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So, we shot off 2.5 billion dollars in a blaze of Tomahawk missile glory.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 06:43 AM
Original message
So, we shot off 2.5 billion dollars in a blaze of Tomahawk missile glory.
The official replacement costs of those cruise missiles we fired off is 225 million. But that doesn't tell the whole story. By conservative estimates, for every dollar spent on actually purchasing a weapons system, another ten dollars is spent over the lifetime of that weapon, maintaining it, deploying it, storing it, etc.

Thus, 225 million dollars quickly becomes 2.5 billion dollars blown just on one missile barrage alone.

2.5 Billion dollars, that number seems familiar :think: Oh, yeah, that's the amount that Obama has proposed to cut from the LIHEAP program. Hope those people can stay warm next winter in the afterglow of that missile barrage.

2.5 Billion dollars, hmm, that would fully offset the proposed cuts to Federal special education programs for the next five years.

2.5 Billion dollars, hmm, that would offset the proposed cuts in HUD programs that help house the homeless, for the next 2.5 years.

2.5 Billion, hmm, that would provide a lot of housing vouchers for returning veterans. Of course that program is now scheduled to be gutted.

On and on this list goes.

But instead, we chose to fire off that 2.5 Billion dollars in a blaze of glory, and the only ones who are going to benefit from that brief blaze of glory are the fine folks at General Dynamics and Boeing.

Like they really need the help :eyes:
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Tonight, at the White House, there will be foie gras,
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 07:06 AM by MannyGoldstein
canaps, sumptuous wines, and delightful conversations with fabulous people. The music will be wonderful, and all will be right.

It's good to be the President.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. don't forget the servers -- this ain't no golden corral setup
:eyes:
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Can't wait to see the pics.
They always make me feel better. /sarcasm
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
War is profitable.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Greatness is surrendered, but very slowly.
We will...

freeze our poor,

starve our hungry,

deny healthcare to our ill,

and leave our children in ignorance

before we will willingly give up

the illusion of our greatness.




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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well... Yeah... But just think of the economic activity it creates
When they buy new ones!

/ sarcasm
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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. R'd
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. How many people will go without heating oil if the price of it is too high?
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 07:43 AM by originalpckelly
:shrug:

And how many special education students will be able to get to school if their parents cannot afford the price of gas, or the school district cannot afford to run its buses anymore?

And how many people will lose their jobs because there is less money bouncing around the economy to pay for things other than energy?

And in turn, how many people will be homeless then?

Most DUers are a part of the problem when it comes to petroleum, not the solution.

I can say that I don't even own a car, and I try to take an electric light rail when possible. And if I can't, I walk if possible. And only if I can't walk, only then do I take a cab or bus.

So eat me.

The rest of you probably drive fucking cars, and even a Prius needs gas.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. So am I interpreting what you are saying correctly?
That we should be going into Libya to protect cheap oil prices?

I hope that is not what you are saying.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. One of many reasons.
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 07:47 AM by originalpckelly
How many Americans will go hungry because the price of food is too high because tractors need diesel?

You think small, and not of all the things in America, and around the world, that are dependent upon this oil thing.

Until we end our dependence on oil, wars will happen. We're a bunch of fucking animals fighting over the scraps of meat left from the kill.

For me, I see a people who are in trouble, but in reality for the powers at be, I think they were worried about the price of oil.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Wow, what a very sick statement on your part
So I guess you were in favor of the Iraq war for the very same reason.

Sorry, I can't support war, or blood, for oil. Especially when there are better ways of fulfilling our energy needs than oil
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. So you can just snap your fingers and we'll be off oil?
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 07:52 AM by originalpckelly
And don't even get me started on the food and water wars that are going to happen in the years to come because of global climate change.

You think of us as separate from the animal kingdom, we're not. We are animals, every last human is an animal in the technical sense. And we are driven no less than any other animals in the world to fight with rivals for resources.

I am not in favor of this, but this is reality.

We say, "give peace a chance", but then go home from the peace rally in a petrol powered car.

You are literally causing the war every time you use petrol in large quantities. As I said before, even a Prius needs gas.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Snap my fingers, no
But bring our dependence on oil down to zero over the next forty years, yes, apparently it can be done.

<http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/... >

This is simply confirmation of previous studies going back to the late seventies. There was a study done in '79 that stated that if we went on a major, comprehensive program of switching to green renewables, we would have cut our dependency on oil in half by 2000, and that wasn't factoring in new tech developments.

Yes, technically we are part of the animal kingdom. Sad to see that so many people feel that gives us license to suspend the better parts of human nature and instead engage in war and killing to achieve our objectives when there is simply no need.

But again, let me ask, were you likewise in favor of blood for oil when it was Bush in the White House? Somehow I think not.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. "Next forty years"
:rofl:

Yeah, that's a wonderful time line. This needs to happen in a matter of years, not decades.

And I say this again, I'm not in favor of blood for oil, but every time you drive a car, if you do, you're the one who is in favor of blood for oil.

Don't be pissed at the people in power, they're just giving you what you want.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wow, hypocrisy much?
Not in favor of blood for oil, yet your very posts in this thread argue for just that.

And again, please stop dodging the question, were you in favor of our blood for oil war in Iraq? Or do I need to go to the trouble of searching the archives to prove your hypocrisy?

The people in power are giving me very little. Unlike you, who seem to be willing to sacrifice blood for oil, I'm investing in both solar and wind. What are you doing? Oh, yeah, cheering on blood for oil :eyes:
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I am not in favor of blood for oil.
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 08:15 AM by originalpckelly
But I think things like the inaction in Darfur demonstrate how oil is key in this situation for those in power.

And do you still drive a car? What kind of car? Does it get good gas mileage? And if it does, doesn't it still need gas?

You may be invested in those technologies, but until we find a way to make an electric car that's competitive with a gas one, we're screwed. The best thing to come along is the Chevy Volt, but unfortunately, it costs a fortune compared to a car in it's class. It should cost just below $20,000, but it's fucking $40,000+. Twice as much is not realistic.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Your own words on this thread belie your claim,
And your words from years ago damn you as a hypocrite.

Where was this precocious notion of yours that we need to fight to preserve our oil supply back then? Where was your "We're a bunch of fucking animals fighting over the scraps of meat left from the kill." five years ago. Where was your pro-war stance then?

Nothing but a damn hypocrite, changing your tune when the letter behind the president's name changes.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. What?
You obviously have no idea who you're talking to, but that's cool. Kind of cute in a way.

No, my dear, I do not support Obama, and I do not support this action because I support Obama. I have gone to great lengths to say this.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. Hmmm I hate to see you two going at it...
both of you are on my list of smart well informed DU'ers, and I think in different circumstances you wouldn't be fighting about this.

This is a tough call in Libya. Both of you have good points. The truth is we should have just gone in there and bumped off Gadhafi and his kid and let the Libyans sort it out from there.

I can't abide this attack. We can't afford it and there were better solutions.
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Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. if the US had smart voters and smart representatives instead of dumb voters and
psychopathic "leaders" who have the foresight of a piece of radioactive sludge

we'd be 2 yrs away from independence, based on your 40 Yrs. 1973 (first oil embargo)+ 40=2013

But here we are

Someone needs to start a round of "Guess which Libyan city will get the first US base"

The last time a (D) "helped" people they were bombed for 78 days and then the US built a base called Camp Bondsteel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bondsteel So you'll forgive some of us that tend toward skepticism.

Don't Forget Yugoslavia - By John Pilger (the "genocide" that wasn't)
http://futurefastforward.com/military-intelligence/289-...



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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. I've been hearing that canard for 40yrs....it won't happend until there isn't any more left....
hell even the GOP thinks fossil fuel is a renewable resource. :argh:
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. All fossil fuels are actually a form of solar power, but it just takes a long time to work.
Actually, all known power comes from stars. Just about anything does.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. But here you are, arguing against the war in Iraq,
Arguing against a draft, arguing against blood for oil.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

Ooo, and the hypocrisy in this one is especially precious.
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

You are nothing but a damn hypocrite, damning blood for oil, damning war, claiming to be anti-war when Bush was in power, but now that it is Obama raining down death and destruction, you are in complete support of war, and think that blood for oil is at least a necessary thing, if not a good thing.

Nothing but a damn hypocrite, damned by your own words.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I kind of told you that.
I'm just pointing out reality.

Unless we get off of oil, these wars will continue.

That machine is not just a few people in power, it's a whole nation, and even a whole world.

Don't take realizing that is true as support for it.

And do you drive a car? I sincerely doubt you've got a big ass solar or wind powered car, or even an electric one, if you do drive.

Just sayin'.

Actions speak louder than words.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
10. 2.5 billion is precisely what Obama wants to cut from LIHEAP. Ironic.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. Wow Still pushing that line....its excess unused
Obama said he called for significant increases to the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program earlier in his presidency when energy prices were spiking. But he said the program can be cut because energy prices have stabilized. LIHEAP is currently funded at $5.1 billion and Obama's fiscal year 2012 budget request calls for cutting the program by $2.5 billlion.

"Energy prices have now gone down but the cost of the program has stayed the same," Obama said during a press conference Tuesday. "Lets go back to a more sustainable level."

Obama signaled that he would be willing to reconsider the cuts if energy prices spike again. "If it turns out there is another huge energy spike, then we can revisit it," he said.

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Excess unused??? You have to be shitting me!
That is a ridiculous statement.

To say that there was an increase in funding due to an increase is fuel prices is one thing.

But to say that there is unused money in the program is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. And you bought that line of shit?
I know 3 people who are about to lose their LIHEAP. All seniors. All live at below the poverty level.

In my state LIHEAP funds will now go only to people living at a minimum of 185% BELOW THE POVERTY LEVEL.

Yeah Obama's a real fucking hero.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Well when they die off, I suppose you could claim that there is an excess in a sense.
Maybe that's what the poster meant?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. LMAO... man I hate to laugh
but that was pretty funny in a dark humor kind of way...

We're at the point of laugh or cry.

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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
18. Except that it won't cost an extra $2,275,000,000
If the missiles are replaced one-for-one, then the annual maintenance costs for the missile inventory would be the same because the annual missile inventory would be the same.

I agree with you that the fiscal policy of the nation is way out of whack, though. Cutting HUD and special ed and veterans assistance to fun tax cuts on UNEARNED income is shameful!
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. Does that include the F-15 fighter jet that crashed to the ground?
Bet you didn't hear about that on msnBS.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Nope, just the missiles
Another few hundred million down the drain on that one.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Luckily the pilot ejected and got out ok. The military shot at and wounded the Libyan landowner
as he approached to help the pilot.
"No hard feelings" was his sentiment but I'm sure that looked just fabulous to the rest of the "Arab world"
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
51. Actually 6 cilivans were shot and a young man will have leg amputated
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 08:24 PM by Tx4obama

Excerpt:

But a rescue mission was mounted for pilot number two, and this is where what could have been comic turned sour. Osprey aircraft came in, all guns blazing, assuming - as the American military tends to do that this was hostile territory.

"We are disturbed about the shooting because if they'd given us a chance we would have handed over both pilots," said Colonel Sayid. "This shooting created panic."

Worse than that, several bystanders were injured, amongst them 43-year-old Hamad Abdul Ati. We found him in Jala hospital in Benghazi, with multiple shrapnel and bullet wounds, and a broken arm. He didnt understand why the Americans had been so aggressive in their rescue mission.

"We consider that whoever is shot down or a prisoner of war, we should save him and hand him over," he told me from his hospital bed. "But another plane shot at me and Hamdy my son. I have shrapnel in my hand."

Hospital staff told us that 20-year-old Hamdys injuries were far worse, and he was undergoing an operation to amputate part of one leg.

Article and video: http://www.channel4.com/news/third-night-of-bombing-in-...


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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Ok then you have some more up to date info. Even worse but not unexpected.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. 27.9 million for the F-15 not including fuel,
pilots, training, launch.. etc, etc. That's 27.9 million just for the plane.
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WatsonT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. But we got to see some really cool explosions.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
23. We have families living in cars down the block, but we're ....
...acting Nanny state to Libya.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
31. Those missiles were old inventory. We paid for them a decade or more ago.
Edited on Wed Mar-23-11 09:34 AM by slackmaster
Saying that the money could have been spent on something else NOW is nonsense.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Oh -- well, that makes it all right then
:eyes:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. I didn't say that made it all right
Please THINK when you read.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. And they won't be replaced?
Thanks.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. That decision will be made by leaders that WE ELECT
HTH
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. Please. I have yet to feel like I've been listened to by any leader I helped elect.
Including this one.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. There will be more death and destruction in Libya
because of the intervention and repercussians for along time.

The attack on Libya was idiotic and by no means "humanitarian".
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Hell, just wait until we get to G13 in the arms catalogue!
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. I wonder if they sold Naming Rights to each missile if they could get some $$$$ ?
There goes the Comerica Tomahawk!! Launch the Exxon Cruise!! They could require all the CorporateNews folks to use 'proper' names.

Hell ... they could cover 'em with sponsor decals - like a NASCAR car. :evilgrin:

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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
41. and here at home, we're THE WORSE for it
:wtf:
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. Yup no money to actually help people, but the war machine gets a big fat fucking pay day.
:grr: :argh: :nuke:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. You mean the humanitarians at General Dynamics weren't donating the killing devices for free?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
49. Could you provide some sort of...
corroboration of those presumed costs?
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