What do you guys think about Bradley Manning?

[Th1onein]

I'm curious.

[Statistical]

1. His heart likely was in the right place, but he committed a crime.

1) He should have tried to work from within the system (other war crimes have been exposed, investigated, and prosecuted) without releasing information to foreign entities.

2) He decided to go beyond exposing "war crimes" and released 250,000 unrelated documents. That kinda kills any moral imperative defense.

As a result if found guilty I believe he will and should spend rest of his life in prison.

[oneshooter]

6. If found guilty he could face the hangmans noose. n/t

[Statistical]

7. He could but I remember reading a statement by the DOD that they are only seeking 52 years.

I think the last time someone was executed under the UCMJ was in 1961.

[enough]

12. Wait a minute. He has not been charged with any crime, let alone tried. Why do you assume he is

guilty?

[Pavulon]

13. He sure has, this list will grow

to include charges that carry a death penalty.. Depending on his level of cooperation.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33963588/Charge-Sheet-Pvt-Bradley-Manning

[enough]

14. Thank you. I stand corrected on the charges, but he has not been tried. You are

assuming guilt without a trial. I don't.

[Statistical]

30. Innocent until proven guilty is a standard for conviction.

If he is innocent then he will get a chance to prove that in court.

However to pretend we must treat (outside court of law) everyone innocent until proven guilty is beyond stupid.

Do you treat President Bush as innocent or do you assume he is guilty?
What about a previously convicted rapist caught in some woman home. Would you let him stay with your mother pending trial? Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

He may be innocent but he himself claimed he isn't (in claims made to an informant). SIPRNET & JWICS logs everything. I mean everything. Every keystoke, every login, every command, every file copied/opened/moved.

It is highly unlikely he is innocent of all charges. Now maybe you should think there shouldn't be charges but that isn't the same thing as innocent. No more innocent of crimes than President Bush. I am sure you correct everyone you meet that he hasn't been tried yet right?

[enough]

91. I simply don't accept accusation as a sufficient standard to judge someone guilty.

I'm afraid I know too much about how the system works to take that as the standard. And having an "informant" does nothing to change my view of this.

[MH1]

78. I see quite a few people here calling him a 'hero' for what he supposedly did

Just curious, do you also tell them not to assume that he's really the guy who did it?

I don't mean to pick on you personally, but this is something I've noticed and I think it's kind of a discrepancy, don't you? Either the facts are known or they aren't. Can't have it both ways.

[enough]

92. This is a very interesting point, MH1. I'm not calling the guy a hero, because I don't know whether

he did it or not, but I agree that we tend to jump on an attribution of "heroism" with less evidence than we would to convict someone. Definitely a discrepancy.

But there may be some justification to the discrepancy, given that convicting someone takes away their liberty (or even their life), so it should damn well be as certain as possible, whereas calling someone a hero is just another piece of flotsam in the sea of opinion.

[MrScorpio]

20. What Statistical said nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. To what purpose? Is he a threat to society?

What possible purpose would it serve to put Bradley Manning in prison for the rest of his life?

[Statistical]

39. We don't only put people in Prison for the rest of their lives because of threat.

We put people in prison as a punishment for past activities.

Does anyone think Madoff could get away with another ponzi scam with his name plastered across every newspaper in the world. Hell he could be no threat to anyone by the government simply checking up on his finances periodically.

However he isn't given that option despite being a minimal threat to re-offend. He will spend the rest of his life in prison and likely so will Manning.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. Not enough facts.

Someone needs to release some wikileaks on his case.

[PBS Poll-435]

3. Derp. nt

[Loudmxr]

4. Well I think he is really in a bad situation. Valerie Plame without the husband and BG dirt.

[emulatorloo]

8. Valerie Plame was a CIA agent who was outed to punish her husband. Don't see the parallel

EOM

[canetoad]

5. I think he is cursing the day

He first emailed Adrian Lamo.

[Iggo]

9. He's in a tough spot.

[Taverner]

10. I think he's a hero, but often true heroes aren't even appreciated by their 'side'

[sabrina 1]

15. I agree, he's a hero. Assuming that what we are told is the truth.

[Pavulon]

16. Will he still be a hero if he takes the stand against assange?(nt)

[sabrina 1]

17. If you mean, 'if he states that he was in touch with Assange'

about the leaks and if that turned out to be true, yes, both of them would still be heroes.

An editor & publisher talking to a source is normal, journalistic procedure. If someone is hoping that by getting Manning to say that they will bring down Wikileaks, they don't know much about journalism. As a matter of fact, this was raised in the Conyers Judiciary Hearing airc.

When Wikileaks published the Kenyan documents which contributed to bringing down some corrupt leaders in that country, was the U.S. screaming 'traitor' at Wikileaks then, or at the Kenyan leaker who was responsible? Should that leaker be in jail?

For their work on that story, Wikileaks received the Amnesty International New Media Award for 2009. What's the difference in exposing corruption and torture and illegal killings in Kenya or anywhere else?

[Pavulon]

18. If he testifies as a witness for the federal government AGAINST assange

stating they conspired in criminal acts. He would probably do this to avoid execution.

Hey now they made up for that by screwing up Zimbabwe, for 1.5 million dollar book deal.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/12/how-wikileaks-just-set-back-democracy-in-zimbabwe/68598

[sabrina 1]

23. Ah, so the new guy was working against his country in

collusion with the U.S., allowing his people to suffer for political reasons and Wikileaks exposed him? Looks to me like Zimbabwe just dodged the bullet of having yet another U.S. puppet government whose strings are being pullled by a foreign power.

What's interesting is that you think a soldier who reports a crime is a traitor, but political candidate who operates in secret with a foreign power while lying to his own people, is not a traitor.

His duplicity and cooperation with a foreign nation harmed his country. It was a fact whether it was revealed or not wasn't it? Treason, yes, that what we would charge any politician doing the same thing here. And he helped keep Mugabe in power.

Hopefully Zimbabwe will now find an honest candidate who is independent of the influence of the U.S. whose interference in other countries, like Nigeria eg, has done nothing but harm to that country.

Good for Wikileaks. Exposing corruption and lying politicians everywhere.

[Pavulon]

25. So Mugabe is a great guy and the US should support him? fo realz?

the us should not help the opposition there? Never seen someone shill for mugabe before.

[sabrina 1]

26. To African Leaders, Mugabe IS a hero. Bottom line,

none of this is any of our business, is it? Let African nations and South American nations, and European nations decide who their heroes are. We don't have much credibility anymore considering the brutal dictators we seem to always be supporting.

How about Karamov, of Uzbekistan, since you appear to be concerned that we only support the 'good guys'??

How do you feel about our support for him? Hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to one of the world's most brutal dictators. He makes Mugabe look like Santa Claus. How do you feel about that?

Wikileaks revealed that the U.S. is fully aware of the crimes of this brutal dictator, Karamov, which include the Genocide of his own people.

Stop pretending we are the good guys around the world. We are the ones killing innocent civilians in four countries right now.

I am for a free press. How about you? And let the chips fall where they may.

Zimbabwe belongs to its people, let them decide who they want to lead them. I don't believe any propaganda coming from the Western media about African or South American leaders unless it has been verified by more reliable and uncompromised sources.

[Taverner]

29. Back to the original issue: how can telling the truth make you a bad guy?

Americans SHOULD know what our government does.

We should have absolutely no "Black Budgets" or any secrets

A government with secrets cannot be a democracy, except in name only

[Statistical]

31. No secrets at all.

Some the limitation of your weapon system should be public knowledge.
The amount and locations of fissile material should be on wikipedia.
Every delicate negotiation with a foreign entity should be open access.
The blueprint and all research on nuclear weapons should be available to anyone.

Only in a fantasy land does any entity (individual/corporation/govt) not keep secrets.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Then it should be up to those who want the secrets kept to keep them.

And, not to persecute the whistle-blowers who discover them.

[Statistical]

38. Manning didn't discover the secrets.

He was cleared, briefed, and given access to those secrets under penalty of law.

He receives same briefing as any other cleared personnel does. Indicating his limitations and liabilities if he released information.
He willfully broke those and is suffering the consequence for his action.

By your logic had Manning posted on the web the locations of fissile material, or nuclear launch codes he should suffer no punishment at all. Like I said only in fantasy land.

If you, Manning, or anyone else feels they can't abide by the conditions placed upon someone working with classified material then ..... DRUMROLLL .... don't accept a security clearance and the consequences & limitations that come with it.

[Taverner]

41. Your argument holds no water

There is a HUGE difference between leaking a cable that shows how much SOS did to cover Bushco from facing justice, and leaking maps of where fissile material is.

[Pavulon]

44. 259,995 cables have dick to do with bush, just black flag shit slinging

morons dropping data just for the sake of doing it.

[Taverner]

47. It wasn't Like Manning had time to go through them all

And I doubt anyone sent maps of fissible material in Diplomatic Cables.

[Pavulon]

50. So instead he just dumped them. And for that

he is looking at a needle at the same prison mcveigh got put to sleep. Not his call, next time he decides to steal a quarter million documents so some asshole can sell them for a million.5 book deal he can be more careful.

million.5, motive.

[Taverner]

53. Which branch of the State Department do you work in?

USA, right or wrong, that's your motto...

[Pavulon]

59. Black Block, lets get all hyped up on some RAM and break windows at starbucks(nt)

[Taverner]

67. No, I want to know the truth

Riddle me this Batman: what punishment should Daniel Ellsberg have faced after releasing the Pentagon Papers. This was classified material too.

[Pavulon]

71. He dumped random documents?

apples and oranges, even if he says different. Manning is done.

[Taverner]

73. Doesn't matter - tell me was Ellsburg justified?

Answer the question

[Pavulon]

77. Sorry not gonna. (nt)

[Taverner]

80. OK then, its nice to know where YOU really stand

My guess is that you would have called for Ellsberg's head on a platter, along side every 'dirty hippy'

[Pavulon]

83. Wasn't he an officer?

not sure "hippie" would apply to him.

[Taverner]

84. You guys think anyone with a leftist bent is a hippy

[Pavulon]

87. Is that like "you people"

being late to meetings all the time? please clarify..

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taverner]

40. You and I both know the cables had nothing to do with any of that

Now yeah, if wikileaks had posted the amount and locations of fissile material, maybe you'd have a point

But no - the cables told the US how underhanded our State Dept is. We can verify, in writing, that SOS Clinton did everything she could to protect Bush from facing justice.

That's very different than the locations of fissile material

[Pavulon]

45. Sop what "war crimes" were in all those 250,00 cables, Quick math quiz

if assange got 1.5 million for each cable how much did each stolen document net his greedy ass?

[Taverner]

49. SOP we're not talking about war crimes

I am just using using the Clinton example of one thing that came out of this

There are many more I could cite, but I have a feeling there's no convincing you

USA!, right or wrong...Freedom is Slavery, drink the Kool-aid...

So should Ellsburg have been given the Death Penalty?

[Pavulon]

52. 250,000/1,500,000 dollars and groupie tail

that math pretty much sums it up for me. Assange is running an intelligence agency without a state. His people and his organization are forfeit.

[Taverner]

54. Hi Agent Mike!

:hi:

[Pavulon]

58. Translated, "fresh the fuck out of ideas" so you go adhom.(nt)

[Taverner]

62. Nope, I just don't want any of your friends knocking at my door

I mean, you might be able to sleep at night knowing our troops torture, kill innocents and bomb indiscriminately

Maybe you can sleep with that, but I can't

Maybe you can sleep knowing that SOS Clinton = SOS Condi

Maybe you can sleep knowing that Manning is being tortured right now

Maybe you can sleep knowing that the Administration is trying to make up a new law to prosecute Assange

Maybe you can delude yourself into thinking we're the "good guys"

Maybe you can delude yourself into thinking Manning and Assange are just attention whores

Maybe you can even delude yourself into thinking that America promises Justice for all...but I can't

You see, on one side there's you, on the other, the truth and the leaks

[Taverner]

64. And as for the leaks, I really don't care if Wikileaks posts maps and guides to all our nukes

And all our troop movements and whatnot...

Because America has betrayed the public's trust one too many times

And you say "pshaw, its a war, shit happens"

Really? Do you really think that?

Because that's the thinking of a Sociopath

[Pavulon]

70. At least you are in the clear with your positon.

its nice to know where everyone stands.

[Taverner]

74. Hey I expect my government to be honest

Not lie and tell me sweet little lies

If I wanted that, I'd get a hooker

[Taverner]

90. You do know the government used to post this all online

Pre-9/11 they used to have a site where you could track most of our fleet

It was really cool, especially if you had friends in the Navy or Marines

And believe it or not, doing that did not cause the USS Cole bombing

They could have showed up at the Yemen dock and found out they were there just as easily

[Pavulon]

69. Well, no one is going to put you in the gulag for your post

at the end of the day all that horse shit you posted is protected speech.

[Taverner]

75. Tell that to Joe Iosbaker and Jess Sundin

I'm sure they could use a good laugh about now

[Pavulon]

76. Laws are laws. Cant post kid porn online, cant conspire

when people do get caught they really should drop the faux surprise. They will get a public trial, just like everyone else.

[Taverner]

79. When were they conspiring?

And where was there kiddie porn?

No on both counts

[Pavulon]

82. lets see what the grand jury comes up with..

just like every other asshole they get a public trial. Thats how the system works.

[Taverner]

86. Not a good idea making baseless accusations then

And let's hope we can trust Judge and Jury, they've been known to show affections for the almighty dollar on occasion.

[Pavulon]

42. Did you know our founders sent coded letters, You know secrets, fairy tales

aside that will never happen in the US or any other country on the face of the earth. not now, not ever.

[Taverner]

51. So what?

Point is much of this should be public

But I forget, you support the USA, whether its right or wrong.

Those folks gunned down in Iraq must have deserved it, ya know.

Those Reuters journalists were al Queda, they had to be because America is never wrong....

------
You might want to step away from the Kool Aid and look at the US from, Oh, I dunno, the eyes of a Non American for a change?

Can't do that though - empathy is treason...

[Pavulon]

55. Reuters said its people were embedded and had no

problem with the us version of the event. They were with the enemy when they died, a risk taken by war correspondents.

[Taverner]

56. Did you even WATCH the video?

No guns, no arms, no weapons

They weren't doing anything but crossing the street

America, do or Die! Right or wrong!

Get a clue, Mike

[Pavulon]

57. Aww dont be hatey, their cameras looked like RPG-7 and they got shot

its a war, the wrong people die in those things.

[Smarmie Doofus]

11. Like him.

He allegedly did what I hope most of us would do if we had and knowledge of criminal acts ( in this case, war crimes).... and of a criminal bureaucratic conspiracy to obstruct justice by covering up same.

[oldlib]

19. A private in the army

should not have had access to secret documents. I fault whoever was his superiors for allowing this to happen.

[Pavulon]

21. He was busted back to pfc..

and you cant expect staff officers to compile the data themselves? Someone has to create all those powerpoints...

[Statistical]

32. So what exactly does an Intel Analyst do without a clearance?

I had a secret clearance 9 months after enlisting.

Can you imagine how utterly stupid and wasteful it would be to have someone enlist as an Intel Analyst and then be unable to analyze anything because he/she lacks a clearance.

What would your solution be? Promote him to Sgt so he has the right rank to get a clearance. How would a Sgt with one year in the military have any more credibility than a private with one year in the military when it comes to access to sensitive information.

You claim is utterly false and silly. Clearance has nothing to do with rank. When I was in military I had more clearance than many people with MUCH higher rank. It is based on need to know and an Intel Analyst (regardless of rank) has significant "need to know".

[HEyHEY]

22. Truly? I think enough is enough

With all the complete bullshit regular people have had to deal with in the last decade this guy finally decided to do what he could. I mean, really.... most of these so called secret cables were complete bunk. It shows how much people in government have abused the system to save their own necks. SO many of them never should have been secret. Why is there no investigation into that?

[Smarmie Doofus]

27. For the same reason there's no investigation....

of the helicopter murders.... and the conspiracy to cover it up.

>>>>>It shows how much people in government have abused the system to save their own necks. SO many of them never should have been secret. Why is there no investigation into that?>>>>

The crime... the government insists with its habitual psychotic logic..... consists not in the murder itself, and not in the cover-up of same,...... but in the EXPOSURE of the murders and of the existence of a criminal conspiracy related to the aftermath of the murders.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. About the same way I think of Daniel Ellsberg. A hero.

[JVS]

65. Good answer.

[MH1]

81. Innocent before proven guilty, right? How can he be a hero?

You don't really know that he did what he is accused of. If he didn't do it, then why would he be a 'hero', not just another victim of a screwed up justice system's 'oops'?

[MicaelS]

28. A politically committed man...

Who finally got fed up with all the lies, deception and general bullshit, and decided to do something about it. I think history will regard him like Daniel Ellsberg. In the short term, I believe TPTB will try their damnedest to find a pretence for executing him to "make an example of him", and thus deter any future Manning.

[Recursion]

33. That I don't know enough to have an even slightly-informed opinion

And neither does anybody else here.

[GliderGuider]

36. That he's now more myth than man

Oh, and that he's a hero in my eyes.

[Meatball]

37. Well theres no question that he committed a crime but...

..he is a hero in my book. Sometimes doing what is right means breaking the law and this is one of those times. Bradley Manning followed his conscience, knowing fully the consequences he would face, but he did it anyway and that took a lot of courage and guts. He stood up for what he believes in and I don't think anyone can take that from him. I wish I could be more like him.

[JVS]

43. He's probably guilty, but if I were president I'd pardon him after my final election.

[Pavulon]

46. Jesus christ will play madison square garden before manning (or pollard or hannssen)

get a pardon..

[JVS]

48. If Nixon could be pardoned, why not him?

[Pavulon]

60. Because manning is a treasonous POS

he will never be pardoned, he will die in supermax.

[JVS]

63. Like Robert E. Lee or Richard Nixon?

Those men died in comfort.

[Pavulon]

66. No like pollard, ames, and hanssen, and unlike rosenberg

another asshole who committed espionage for his ideals manning will not pay with his life.

[JVS]

68. You seem very bitter about this.

[Pavulon]

72. Reality, at times, is not fun

dont confuse reality with bitterness..

[TexasObserver]

61. The same thing I think about Daniel Ellsberg.

[Safetykitten]

85. Guilty! Of being ADORABLE.

[noamnety]

89. Much respect to him

sometimes our laws are not on the side of justice. I hope he survives this okay.