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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:34 PM
Original message
The speech is over. He said what he had to say. Can anyone explain how it is in our best . . . . .
. . . . interests to continue our Libyan adventure?
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nope. n/t
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sandyj999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nope n/t
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uh,uh !
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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Obama explained that in his speech.
Did you not listen?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I listened. Hence this question.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
69. This is the first part of what he offered
"America has an important strategic interest in preventing Gaddafi from overrunning those who oppose him. A massacre would have driven thousands of additional refugees across Libya's borders, putting enormous strains on the peaceful yet fragile transitions in Egypt and Tunisia."

preventing refugees (?) Or did I miss something?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Ah, so he used Egypt and Tunisia, popular revolutions around
world. Except we supported both Mubarak and Ben Ali even after those revolutions were well under way.

I hate being lied to. I would prefer and might even accept the truth. The days when propaganda worked are over. Even Hillary knows that, which is why she is trying to get funding so we can 'fight the information war' and 'get our message across'. Now that people are far more informed than they were, ten years ago, they will need to stop using this kind of manipulative dialogue. People are not easily fooled by it. Especially people in N. Africa and the ME and Latin America.

Just tell the truth. We don't care about civilians. The killing of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan is ongoing as he tells us he cares about Libyan civilians. It just doesn't compute.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:47 PM
Original message
All those refugees would head north
not east or west. That's likely what he got wrong.

Anything that floats would be put to use trying to cross the Mediterranean.
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
165. They would go north regardless, even more of them
after the rebels win with NATO's help. If there is one common feature of all those successful pro-democracy revolutions
it is that the standard of living and life expectancy will decrease dramatically, while poverty and mortality will increase,
as the free-market orthodoxy devours the fresh blood. Who the hell needs 6 million people in Libya? Certainly not the
coming free market, half a million is probably enough to run all the oil wells and pipelines, and even those are much
cheaper to import from Bangladesh or Philippines. The only way to avoid mass exodus from Libya was to let Qaddafi
win quickly, but that opportunity has irreversibly passed. Another common feature is the remorse and shame people will
feel at their own enthusiastic participation in destruction of their country and disappointment and disgust they will feel
towards their new leaders, who will inevitably turn out to be a bunch of corrupt self-serving thieves. I can confidently
predict that soon enough Libyans will rue the day when they decided to become tired of Qaddafi and will remember him
and his days with fondness and nostalgia. And, as always, they will blame the US for everything.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #69
154. "important strategic interest "
I remember Reagan giving us similar excuses about Nicaragua.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nope n/t
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is what should have happened in Iraq, when the Iraqis rose up. This will
result in good feeling for the U.S. in countries such as Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, etc. The U.S. has been making enemies like crazy and it is time to change our tactics. No more invasions. Maybe some more "help" with the international community. The military won't like it but so what? My opinion.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Please define "invasion" and "help"
Thank you.
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Invasion: Iraq. Occupation: Iraq and Afghanistan. Help: Doing away with radar
installations and anti air defenses. Also, stopping armored columns (See Clinton and Kosovo).
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. So then we're supposed to ignore the assaults on ground troops we've carried out?
Just trying to understand what we're supposed to think.
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Death is not funny, enjoyable, or the best possible outcome. Time will tell us what we should
have thought and then we will think what we think. This is a tough situation and Bush and his shenanigans have really poisoned the well.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Trust me . . . no one is laughing.
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elias49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nope. Not me.
Unless it's about oil.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Look. We have a deficit problem, ok?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 07:38 PM by Marr
We have to get Serious about cutting social services and-- huh? Oil?

TO WAAAAAARRRRR!!!!
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Maybe our best interests aren't what's important in this case...
maybe it's more important to help the Libyan people than to help ourselves.

Sid
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. But Sid, he opened with "our values" and "our interests"
Weren't you listening?

Nice try, though. Thanks for playing the game, but that's all for you for tonight. You get the home version, though.

Buh bye.

:hi:
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. It did make me wonder just who counted as being part of "our". n/t
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Did Canada play a role, Sid?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Yes, Canada has forces in Libya...
and a Canadian General is slated to command the NATO forces in Libya
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110325/ap_on_re_ca/cn_cana...

You really should look outside your borders once in a while. There's a big world out there.

Sid
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Maybe our business should be mankind? It IS in our best interest, imo. n/t
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Right, that's what I look for when choosing a president
someone who will put us second. :thumbsup:
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. You know what's hilarious about this? Think what people here would be saying if
GW Bush or John McCain said they wanted to go into Libya to 'protect Libyans'. No one would buy it for a second, and everyone would laugh at the absurdity of the claim. But put a different label on the politician, and the party faithful view the exact same situation 180 degrees differently. Exactly the same behavior we all used to mock in Bushbots.
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
167. Actually there was support for GWB when he went into Afghanistan.
Even here.

Now if Obama decided to attack the Congo Republic, ...
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
161. So, we should be intervening RIGHT NOW in the Ivory Coast.
Correct?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. Have they asked for help? Is there UN authorization to assist?...
If the community of nations decides that intervention is necessary, then yes, we should intervene.

Sid
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Are we trying to persuade the community of nations?
I wonder.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
171. Awful selfless with other people's blood and money, aren't you?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. The US intervened in Libya to prevent a slaughter of civilians that would have...
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 07:44 PM by ClarkUSA
... stained the world's conscience and "been a betrayal of who we are."

In blunt terms, Obama said the U.S.-led response had stopped Gadhafi's advances and halted a slaughter he warned could have shaken the stability of an entire region.

"To brush aside America's responsibility as a leader and more profoundly our responsibilities to our fellow human beings under such circumstances would have been a betrayal of who we are," Obama said. "Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. And as president, I refused to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110329/ap_on_re_us/us_obam...


Some people may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries but not me, not most Democrats, and not President Obama.
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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. exactly
which is why I'm lobbying for us to start bombing more places with oppressive regimes. There are lots. Let's get 'em!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Find another dictatorship where the leader has promised & started a genocide against his opposition.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 07:53 PM by ClarkUSA
Amid protests and crackdowns across the Middle East and North Africa, Obama stated his case that Libya stands alone. "In this particular country, at this particular moment, we were faced with the prospect of violence on a horrific scale," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110329/ap_on_re_us/us_obam...



Go find 'em!
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. DRC (congo)?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:03 PM
Original message
Link?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
74. ?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Shame on you
You cheapen the word genocide for political points on a message board.

I'm reporting you The General.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. "Shame on you" for ignoring that fact in your OP. Google proves me right -->
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
105. ooo, let me try. Did this work? Google proves you can link odd words together, doesn't it
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. Your joking about genocide is not only distasteful but very revealing.
Nice to know that higher-minded people are paying attention at the UN.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. I see a difference between genocide and massacre but find both very offensive.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:25 PM by uppityperson
I also don't see much of any "proof" by googling a couple words together. All it proves is that they have been in an article of blog together. That was my point. Sorry you missed it.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #114
118. "very offensive" eh? Funny, I find jokes about genocide "very offensive".
"massacres" and "genocide" are beyond "very offensive"
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. misread so edited it to delete. My apologies, read to fast and misread
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:34 PM by uppityperson
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. That's a false statement. I clearly said otherwise.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. Ah, my apologies, I misread. It seemed an odd statement from you, sorry I misread
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:35 PM by uppityperson
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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. North Korea would be a good place to start
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Link?
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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. what is your problem, man? I was agreeing with you...we should bomb the shit out of Libya
I just think we should also bomb the shit out of a lot of places...I've seen the light, only violence can stop violence. It's cool to bomb everyone back to the stone age now, because we are doing it out of kindness. But here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. North Korean concentration camps use gas chambers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

--snip--
Witnesses have described watching entire families being put in glass chambers and gassed. They are left to an agonising death while scientists take notes. The allegations offer the most shocking glimpse so far of Kim Jong-il's North Korean regime.

Kwon Hyuk, who has changed his name, was the former military attach at the North Korean Embassy in Beijing. He was also the chief of management at Camp 22. In the BBC's This World documentary, to be broadcast tonight, Hyuk claims he now wants the world to know what is happening.

'I witnessed a whole family being tested on suffocating gas and dying in the gas chamber,' he said. 'The parents, son and and a daughter. The parents were vomiting and dying, but till the very last moment they tried to save kids by doing mouth-to-mouth breathing.'

Hyuk has drawn detailed diagrams of the gas chamber he saw. He said: 'The glass chamber is sealed airtight. It is 3.5 metres wide, 3m long and 2.2m high_ is the injection tube going through the unit. Normally, a family sticks together and individual prisoners stand separately around the corners. Scientists observe the entire process from above, through the glass.'
--snip--
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. That's a news story from 2004. Where are the recent stories of genocide?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:45 PM by ClarkUSA
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. It's still going on and it's been going on for decades. When do we start bombing?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Not one report of genocide, though.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. A murderous dictator, killing and starving his own people isn't good
enough? Killing political prisoners? gas chambers? So only Libya counts?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. Yes. If you bothered to listen to Pres. Obama's speech, you wouldn't be trying to move the goalpost
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. I got it. It's only a humanitarian crisis when Obama says it is.
It says a lot about you when you don't respond to what is going on in North Korea. It's been like that for decades. Your outrage at humanitarian crises is selective and duly noted.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #100
116. The world has been dealing with North Korea in the best way it sees fit.
It's ridiculous to imply otherwise. I really could care less about what you're saying because it's clear you have no interest in preventing genocide in Libya. If you want to flog North Korea further, start your own OP.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. Here's one for you: Genocide
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Park says his parents wish he would worry for the moment about his own health, not the health of 23 million people. But Park doesn't listen. That's why he pulled himself out of a psychiatric hospital in Tucson and returned last September to Seoul, where he had been living before entering North Korea. That's why he speaks at as many churches as possible, presenting slideshows that feature photos of children, little more than limbs and ribcages, and illustrations of firing squads. Park calls this "genocide." He criticizes Washington and Seoul for viewing North Korea, foremost, as a nuclear-armed security threat while ignoring the way North Korea treats its own citizens.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #89
95. I meant a credible news report, not a subjective opinion from a mental patient.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #95
107. Wow. He went through hell and you say he's a mental patient.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #107
120. Um, I stated a fact gleaned from the excerpt you proffered.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:30 PM by ClarkUSA
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #120
127. So are soldiers and Marines who come home from war mental patients
because they have PTSD?

My uncle was a tailgunner on a B17 in WW2. He was shot down over Germany and was the only survivor of his crew. Nine of his fellow crew were killed. When he was taken prisoner, he was shaking really bad from what he just went through. He was a POW for a year. He suffered from PTSD from what he went through. He drank himself to death. You know what they found in his wallet? A list of the names on the plane that day that didn't survive. My uncle was not a mental patient. How dare you.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. I have no interest in your outrage. If you can't stick to the topic of Libya, I'm done here.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. Wow Clark. You label a guy who was in a concentration camp
a mental patient and all you can say is "you have no interest in your outrage".

A humanitarian crisis exists in Libya and North Korea but only one matters. Your selective outrage is noted.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Moving the outrage goalpost now? Still no credible proof of genocide, I see. Quelle surprise.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:47 PM by ClarkUSA
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. Obviously. And thanks for showing your humanity to mental patients
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:48 PM by neverforget
and the soldiers who suffer from PTSD.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. Nah, I just showed my disinterest in red herrings and outrage memes.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #141
149. you can't even respond to the merit of my post. Your outrage is selective
because, according to you, Libya must be dealt with now while North Korea who has actual concentration camps like the Nazis did, don't even merit a mention by you as to the atrocities going on. Instead, you call a survivor of a camp a "mental patient". Wow. Just wow. That's pretty outrageous and callous to have such an attitude towards someone who went through hell.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #141
151. double post
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 10:07 PM by neverforget
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. I've given you links to concentration camps in North Korea. If you don't
read them, well that's your problem.

Where are the links to genocide in Libya?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #139
146. I asked for recent reports of genocide. You moved the goalposts.
<< Where are the links to genocide in Libya? >>

Google is your friend: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=lib...
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #146
153. So do you deny that concentration camps exist in North Korea?
That there are gas chambers? Does a news report have to be from yesterday to make it true?
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #77
174. Darfur, Democratic Republic of Congo, Eastern Burma, Somalia, Sri Lanka...
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. Syria
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Link?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
73. Link to the reports of genocide in Syria. There were many news reports of genocide in Libya.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:44 PM by ClarkUSA
What happened in 1982 is irrelevant.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. There were zero reports of genocide in Libya.
There were reports of massacres but no genocide.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Wrong. There were plenty. Google is your friend -->
Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It's laughable that you think there's a difference between "massacres" and "genocide". Shall we depend on your to determine when one turns into another? I'm glad the UN doesn't.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #73
94. "What happened in 1982 is irrelevant. "
To you. Not to the people of Syria.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Yes, because it is 2011.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
108. And the murderous Assad family is still in power.
But there is no oil there so no justifications will be needed for Syria.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #108
123. So? Where are the recent reports of genocide there? News stories I've read say 61 have died so far.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #123
160. Where is the link to Gaddafi saying he was going to commit genocide?
Where is the link to Gaddafi saying he was going to murder 200,000 people? I have seen that line parroted here so many times lately I lost count.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #160
166. "EU prepares for worst after Gaddafi 'genocide' threats" (23 February 2011)
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 10:59 PM by ClarkUSA
"EU prepares for worst after Gaddafi 'genocide' threats":
http://www.euractiv.com/en/global-europe/eu-prepares-wo...

"Gaddafi's Genocidal Buzzwords No Doubt Sent up Red Flag to Samantha Power" (March 24, 2011):
http://www.ips-dc.org/blog/gaddafis_genocidal_buzzwords...

<< Where is the link to Gaddafi saying he was going to murder 200,000 people? >>

I never said that, so let's not go moving that goalpost again. I provided proof of my claim that Gaddafi threatened genocide against his opposition. If this is not enough for you, along with the UN resolution, then I am not interested in what you have to say further, because I am only interested in people who are interested in the facts.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #166
177. No links as I suspected.
You refuse to accept any links about other dictators because it does not come directly from them. But you post links to Gadaffi's opponents claiming "genocide". What do you think they would say when they are trying to get military aid so they can seize power? They know what buttons to push to get aid from the West. And a link to someone in the U.S. government who "knows code words". He has WMD will be next. I knew you would not come up with anything.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #73
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
104. Burma.
Military dictatorship has been conducting an ethnic cleansing of minority populations, one of the most repressive governments in the world (in terms of freedom, they make Libya look like Sweden). At the moment I'm on my phone, so I can't link, but if anyone doesn't already know about Burma, the info should be readily available at sites like wikipedia or the CIA world fact book.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #104
128. Link to recent reports of genocide. Note that Pres. Obama has only been in office since Jan. 2009.
Also note that the UN agreed to a resolution and there was a 14 nation consensus.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #128
179. The UN argument, in this instance, is totally irrelevant
There are many, many UN policies in place condemning, reprimanding, or otherwise sanctioning the Burmese government http://www.altsean.org/Research/UN%20Dossier/UNGA.htm . The comparison of the UN resolution for Libya and the lack of one for Burma is irrelevant, though. Other nations never asked for a military resolution, or politicked enough to get one (and to be fair to Obama, this more England and France's fault than his). That's the whole point of this entire line of argument, isn't it? That nobody did a damn thing about a military junta far worse than Kaddafi's?

Things are still bad for the Karen people. The abuses are beyond anything Kaddafi ever dreamed of for the Libyan people. There were some sham elections, but the civil war still rages (not so different from the civil war in Libya, where there is ZERO defending of peaceful protestors, merely taking sides in a tribal conflict simmering for a century). You can google as well as I can, and if you're at all interested in making sure that the US and NATO are doing the right thing, you'll google it yourself.

Here's a couple, though, written since Obama's presidency:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/02/mac-mcclelland-...

And here's part of an interview with the woman who literally wrote the book on Burma, from last summer, which sums it all up quite nicely:
BUSCH: Lets talk about U.S. foreign policy for a moment. Given the necessary political will to act on the situation in Burma, what options, if any, could the Obama administration reasonably pursue to have a positive impact there?

MCCLELLAND: First of all, our government could lead the charge for a commission of inquiry into crimes against humanity in Burma. Everyone knows that the United States is in charge, in many ways, of the UN, and certainly of the Security Council. So, if we made a big deal of Burma, showed that this is a cause that we are behind and are willing to fight for, that would make a huge difference in comparison to what we are doing now, which is nothing. If a commission of inquiry were to be put into place then all this documentation sitting around would have to be looked at. I cant imagine that people would see all that and then decide that this is not a problem. The Obama administration actually wouldnt even have to do all that much work: it wouldnt cost anything. People wouldnt have to be moved around. The president would simply have to say, We need to do this thing, right now.

BUSCH: You make the point in the books closing chapter that when it comes to U.S.-China relations, economic concerns trump human rights complaints that Washington might otherwise press with respect to Burma. Yet in the case of Darfur, we saw something a little different play out. Why? What are the key determinants that distinguish these two situations?

MCCLELLAND: I think civil society plays a huge part. First of all, its about awareness: the public doesnt know about Burma, and if the public doesnt know about Burma then they arent putting pressure on politicians to talk about it. And so they wont, because its easier to ignore it.

The g word also plays a big part in this. Right now, we just have this vague idea about Burma that theres a dictatorship or something there, that they sound really mean, and that theres a lot of censorship. This is not enough for people to get behind, to pressure the United States to stand up to China and fight them on the issue. But imagine if someone threw it out there, called it what it was, and said, This is a genocide! These are the pictures. Here is the evidence. This is what happened in the case of Darfur. The exact same thing could happen in Southeast Asia. Theres no reason why it couldnt.

BUSCH: A host of possible actions, peaceful and coercive, have been articulated to pressure the Burmese junta to respect basic human rights and prepare the way for civilian rule. At the end of the day, other options having been considered, what do you think about possibilities for military intervention in Burma? Is this going too far?

MCCLELLAND: I dont think its going too far. In my opinion, peacekeepers are the answer. At least, theyre as close to the answer as were likely to get. The ideal solution, of course, would be that the country eventually evolves away from dictatorship and builds the necessary institutions for a democratic society and blah blah blah. In the meantime, someone needs to protect these fucking villagers in the east of Burma. Its absurd whats happening. I read exile newspapers. Every single day, there are reports of five-year-old girls being gang-raped, 4,000 new refugees pouring over the border into southern China, this sort of thing. It is so urgent. Perhaps not to you, perhaps not to me, but it is for the people who have to deal with it. The fact that this has been going on for so long, and that so few people know about it, is ridiculous.
http://burmadigest.info/2010/03/30/genocide-in-burma-2 /
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. where's the evidence?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:05 PM by middle distance
I haven't seen the evidence of this looming human slaughter that would have "stained the conscience of the world"... I would like to see some convincing evidence of such. Threats made by Gadafhi are not enough, if that were the case we would have bombed Iran long ago. Even Hillary admitted on Meet the Press that its hard to know what would have happened and take credit for an "averted crisis". This to me is shades of Bush's WMD.

And secondly, we are not engaged in a prevention of genocide. We are picking a side in a civil war. Not only was this action questionable constitutionally, it was contrary to the UN Charter, which calls for intervention only in cases of direct threats to international order. This is not an international conflict, it is strictly internal.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Ask the WH and the State Department if you're so interested.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. Can we ask the criminals if they are guilty or not now?
Link? Hahahahaha.

Remember to keep your elephant whistle handy. Sorry, don't have a link for the either. hahahahaha
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
78. Yawn. Meaningless rhetoric always bores me.
:boring:
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. So does playing "could happen".
Since you didn't provide a link I assume you are not for real.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. Yawn.
:boring:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #97
129. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. lol! You again? How nice of you to follow me around.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:39 PM by ClarkUSA
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #97
172. Lol, still using that smiley to cover up an inadequate intellect, I see.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
65. still no hard evidence
Sorry, threats and claims by various sources don't convince me. I want to see the evidence. If Gadafhi was firing on protesters from helicopters surely there is video of this somewhere. Where?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. Says who? You? You ignore Googled facts all you want. Who gives a shit? Not me.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:48 PM by ClarkUSA
What you think is unimportant to the UN, thank goodness.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. LOL at your acceptance of googled "facts"
Give me a break. Magic google is not a truth machine. Far from it.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. Yeah, it's far better to ignore the facts and embrace nonsensical rhetoric.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:14 PM by ClarkUSA
:sarcasm:
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #98
106. So do tell what the facts are please
And back them up with adequate evidence. And explain how we know there was genocide about to happen.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. I showed you the facts, which you promptly ignored and mocked. Don't waste my time further.
I'm glad that the people in charge of the UN are paying attention to the facts, even if you refuse to acknowledge them.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #113
140. you showed me allegations not facts supported by evidence
And statements by the UN Secretary and Hillary Clinton are not evidence, LOL.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #140
148. The UN obviously disagrees with you. I'll trust them over you any day.
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 10:03 PM by ClarkUSA
I also trust news reports from reporters and diplomats on the scene over your sneering denial any day.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #148
156. that makes sense
Trust politicians they never lie. Also, there aren't even any allegations of genocide. Its hyperbole. Even Hillary Clinton admitted on Meet the Press that we don't know what would actually have happened. If we don't know what would have happened then we went to war based on threats and some alleged killing of protesters or rebels (more likely armed rebels). If every instance of civil war or strife was grounds for humanitarian intervention we would be in untold numbers of countries. You have got to be naive if you believe there was wholesale slaughter on the ground in Libya. Hey why don't we bomb Israel every time they send gunships into Palestine.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
162. Why aren't we in Ivory Coast, then? Or Bahrain?
Please tell me why we're "turning a blind eye to atrocities" in THOSE countries.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Our" regimes in Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi, and Jordan
are also fragile and Egypt fell and the result is unclear.

There is a wee bit of cognitive dissonance in USA foreign policy.

I keep pushing this not that new book; "A Peace to End All Peace - The Fall of the Ottoman Empire" by Fromkin, a history of the region in the WWI decade.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. They are not "our" regimes. Furthermore, no other leader was open to slaughtering his opposition.
Amid protests and crackdowns across the Middle East and North Africa, Obama stated his case that Libya stands alone. "In this particular country, at this particular moment, we were faced with the prospect of violence on a horrific scale," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110329/ap_on_re_us/us_obam...

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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. And, I'll wager, there won't be many trying to do that in the near future. n/t
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. So POTUS Obama speaks bullshit ? Sad beyond belief.
Will horrific violence happen to Gadaffi loyalists?

I have never been a fan of iota of Gadaffi but he was a a cooperator in the War on Terror and his biggest source of arms and biggest oil market since 2003 was NATO.

The justification is magnified Gadaffi hyperbole, more Libyans will be killed and greater grudges created by the intervention than had the issues internal.

Libya was freer than our allies Saudi, Bahran, and UAE.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. Prove it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
91. History has already spoken. The outcome is obvious to anyone who can acknowledge the facts.
Countless lives have been saved from certain genocide by Gaddafi.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #91
131. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #91
176. You don't know what genocide is. Killing a lot of people is not the definition.
What ethnic groups are under threat of extinction? What about a religious group? There is no specific group of people at risk here and the use of the word genocide is ignorant, cynical, or flat out dishonest.

Why are you hanging on the use of a word you know has a different and very specific meaning? I think it is a sales tool which is disgusting because I believe the potential massacre should have been prevented but it raises the hair on the neck when such tactics of willful dishonesty to leverage emotion and history to foster support for this action when it should stand or fall on it's own merits.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. WWCD?
What would Clinton do?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. Who gives a shit? Clinton let genocide go on and on in Rwanda and continue in Bosnia.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
103. wwcd??
get a hummer from an intern......DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. They are "our" regines.
We provide foreign aid and military supplies to all of them.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. lol! That's not a credible definition.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
173. Must be easy to win arguments when you just have the opposition deleted.
By the new logic, you're a dictator and the "UN" should deal with you.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yes.
If Qaddafi is allowed to have his way Tunisia and Egypt will get overrun with refugees. The chance that the two countries would be destabilized would increase incrementally. Second, if the US stood back and allowed genocide in Libya, all of the strongmen that are on the ropes in the Persian Gulf would conclude that they can kill tens of thousands of their citizens in their desperate attempts to hold on to power. Not only is our effort in Libya right, it is the only moral choice. How I wish we had intervened in places like the Sudan, we did not and will now live with that moral failure.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. Viet Nam . . . . . Laos . . . . . Cambodia . . . . .
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. What is your point? We allowed Pol Pot to slaughter millions
in Cambodia because of our experience in Viet Nam. President Obama is not advocating regime change, the rebels have to do that on their own.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. ..
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joe_sixpack Donating Member (655 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. "On their own"....
That's funny right there.
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Because...
Because the world is round it turns me on
Because the world is round...aaaaaahhhhhh

Because the wind is high it blows my mind
Because the wind is high......aaaaaaaahhhh

Love is all, love is new
Love is all, love is you

Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry
Because the sky is blue.......aaaaaaaahhhh

Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh....
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
19. takes attention from the economic and political disaster unfolding in the USA nt
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. How so? Do you think Americans have that short of a memory?
As for disaster, no credible economist thinks the US is suffering from an "economic.. disaster".

Any political disaster is of voters' own choosing, given what's happening in WI, OH, MI, NJ, PA, and Congress. Perhaps buyers' remorse will make them think twice in 2012.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. Isn't there another housing takeover that is quickly approaching, not to mention speculation re
commodities boosting inflation for eating, then there's energy costs. So why would a credible economist deny that the disaster is over? State budgets have been wiped out with no real solutions within sight, but for cut more poor people and make them pay more taxes than GE. Inflation is being lied about or at best intentionally ignored IMO. But then I'm no economist, just poor. :7
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
99. Really? Not sure what you're talking about. Links?
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:17 PM by ClarkUSA
I'm far from rich but I have seen solid evidence of an economic recovery in my life.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
109. wag it wag it wag it wag it
YOU WAG THAT DOG AND WAG IT GOOD!!!!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. yes I can
ya can't stop hope..
the world wants change
and it is spreading around the world
if we let a dictator beat his people down
then all the dictators will want to beat their people down..

the world wanted to be saved, we gots to represent..
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Secretary Gates said on Meet the Press yesterday Libya was not a vital interest of the U.S.
And he is correct.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. But but but but . . . .
Wasn't the opposite of that in tonight's speech opener?

Dey need ta get their shit tageddah
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Gates wants to retire this year.
He did not want the Sec Def job after Bush left buy Obama asked to to stay. He only wanted to stay a year but Obama asked him to continue for at least another year. By telling the truth this is Gates way of telling Obama 'I'm out of here. Get someone else in here to tell lies and serve the MIC'.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
102. You're a facebook friend of his?
Cool that he let's you in on his private thoughts.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #102
112. I didn't know he was on facebook.
You must, tell us the link. I follow the news about politics. This has been covered over the last few years extensively. If you don't follow political news much I am surprised you post on a site like DU.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
43. We've got to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here.
Isn't that it? Or, was it the usual neocon/neolib rationale for using violence - picking up the white man's burden?
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
44. I found his speech extremely confusing and hypocritical
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 08:04 PM by PhillySane
First of all, he didn't even "read well" tonight. He flubbed a bunch of lines, and, frankly, I didn't feel his heart was in this one. Maybe he's still back in Rio (in his mind).
Second, what's this crap about Iraq was the wrong one, but this is the right one? Come one. Saddam was just as bad if not worse than Qaddafi. And what about those freedom lovin' Shiites in Bahrain? Don't we owe them anything? We just can't stand by while freedom lovin people are being oppressed, right Mr. Bush? I mean, Mr. Obama.
And third, I know we're handing it off to NATO, but, aren't we in NATO?

What kind of bullshit, double speak is that?
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. Same bs that says taxpayer money must funds these wars while rich politicians
cut social services. Man this admin is bankrupt!
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elias49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. You say 'we're in NATO'
but, really, we kind of ARE NATO.
In much the same way we ARE the UN.

Coalitions? Not so much.
No Russia. No China.
Meh.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. Yea, actually
don't we command it? Can people really be swallowing this crap?
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #44
82. two key phrases
Our interest: "maintaining the flow of commerce" and

"to enlarge the prosperity that serves as a wellspring of our power,"

He didn't go any closer to the word "oil" than that.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #82
115. Flow and Wellspring?
did he really say that? Freudian or what?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
67. Bill Kristol liked the speech. Nuff said. n/t
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
119. Bill's our man!
wait a second!
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
68. I had to work so missed the speech
are we fighting Libya because they hate us for our freedoms or because Saddam/Quadafi is torturing his own people or because of WMD or protection of American Assets with the coalition of the willing? And because our allies, peer pressured us into it? Because it is our job to carry the torch of freedom to zee oppressed peoples and they will greet us with flowers in the air and cheer in their hearts and minds? We must send aid to rebuild and to provide medical attention because if we bomb it we wreck it an if we wreck it we buy it and maybe when it's all over they will order a bakers dozen of those new! Improved! warplanes with all their oil money. KaFucking Ching.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Why are you untruthful?
You said you didn't hear the speech. Coulda fooled me.
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #76
87. It's these wars, they just run together and confuse me.
How can a public school educated American keep it all straight?

Why is that we are unable to elect a president that isn't a warmonger?

Does anyone even know who this guy is?

I haven't felt like this since Reagan was in office.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #87
121. Now don't go knockin' public education!
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 09:31 PM by PhillySane
We get enough of that from the other side!

edit-sorry had to spellcheck education
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Look at it this way...
This county, had a tyrannical leader, who was against democracy, put himself in power, and then, befriended Qaddafi, the original head-terrorist. How else would you get back at Bush?
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #121
168. I support public education-- I think it all should be public
but when I was a kid growing up in the 1970's, it wasn't exactly education's shining moment. I did have wonderful teachers and they likely look back to it as the good old days but one year we just filled in worksheets, another colored maps... The only reason I could read in kindergarten is because my Mom helped me figure it out. The best classes I had were when I went to middle school in Long Island (Patchogue). The teachers there were amazing--particularly in the interpretation of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet-- I ended up getting that coursework again in Pittsburgh when I moved and they totally whitewashed it and made it terribly boring and that was considered AP. My H.S. Social studies/ history was uninspired except for my 10th grade teacher (Mr. Cook!) who would sing songs about Montesque and Robespierre and made us role play the UN only taking the form of historical world leaders on deciding whether the Iranian Mullahs had the right to depose the Shah of Iran. My Science classes were extremely uninspired and insipid, the math not rigorous-- I never had Chemistry nor Geometry. But then, when I was in school we still had field trips-- we went into the city to museums and the theatre-- West Side Story as part of our Romeo & Juliet curriculum. We took a trip to Washington DC for about 4 days and walked our feet off.

So, now that the government is pushing for public school to be conducted like their military training schools (no, not West Point, I mean the ABC schools), perhaps it will be considered the golden age.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #168
178. I had a wonderful time in my one year in public school
I found myself that year.
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
88. O-I-L
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
90. Nnnnnnope. n/t
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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
101. Didn't watch it.
I just don't watch Obama anymore.
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Moondog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
110. Our, or His?
They're not the same now.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
138. If you can't see that its in our best interest to prevent a humanitarian disaster that could upset..
...the entire balance of the region, where 2 countries bordering Libya are dealing with revolutions of their own, then you really need to stop even following policy altogether. If you can't see that, then you are never going to get it.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. hypocrisy
Isn't it strange that when we kill people its national security and when others do it its a "humanitarian disaster"? Do you think we have killed civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan? Does that qualify as humanitarian disaster? Face it, we aren't there because we care about the people of Libya.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
142. If the oil falls in the wrong hands, it's not in
our best interests. It all makes sense to me now, however, I don't mind the saving lives part if that is true.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. European companies control most of that oil
And Ghadaffi has been playing ball with the West for nearly a decade now. If this were truly about western oil interests, we'd probably be sending troops in to help Ghadaffi.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
143. A Middle East with liberal democratic governments is in the United States' interest
But suggesting that will come out of Libya is probably a bit far fetched.

The bottom line is that like it or not, we are the world's policeman and the President's advisors convinced him that he could stop a genocide at a relatively low cost. Of course, we got into Iraq thinking it would be pretty low cost as well. Not that I'm comparing this to Iraq, but policymakers have often been wrong in predicting the costs of entering a conflict.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. we don't have to be
there is no reason we have to be the world's policeman. And furthering US interests isn't enough to justify military force.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. We've been the world's policeman for 65 years and the world has come to depend on it
If the US decided to drastically scale back its military commitments all of a sudden, shit would hit the fan.
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middle distance Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. if the US scaled back its military actions
the world would be a better place. and America would be a more prosperous nation. this idea that the world is dependent on our imperialism is insanity.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. If we found a way to do it gradually, I agree with you
But there are numerous examples of fragile peace held together by US military commitments or threat of US military commitment: China/Taiwan, South Korean/North Korea, Israel/Egypt just to name a few.

The US is going to have to scale down its commitments at some point or another because we can't afford to be the hegemon forever. But we need to do so in a manner that creates as little chaos as possible. For good or for ill, the United States foreign policy has a huge impact on the rest of the world, and any drastic changes will also have a huge impact.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #143
158. Well-said.
Lots of unknown variables. I have no idea whether our participation in the war will, on balance, benefit Libyans, the region, the US, or the world. I hope it does, but past experience makes my optimism very, very cautious.
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
157. Why do you hate America?
:sarcasm:
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philly_bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
159. In our best interest to contribute to UN & international efforts
like Libya ... but NOT to stay in unilateral wars like Iraq & Afghanistan.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
169. No, because it isn't. nt
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
170.  If you believe Obama,
it'll be good times for all.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
175. They.Have.Oil.
Next?
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