Is it bigoted to expect all people present at an event to

[Le Taz Hot]

speak the common language of those who are present? I'm really hoping that this doesn't turn into a flame war and that we can discuss this rationally. Here's the dilemma: You have a group of 12 people at a social gathering. Eight people speak English and Spanish, four people speak English only. Isn't it the polite thing to do to speak English so all gathered can be included in the conversation? Isn't holding a conversation in other-than-the common language akin to whispering as it's designed to keep people OUT of the conversation? That's my current interpretation but I want to entertain others' POV. (Remember, I'm speaking strictly in social situations here.)

Anyone want to wade in here or will this be too controversial? I really am looking for different perspectives here.

[marmar]

1. "akin to whispering as it's designed to keep people OUT of the conversation?"

Only for the extremely paranoid.

[Le Taz Hot]

7. You know, that was really unkind.

I asked an honest question.

[ieoeja]

26. And he gave you an honest answer.

They could be speaking in a language in which they are more comfortable. Or they may want to practice the language. Your assumption that it is only to keep you out of the conversation is a paranoid assumption.

Though I would have left out "extremely". I would say it is only slightly paranoid. Since it is certainly possible they don't want you hearing what they say. Had that happen in college once.

Four guys speaking in a foreign language while I walked behind them. One, surprised to find me there, asks, "you don't speak Arabic, do you?"

"No, I don't."

"Oh, good!" Then returns to his conversation.

So you could be correct. But you should not assume so.

[Hugabear]

49. It's unkind to think that people speaking other languages are talking about you

This is usually the "argument" that I hear from "English-only" bigots. "How do we know they're not talking about us"

[geardaddy]

37. +1

[Lucinda]

2. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I'd take it as an opportunity to learn a little bit of a new language.

[Brickbat]

3. I'm multilingual and have been in situations where I don't speak the primary language present in

social situations. If people are talking in front of me and I don't speak the language, I assume it's because they assume it's of no interest to me -- it's about people or situations I don't know. People shut out other people in conversations in the same language all the time.

[xchrom]

4. Why would I care if people speak to each other in a different language?

I have better things to worry about.

[Demit]

5. When are all 12 people at a social gathering ever in the same conversation?

Usually they break up into knots of people and have different conversations. If one person was addressing the group, sure, it would be polite to speak so everyone could understand. I think you'd have to describe the situation in more detail.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. Okay, let's cut the number in half.

Say 6 where 4 are bilingual and 2 aren't. It really is an honest question regardless of the inferences people here are trying to inject.

[Brickbat]

16. Even then, people have asides meant for only one or two people.

I still don't think it's rude.

[niyad]

6. okay, here is a different perspective. I grew up in the military, and there were many languages

spoken around me--hell, there were other languages spoken in my own home (my parents didn't realize how much I actually understood, and I chose never to enlighten them)

so, it never bothered me at all that there were different languages being spoken around me. it never occurred to me to let it bother me, it was simply a fact of life. I didn't figure that other people's private conversations were any of my business.

[Le Taz Hot]

9. I wasn't speaking of private conversations, but of

group conversations.

[Common Sense Party]

8. When I lived in South America, it was considered very poor manners

if I started speaking in English with a fellow North American when in the company of Spanish-speaking people. It's just a form of politeness to communicate, when in a group, in a way that the entire group can understand...if possible.

[Le Taz Hot]

12. That's my feeling but

I'm trying hard to understand the counter argument.

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. +1

[haikugal]

31. Exactly...

Poor manners. Are manners taught by the majority any more?

[Common Sense Party]

35. Maybe it is a generational thing.

That was 20 years ago that I lived in South America. Maybe the times have changed, and manners no longer matter.

[bobbolink]

50. But those are countries that tend to believe in common courtesy.

Therein lies the problem.

[Common Sense Party]

51. Ahhhhhhh.

Although I lived in Argentina. If you ask most South Americans, the Argentines aren't considered courteous. :0)

I thought they were wonderful...and yes, parents taught and instilled manners in their children. Granted, this was two decades ago, before the internets.

[KittyWampus]

10. only time this would be rude is the dinner table, IMO.

[Le Taz Hot]

15. That would be a better

scenario than the one I originally proposed. A dinner party would be the perfect scenario for this situation wherein an open exchange of ideas and conversation would be the normal interaction.

[NV Whino]

13. I was at a gathering where we entertained Russian musicians

It was like the tower of Babel – English, Russian, French, Spanish all being spoken. The important thing was, we communicated and had a good time doing it.

[JustAnotherGen]

14. Loving the French

Having extended family there and friends as well . . . My French language skills are not at par with an extremely well educated Parisian. Adding to this - my French language influence as a child was my great grandfather who was from Marseille (bit of a different dialect) and at least when I'm abroad and in a group - my French friends and family go in and out of French to English as I don't have the vocabulary of a native speaker. But that's the French! In spite of the belief of many Americans that they are rude - the reality is they aren't. Out of politeness and respect - they go "in and out of French" to make sure I'm included in dinner party conversations.

Now that said - IF I didn't feel comfortable (in the scenario you described) I would simply avoid being placed in the situation again but write it off as . . . the truly didn't mean to offend you or leave you out of the conversation.

[Le Taz Hot]

18. Thanks for the reply

and I certainly didn't mean to imply that it would be anyone's intention to offend, I guess I'm just asking what etiquette dictates.

[zorahopkins]

17. Celebrate Diversity

It seems to me that the diversity of languages at a social gathering should be celebrated -- not discouraged.

Let those who can speak English speak English.

Let those who can speak Spanish speak Spanish.

People should be free to speak to those that they want to speak to -- and in the language they choose to speak.

No one should ever feel any social pressure to speak in a particular language. That is just oppresive.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. At the expense of open interaction with all guests?

As a host I try to ensure everyone is included in whatever activity we are engaged in and, though I would never request anyone speak a specific language, my interest would be in ensuring that all guests were to be able to engage with other guests without feeling left out.

[blondeatlast]

25. With all due respect, you seem to be looking for reasons to be offended

and for validation of your offense.

If someone suggests that you should brush it off, you respond with a bit of contempt.

[Le Taz Hot]

32. I'm sorry you see it that way.

This was a situation I was in recently and I was wondering about the social acceptability of the given situation. I've been trying to be as diplomatic as possible as it can very easily turn into a conversation it was never meant to be. Perhaps you can show me where I was brushing someone off because I certainly did not mean to do that.

The only other question I have would be what offense I committed and if I haven't committed an offense how can I seek validation?

You see? This is exactly what I DIDN'T want to happen to this thread and somehow I knew it would go there. I'll ask the mods to lock.

[zorahopkins]

27. Control?

It seems to me that there is a very fine line between trying to ensure that all guests are able to engage with other guests without feeling left out and attempting to control which language your guests will speak.

If you invite people who only speak one language to a social gathering, and also invite other people who speak more than one language, then you have to allow the people who speak more than one language to speak whatever language they want to. Otherwise, it seems to me you become a controlling host.

[blondeatlast]

33. Well said. I'm reminded of the scene in "Animal House" where the "unacceptable" pledges

are introduced to the pledges of color and ethnicities other than white.

Try as I might, I can't shake that scene after reading this thread!

[Buzz Clik]

Not an uncommon situation -- let the language go wherever it goes.

People are most comfortable speaking their native tongue. Not a problem.

It would be less of a problem if English speakers actually learned another language.

[Le Taz Hot]

23. OK, well apparently I'm trying to

micro manage my events then, acting too much like the mother hen. Thank you for your rational response.

[Buzz Clik]

Our parties are always a blend of many internationals:

Italian, Chinese, Spanish, Arabic, and sometimes Portuguese. Sometimes, a group will cluster and start speaking their native language, and others may join if they speak it as a second or third language. If the group seems to be drifting away, it's easy enough for the host/hostess to reel them back by joining them and speaking English about a subject that should interest them, even if it's just food or drink.

[JackintheGreen]

43. Once more, with anthropology

You speak of an "event," but everything depends on context. Social situations evolve from moment to moment. Two Spaniards meet at a party and start chatting in Spanish? No problem. A small group is interacting as a group in a presentation format and two people share an aside in a 2nd language? That's a bit rude. But speaking amongst others in a second language is not so different from whispering or stepping aside for a private comment. In situations where that kind of behavior is rude, then so too is speaking in a second language: in either case the verbal choice is intended to obfuscate or provide cover. But in a simple social situation where people chat in small groups, circulate, change conversation partners, join into groups break apart then form new groups (you know, like a party), then this is perfectly reasonable behavior.

If, in one of these micromoments, a group of Spanish speakers is joined by a non-Spanish speaker who tries respectfully to join the situation and the Spanish speakers ignore him by continuing to speak in Spanish - knowing he doesn't understand - that's douchey.

Now, if this were in an official capacity - a school presentation, a business meeting, etc - a second language would be rude unless it was understood by context to be acceptable. But its really can be very tricky to figure out.

[geardaddy]

45. Agreed.

It is all about the context.

[CreekDog]

20. then how are they supposed to talk about you?

[Le Taz Hot]

22. Another unnecessarly

unkind remark.

[ZombieHorde]

24. Your description may or may not be rude. I think this would have to be examined case by case.

The motivation for switching to another language during a social situation is important.

[Iggo]

28. So 8 out of 12 speak Spanish...

...and the common language of this social gathering is...what again?

[blondeatlast]

36. +1. I was going to try to be polite, but the OP does seem to have an agenda

so al infierno con el!

(the hell with it)

[blondeatlast]

29. I live in Arizona--maybe that colors my perspective. Doesn't bother me in the least and I'm

CONSTANTLY surrounded by it with my work and social situations. I've had to deal with people who don't speak any English--and here's the thing--you find ways of communicating and everybody walks away a bit more enlightened and with a great story for the future...

[lame54]

30. How about the 4 people take a Spanish class

[Le Taz Hot]

34. Mods -- please lock.

I should have known better than to ask this type of question on DU -- there are just some subjects that are off limits for discussion.

[blondeatlast]

38. You aren't getting the answers you wanted--you're getting honest ones.

I'm sorry this hasn't gone your way, but if you want honest, GD is the place. Stroking--not so much.

[Bunny]

48. There has been a lot of discussion on this thread.

It just isn't going the way you want it to, so now you're crying foul. You want everyone to stand by you and express righteous indignation and they aren't. Without specifics, it's hard to tell what your guests were doing or what their intentions were. But trying to frame what, at most, appears to be rudeness as bigotry is pretty weird.

[Fearless]

39. People should be allowed to do what they want unless it impedes on others right to do the same...

Or harms themselves or another. As it does neither, people are certainly allowed to speak in whatever language they want. I'm sure the English speaking people now feel like the Spanish speaking people do when entering public offices, government agencies, and public schools. It's a good thing.

[Dash87]

40. Yeah, I think it's kind of rude.

If you're all talking in a group, and someone starts talking to a particular language suddenly that no one but the intended person understands, while still in a group. That's a little rude.

But if it's anything other than that, who really cares?

[Coyote_Bandit]

41. Let's assume I host a dinner party

that includes 2 bilingual speakers and 2 English only speakers. If the bilingual speakers exchange non-English comments loud enough to be overheard then the English only speakers may well feel uncomfortable and excluded - both of which are contrary to good social manners. If that happens in my home then the bilingual speakers will not be invited to return. Simple as that. Same thing if it's a party of 6 or 12. The only exception to that being if one of the bilingual speakers really wasn't capable to conversing in English (in which case one has to question whether they are in fact bilingual).

[AsahinaKimi]

42. True story ..

I was on a 3d Chat called IMVU. Now, I have seen plenty of rooms that list the chat as English Only.(My public room invites all languages.)So a friend invites me to a room, where there is a party going on. I checked the room to make sure there were no language problems, and the listing didn't seem to pose any restrictions. The room owner was there, and her moderators.



So we are dancing, laughing and having a good time. Some one comes into the chat room and see's my name. Asks me in Japanese "Nihonjin desu ka?"(Are you Japanese?) I said "Iie, Nikkei to Kankoujin no Amerikajin desu" (No, I am Japanese and Korean born in America). Immediately one of the mods says "WTF??, What language is that?" I said, Japanese.

She starts screaming (Basically all Caps) How this is America, and here you speak English, and people should stop speaking other languages because they are probably speaking about other people behind their back...etc. So, I said, no really, I can give you a translation if you want..


And she booted me out of the room. I have only ever been booted out of a room twice. Both for speaking Japanese. The last time for simply saying Arigatou. (Thank you)

This is how racist our country is.. and so now, I generally stay in my own chat room, or go to friends who own their own chat rooms.

[geardaddy]

46. That's F'ed up.

I've seen people in a foreign country get bent out of shape when natives in their own country speak their own language.

[fishwax]

44. why do you assume it's *designed* to keep other people out of the conversation

Why do you apparently assume that intent on the part of the people speaking Spanish? I know that you're not happy with some of the responses that you've gotten here; I think that particular choice of words might account for that response, and so I'm curious why you chose that.

[JonLP24]

47. Doesn't bother me

When I was in the military there were plenty of people from Puerto Rico and Mexican-Americans that knew Spanish. It would be interesting to listen to sometimes, a couple of friends would sometimes speak English and Spanish in the same conversation. Switch without realizing it, one of those friends accidentally started speaking in Spanish to me a couple of times.

[cbayer]

52. Locking

Locking at the request of the original poster

cbayer
DU Moderator