing fabrication.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I'm always suspicious when people lob that "cult of personality" charge that
they weren't Obama supporters by choice.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Paitence... patience... patience... count to 100...
A cult of personality arises when an individual uses mass media, propaganda, or other methods, to create an idealized and heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.<1> Cults of personality are usually associated with dictatorships. The sociologist Max Weber developed a tripartite classification of authority; the cult of personality holds parallels with what Weber defined as 'charismatic authority'.

A cult of personality is similar to hero worship, except that it is established by mass media and propaganda. However, the term may be applied by analogy to refer to adulation of religious or non-political leaders.

While the cult of personality generally applies to the enhancement and promotion of a political or religious doctrine, it stands to reason that it is also asserted in everyday situations where popularity is used to advocate conformity to philosophies and lifestyles, even products and attitudes by way of peer pressure and herd mentality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality


By the way - Wikipedia is a good resource for verifying all kinds of stuff...you wouldn't believe all they have there, you know, facts and junk...going to Wikipedia and learning about things helps can help calm righteous indignation when factual data is obtained (I think I read that at Wikipedia!).

Knowing, sure beats the heck out of bleating the exact opposite of Republican talking points --- (yes, another Simpson's reference coming) "Something was said by Republican...something bad...must say exact opposite..."

So is my use of the TERM "cult of personality" clear enough for you, or do I need to break this down a bit more?
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Well, I'm glad you set us all straight. Hows does 1 person reflect the specific values of millions
of other people. There are probably millions of different values. Some people are happy with Obama because he reflects enough of their values in order for them to be happy with him. Some are disappointed with Obama because he does not reflect their values enough.

I think that in 2008 millions of people were caught up in the moment and saw the Obama they wanted to see rather than who e really was, heard what they wanted to hear, and saw him as this huge iconic figure who would stand with the all time greats of the Democratic Party. There was no way Obama would ever live up to the expectations of some people and those people were bound to be disappointed and disenchanted with him.

The simple, honest long and short of it is and the reality is that the next president will either be Barack Obama or the Republican nominee. If you do not support and vote for Obama, then you are helping the Republican to get elected. This is such a simple concept that I am surprised how many do not or refuse to grasp it.

If we were to have a candidate who is so perfectly Liberal and Progressive so as to give most of the left of the Democratic Party orgasms, that person would be a sacrificial lamb on election day, losing in a landslide. Then we could be all righteous and noble with our values as a Republican dragged this nation down the way we see Republican governors doing to their states and appointing judges and SC justices who will reflect their values, or lack of them, for many years to come.

No matter how bad Obama may be, he is light years ahead of the alternative and for those who choose to live in reality that's all there is.

Interesting post, but points lost for needing to use "fuck" to make your point. A third grader could do that.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I appreciate your response.
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 10:48 PM by JFN1
However I must fault your straw man argument - "If you do not support and vote for Obama, then you are helping the Republican to get elected. This is such a simple concept that I am surprised how many do not or refuse to grasp it." This is not a cogent position for supporting a President.

Perhaps I need to clarify:

-- There is only one way I will support Obama, and that is if he can show he is trustworthy and will work to promote Democratic values.

-- I cannot see a future for America (ie, our children) with a 2012 Republican in the WH.

-- Therefore, I have, in my view, only one option: Bring sufficient pressure to bear upon Mr. Obama so that he understands if he continues to behave in a manner incosistent with his own promises and the the values expressed by the Democratic party platform, he will NOT be supported in his bid for re-election. If others believe this to be a proper course of action, I'm sure in the coming weeks you'll be hearing from them, as well, as they begin their own efforts. Electing a Democrat who works to promote Republican values while talking Democratic values is, in practice, no different than electing a Republican - it just feels better with the Democratic brand in use.
-------------
On a personal note, eloc: I am a military man. I keep my promises - period - and do not respect those who do not. Because of my long immersion in military culture, I also use "strong" language the way other people breathe.

My use of perjorative language, in a manner I consider to be both appropriate to the subject matter and effective, is quite deliberate, and I will not quail in its use for a moment. I worked on this post for over an hour, and I feel the use of "fuck" communicates my point in a considerably effective way.

Calling me childish for this use of language is, in my opinion, impulsive and unnecessary.
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. Fucking Amen
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. The class war extends into DU. There are the corporatist/centrists vs. the humans. nm
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You hit it on the head
The "Masters of the Universe" Wall Street Boys vs. The Main Street dullards, working stiffs, and assorted fucking retards
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #21
65. LOL! That sounds like the leftwing flipside of George Bush simplicity.
Yer with us or agin' us.

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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. It is the one thing that Boy Georgie got right. In a war there are only two sides.
In a class war there are really only two sides. Many think they can be in the middle but they live in denial. They want so bad to be in the upper class that they will sell out the lower classes.

Antonio Gramsci said that people are socialized to accept their class. I believe the ruling class have a sort of class sociopathy. They have no empathy for the lower classes.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. You can have your little war. I'll pass, thank you.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. we probably do not have that much unity in our values
What values do you think we are united on?

Ending the Bush tax cuts for the rich? Nah, some think that rich means over $80,000 and some think it only means over $800,000 in income. Some apparently do not care that Obama folded on this issue because they are happy that the struggling $80,000 family got to keep their tax cuts.

Ending DADT? There's more unity there, but Obama/Congress actually got that one done, finally.

Preserving Roe v. Wade? More unity there, but Obama/Dems have not compromised this one too much.

Ending the war in Afghanistan? Perhaps no more unity here than there is on Libya.

Closing Guantanamo? That does not seem to be as important an issue here as either freeing Bradley Manning or knighting Julian Assange are.

Other than the Bush tax cut surrender, I am sort of at a loss to list significant complaints about Obama. There is just the perception, perhaps, that he jumps whenever the Chamber of Commerce snaps their fingers and just flicks his chin at complaints from the left.
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. Don't get lost in the braches
At the root of each of those things you've listed are values which either agree with them as representative actions, or disagree with them as not representative actions.

It is the roots which unite us - not the branches.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
77. I have been trying to find out what values centrists have but none will fess up.
I think their values are very close to those of Republicans. But I have never gotten one to answer me when I ask.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
29. There will never be unity with a Democrat in power, because "your values" are defined in such a way
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 11:26 PM by BzaDem
that they will never come to fruition under any Democratic president the party successfully elects.

Since there will always be some people (in both parties) that will never be satisfied with ANYONE the party ends up electing, there will never be unity (on either side). It is just that simple. There was just as much Reagan bashing from the right in the 80s as there is Obama bashing now -- it is a fact of life regardless of who the particular President is.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
44. +100000
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
79. Congress and the President are almost all members of the top 1% class.
And they will only give crumbs to the masses. To the centrists here, I guess that's enough.

Some of us wont be satisfied until you end hunger in the USofA. We will never achieve that because the ruling 1% want to extract every last cent from us.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
30. Terrific OP --but think they're too fearful to break out of prison -- !!
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Unity can't happen if there's no valid goal to pursue.
Maybe if the president were pursuing those goals, it would be possible, but since he has chosen to pursue other things, it isn't. But I blame him for that, not the Democratic Party's alleged inability to unify.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. My outlook is that if we all agreed about everything all the time...
This place would be boring as hell...
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. thank YOU for sayin' it!
I got jumped on another thread,
because I said, "My President continues to disappoint me"..?!
I truly appreciate Your post..it IS about OUR Values.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'm not a member of any organized political party...
...I'm a Democrat!

As true today as it was when Will Rogers first said it 70 years ago.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
42. Unrec
for condescending sexual intellectualism.


-
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
45. Unrec, Fail and Ignore. n/t
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. That sounds like
all three strikes at once.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
48. Excellent summary of the situation
it is about values - always has been with me - my local Dems still have them - why don't the national ones? when they have been bought - as it sure as hell appears they have been at the national level - aren't we required to call them out on selling out their/our values?

k&r.
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
49. Recommend x100
because I hope with all my heart that the last sentence of the OP is true. Ultimately it doesn't matter; I'll vote my values no matter where it leads us because I've seen the result of faking it and it isn't pretty. Great post JFN1.
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
50. "cult of personality represented by Mr. Obama"? "SELFISH CALL OF CELEBRITY"?
Edited on Tue Apr-05-11 12:40 AM by NYC Liberal
Nice right-wing talking points there. They are smears against Obama, Democrats, and their supporters that have been used by Republicans for several years now. Why are you using them?
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Anger, huh?
Please see this response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

and then get back to me on my alleged use of "right wing talking points" versus a vocabulary constantly under maintenance...
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NYC Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Yes, it's a right wing Republican talking point and that bullshit
has no place on a website for Democrats. So is your "SELFISH CALL OF CELEBRITY" line.
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Avant Guardian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #57
78. What would you call it then?
Edited on Tue Apr-05-11 07:50 AM by Avant Guardian
How would you label the blind worship?
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
70. He doesn't seem to get that claiming those who support Obama only
Edited on Tue Apr-05-11 07:29 AM by JoePhilly
because of a "cult of personality" is insulting.

He operates from "values" those who don;t agree with him are locked in a "cult of personality".

But he doesn't see the insult there.

Doesn't sound like some one I'd want to unify with.
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
52. kick & rec, You called it.
I'm thinking:
UNrec = cultist mentality?
mixed up with a whole bunch o' denial, seems to me.
waaaay too defensive of our guy, & then the hostility at the *realist* who dared to question.
I love President Obama, I don't like how he's doin' in the Job.

:hide:
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
54. Horse hockey pucks.
A bigger strawman doesn't exist than this lame "cult of personality" retread of originating from RW talking points.
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
55. K & R!!!
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
56. I`m glad you understand the problem.
Principles no longer matter, only "winning" does.

Here`s a good test.... take each one of President Obama`s appointments and positions on issues and pretend George W. Bush did it. Would most DUers still stand up and cheer? Actually, you could find many answers in the DU archives.

Obama squandered a historic opportunity.
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #56
71. Winning at all costs
Winning at all costs without regard to standing up for ones principles is a non-starter for me. I really have no respect for people whose principles change depending upon whether a Republican or Democrat is in office. Those people show me that they really have NO principles and only care about power for the sake of power. If it was wrong under Bush it's just as wrong under Obama and making excuses for it just demonstrates a pathetic lack of integrity.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
58. Another "Let's all unify to support 'my SET OF VALUES'". In 2008 the only UNITY
we had was to not elect McCain and the Pain. Many of us supported other Democratic primary candidates and did not agree with all of Obama's positions on issues even if we supported him. To say that we had unity over any SET OF VALUES in 2008 is laughable.

We will not have that unity in 2012 either but that is nothing new. The repubs will have the teabaggers dragging the party to the right while they call repubs they dislike RINO's or worse. We will try to move our party to the left and call Democrats we don't like DINO's or worse. (Given recent history the teabaggers are more likely to succeed than we are, though sometimes "success" wins the battle and loses the war - see Christine O'Donnell and Sharon Angle. Overall repubs won enough battles in 2010 to win the "war" - control of the House, too many governorships and state legislatures.) If we win enough "battles" to get progressive candidates nominated, we will probably win the "war" even if we lose a few of those "battles".

Bush fractured the repub party in 2006 and 2008 (and was a unifying factor for us). We won handily in those elections. Now we have to deal with the fact that opposition to Obama (and his "socialism" and "Obamacare" and the teabaggers' infamous "birtherism") is a unifying factor for the repubs while we "fracture" (though hopefully not to the extent that repubs did over Bush) over what Obama has and has not done to meet our expectations. Repubs should hope that we "fracture" to the same extent that they did in 2006 and 2008 and, even earlier, in 1992 and 1996 when Perot split the repub vote and helped Clinton get elected with 43% and 49% of the popular vote, respectively.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. +1
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
59. "Idealism!!! Yes, till the day I die! But, will I lead? Sounds scary."
We'd rather be united in our idealism against the ruling party than struggle with the realities of leadership.

Sounds like cowardice to me.
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
62. Victory for victory's sake? Bullshit!
If you look at current events you might note a trend among Republican governors and lawmakers. Even the most lukewarm Democratic administration is highly preferable to those anti-labor, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-freedom scumbags.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. +1
I'm really glad that a lot of Dems are waking up to this.
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smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
63. Well said!
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
69. Vote for whomever you want, but don't use DU to help Republicans...nt
Sid
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
72. Bravo, and thank you.
:applause:
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
73. Black and white
Here's (part of) the problem as I see it...

the problem of nuances and shades of gray.

Which seems to be one problem many/most Republicans don't have. With them, it's either black OR white. Right OR wrong. This OR that.

You're either with them, or you're against them.

With that sort of thinking, it's not hard for them to follow in lockstep with each other.


Here at DU I see something different. Yes, there are still some who see things in terms of either/or, but most DUers do see shades of gray.

That makes it more difficult for people to agree, to any extent, on many things.

Of course, it's a disadvantage when we want to get people to come together on important issues, but it does make for some pretty interesting discussions here. As opposed to The-place-whose-name-I-will-not-speak, where they all sound like two-legged parrots, chirping out the same things. So much so that it's predictable what you'll read over there.

Anyway, that's my take on it.





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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
76. Happily recommend!
Great OP!
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NRaleighLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
81. Locking
Though there are some ideas discussed here, there is also a pretty broad focus on DUers, not the ideas - time to lock.
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