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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:09 PM
Original message
How sad is this? Obama APPROVES of Manning torture
From this morning:

Tapper: The State Department Spokesman PJ Crowley said the treatment of Bradley Manning by the Pentagon is ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid, and Im wondering if you agree with that. Thank you sir.

Obama: With respect to Private Manning, I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are. I cant go into details about some of their concerns, but some of this has to do with Private Mannings safety as well.

Tapper: Do you disagree with PJ Crowley?

Obama: I think I gave you an answer to the substantive issue.


Video here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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JokerAllstar Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's very sad
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. It is -- that all that "hope" and "change" have come to this...
n/t
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
176. The NAKED Thing?
That is BS

There is a mean streak in the Military and the DOJ and all the spies agencies, and the treatment of Bradley Manning has proved their vindictive Agenda.

These rotten forces of power could not have any influence on the next election do they?
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Chains you can believe in
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. And bereave in.
I really could just cry.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama's own words unrecced.
Interesting.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Actually
it's the OP's interpretation/spinning of Obama's words that are being unrecommended. By me at least.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. There is no other construction one can put on it.
He had an opportunity to express opposition and he did not. What conclusion do you draw?
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Please tell us which of his words you would recommend.
Love to hear it. Really.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
187. No spin. It's there on video.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
145. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Jesus Obama you are a Harvard law professor!
You trust the Pentagon...nm. Pointless.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. He's saying that Manning is suicidal and that's why they he doesn't always have sheets
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:14 PM by Renew Deal
and clothes.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You should read up on the subject
The suicide watch scam is easily-disproven total bullshit.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. That's not my point
That's what this means. "but some of this has to do with Private Mannings safety as well."
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
146. 'some of this'. not all of it? He's so sad. what a sad man.
if its not about his safety then what? Torture is just another day in the office for our guy. keeping innocent people in dog kennels for the rest of their lives is just business as usual. sad beyond belief.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. Anyone that knows how the game is played, knows they are torturing Manning.
They set up the conditions for him to get depressed and then striped him of his humanity (clothing) to make him suicidal, then say he is suicidal. Wash, rinse, repeat until he kills himself or dies from depression and/or pneumonia.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Stripping Manning of his clothes will certainly cheer him up and banish any suicidal tendencies.
Donchya just love military logic?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
86. Yup, it is the demonstration of sanity at work.
Kinda like... "You are homeless because you don't have money for a place to live. We don't feel like spending money to make sure everyone has a decent place to live. You are depressed because you don't have a place to live, so we are going to lock you up to protect you. Yes, we have lots of money to lock you up, but none to provide an actual place to live."

The mental health logic is impeccable.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
201. Well if you do not agree with that, it's a different thing
If you have expertise on handling this sort of issue, shouldn't you be working for change in that area?

Or do you really have no idea what you are talking about?

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #201
207. Actually, I do have experience in the area.
10 years worth of it.

You?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #207
216. then what is to be done to prevent suicides?
Give facts, we can't just agree with you due to your claiming expertise on the internets.

Why would the federal government not know about preventing prison suicides, where random posters on the internets do?

What are they doing wrong and what is the proper way to deal with it?

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #216
218. How about they consult psychiatrists about his mental health rather than brig guards?
And, if he is truly a suicide risk, treat him for mental illness rather than torture and humiliate him. And, if he is found not to be mentally ill and not a danger to society return him to duty until trial.

I have worked with suicidal people and never considered locking them in a room alone, forcing them to strip, or make them stand at attention while being perused by brig guards.

Call me a bleeding heart that thinks dehumanizing people is not good for their mental health.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. ..although not a single doctor has actually said that...
...which makes it rather curious...
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. And you know this how???
:shrug:
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
56. Please see link. Last paragraph.."found he was not a danger to himself"...
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xphile Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
111. In fact the doctors say the opposite.
This "suicide watch" is merely an excuse to find ways to further humiliate him. Meanwhile, a soldier who was convicted of killing civilians in Afghanistan and taking body parts as trophies was sentenced to a mere 60 days hard labor. And Manning has been locked up and not yet convicted for how long now?

This is getting ridiculous. And I can't believe the people making excuses for Obama's lame ass response. (Not that I'm saying you're doing that. I'm just consolidating my answers into on post.)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. There is no doctor's report that Manning is suicidal.
In fact, the record shows doctors consistently saying he is not suicidal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. Bullshit. There is zero excuse to mistreat Manning. nt
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #64
92. Those are different issues.
One issues is whether he is actually suicidal or if this is some sort of punishment.
The other issue is whether the measures taken for his "safety" are reasonable.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. There is no doctor's report that desinates him as suicidal.
In fact, the record consistently shows otherwise.

And that makes the second question moot.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #104
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #133
136. Here's a link for you. And yours goes nowhere.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #136
147. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #104
202. Is that required under the law?
And my same question that has still gone unanswered: if Manning were released from this "torture" but then did kill himself, there would be no blame assigned to the government or the President, is that correct?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #202
209. Only doctors can diagnose and prescribe.
And yes, Manning's welfare is the responsibility of the agency holding him in custody, you bet.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #209
213. Is he on any medication? That would be an indicating
factor of his mental health, and I don't remember seeing or hearing that he is taking any medication whatsoever. What DR. would say a patient is suicidal and not prescribe anti-depressants for him? In fact when discussing his situation on the news, the pentegon rep never mentioned that any DR. put him on suicide watch, only that he was put on suicide watch. Also they never mentioned Dr.s at all
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #209
215. So you will be blaming the government no matter what
If he kills himself, it's their fault for not preventing it. If they take steps to prevent it, then they are "torturing" him.

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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
131. "That page has gone AWOL." n/t
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
117. Well alrighty then. As long as we can find a doctor to say someone's not
suicidal, we can treat them like shit. Release the hounds!
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
172. the problem is, the prison psychologist disagrees. officially.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
188. The psychiatrist who evaluated Bradley said he was *not* suicidal.
And the doctor spoke against the treatment to which Bradley is being subjected.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
220. And you're saying no matter how bad the bullshit, you follow a leader and a team, not principles.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. A pathetic justification of the violation of human rights for whistleblower who revealed war crimes.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. I read the PJ Crowly quote aover and over, and the word "torture"
does not appear in it.

DO you have an actual quote in which Obama "approves" torture for Manning?
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Go inform yourself
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:15 PM by Bragi
I've no more time or patience for nitpicky crap about whether mentally breaking a person down constitutes torture.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. The UN Special Rapporteur for TORTURE is investigating Manning's detention.
Do you mean to say the president is unaware of that fact?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/23/un-treatmen...

I find it hard to believe that Obama knows less about this situation than I do.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
129. I'm sure he is aware of it- And I'm pretty sure
that he wouldn't have made the comment he did if he believed that the UN would find it to be deemed torture.

I don't approve of the way Mr. Manning is being detained- but then I don't approve of quite abit of what is established "Military" procedure. Mr. Manning joined up and remained in the military by choice. And when he did that, he was made aware that his 'rights'- unfortunately aren't the same as an average citizen. I'm not saying that's moral- OR 'just'.- but all soldiers know that they don't have the same freedom or in some cases the same protections as a civilians. They operate under the UCMJ.


What about the other soldiers who are being detained in military prisons? Don't deserve the same amount of empathy and compassion as is being shown Mr. Manning?

I can't defend the way he is being treated. I do find the selective outrage discouraging.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #129
140. I agree that this issue is much bigger than this one case. n/t
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
158. Did you read the sub-title of the article you reference .... ??
"Office of rapporteur on torture confirms it is looking into complaint made by Manning supporter"

This is your proof?
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
142. He "approves" of how he is being handled which by UN definition is torture...
...do I have to physically connect the dots for you, or can you get there yourself?
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #142
160. What specifically has the UN said. Be specific.
A poster above provided a link which proved nothing.

What links do you have?
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
189. OMG. If this weren't such a serious & sad chapter of our country's decline, I'd find that
statement comical.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. What don't you understand? It's not torture.
Obama has said that we don't torture.
Obama has said we're following procedures re: Manning.
Thus, it is proved that Manning is not being tortured.
QED
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. America never tortures
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
44. "Freedom Tickles"
I've never seen that poster or heard that phrase before. Very good dark humor.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
163. Torture is as American as cherry pie (with apologies to H. Rap Brown) - n/t
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. Indeed, none dare call it torture
For if it prosper, it isn't torture. Or some such bullshit sophistry. Damn, I'm so old, I remember when the United States used to fight against this sort of thing. I guess if they finally drive Manning insane, they can parade him around as the inevitable product of his guilty conscience.

I wonder if they'll charge the Manning family for the means of his execution?
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
190. That's what the boy king said, too.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
203. You're using a definition for it that includes that, we understand
We understand you think what is done to Manning is "torture." You are a suicide prevention expert.

But if the sheets and clothes are restored and Manning does in fact kill himself with them, then, in that situation, you would not blame the government, correct?

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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. His 'basic standards' are what now?
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:14 PM by somone
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Probably same as Bush --
The Bush definition was that it's only torture if it results in permanent organ damage.

So as long as you don't consider the brain an organ 9which it is), then destroying someone's mental capacity isn't torture.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. it's disgusting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. are you saying obama's a murdering terrorist?
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. Suggesting that its torture is an insult to anyone thats actually been tortured.
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:19 PM by phleshdef
I am 100% against bogus suicide "worries" being used to humiliate him, if thats whats actually happening. But lets not abuse the word torture and thus cause it to lose all meaning.
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Nope, it is torture and unconscionable /nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
90. Solitary confinement is torture?
are you kidding me?


When we start pulling out his finger nails and water boarding him then bitch


Funny how every single major human rights organization has protested Manning's treatment, but they did do much of anything for the people Bush tortured

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. There's a definition in 104 and a long article on this question
in #107.

You bet your sweet bippie it is.
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krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #96
112. 107 has no link
this is 107

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

no link


but it does not matter

Solitary confinement is not torture, period. There has been studies that go both ways. When a person who has experienced both says it is not torture I believe him not a damn study
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #112
128. 104. Solitary confinement IS torture. Period. Per the UN.
"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Next?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #112
139. Here you go:
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
108. Yes, according to this crowd, anything the prisoner doesn't like is torture.
According to their insane logic, we shouldn't even lock people up because they might not like it!
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krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. +1
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #108
127. Go to the link in #104 and look at the actual definition of torture.
Here, I'll cut and paste the relevant bit for you..This is from the United Nations definition of torture......(bolding mine)

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Read it and get back to me on the "logic" you think is insane.

Thanks!
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #127
177. Yes. I've read it. It changes not a single thing.
Manning isn't enduring anything that prisoners in this country have had to endure for ages. Its not "severe". Severe is much worse than that. Manning is a criminal and is being subjected to the kind of discomforts that criminals are typically subjected to when they have been caught, especially when its military related. He is not being tortured. Being stripped naked and deprived of social time is not severe physical or mental punishment. You THINK it is because your sense of what constitutes "severe" is warped.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. As I posted above, the UN Special Rapporteur for Torture is investigating
Manning's detention. There is no abuse of the word going on here.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
162. As I responded above ... the subtitle of your article ....
"Office of rapporteur on torture confirms it is looking into complaint made by Manning supporter"

Looking into a complaint is NOT a finding of anything.

Some one makes a complaint, you'd investigate it. But what you would not do is use the investigation to conclude guilt.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Solitary confinement is torture.
The fact that we do it all the time doesn't make it less so.
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ej510 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. It meant cause mental trauma. Isolation is torture. There is a reason people who enjoy their friends
and family and spend time with social groups live longer than isolated people.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Solitary confinement can cause permanent brain damage. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
103. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
138. You know where the link is and you have the google.
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krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
116. reading this thread can cause permanent brain damage
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
170. And the brain is an organ? Which is being damaged, right?
The Bush administration defined torture as the interrogation techniques that result in permanent organ damage, right?

Obama has now endorsed interroration techniques that harm someone's psyche, mental, and neurological (brain functioning) health.

So Obama is now endoring techniques that are torture under the Bush definition. Right?

If I'm wrong on this, I am hopeful someone will point out my error.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. There is a legal definition of torture and solitary confinement does not fit it.
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:50 PM by phleshdef
You don't GET to change that definition. So sorry.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. It most certainly does. Every single human rights organization has also
protested the United States' widespread use of solitary confinement, too.

YOU don't get to change the definition.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
75. Human rights organizations rightfully protest a lot of things that aren't torture.
Being locked in a room all by yourself definately sucks. Its also definately not torture. If Bush had been doing nothing but locking up terrorists in solitary confinement, then we wouldn't even be having this torture conversation.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Being "locked in a room all by yourself" can give you brain damage.
Isolation, sensory deprivation, sleep disruption, forced nudity, all torture techniques.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. Show me some brain scans that scientifically prove that. I call bullshit.
Brain damage is caused by cutting off oxygen to the brain or blunt trauma or cancer. Its not caused by hating your life. Severe depression maybe. Brain damage, utter bullshit.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. I put the link for you in #107.
Have fun.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
171. You are qualified to analyse brain scans? /nt
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #171
178. Its painfully obvious that I would want said scans to come with a qualified opinion...
...pretending that I meant my own analysis of the scans would mean anything doesn't help you win any arguments, it just makes you look desperate.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
154. we also practice Capitol Punishment- which most civilized nations
do not- yet many Democrats support it.

America isn't without it's problems and inconsistencies. We allow prison rape- I've read several times on this site where people have gleefully posted that when "so-and so" gets to prison, they'll get what they deserve.

We are a pretty cruel society in many ways. Even right here on DU. I think this might be part of the need to demonize others- even the President. We all- myself very much included- have things to work on and resolve about the way we live versus the way we expect others to.

That being said, we use solitary confinement all the time here in the US. And worse. Mr.Manning has supporters and a following, many people being treated far worse than this have no one. Our outrage should be broad and without respect to how much we identify or support the person being mistreated. imo

(don't mean to dump on you- EFerrari, but I find you to be pretty honest, even when we disagree.)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #154
169. +1000% -- thank you - K/R for your post --
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #154
179. "Our outrage should be broad and without respect to how much we identify or support the person being
mistreated."

Those are the most important words I have read on this subject.

THANK you!
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_ed_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
211. How does it feel to be defending torture?
I always wondered what it was like to be a Bush robot defending torture from 2000-2008.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
52. That's like saying punching someone in the face is not assault
because some people are beaten up with lead pipes.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
101. No, its more like your argument is saying we shouldn't even imprison people...
...because its not a pleasant experience, therefore it MUST be torture.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
63. Sounds like the arguments for waterboarding. nt
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
97. No, waterboarding is definately torture.
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
183. says an unrepentant, devout Obama supporter
if Bush were doing this you'd be livid
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
191. Torture isn't limited to physical harm; his mental state is deteriorating.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 03:10 AM by pacalo
Besides taking his clothes away & having him stand for hours in front of the guard, he's being subjected to a cruel "push me-pull me" game with the guards, the commander who met with him.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
204. +1000000000000000000
And there is never any admission that the person calling it that is an expert on suicide or would leave off blaming the government if any prisoner did kill themselves.
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_ed_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
206. When Bush/Cheney used forced nudity
in Abu Gharib, did you complain? I hope not -- you'd be a massive hypocrite.

So Obama worship goes all the way to defending torture? Sorry, I'm off this boat. I used to criticize Bush robots who refused to criticize their dear Leader. Obama robots are no better. Think for yourself.
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_ed_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
212. John McCain said that solitary was the worst aspect
of his torture.

Out of curiousity, what would it take for you to criticize Obama. I'm beginning to realize that many Obama supporters were just like Bush supporters: they'll defend him reflexively no matter what he does.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
29. I think I am ready for Senator Kerry and others to start publicly disagreeing with Obama. n/t
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Yep. He needs to stay true to himself
but he may be cautious because of possible backlash from Obama's staunchest supporters out there. :shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. Disagree fine -- but if you're thinking a challenger for 2012, forget Kerry ... please!!
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
81. Not at all. I am speaking just with respect to this issue of torture. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #81
105. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #81
168. Well, good for Kerry if he spoke out against it --
I rechecked the article quickly but didn't see any mention of Kerry -

maybe I need a nap!

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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. Tears In My Eyes
This has me in tears.

I feel so bad.......
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Obama's just hosted an event on the prevention of bullying yesterday.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #35
78. You got that right. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
120. You know, I don't understand why no gay rights group
has stepped up to the plate for Manning. Wikileaks supporters have, human rights orgs have. If this is to get to any serious level, gay rights orgs have to.

I emailed Get Equal today -- they seem to be the least risk adverse among them all.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is incredibly sad. No wonder there's no prosecution of Bush for torture.
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. Maybe the President will write the Pentagon a sternly worded letter asking them to "fill
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:43 PM by Guy Whitey Corngood
him in on what's going on...... if it's not too much trouble of course".
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
42. Good answer, Mr. President. Stupid question Tapper you idiot.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Why is the question stupid? Because it is embarrassing
to have to acknowledge you are being investigated for torture or what?
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. It's a stupid question for two reasons: first, it's stupid to ask "Do you agree with PJ, yes or no?"
...Because PJ's statement was characteristically nuanced:

I spent 26 years in the air force. What is happening to Manning is ridiculous, counterproductive and stupid, and I dont know why the DoD is doing it. Nevertheless, Manning is in the right place.


The question put to the President asked him first to agree or disagree with a portion of PJ's statement, already misquoted -- PJ talked about "what is happening," not Manning's "treatment." PJ might well have been referring to the charges themselves.

Second, PJ goes on to say "Manning is in the right place." Rather a notion at odds with the idea that PJ thinks Manning's "treatment" is the problem.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. No, Crawly was talking about Manning's treatment.
More than one witness has already attested to that. Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There was no quoting here.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. I gave you a link to the direct quote. The same link FDL used to gin this story up.
You should read it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. FDL didn't have to "gin" anything up. There are multiple sources
from witnesses with the same take.

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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. There's a direct quote. The whole thing taped and transcribed.
Sorry, that's what he said. You can dance around whatever you think he meant, but what he said is pretty clear -- and in character.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Yes, he was clear and in character and that is reflected in
the multiple reports from witnesses, including the journalists at the event who asked him if his remarks were for the record.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. "Manning is in the right place" does not equal "Manning's treatment is right"...
Jeebus, talk about nuanced...

It was a very simple question, a fellow govt employee has said 'x', do you agree with that?

Then we all got was a bullshit tap-dance full of plausible denial.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. So is there a 4-star health spa at Quantico as well?
You think that's what PJ meant? :D
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. He's behind bars because he's accused of a crime = fine. He's being tortured = not fine.
Very, very simple.

I don't approve of torture, and I sure as hell won't be an apologist for those that do. You are free to do as you please..
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Oh, please. So is PJ a torture "apologist," or
...does the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs have no idea how military prisoners are treated?
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. No, that would be Obama.
..and apparently the President of the United States has no idea how they are treated because he had to ask....
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Now *there's* a dodge. (nt)
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Hey I'm not the one on here saying the the President's answer was great..
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 02:27 PM by truebrit71
...and that he answered the "substance" of the question really well, which he clearly did not..

You believe whatever you want, but as far as I'm concerned President 'Indefinite Detention' just said he was okay with Manning's treatment which is the textbook definition of torture.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. This habit of misleading and unflattering paraphrasing isn't helpful to a real conversation.
I guess "you believe what you want" back at you. :shrug:
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #106
115. Just taking your previous points from this and another thread..
...and putting them together... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You would rather get pedantic about the phrasing of PJ's statement, than pay attention to the fact that President Obama is fine and dandy with the way Manning is being treated.

THAT is the issue here, NOT arguing over "what the definition of 'is' is" type of linguistic parsing you are playing at...
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CommonSensePLZ Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. He's accused of a crime to keep the people who actually
Commit and order them out of trouble.

"Snitches get stitches"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
65. Bingo. Where is their outrage at the system sending minorities
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 02:15 PM by politicasista
that are wrongfully accused in this country that are in prison? :shrug:


They all have to tread lightly on this issue.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #65
114. I didn't know it until I started reading up on solitary confinement
but prisoner and human rights orgs all around the world have protested the US use of solitary and for some time now but the "liberal media" hasn't reported that.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #114
121. It seems like the media has been silent when it comes to minorities being
mistreated in prison, but are all up in arms about Manning and screaming about prison reform now that there is a black president, but didn't demand the same accountability when Bush I and II and Clinton held the office.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #121
135. Actually, the corporate media has done squat for Brad Manning
but you're right, they never miss an opportunity to slam Obama.

If most Americans really knew what our prisons were like or how minorities are routed to them, I don't think they would even believe it.

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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #135
149. True n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
126. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #126
161. Sorry, dear xphile, but the question was stupid.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
221. Rah, rah, sis-boom-bah, gooooooooooooo TEAM!!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
49. How pitiful ... so we have a president who can't think for himself ... !!
And relies on the Pentagon to tell him what's real and what's not?


:nuke:

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Consulting the Pentagon about Manning is like consulting Tony Soprano about gun safety.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
77. +10000000000
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
119. Glenn Greenwald just tweeted:
Perhaps there haven't been any Wall Street prosecutions because Obama asked Jamie Dimon if there was any fraud & he assured him there wasn't.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #119
137. Ouch.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #119
166. Would love for him to say that mess to his face
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 05:30 PM by politicasista
He won't because he can hide behind the internet and blogposts rather than say it to Obama out loud. The President looks like the real adult here, he has to deal with more on a daily basis than Greenwald ever will.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #119
174. I do like Glenn Greenwald.
I surely do.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
50. Is it just me or is the weaseling and non-answering worse than the opinion itself?
(Whatever it is.)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. +1000% -- "weaseling and non-answering" -- embarrassing denial of torture -- !!
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 01:56 PM by defendandprotect
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
58. "We don't torture"- GWB/BHO
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
60. The head of empire has great responsibilities..

the necessities of empire are what they are.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. CYA being foremost.
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. Sickening. n/t
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 02:09 PM by Cali_Democrat
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
80. Why is anyone surprised by this? Obama can hold anybody for an indefinite period of time...
Remember? "Indefinite detention"? And he also has the power to single-handedly appoint anybody an "enemy combatant" (and have them assassinated). He inherited these unconstitutional powers from Bush. DU was screaming murder back then. Now, it's getting defended.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. But..but...Obama gives pretty speeches about Human Rights and Transparent Government.
Not to mention he has a cute doggie.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. ...and walking picket lines...and single payer health care...
...you know, really, REALLY pretty speeches..
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #85
98. And a sexy wife.
Who has some curious notion that shaving her eyebrows is.... attractive?

I'll take the cute doggie.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
181. +10fucking000 if I spoke my mind I would be banned.
This fucking bullshit drove me mad back then. It feels worse now.

New boss... Same as the old boss.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #181
193. If you hold Obama to the same standard as Bush on DU, you'll get mocked...
They belittle you and trivialize the importance of those unconstitutional powers Obama now holds. They'll say you're only 'bashing' Obama because his policies haven't been 'perfect'. And if you suggest not re-electing Obama, they'll try to scare you with 'president Palin'...
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #193
199. I simply hold all politicians to the same standard.
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #80
194. +++
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
83. No, he disagrees with the contention that Manning if being tortured
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
84. TORTURE: Here is the United Nations definition.
From "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment,
New York, 10 December 1984"
(The ellipses are theirs, not mine.)


"Torture" is defined as:

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

Link
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Thanks. n/t
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #84
100. That last sentence makes the rest meaningless.
"Inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions" is big enough to drive a truck through.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #100
110. Not really. Being handcuffed to and from a hearing can be painful,
for example, but it is only incidental to being taken safely to and from a court room.

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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #84
192. Thank you.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
87. He's only a risk to himself for eight hrs at night, you see. He's magically ok
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 02:21 PM by chill_wind
the other 16 hrs. Apparently the C.I.C isn't real curious about that.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
95. Time Mag. Today: WikiLeakers and Whistle-Blowers: Obama's Hard Line
WikiLeakers and Whistle-Blowers: Obama's Hard Line
By Mark Benjamin Friday, Mar. 11, 2011


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2058340,...
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mochajava666 Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
107. Manning is being tortured. Obama should be held accountable
Torture is a crime against humanity only approved of by evil people.

Just because he is a Democrat doesn't mean he should have immunity.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
118. You weren't paying attention, Obama never said he wouldn't condone torture.
:sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #118
144. I emailed Get Equal about Manning this morning
and someone got right back to me.

I love those guys. Maybe someone will decide to do something.



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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
122. "They assure me they are."
And it's pretty clear he really doesn't want to know more than that.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. "Plausible deniability' = "I was assured everything was fine"...
...I'm still shaking my head at that statement...

Can't believe the guy we elected thinks the same way as the war criminal he replaced..
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #122
134. The "Good German" defense. "I knew nothing."
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
123. Kind of like yesterday when the Fed said they couldn't find any improperly made bank foreclosures
"We investigated ourselves and determined that we are innocent."
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. We are well and truly through the looking glass...
...so much for "change" I guess..
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #123
130. Totally insane. I wonder how many DUers saw that thread also. n/t
Edited on Fri Mar-11-11 02:57 PM by chill_wind
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #123
132. They also rigged the definition. @ssholes. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #123
141. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #148
152. So much for protecting and defending the Constitution then right?
...whether Manning did or didn't do what makes him a POS in your eyes, doesn't mean you TORTURE HIM IN THE MEANTIME...Remember when the republicans were the bad guys because they did this sort of shit to Iraqis? Now it's happening to Americans and because it's a Dem in the WH it's okay?

Fuck that shit...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #148
167. sold out his friends..
his murderous fucking friends that killed children. why do you hate children?
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
150. Isn't that delightful?
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
151. Not only sad, criminal
What is just plain sad is that all of us would have been very loud in our commendation of bush* if it had happened on his watch, but there are the hard core few here who will justify this because they will never admit that Pres Obama is wrong. Sad indeed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #151
155. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. Again, as has already been posted in this thread
a) Manning was said by a physician who examined him not to be suicidal

b) what is being done to Manning is beyond "normal" suicide watch/precautions
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #157
159. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #159
164. thanks for posting this-
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
156. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
165. If it's bad, he's for it.
Anyone who hasn't figure that out by now, probably never will.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #165
185. He's not trying as hard to hide that anymore
probably thanks to Citizens united.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
173. Can anyone say that this is a surprise
after the last two years? Honestly, can you?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
175. So, he isn't even hiding it. He admits Manning is being tortured.
I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assure me that they are


So, he admits that Manning is being tortured! Of course he uses wording that people can take the other way, but the world knows what 'our basic standards are' regarding torture.

The cat is out of the bag, he should stop the ridiculous thinking that anyone with a brain cell functioning, won't know what that means.

He KNOWS Manning is being tortured, he just said so and he, Constitutional Lawyer that he claims to be, is okay with that.

How can they sleep at night?

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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
180. Did You Know That Obama is a Republican....


Spelled with a D!!!!!
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
182. I'm fuming. This shit was supposed to stop. FUCKING PERIOD.
Solitary... Talk to an ex-con or perhaps a Vietnam vet who was exposed to extended periods of solitary. Ask them plain and simple if it was torture.

I work with an Vietnam vet. He was in held in solitary confinement for two years. He opened up to me one day over a few beers. What he did to escape that torture I will not repeat. I'm a full grown man. I cried when he told me. I cried like a baby.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-11 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
184. After George W. Bush's stint Obama thought to himself, hey! I can do that...hire me - hire me...!
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
186. To justfy evil, claim "top security". Learned that from the boy king.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
195. Torture is torture.
We are as bad as THOSE PEOPLE are, and we can never take the high road again and not look like a bunch of idiots. Thank you Bush for making our country look like assholes. It's no wonder they hate us. our government makes us all look like hypocrites.
Duckie
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
196. Okay, so his stance on torturing US soldiers is wrong.
But did you hear they're making homebrew beer at the white house now. How cool is that?

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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
197. Thread recommended, Obama unrecommended.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
198. Among other wrong stuff.
Where are those crumbs, Obama?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
200. Torture is not an agreed upon definition
AS it is part of law enforcement, and if you think that's torture, you should be working to get Congress to pass a law disallowing it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #200
208. Yes, there is an agreed upon definition of torture and it is posted to this thread. n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #208
217. Du doesn't get to decide that
And if Manning's treatment is torture, and it is stopped, and he kills himself, then DU does not get to complain.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
205. No surprise here.
Edited on Sat Mar-12-11 11:27 AM by sarcasmo
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
210. this should score him some points with the RW n/t
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-12-11 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
214. Has not anyone heard of the word "shorts"? Can't we at least
give the guy a pair of shorts? How could he kill himself with a pair of shorts? Not that I believe he is even suicidal, what is wrong with a pair of shorts or underwear? Why completely naked I keep asking myself and then I think of the abu ghraib and the videos.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #214
219. That would require they recongnize him as human rather than mereley an enemy of the state.
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