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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:38 AM
Original message
Neo-cons and the Libya intervention. This isn't pretty.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 05:42 AM by Catherina
US neo-cons urge Libya intervention
Signatories to the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) demand "immediate" military action.
Jim Lobe Last Modified: 27 Feb 2011 16:00 GMT


Independent Senator Joseph Lieberman wants the US to arm Libyan rebels


In a distinct echo of the tactics they pursued to encourage US intervention in the Balkans and Iraq, a familiar clutch of neo-conservatives appealed Friday for the United States and NATO to "immediately" prepare military action to help bring down the regime of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and end the violence that is believed to have killed well over a thousand people in the past week.

The appeal, which came in the form of a letter signed by 40 policy analysts, including more than a dozen former senior officials who served under President George W. Bush, was organised and released by the Foreign Policy Initiative (FPI), a two-year-old neo-conservative group that is widely seen as the successor to the more-famous or infamous Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

Warning that Libya stood "on the threshold of a moral and humanitarian catastrophe", the letter, which was addressed to President Barack Obama, called for specific immediate steps involving military action, in addition to the imposition of a number of diplomatic and economic sanctions to bring "an end to the murderous Libyan regime".

...

The usual suspects
Among the letter's signers were former Bush deputy defence secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Bush's top global democracy and Middle East adviser; Elliott Abrams; former Bush speechwriters Marc Thiessen and Peter Wehner; Vice President Dick Cheney's former deputy national security adviser, John Hannah, as well as FPI's four directors: Weekly Standard editor William Kristol; Brookings Institution fellow Robert Kagan; former Iraq Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman Dan Senor; and former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy and Ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman.

...

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/02/2...




Massacre in Yemen: and the deal on Libya
Yemen is a different story, I guess. I don't see the Western crocodile tears being shed. I don't see sudden indignation and the sudden discovery--was in Libya--that the leader there is a dictator. US/Saudi Arabia want Salih in power no matter what. Notice that the story is being played down in US media. Notice that it was US that requested that Arab countries (Qatar, UAE and Jordan) play a role in Libya. I mean, what do you think of a resolution that requires the intervention of the likes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, and Jordan to secure "democracy" for Libya? This is a sham. Don't buy that Saudi Arabia is acting without US support in Bahrain. Who are they fooling. Saudi Arabia is not Israel: it does not act without prior knowledge, nay request from, of the US. This is all coordinated. I wish to revise something I said about the shameful coverage of Aljazeera (or lack there of) in the case of Bahrain. I don't believe that the decision on Bahrain was purely a deal between Saudi Arabia and Qatar: i strongly believe that it was a US-Qatar deal as well. Yesterday, the narrator reported a story on Bahrain on Aljazeera: it concluded bizarrely by calling for "dialogue" between government and opposition. That makes one wonders: why does not Aljazeera hold the same stance on Libya? The plot thickens. Saudi Arabia and US and Israel are trying to abort the Arab uprisings one by one: the charade in Libya is not to enhance the Arab change movement: it is aimed at undermining it everywhere.
Posted by As'ad AbuKhalil at 7:16 AM



It's all out there too. How did we miss this? Max Boot, one of the signatories of both PNAC/FPI memos, was calling for direct support to the rebels in the form of special operations troops on the ground in Libya, "the same combination that proved so effective in toppling the Taliban in 2001 and ousting the Serbs from Kosovo in 1999."


Qaddafi Can Still Be Ousted, but Only if We Act Now
Max Boot 03.16.2011 - 10:44 AM

...

Yet even now we can still keep the rebellion alive. We should pursue a no-fly zone combined with an enclave strategy centered on Benghazi.

The key military fact about Libya is that it is composed mostly of flat desert; this is where some of the most notable tank battles of World War II were fought pitting Rommel against Montgomery. There is nowhere for conventional forces to hide outside an urban area. To take Benghazi, Qaddafis forces would have to expose themselves. They would, in other words, become easy targets for air strikes by American, British, and French aircraft operating from a combination of aircraft carriers (the USS Enterprise is in the Red Sea, a days steam away from Libya) and from bases in southern Europe; we could even establish a forward operating base at a major Libyan airbase south of Tobruk that is currently in rebel hands.

Thus we could proclaim that we will recognize the National Transition Council ensconced in Benghazi and use our airpower to prevent Qaddafis forces from entering the capital of Free Libya. This would buy a precious commodity time. We could use that time to train and arm the anti-Qaddafi forces. With the rebels secure behind a curtain of NATO airpower, they could organize a proper army and eventually mount a major offensive to finish off Qaddafi once and for all.

This would require a fairly limited commitment on our part that involved primarily airpower and some Special Forces working in cooperation with local rebels: the same combination that proved so effective in toppling the Taliban in 2001 and ousting the Serbs from Kosovo in 1999. Such a strategy is eminently feasible, but it has to be implemented right now. The time for dithering is past if there is to be any chance of saving the Libyan revolution and incidentally, rescuing Obamas plummeting reputation.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/03/16/qaddafi-ca...


See how many names you recognize here. Again, from the FPI:

Foreign Policy Experts Urge President to Take Action to Halt Violence in Libya
PrintShareThis
March 15, 2011 | Open Letter

The Honorable Barack Obama
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC

March 15, 2011

Dear President Obama:

Regrettably, the international community has yet to take serious action to prevent a moral and humanitarian catastrophe in Libya and the Libyan opposition is now on the defensive. As forces loyal to Muammar Qaddafi push eastward, we are concerned that the brutal and indiscriminate tactics of government forces could lead to additional civilian casualties.

On Saturday, the Arab League endorsed Libyan opposition calls for a no fly zone. We call on you to urgently institute a no fly zone over key Libyan cities and towns in conjunction with U.S. allies. We also call on you to explore the option of targeted strikes against regime assets in an effort to prevent further bloodshed. The United States should also immediately recognize the Libyan National Transitional Council and take all necessary actions to support their efforts to unseat the Qaddafi regime.

In your inaugural address two years ago, you said this: "And so to all other peoples and governments who are watching today, from the grandest capitals to the small village where my father was born: Know that America is a friend of each nation and every man, woman and child who seeks a future of peace and dignity, and that we are ready to lead once more."

Today the United States and its allies should stand with the men, women and children of Libya who seek a future of peace and dignity. The situation in Libya in the coming days will not just impact the Libyan people. As protests continue against repressive regimes around the world, the message currently being conveyed by our inaction is that killing and repression will go unpunished and are the best option for despots seeking to postpone reform.

For the sake of our security as well as Americas credibility with people who seek freedom everywhere, we ask you to act as quickly as possible to ensure that the people of Libya and the world know that we are willing to back up our principles with action.

Sincerely,


Fouad Ajami
Ash Jain
Randy Scheunemann

Stephen E. Biegun
Ken Jensen
Gary J. Schmitt

Max Boot
Robert Kagan
Dan Senor

Ellen Bork
Lawrence Kaplan
Henry Sokolski

Paul Bremer
David Kramer
Whit Stillman

Scott Carpenter
Irina Krasovskaya
William Taft

Elizabeth Cheney
William Kristol
Marc Thiessen

Eliot Cohen
Tod Lindberg
Daniel Twining

Seth Cropsey
Michael Makovsky
Kurt Volker

Thomas Donnelly
Ann Marlowe
Peter Wehner

Michele Dunne
Cliff May
Ken Weinstein

Eric Edelman
Joshua Muravchik
Leon Wieseltier

Jamie Fly
Michael O'Hanlon
Rich Williamson

Reuel Marc Gerecht
Martin Peretz
Damon Wilson

William Inboden
Danielle Pletka

Bruce Pitcairn Jackson
John Podhoretz

http://www.foreignpolicyi.org/content/foreign-policy-ex...


And then if you have time go to http://cablesearch.org / put in Libya Benghazi and then Libya. You'll be busy for a whole week.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. oh cripes, you need to post a warning about that picture
1st thing in the morning.. :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I'm sorry. I had the same reaction n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
103. Deleted message
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes....thanks for reminding us that the "usual suspects" are still pulling the strings.
It's sad to see so many here on DU this a.m. who are in that camp of the MIC. I remember when Bush kept saying our "theaters" when talking about "bringing Democracy to the ME," and if you ever saw any of the Heritage, AIPAC and Council on Foreign Relations, et al conferences broadast on C-Span II, they also would mention the "theaters of staging." So, now we are in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and now Libya. And, who is paying for this? Teachers, Firefighters, Nurses and the rest of us left after the Banksters crashed the global economy. Still, there is money for war and more wars. And the same "Powers that Be" run it all, own the media and we are no better off than we were with Bush.

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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. It makes me very sad too. Disgusts me for several reasons especially
supporting a war by presidential decree that doesn't even have a congressional overstamp. This isn't an NFZ, this is a full-scale war. We're being played like a fiddle.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. How clever. How deep. By your logic, that would make you a neocon fan. Thanks for clarifying n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. All those people supporting this madness will soon learn
what they are supporting. They are bombing Libya and calling Gaddafi the terrorist.
Give me a fucking break please. The real terrorists are Britain, France and the US - so what's new.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Nothing's new. I'm shell-shocked by how brazen they've been n/t
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
58. more shock and awe?
just what the world needs. :grr:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
104. Deleted message
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. "The real terrorists are Britain, France and the US"
tells us all anyone needs to know. Thank you for making it so perfectly clear.
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JoseGaspar Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. It is a simple question, really...

What nation has killed more people in the Middle East over the last twenty than all other nations combined... by far... the vast majority of them, "innocent civilians"?

It wasn't the Iraq of Saddam Hussein, or Qaddafi's Libya. It wasn't Iran. It wasn't even Israel.

Who was it?
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silver10 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
79. +1
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
101. +100
:popcorn:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
38. +1
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
45. +1
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
83. All those supporting this madness are fine with that.
Never saw a war in the ME they couldn't love.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. BOHICA
(Bend Over, Here It Comes Again)
More WAR!
Champagne Corks are popping in the boardrooms of the Armaments Industry and Republican HQs today.

Even if you are an Obama partisan,
you should regret this decision.
He doesn't need to get Bogged down in another ME conflict.
After the "New WAR Smell" wears off,
this will be a hard sell in 2012.

Unless you are a Republican strategist, or heavily invested in the Armaments Industry,
there are very few Good Outcomes from the steps taken yesterday,
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. It's like Reagan and his men never left
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFves5XqBJU
"In the general mood of self congratulation there was barely a mention of Libyan casualties"

Defa vu. Cake walk. Flowers and roses.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. Lybia Oil -
I have been doing some research this morning: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TBF/41 (many articles throughout the threads - thought they might be of interest to you).

Neo-cons, Neo-libs, Europeans ... everyone wants this oil secure.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Oil control & a good base to quash further Arab revolutions. Notice our partners
in this venture. The Arab ones are all monarchies with Saudi Arabia being at the top of the terrorist list. Last night they shot live ammo at peaceful protesters.

Admiral Mike Mullen just announced planes from Qatar are moving into position near Libya, according to Reuters.

Earlier he warned this no-drive zone they're enforcing comes with no guarantees. They're preparing us for boots on the ground. Wesley Clark pointed out this morning, on CNN, that the UN resolution authorizes anything they want short of occupation and that not only are feet on the ground ok, but there are already European feet on the ground providing *advice*. You know what's going to happen now? Many Libyans who were fighting Gaddafi are going to go back to Gaddafi's side, as they warned they would do, if Libya came under foreign attack. They warned us.

Al Jazeera just announced that Amr Moussa just called for an emergency meeting of the Arab League saying they supported a no-fly-zone, not an attack with Tomahawk missiles killing innocent civilians. Thanks for your link TBF. I'm going to read it in a few minutes.


UPDATE 1-Mullen says stalemate a possibility in Libya
Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:10pm GMT

WASHINGTON, March 20 (Reuters) - The top U.S. military commander on Sunday said the end-game of military action in Libya was "very uncertain" and acknowledged it could end in a stalemate with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, told CBS' "Face the Nation" program that the military mission has a clear, limited scope. But he could not predict how long the action might take or what its outcome might be.

Asked if it could end in a stalemate with Gaddafi, Mullen replied: "That's a possibility." (Reporting by David Morgan; Editing by Paul Simao)

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFN2022755920...



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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
37. The military is our jobs program (and the only one at that) -
I expect you're right about "boots on the ground". Someone's got an election coming up after all ...
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
100. Yea, jobs program.
I'll bet not one of these neo-con cocksuckers has a single solitary son or daughter in the military. Want a job my son, go to work for Wall street. And don't even think about joining the military. After all, you could get a little uncomfortable. These sons of bitches.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. They want this OIL in the tanks of Western Oil Corporations.
"And everyone has a share!" shouted Milo as the American bombers began dropping bombs on their own base.


Interesting Note:
The above reference was a remembered excerpt from Joseph Heller's novel, Catch-22,
which was about American troops stationed in.....LIBYA!
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. They sure do -
it is noted that at about 7:00 am yesterday morning Mr. Gaddafi again mentioned that he'd like to do block contracts with China, India and Brazil - which is outside the normal bidding process.

It appears that did not go over well.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. This story was buried...
...but apparently the "peaceful protesters" have planes and anti-aircraft artillery. They shot their own plane down yesterday by accident. That doesn't exactly sound "peaceful" and "defenseless" to me. It smells like we are getting fed a line of bull in the latest string of nation-building adventures in the middle east.

I also don't like that there are so many "anti-American if you don't support this" and so much ridicule of those who are skeptical. It sounds to me like a concerted effort to gin up support - particularly when you factor in the spin that this is to protect "peaceful" people. Peaceful and defenseless people don't have the kind of artillery these "protesters" have.

Who is supplying them?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Some of the equipment was captured from military depots, some brought over
by military units that defected. Much of that was defective and in bad repair because Gaddafi never trusted or equipped the Libyan Army so one of our good friends stepped in, Saudi Arabia, and has been providing more. Who knows who else is providing weapons now.

Are you watching Al Jazeera? The Arab League is angry at what's going on and calling an emergency meeting & Russia is calling for an immediate stop to this indiscriminate shelling. We already know what the African Union's position is.

Danish M-16s armed with missiles are taking off as I type. This is madness. Again. Deliberate madness.
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silver10 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
80. +1
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. So THIS is the BIPARTISANSHIP I keep hearing about!
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 09:38 AM by Shagbark Hickory
Obama brought the two parties together. Well I'll be.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. It struck again. The same cast of characters. War, more war! Less jobs! n/t
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. plenty of jobs if you'd like to go to the ME to fight on Hamburger Hill
:grr:
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Fuddnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
84. I think it's called Hamburger Dune now.
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WingDinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. Hummus hill. W/ red peppers.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 05:50 PM by WingDinger
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
86. Lots of jobs for mercenaries, Blackwater et al.
No one could call them U.S. 'boots on the ground'. No one asked when they swore the U.S. would not put boots on the ground 'but what about our private armies'??? And they knew no one would ask.

And a 'peace-keeping force' is not a 'combat force'. You have to watch the words they use, and the ones they leave out.

I'll be happy to be wrong, but I have a feeling this will be a long 'peace-keeping war'! Sorry for the Orwellian language!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. if this was about the oil, i cant see us working against quadaffi(?) but for him. nt
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Stop it with facts and stuff.
You're harshing their vibe.


If this was all about oil, we would ABSOLUTELY BE SUPPORTING QADDAFI.

He represented stability; the rebels do not.


But that won't stop the non-logical thinkers here amongst us.


I wonder if they actually believe that the western companies that have oil contracts in Libya are now happy that a new regime just might kick them all out on their ears, and go with PetroChina, for instance?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Real facts are staring at you in the OP. Any comments or just childish insults? n/t
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. Just because PNAC is for this doesn't automatically mean they got it wrong.
Maybe for the wrong reason, which you automatically assume is the same one this administration is using.


But your opinion on the matter is just that, your opinion. If you think that PNAC signatories are still running this country, there is nothing I can do to dissuade you from that.

But any reason to bash this administration is valid, so carry on.


If you felt insulted, I cannot control your feelings, either.

Sorry.

Everyone that disagrees with you must be an insult.

Got it.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. Deleted message
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. "He represented stability; the rebels do not." u.s. is cheering protest in arab nations
iran is cheering protest in arab countries. both, fro different reasons. but they are both cheering

this was said by isreal dude. makes sense.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. The US isn't cheering at protests in the arab nations, quite the contrary
Chomsky clears a few things up about that cheering in this short 2 part video. He also talks with great wisdom about Libya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II9lo--U550

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKHKDudUndY

And the Arabs aren't stupid. Not in Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iran or Iraq where you'll note we cleverly made no mention of the protests there and the bloody reprisals against the protesters last week. Syria and Saudi Arabia have been shooting protesters all week. Bahrain and Yemen are shooting them from the air. Barely a bloody word and then only weak ones. Heck, we're bombing in Yemen and having a hearty laugh with Saleh that he'll just say he's the one doing the bombing.

Here is the response of the Egyptian revolutionaries to the US for all the cheering. Tunisian revolutionaries had the same response.

It wasn't all fun and games this time around. Egypt, once one of our busom buddies in the Middle East, now has an entirely different view on United States foreign policy. To them, the US took too long to support the protests, effectively making them Mubarak supporters in democracy's clothing. If we want the Pharonic love, we better be ready to say sorry and play nice.

"There was an invitation for members of the coalition to meet Secretary of State Hillary Clinton," the January 25 Revolution Youth Coalition issued in a statement on their Facebook page, "but based on her negative position from the beginning of the revolution and the position of the US administration in the Middle East, we reject this invitation."

In a separate statement released to an Egyptian newspaper, the coalition, made up of six youth activist groups, also said, "the US administration took Egypt's revolution lightly and supported the old regime while Egyptian blood was being spilled." They went on to elaborate that Clinton was not welcome in Egypt "because the U.S. administration long supported Mubarak's corrupt, dictatorial regime financially, politically, and morally." They expressed no interest in meeting with her until the United States makes a formal apology to the Egyptian people for their support of Mubarak's regime. "The Egyptian people are the masters of their own land and destiny and will only accept equal relations of friendship and respect between the people of Egypt and the people of America."

A spokesman for Clinton had no immediate response.

...

http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/hillary-clint... /
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. opinion piece. i havent gotten into this whole argument because people see it differently
depending on the the perspective they chose.

i dont necessarily agree with the opinion that the u.s. did wrong during this time.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. This situation is far too complicated to take issue with how you see it
This is one of those cases where I understand different reasoned opinions. I appreciate your willingness to consider the information.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. i totally agree with you on this. so many individual piece upon individual pieces
to try to create the whole....

thank you catherina. what i have concluded, too.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
88. Israel dude was wrong. The U.S. was not cheering
the Arab revolutions. Were you following this from the beginning?

Joe Biden: "Mubarak is not a dictator"
Obama: Mubarak is a good friend and ally of the U.S.
Hillary Clinton: 'The situation in Egypt is stable' or so she had hoped at the time.

Two of their favorite Dictator allies have been toppled. At least six more are being protested by their own people and the U.S. still supports them.

Tunisia was a shock, the people overwhelmed them and they could not stop the revolution. The Tunisians now have warned the U.S. to stay out of their business, their country is free and it is 'not for sale' any more. They have refused to meet with Hillary Clinton because of the U.S. support for Ben Ali. They want, and should get an apology.

Egyptian revolution followed quickly, the neocons didn't have time to move in. The U.S. continued to support Mubarak, tried to get the people to give him til the end of the year. But again, the people prevailed and the U.S. had no choice but to accept it. However they tried to install their favorite Egyptian torturer, Solemon. The people were having none of that. Egyptians also refusing to meet with Hillary Clinton because the U.S. continued to support Mubarak regime until they had no choice. They too want an apology for the years of suffering the U.S. aided and abetted.

Only in America does ignorance of the facts of our horrendous foreign policy still exist. No one trusts this country anymore unless they are a dictator or a puppet like Iraq's government.

Either we change our policies, or as Hillary herself admitted, 'we cannot get our message across anymore' she meant of course, 'our propaganda'. The Empire is crumbling as people across the globe for so long living under U.S. backed dictatorships are rising up and taking their countries back. Not just from their brutal, U.S. backed dictators, but from Western, Colonial influence.

We are not helping them to be free when we support out own brutal government's wars and torture and support for dictators. WE have to force changes in OUR government's violent and corrupt foreign policies or we will be left behind. The world is moving forward and leaving us behind, and there will be prosecutions of war criminals in the future. Victims never forget. We have not learned that lesson yet.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. yes, i was following. i was following enough to know the sequence of those quotes
and then the follow up as the protesting and situation escalated. you present a very bias presentation of what actually happened. which is why i dont really bother with political discussions on du.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. It is not my interpretation. It is the recent interpretation of the
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 05:37 PM by sabrina 1
revolutionaries in both Tunisia and Egypt themselves in messages delivered to Hillary Clinton when she recently visited both countries. If you are saying that the people of these two countries who fought and many of whom died, to liberate their countries are biased, then you will have to tell THEM that. They were there, for the last several decades and right up to the final victories. Neither you nor I were there nor can we possibly understand what our support for Mubarak and Ben Ali did to their lives for so long.

If you want their quotes, I can provide them for you.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
97. Who do you think is supporting the rebels?
The US has another puppet waiting behind the scenes - all that they need is a few special forces to infiltrate the rebels to provide the new Qaddafi a fig-leaf of legitimacy.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. Most of the oil is in rebel held land. The country will probably be split into two soon
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:03 AM by Catherina
The rebels promised to generously reward their friends unlike Gaddafi, who a year ago, talked about nationalizing even more of Libya's gas and oil interests.


...

One of last years biggest shocks was Gaddafis suggestion to nationalize the countrys oil and gas interests, a consideration that seemed to echo the early days of the Libyan revolution when the industry was partially nationalized. These words set the stage for the National Oil Corp. to renegotiate long-term contracts in Libyas favor with major oil companies operating in the country, such as Italys ENI, the United States Occidental, PetroCanada, Frances Total and Spains Repsol, St John added.

...

Within the Libyan government there is resistance to encouraging more foreign investment in the oil market, but Ghanems argument is the country cannot go it alone, said Henderson. The North African country sorely needs foreign investors but wants them to view such requests as a partnership rather than as an invitation to take over sectors of the economy, he explained.

The difficult challenge is at home, Arab nationalism is a very strong thing, Henderson told OilPrice.com Foreign investors are seen as diminishing Arab nationalism and therefore are resisted ideologically. And from a foreign investors point of view, selling the notion to your shareholders that you can get a good agreement with an apparent eccentric like Col. Gaddafi is questionable.

...

http://www.businessinsider.com/libya-courts-oil-and-gas...


See this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
47. Contracts become void...
...when there is a major disaster or disruptive factor in a country, like a civil war. A year ago, Qaddafi negotiated some contracts that were more favorable to Libya. If they can get rid of him, and put someone more biddable in place, then they can renew the contracts on more favorable terms to the west.

That's why we are there, and in reality, are going to end up playing both sides like we did in Iraq.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. we can make up any story to fit our scenario with information we dont have
we can also say equally, that what is replaced by qAddafi will create more of a problem for us.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Agreed - but facts are facts
Once an oil refinery got destroyed in an act of civil war, indemnities kicked in and the contracts became void. It's a standard contract provision for global business.

That has happened here. Now whether or not the US will be benefited by the outcome remains to be seen, but the fact is that the contracts did get voided, and it would be beneficial to the west if the terms were renegotiated.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. +1
best time to negotiate is when the other party is at its weakest. Like during a war or early in the set up of a new government.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. what about what post 73 below is saying. but my reply to him applies to you, too
more and more info. why i kinda set back and continue to wait before i decide what is going on, even then, understanding that still there is much behind the scene.

thanks for info
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. They did reduce the contract share, but they got more exploration rights.
So basically the companies traded their share of the overall profits for more ability to explore new wells and to expand out. It was a win win for the companies especially since their contracts go out until 2037. There's a reason the companies are demanding that their contracts be recognized. Gaddafi basically leased them a huge swath of the country.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. and just more and more info keeps coming. kinda why i dont believe i know everything. nt
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. People with confirmation bias are being very misleading.
They're so anti-war that they believe anything that can justify them being anti-war, so they'll overlook (consciously or not) stuff that indicates that the revolutionaries are fighting for a just cause and that ultimately the actions taken by the UN were historical precedent that will make tyrants of the world take a deep breath whenever they persecute their people.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #54
89. No need to make up stories. Big Oil, Halliburton
BP and others last week demanded that the U.S. sanctions on Libya not apply to them. We know who controls these things, we have two other wars from which we have learned.

Right after those statements from the Oil Corps, the U.S. reconsidered the proposition of a NFZ. Billions of dollars of contracts were at stake. Something had to be done.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
72. Patently false, the contracts were more favorable to the companies. They got extended exploration.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
106. Notice how they changed the argument to fit the end....
Two weeks ago it was like:
'Obama failing to stop gaddafi's murder of innocent citizens that were only seeking freedom and Democracy'
Now it's:
Obama conspires with PNAC to send innocent American kids to kill innocent Libyan babies for oil!

:rofl:
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. But, but, but Obama is doing this. Therefore, it CAN"T be the neo-con position.
nt
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. When the Egyptian revolution happened, the neocons were called to the White House for a meeting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It was one of those WTF moments. The Egyptian Youth Coalition is so pissed off that they told Hillary Clinton she's not welcome in Egypt, refused her invitation to meet, and put out a public statement about it.

...

It wasn't all fun and games this time around. Egypt, once one of our busom buddies in the Middle East, now has an entirely different view on United States foreign policy. To them, the US took too long to support the protests, effectively making them Mubarak supporters in democracy's clothing. If we want the Pharonic love, we better be ready to say sorry and play nice.

"There was an invitation for members of the coalition to meet Secretary of State Hillary Clinton," the January 25 Revolution Youth Coalition issued in a statement on their Facebook page, "but based on her negative position from the beginning of the revolution and the position of the US administration in the Middle East, we reject this invitation."

In a separate statement released to an Egyptian newspaper, the coalition, made up of six youth activist groups, also said, "the US administration took Egypt's revolution lightly and supported the old regime while Egyptian blood was being spilled." They went on to elaborate that Clinton was not welcome in Egypt "because the U.S. administration long supported Mubarak's corrupt, dictatorial regime financially, politically, and morally." They expressed no interest in meeting with her until the United States makes a formal apology to the Egyptian people for their support of Mubarak's regime. "The Egyptian people are the masters of their own land and destiny and will only accept equal relations of friendship and respect between the people of Egypt and the people of America."

A spokesman for Clinton had no immediate response.

...

http://www.care2.com/causes/politics/blog/hillary-clint... /
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Without the *diplomatic* pressures applied by Clinton and her staff...
in order to "gently" tell mubarak and his killers to get the f*ck out of the way, many members of the January 25 Revolution Youth Coalition would probably be as good as plain dead as I type this.

Is that what you hope should happen to their young Libyan brothers and sisters?

Good luck.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I'm sorry, I watched the whole thing in minute detail. You're incorrect n/t
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Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. *excellent* work thx for posting k/r
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. It was right out there the whole time. I can't believe I was so blindsighted
It's the exact same game plan with a few nuances like war by Presidential decree this time but it's the same game plan. Regime change in Libya. Sad. Sick.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
21. the usual suspects enmeshed with oil corp $$$ & O fell for it
:cry:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. The same suspects, same motives, same game plan and what do you want to bet
same outcome?
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. This is what bothers me about Libya...that neocons are leading this...
and while I'm not really opposed to the no-fly zone action, I fear they will push Obama for more...and get it...they're still in charge.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
27. If Paul Bremer is for it, I'm sure I'm against it.
Again, this is no "humanitarian" effort. This is an attempt at regime-change to a government that is more stable and friendly to Western interests. Quaddafi is a loose cannon at this point -- they can't predict what he will do or who he will support. He's made the other Arab nations nervous and so now the Arab League wants to use us to do the dirty work of regime change.

We aren't going to win hearts and minds in Libya with bombs. All we're going to do, in the long run, is increase anti-American and anti-Western sentiment which will be a boon to terrorist recruiting. But then, the Arab League knows this. And the Saudis can sit back and laugh at how they've played us, while the true victims in Libya suffer even greater destruction under some newly-installed puppet regime.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. Seeing Paul Bremer's name on that letter is a red flag for me too,
but I still can't say I'm against intervention, provided it's a limited intervention and not an attempt to install a neo-colonial puppet government in Libya. It appears to be turning into just that, unfortunately.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Here are the names that lept out at me
So many of them have that familiar reek. If we compare these signatories to the the Kosovo and Iraq letters, I wonder how different they'd be?

Randy Scheunemann

Robert Kagan

Lawrence Kaplan

Paul Bremer

Elizabeth Cheney
William Kristol

Eliot Cohen

Eric Edelman
Joshua Muravchik
Leon Wieseltier

Michael O'Hanlon

Martin Peretz

Bruce Pitcairn Jackson
John Podhoretz
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. Well, I'm not familiar with all of them.
But the names Paul Bremer, Elizabeth Cheney, William Kristol and John Podhoretz have a very familiar stench. I'm sure if I google the others it will be more of the same.
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Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. wiki-link in case you haven't seen it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_Americ...

quite a list of footnotes!

Then, kinda like Blackwater>Xe we have

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_a_New_American_...

then there's this extensive list detailing who supported what

http://www.publiceye.org/pnac_chart/pnac.html

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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. Thanks for the links to that rogues' gallery.
The Public Eye reference chart is especially valuable. Bookmarking this thread for later reference.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
71. That's quite a chart. Bookmarked with thanks n/t
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #52
90. Thanks for those links. going to read them
now ~

But Bremer, Liz Cheney, Elliot Abrams, Krystol, what are we worried about? :eyes:
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. And I do believe Bill Kristol was on Fox Noise advocating American ground troops in Libya this AM.
These leopards never changes their spots.

Why do we repeat the same failed policies in the hope that maybe, this time, things will turn out differently?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
87. Elizabeth Cheney and Elliot Abrams ~
I can't believe how smoothly they pulled it off.

And Congress apparently has had no say in this.

The powers of the Unitary Executive ARE the powers of a king. Just as we said when Bush was king.


Congress needs to hold an emergency session to find out what the plans are. THEY are responsible for funding wars. Do they just get the bill now without debate and pay up when the Unitary Executive orders them to?

What happened to our democracy?
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
64. I totally forgot about that guy
last I saw him Bush was giving him some big medal.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
29. War-dacity. K&R
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
34. What a nest of vipers.
Creepy.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
44. Well, Obama does have to please his base.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
46. ( Ugh. Lieberman.) What a mess this is...
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 11:56 AM by Desertrose
God Catherina ...I really really hope you are wrong (as I'm sure you do too) but....I just don't have a good feeling....deja vu and all.

I want the Libyans (& all people) to be safe ....but there HAS to be a better way.
eta...than THIS way.

:hug:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. I often hope I'm wrong
the trouble is I've had a growing uneasy feeling about this for weeks. Now I know why. Hi my friend :hug:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
49. K&R
Thanks for these links
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
50. Recommended
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
53. Fantastic post. K&R.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
57. Conservatives & Senate Republicans are all against the UN resolution to establish a no-fly zone.
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 12:11 PM by ClarkUSA
Proof: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Sen...

They want a declaration of war, not a namby-pamby wimped out UN resolution approved no-fly zone.
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LAGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. And they'll probably get their wish before this is over.
It's a lot easier to start these things than it is to end them.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. 2 points. 1. The evidence I just presented says differently. 2. This isn't a no-fly zone
"We should pursue a no-fly zone combined with an enclave strategy centered on Benghazi."

In fact the Arab League is so concerned at how we've escalated things above an NFZ that Amr Moussa just called an emergency meeting of the Arab League.

And this is just step one of 'by all measures necessary'.

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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
108. and thank you
for posting this and keeping us informed.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
66. the neocons got Bill Clinton to ok regime change in Iraq
in 1998...

We'll see if Obama does any better standing up to those dangerous clowns.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I think it's too late for that. The minute the Egyptian Revolution started
he invited neocons to the White House to discuss it. I see this as already a done deal.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
77. PNAC
that's all you need to know about where this is going. :(
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
81. Thanks, a PNAC dream come true.
And in their minds, an end to all these silly revolutions sweeping the region, undermining U.S. influence by taking away their favorite dictators.

I guess I was fooled at first too, hoping it was going to be like the other two, but there was a nagging worry about the OIL!! in the back of my mind, especially as I read the Wikileaks cables and saw how much money was involved and then the demands from the Oil Corps that they be allowed to 'continue their work'.

At least the charade is not working but now they're there, it doesn't matter, they will not be leaving any time soon. :cry:
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
82. It's so completely obvious that PNAC would want this, that I can't see
why this is news. More imperialism from our centrist president and his good friends on the other side of the aisle. :banghead:
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
85. "We're all neo-cons now" - Chris Matthews.
:puke:
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
91. Your President just authorized
an illegal war, without Congressional declaration or resolution, which is killing Muslim Men, Women and Children with your tax dollars....and then he took a trip to South America, no defined mission... WTF?

If this doesn't fly in the face of Hypocrisy I don't know what does..... Bush must be laughing his ass off....
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
93. ...that saying about a broken clock being right twice a day applies here.
I can't say I care what they think one way or another.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
95. The 'Blowing Smoke' crowd is conspicuously absent from this thread. nt
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
98. It's not just the PNAC that is orchestrating this
the DLC - the PNAC counter-part in the Democratic Party is behind this as well.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Will Marshall
Edited on Sun Mar-20-11 07:17 PM by chill_wind
"The world needs to help the rebels check Qaddafis momentum now, not next month or the one after. Its hard to see how that can be done without supplying the rebels with intelligence and the heavy arms -- rockets, artillery and tanks -- they need to match Qaddafis better equipped and organized forces. The rebels, a mlange of military defectors and valiant but inexperienced civilians, also need weapons and tactical training."

Arm Libyas rebels
By Will Marshall - 03/16/11 11:06 AM ET
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/1...

http://www.progressivefix.com/arm-libya%E2%80%99s-rebel...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-20-11 08:33 PM
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102. Deleted message
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
105. Gee, all the same criminals who begged Clinton
to attack Iraq. We know how THAT turned out. The same ones who are now saying "We're committed cuz Obama said 'regime change'. He HAS to attack now."
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
107. That expains some of what I've been reading today.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-21-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
109. Empire to Arab street: resistance is futile.

That is the message of this play. It won't work, not for long.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
110. F**k Sourpuss Lieberman
and the rest of those snake-piss drinking evil bastards. PNAC needs to be exposed for the planet-shredding beast it is!

Maybe that puss-faced Lieberman is the AC?
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-23-11 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
111. "Neo-cons and the Libya intervention. This isn't pretty." kick for later. n/t
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