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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:58 AM
Original message
Down and Out on $250,000 a Year
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:05 AM by Hannah Bell
Here's the bullshit header:

$250,000 and poor

A family of four with an annual income of $250,000 may be in the top 2.9 percent of earners. But after taxes and basic expenses, they are far from the affluent family they may seem to be.

Here's the sob story:

The analysis assumes that this hypothetical couple lets call them Mr. and Mrs. Jones are each on the payroll of companies, with professional positions. They take advantage of all tax benefits available to them, such as pretax contributions to 401(k) plans and medical, childcare and transportation flexible spending accounts. They have no credit card debt, but Mr. Jones racked up $40,208 in student loan debt in undergraduate and graduate school, and Mrs. Jones borrowed $22,650 to get her undergraduate degree (both amounts are equal to the national averages for their levels of education). They also have a car loan on one of two cars, and a mortgage for 80 percent of the value of a typical home in their communities for a family of four, which includes one toddler and one school-age child.

The bottom line: Its not exactly easy street for our $250,000-a-year family, especially when it lives in high-tax areas on either coast. Even with an additional $3,000 in investment income, they end up in the red after taxes, saving for retirement and their childrens education, and a middle-of-the-road cost of living in seven out of the eight communities in the analysis. The worst: Huntington, N.Y., and Glendale, Calif., followed by Washington, D.C., Bethesda, Md., Alexandria, Va., Naperville, Ill. and Pinecrest, Fla. In Plano, Texas, the couples balance sheet would end up positive, but only by $4,963.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/1...

Um, excuse me? 97% of the population makes less, but we're supposed to feel sorry about the family of four who can barely make it on $253K -- after, in Huntington NY:


- MAXIMIZING contributions to two 401K's ($33,000/year)

- paying the $3000/mo mortgage on their house in a neighborhood appropriate for their income class

- paying $10,000 a year for "maintenance & cleaning" of their home

- paying over $5000 a year to park their cars

- $8000 a year saving for their kids' college

- $1583 a month for day care, babysitting, after-school activities, & camp for the kiddies

- paying the medical & dental insurance

- $520 a month for meals not cooked at home

- $246 a month on clothing

- $230 a month on phone, internet, cable

- $4000 a year for the family vacation

- $599 a month on gifts, entertainment, entertaining at home

- $130 a month on the dog


and the poor dears only have $4000 left at the end of the year after paying total taxes of 29.9% (federal + alternative minimum, social security, state income, sales tax, property tax)

sob.



http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/1...


even *after* paying *all* their taxes they make more than 3/4 of the population makes before taxes.




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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. 4K per year for a family vacation??
I don't even dream that big!

But seriously, those are some huge expenses for having kids that young. That's part of the problem--the monthly expenses are too high from living high, then when one loses a job or gets downsized they complain about it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. i remember several threads at DU where people gave advice to the proles on how to save
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:16 AM by Hannah Bell
money.

maybe they could do the same for this family: looks like they need it more than the proles.

disgusting. "poor" = the family that can put $33K a year into their retirement accounts? that's more than about 1/3 of families make in a year.


most people don't even *have* DENTAL, & would kill to have enough income to pay the premiums for it. bad teeth = signal of class in america.
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mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm fairly sure median income in the US is around $40K, what the riches but away for a rainy day
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Median household income 2009 = $49.7K (census)
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:35 AM by Hannah Bell
http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/acsbr09-2.pdf

Median family income = $61K

Male full-time workers' median income = $46K

Female full-time workers' median income = $36K

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income...

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:49 AM
Original message
Amen.
This story makes me want to puke.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
69. ^Exactly. The family profiled live wastefully! ^
They have 2 kids (and there's nothing wrong with that at all) and their health insurance runs them 4, 213 a year. I assume an emplyer picks up the majority.

My partner and I -both over 55, no kids- pay $895 a month for a $10,000 BC/BS policies per person deductible, 70/30 PPO. No Rx coverage until $10,000 deductible is met.

Being self employed and one of us (me) too sick to work but not qualified for SSI, our yearly income varies between as low as $33,000 to as high as $78,000. It's usually in the middle somewhere (like in the 40K range). But high medical and dental expenses as well as the extra FICA for self -employed people keep us from being able to get ahead. Some years we fall behind on Fed taxes because we seem to like to eat food and we're too scare to drop health insurance. Dental has costs us more as we get older. The post-Katrina expenses of paying a mortgage (and other repair expenses) on our house in New Orleans while we were paying rent up here in Atlanta set us back too.

We haven't had a vacation since 2001!

The oinkers described get no sympathy from me. 'Entertainment expenses' of nearly $600 a month? Ours are in that area for a year!

BTW, Steven Spielberg is going to help advise the Democratic party on 'rebranding'.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/democratic-part...

I'm sure he's just the type to know how to relate to the financial difficulties of such ordinary people as 'the Jones family' in that article! :rofl:
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Don't have the kids.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:48 AM by blueamy66
Easy as pie. And get rid of the dog.

We don't have a dog right now for exactly that reason...we cannot afford one.

People are fucking stupid.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. not when you already have them. not a solution to a current budget crisis,
not for low-income people, not for the wealthy.

it's a rotten thing to throw that at anyone.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. What part of "DON'T GIVE BIRTH TO CHILDREN" is so hard
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:56 AM by blueamy66
to understand?

I cannot afford children, I am not responsible enough to have them, I don't like them THAT much....what don't you get?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. how many times do you have to offer this useless & nasty "advice"?
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Um, daily
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 02:00 AM by blueamy66
when dumbasss co-workers ask me when I am gonna have a kid.

I'm freaking 44 years old. The answer is NEVER.

Why is my good advice, which is to NOT HAVE KIDS IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD THEM, nasty?

Do you think that having children is a right??????

I am sick of having my tax dollars paying for unwanted kids cause 2 grown people can't keep it in their pants.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. because the advice is being offered to people who already have kids,
& whose situations may have changed, through no fault of their own, since they made the decision to have kids.

it's regularly & uselessly offered as advice to poor people who already have kids, & means, essentially, "you stupid fuck-ups".

not helpful to anyone who has children; just an attack.

for the record, i have no children. but i know many people whose situations have changed since they had theirs.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Just don't have them.
"Poor" people SHOULDN'T have kids,.....cause they CANNOT afford them.

Again, having kids isn't a RIGHT.

I'm not attacking either...but quit with the children....Jesus Christ.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. um, you do realize that something as simple as getting laid off can
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 02:29 AM by Hannah Bell
change one from "middle-class" to "poor" don't you?

of course you do.

and, again: telling people they shouldn't have children when they already have them is useless & attacking.

i also take issue with the logic of your post: that the biological function of reproduction is or should be a special right reserved only to the middle or upper classes.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #50
102. Having children SHOULD be a right.
Watch "16 and Pregnant" on MTV. Then you'll understand.

Hey, my 2 nieces have kids....they cannot afford them, but both work their asses off to put food on the table and clothes on their backs. Do I wish they never had the beauties? Hell No.....I just wish they would have waited a while.

What don't you understand? My fiance and I make over $100k a year and we CHOOSE to not have any more kids (he has an 18 year old from a previous relationship). I cannot afford the costs....that's why we don't have any fucking pets either.

I should just delete this post. Some people just don't understand.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
206. $100,000 a year and you cannot afford a dog?
I make $13,000 a year and have 3 of them. Which is two too many.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #206
245. :-)
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 10:10 PM by blueamy66
Have you ever had to put a dog down?

That is part of the "cost" for me.

And we make $100k before taxes and child support.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
195. Most people don't get that.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #50
263. Sorry, just don't agree with you.
I don't have kids for many reasons, but the NUMBER ONE reason is because I DON'T WANT THE EXPENSE!

Get it?
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Papagoose Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
105. Having children is not a right? Really?
If reproduction is not a right, then what is it???
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #105
161. Given the fact that humans have overshot the carrying capacity of the Earth
a huge mistake... :shrug:
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #161
259. thank you
now I don't need to type an answer
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #105
262. Ask a woman that can't conceive.
I'm sure she'll have a good answer for you.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
117. So if a family that can afford kids loses their job, what should they do?
Give the kids back?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #38
130. I'm sure your co-workers ask you all the time
just waiting for that chipper response I'm sure they would expect
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #130
260. THEY DO.
Come live my life sometime buster.

I love kids, but don't want any of my own. I have enough nieces, nephews, great nieces and great nephews.....and a stepson.....I DON'T WANT MY OWN KID. How fucking hard is that for people to understand?

It's bullshit for people to quiz me on a weekly basis about when I'm gonna have "one of my own". FUCKING NEVER!!!! GOT IT????
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
205. that is a silly question to ask a female who is 44
maybe they think you look 37.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #32
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
184. Not having children will put our economy into a disaster.
Remember that as you enjoy your SS later on, my kids are helping to fund that!!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. $4,000 high? With $500/ticket x 4 and you are already at $2,000
$200/night x 10 days for a hotel and the whole amount is spent. Or 7 days and you have got $600 left. $50 per day for a car and you have $250 left for food/tips/entrance fees etc.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. you fly somewhere for your family vacations?
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:52 AM by Hannah Bell
not possible to cut back on that?

when i was a kid our family vacations consisted of tent camping. we never stayed in a hotel for any vacation we ever went on. they were great vacations. we didn't feel deprived. when we got older we got to bring our friends.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. We are in Hawaii.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:59 AM by dkf
I guess we could go to a hotel or something for a staycation. Even a trip to the outer islands is about $160 round trip not counting all those luggage fees.

When I was a kid we couldn't afford to go on family vacations. In fact we still haven't gone all together. There is always someone missing.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. is there something terrible about driving to the beach? you live in freaking hawaii.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 02:07 AM by Hannah Bell
i think they have parks & things.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. Actually I don't really like the beach. It's pretty, but the sand gets everywhere and it's hot!
I'd rather see the beach from my air conditioned car...and I see it every day as I drive to work.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. sit in your air-conditioned house for your vacation then.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #56
71. Sorry but there is no air conditioning here at home.
We pay the highest electricity rates in the country too. That makes air conditioning the place quite expensive.
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #41
252. Living near the ocean is nice, but the some people think the point of a vacation
Edited on Fri Dec-24-10 12:07 AM by Incitatus
is to get away from where you live and see something new. There is a whole world out there and when you see the beach everyday it isn't the same as having to travel hundreds if miles to be there.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
103. LOL!
But Hannah still had a "come back".
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
141. Bwahahaha!
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #141
236. No kidding. I am crying real tears about this. I really am. nt
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
159. When we lived in Hawaii, we couldn't afford family vacations
which is why people get rock fever and eventually leave, screaming, to the mainland. And we both had very good jobs.

Beautiful place to visit, but living in a place where the nearest land mass is a 6-hour plane ride away can get tough after awhile.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
187. Well most of us don't live on a resort beach.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
192. the family profiled lives in new york not hawaii
there is no reason to fly on a family vacation in new york, in this part of the country you can drive or take the train to more beautiful destinations than you can visit in 18 years (assuming you take a vacation each year the kids are not in college, which at this income level, you will)

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #192
229. BUT DAHLINK IF one LIVES in NY, ONE must GO TO St. Barths in the winter.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. Amen.
I think that we are on the same page.

I REALY WANT TO FLY TO FLORIDA NEXT SPRING TO SEE MY STEP SON, BUT, GUESS WHAT, I CANNOT AFFORD IT!!!

What is soooo fucking hard to understand?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. These people can afford it, they just don't have much extra to save if they do
The point of the story is that after all the expenses people making $250,000 don't have a lot left over.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. no, the point is the financial times thinks they are "poor" because after paying for all their needs
including savings, health care, dental care --

they only have $333 a month to blow on "whatever".

but since their budget already includes entertainment, gifts, clothing, vacation, eating out, etc.

i'm not sure what's left to blow the $333 on. gold-plated chocolates? wtf do they want?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #55
74. They never called these people "poor". They simply said these people aren't necessarily living like
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:26 AM by dkf
Country club types with a second home or anything. Their life style is what you would expect from the middle class, not the elite earners.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. earth to dfk: "$250K and poor" is in the heading on the picture & introductory blurb.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:29 AM by Hannah Bell
and the article is titled: "down & out on $250K"
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. Oh sorry. I was so sure that was your take on it.
All I know is if that is the ultra cushy life only the elite can aspire to we are in trouble. The American Dream isn't very secure.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. nothing is secure when your livelihood is dependent on the whims of capital.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:43 AM by Hannah Bell
however, $250K is a nice living for a worker, and not one that most workers would consider impoverished.

the supposedly tight budget in the article is laughable to most people. the hypothetical couple saves half of their after-tax income & the financial times bills it as poverty.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. Actually it says that with that level of savings they are in the red so they wouldn't be able to
fund their retirement or college savings at the maximum.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. their retirement & college savings is the savings i'm talking about.
they contribute the maximum to their 401ks ($33K) and $8000 a year to their children's college fund.

look at the budget.

plus they have $4000 a year to blow. or put into other savings. or invest. or whatever, have their hair done.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. Last paragraph page 1
"unfortunately, the family would also probably save less, at the expense of their retirement or their kids educations.

At the level of spending they deem normal the family would not be able to do everything described without being in the red in 7 of 8 cities they did calculations for.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. well, they deem "normal" saving more than most families make in a year. they deem normal eating
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 04:20 AM by Hannah Bell
lunch out every day & spending $10K a year to maintain & clean their house.

so i certainly can't argue that "at the level of spending they deem normal" they don't have enough income to be what they deem normal.

They still have more income than 97% of americans. and five times more than the median family, which is what most people think of as "normal".
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #89
138. I've seen condo maintenance fees around $1000 a month here for a two bedroom no less.
Supposedly that is a fair value of what it takes to maintain the property when expensed monthly

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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #138
154. Sure, if you want a door-man. And a maintenance crew.
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #87
171. That's Why Us
"regular" people trying to pay back school loans with no kids and a salary of $45,000 don't save the max for retirement. According to financial "experts," I should be putting away $39,000 a year to have a safe retirement. Huh? On what planet? I'll agree it takes a sh*tload of cashola to do everything right. That's why most of us don't.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #82
104. Easy answer.
Don't have kids...no need for college savings.

:-)
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #104
139. Yeah that is my solution too.
Then I can afford my cell, my cable/Internet and my parking all of which exceeds this high spending family. If I got a mortgage, I would be spending about half of their mortgage plus half of their maintenance fees. This is me x 2 except without kids.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #139
258. I don't get the "need" to have kids,.
Hey, I love my nieces, nephews, great nieces and great nephews, but who the hell wants kids these days?

I have a stepson....we pay child support and will for another 6 years....I just don't get the "excitement" of giving birth and raising a kid.

Maybe I have issues. :-) But I don't have to buy $100 Nikes, do I?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #74
151. The middle class can afford to add more than 30k per year to their 401K
And $4000 vacations? And around $600 a month for entertainment related expenses? Well damn, I can't wait until I become middle class.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #74
194. If this family cut their expenses, they could be living like country club folks.
But they choose to spend nearly as much as they make and that is their problem. They haven't learned the difference between needs and wants.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
208. These people are SAVING 33,000 a YEAR in their 401k's PLUS
putting aside money for their kid's colleges.

Many people I know don't MAKE $33,000 a year,
let alone have it "put aside" from their take home pay.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
140. Don't have a step son. Problem solved.
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Foo Fighter Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #140
239. Oh, SNAP! n/t
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #140
261. Well, aren't you a font of information.
NOT.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #261
266. People shouldn't carelessly go around having stepchildren they can't afford to visit.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #266
269. You're an ass.
I didn't know about the kid until after I fell in love with the boy's Dad.

My stepson is the light of my life.....scholarship to an awesome University and works at a grocery store too.

Um, you cannot NOT have a stepson. Those were choices made 10 years before I met his Dad.

Are you really that stupid?

Oh, and I can afford to visit him...I just got a huge Christmas bonus from the owner of my company. Going to Gainesville and buying a new set of kitchen appliances! WooHoo!

Happy Christmas Scrooge.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #269
271. huh?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #33
116. So did we
Our kids have great memories. We went somewhere every summer and always camped. Always drove there. Our vacation budget was usually less than $1000. I can't even imagine what kind of a vacation we would have taken for $4000.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #116
230. Snorkeling in the Caymans. And it's worth evey penny.
trust me.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #230
254. hiking in the goat rocks wilderness. free, & worth just as much as snorkeling at a caymans resort.
Edited on Fri Dec-24-10 02:41 AM by Hannah Bell
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
188. Exactly.
People seem to think they deserve the complete spa treatment when they go away for a holiday...that's ridiculous! We do usually camp or stay with friends, staying at cheap motels just to catch some sleep on the way home. Our kids LOVE our vacations, too. They enjoy fishing and going to look for shells, etc.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
227. yeah, what happened to
3 days in the car and 2 nights in seedy motels on the way to the Grand Canyon or Great Smoky Mountains?
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Or, on the other hand, if you cannot AFFORD a vacation,
you DON'T GO ON A VACATION.

What is this American "sense of entitlement"?

Don't get it now and NEVER WILL!!!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #34
45. Well we never did and never will at least not all together.
So I have no memories of a family vacation ever. The best we did was staying overnight in a tent at some camping ground without hot showers.

The biggest Irony is that my retired former state worker parents have their juicy pensions and social security checks now and they are flush and go on vacations at least 4 times a year. And they both retired at 55. Yep what a life. When Dad retired he started taking home more than when he was working.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. no hot showers? for one night? omg!!!!!!!!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #52
81. I'm just saying it wasn't exactly the type of vacation you dream about.
But we are better off now than when we struggled as kids.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #45
118. A retired state worker taking home more than when he was working?
Sure.

But seriously, if my parents had worked hard and were able to retire that comfortably, I'd be happy for them. You seem bitter. I find that sad.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #45
267. Our family vacations consisted of NO hot showers at all and NO indoor plumbing. We would go to
my dad's uncles house every year for 2 weeks. He lived waaaay out in the out back in West Virginia. They had an outhouse and cold running water in the kitchen only. We had no TV at all and radio on a good day. Yet oddly I still have some fond memories of this god forsaken place. My dad enjoyed it because there were absolutely no distractions for him, so they rest of us had to make due, which we did. Oh and we always drove there.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. In Europe, vacations are a matter of course. Apparently, vacations are too good for U.S. proles.
Another day older and deeper in debt.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
83. Yep. It should be part of learning about the world or at least your own country.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #48
197. In Europe they live in tiny houses and drive one car, if that.
And squirrel away huge portions of their paycheck to take their yearly holidays. We have hosted numerous exchange students over the years who weren't from wealthy families, just ones who have put travel as a higher priority than videogames and mcmansions.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #197
217. actually we get paid money for vacations...
In holland it was normal to get 8% bonus money, called vacation money, which was released in june to spend on a holiday.
granted it's taxed at 50%, but still, it's 8% of your yearly.
That and the 25-30 days vacation EVERYONE gets =]

I would point out that the Euro has been kicking the Dollar's ass for 7 years now, peaking at 1.6 :1 at one point.

I'm starting to miss it already... at least it never got as cold and snowey as the tundra here in MN LOL
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
189. Bingo.
The sense of entitlement on this forum, for example.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #189
246. I hate to pop your bubble but there are countries on the planet
that recognize vacations as being vital to employees....just as they do healthcare annd education. You are correct that vacations aren't an entitlement in the U.S. but when many, myself included, have no paid time off and work six days a week to keep our heads barely above water, I don't like being told: if you can't afford a vacation you don't take one....like I didn't know. If I were younger, I would leave the U.S. just as our bailout funds have been doing.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #246
250. It's the haves vs. the have-nots...
the sense of entitlement has to do with many folks being caught up in not being able to distinguish needs vs. wants, then whining when they can't make ends meet while making hundreds of thousands more than the average American. Those are the people with whom I take issue.

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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #250
273. Sorry. Guess I'm always on the defensive these days. Thanks
for your kind explanation.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
115. I don't think I have ever paid $200 a night for a hotel
That's freakin insane.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #30
163. $500 a day for a family of 5 at Disneyland
with "meals" and lodging... :rofl:
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
186. Sorry, some of us never have taken a fancy vacation like that.
The most we've spent is probably a little over 1K for a week-long trip, including food, gas and the occasional motel for 6 of us.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
91. $130 a month on the DOG? WTF?
Does he have a masseuse? I wish I had that amount to use on my dog -- she could use a vacation LOL!
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Large breed dogs can eat that much easily
My cats' food and litter runs about $100/mo (Rx food).
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
129. Indeed. We are planning a family vacation in 2012 to Israel
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 09:20 AM by Hawkeye-X
and we're SAVING money for that purpose. Includes tickets and possible trips to Europe for a week or so.

And it will cost us about roughly 4-6k.

My wife is squirreling a lot of money away too.

And we're not planning anything much except for an occasional trip to NY twice a year to visit family. I usually stay home.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
155. Rich people don't get rich by spending all their money
I can see several areas where this hypothetical rich family could cut WAY back.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #155
166. real rich people are penny pinchers
this family isn't rich. They're high-income spendthrifts.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #166
182. The one REALLY rich family I have known
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 12:40 PM by XemaSab
had three kids and lived in a three-bedroom house (yes, it was in Sausalito, but no McMansion this) and their son (who also grew up to be rich) drove a Ford Contour for about 5 years, then "upgraded" to a used Audi.

They knew how to live well, but they certainly knew how to save their pennies.

(And on edit: I think Sausalito was as close as dad could live to work and still have the kids go to public school. :P )
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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
175. A family vacation? What is that please?
I haven't had one of those for quite some time!
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #175
234. Me niether. But then I dont make a tenth what they do. nt
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
241. That's not that bad for an income of 250K.
My last vacation was a cruise and it cost $2,500K for the room alone, not including the offshore and on ship expenses. That was for 2 people.

And if you are planning on flying somewhere (depending on the location) you could be looking at almost 1k per ticket round trip (not even first class).

That being said, some of the expenses listed are rather silly and I would have no sympathy for this hypothetical couple. Of course, I don't doubt many like them exist. I know several people with high incomes who are very wasteful. Then there are some who in addition to maxing out their 401k contributions save an additional percentage of their income for the unknown and don't buy 500K houses just because they can afford it and end up spending an additional 10k for it's maintenance.
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Let them eat cake kind of story
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. I know that it's hard to feel sorry for these people, but the expenses are really higher for some
of these items, and most of us make a lot less than a quarter mill a year. I live in northern Virginia, near DC. and our mortgages and expenses are killing us, and we're not really saving anywhere near that amount for retirement. We're broke, really broke.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. yes, most of us make a lot less than a quarter of a million. that's my point.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:23 AM by Hannah Bell
looking at that budget they have a hell of a lot of room to make cuts.

most people don't.

i was doing some volunteer work today & one of the temp employees at the place i was volunteering was very happy to take 3 boxes of used & musty-smelling children's items that we didn't think we could sell at our fundraiser. they were going to be christmas gifts for her grandchildren. i could feel that she was in a world of hurt.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. We have zero room to make cuts.
Let's see, what can we do without out? No retirement, stop the kid's college fund, or no health care coverage? Stop eating or stop fueling the cars? Stop commuting and paying insurance, repairs or stop working? Our damned cable and phones are over $400 a month!

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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You can survive without cable TV.
Or, so I've heard.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Try telling the wife and kids that.
Sure.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
94. Netflix.
$10 a month.

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
191. Our family of 6 could easily cut the tv...
Netflix is the best! Get the rest on the internet.

BTW, we used to live in NoVA (Fairfax) and know that you can cut back your utilities farther. It's just that everybody else has stuff and it's hard to live like a pauper in the land of the wealthy. Trust me, most people there are just PRETENDING to be rich and are maxed out on their mortgages and credit cards like nobody's business.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
204. Netflix, Hulu, library rental DVD's, over-the-air channels
There are LOTS of solutions to the problem of no cable TV.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
242. Just cut it. Hell, I didn't have a TV for much of my childhood so I READ BOOKS
for entertainment. Can you imagine? Oh, the horror of doing what was considered a privilege enjoyed only by the educated classes in centuries past! :sarcasm: But really; cable is a complete waste, and it's a good way to ensure that you along with the rest of your family get a daily dose of corporate propaganda that keeps you subdued and perpetually consuming. Netflix provides more than enough entertainment-commercial free! And there's Hulu. Cable is for those with money to flush and brain cells to burn.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. My GF grew up so poor they didn't have books
And the government didn't have a ration plan for twins, so her and her sister had to split one kid's rations..... never mind not having a TV.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
143. You can thrive without cable tv. n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. i'm not talking about you. unless you make $250K & your budget resembles that of the
family in the example.

in which case, you have room to make cuts.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. I don't make that much but some of my expenses exceed those.
We have no room to make cuts without drastically altering things. Believe me, this is no life of luxury for two working people in one of the most expensive places in America to live.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "without drastically altering things" -- like cutting the cable? i don't consider that a drastic
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:46 AM by Hannah Bell
alteration.

a drastic alteration is moving into your grandma's basement with your three kids. which is what one lady i know has had to do since her husband got laid off & started drinking, & they got foreclosed on.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. My grandma moved in with us. Really, where are we supposed to go?
Won't go into the details, but I got laid off for a while and we went so far into debt we're screwed, permanently. Already went through drastic changes.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. i don't want to make the discussion about you. i'm not into that kind of thing.
if you were laid off for awhile then you're making up for lost income, & i don't know your individual situation. and you don't make $250K.

the average couple making $250K isn't "poor". that is the point of the op.

& looking over the expenses of this hypothetical family, most people who *don't* make $250K can see all kinds of places to make cuts. indeed, 1/3 of couples clear less than this couple puts into their 401Ks.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
193. Cutting cable isn't drastic.
Your family will learn to socialize with each other again.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I love dogs. I rescued four, but don't spend $130 A MONTH on all four of them
WTF?

One of my dogs is even on medical dog food and we don't spend $130 a month on him!
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. We had a dog that we loved who had shoulder surgery and then developed cancer.
We easily spent $2500 a year on Mr. Barley during his last year.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I understand that, but, the scenario above didn't necessarily
include sick dog time. I think it's mostly fru-fru dog time.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. in his *last* year. did you spend $1560K on him in a *routine* year? because that's what this
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:42 AM by Hannah Bell
budget is supposed to represent. usual expenses.

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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. Thanks.
That was the point I was trying to make.

I love my dogs. They get gifts on their "birthdays" (they're rescues, so we make up what day their birthdays are), they get Christmas gifts and I either cook for my sexually abused dog (yep, you read that right) or buy his special food so he doesn't get bladder stones.

I still don't spend that much on him a month unless he needs some anti-biotics.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
57. I think I was giving my cat insulin for about 3 years.
At one point I was giving her fluids in an IV bag too. The insulin itself was about $128 a vial iirc. When she got ill she started getting really finicky in her old age. I was buying pretty much all canned cat foods and not Friskies or any other normal grocery store.

Before that, one of our cats got really ill and had to go to the emergency room because she couldn't breathe. That cost several hundred dollars to save her, but then we found she had a tumor that would kill her so we had her put down.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. That was nice of you.
To drag out a dogs life like that. Real kind.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
146. When a dog gets cancer you euthanize him.
It's unkind to draw that suffering out.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
36. Just hope they don't become diabetic.
Just establishing a curve costs over $100 a visit. And then you do it once a week til they can figure out the optimal insulin. That doesn't count the syringes nor the insulin.

Or how's about having surgical pins put in to save the stray cat that just got hit by a car? $2300 over ten years ago but it was worth it. That cat lived a long life with those pins.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. that's the difference between the upper middle class & the rest.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Well, they can move out of the 3,000 a month house, nix the 4,000 vacation...etc
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Move where? The average house is $400,000 near DC.
And, you don't get a lot of house for that.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Oh well... if families can live in that area on 30,000 a year, surely this one can on 250,000
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Also, my sister has a 400,000 home and her family of four makes 65,000 a year
And they seem to do fine.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. That's a grossly exaggerated number, because the median rent is $1k, and median income is $60k.
You have a couple of thousand million dollar homes and they'll really screw up the data. Trulia has the average house price (for their listing) at $700k. Just goes to show you.

I found several dozen houses on there under $200k. Shall I link them for you or can you stop spreading this BS?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
77. The average home in Hawaii is $560,000 last time I checked.
You will never find a house here at $200,000 unless it is ready to tear down. That won't even buy a one bedroom condo in town.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #77
92. I wasn't talking to you.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #77
135. Olive Ave Wahiawa, HI 96786 $155,000
2 Bed 1 Bath 584 Sq .07 Acres

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Olive-...


$360,000
988 Hanau St Wahiawa, HI 96786
2 Bed 1 Bath7 29 Sq Ft 0.11 Acres




$269,900
92-225 Awaawahea Way Kapolei, HI 96707
3 Bed 1.5 Bath 1,776 Sq Ft 0.09 Acres
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/92-225...



239 Properties Found in Honolulu HI Between $100,000 - $200,000
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Honolu...
All condos of course
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #135
144. The assessed value on house #1 is $289,000
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 10:18 AM by dkf
That $185,000 is the short sale price meaning the seller is willing to take that but that bank may not be and the bank gets the final say. The first short sale showing I went to the realtor explained that they had numerous offers at the price listed and even above that but the bank refused to sell at those prices. The realtor was showing the house partly to get the names of people who might be looking for a realtor because she didn't have much hope of an actual sale.

That had me walking out shaking my head thinking It was basically a scam.

But doesn't that make you laugh? $289,000 for a three bedroom with 701 square feet of living area? That is ridiculous. And Wahiawa is a thirty minute drive to town in good times, but two hours in normal work day traffic. I think I read Honolulu has the worst traffic in the US.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #144
149. What about the third one for 269K with 1700 sq ft?
that seems like a good deal
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #149
158. There's no MLS on it and it's not showing up on my active list on the site I normally use.
But if you look at the average house price for that area it is $541,000. This one seems an anomaly.

I'll check it out later though. That actually looks interesting.
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LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
106. Yes, you can find those homes. Mostly in high-crime areas you would not really want to live in.
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LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
107. Very true. Ours was that much. I am grateful our housing allowance allowed us to
get the home. We are very fortunate. When we lived here before, we had to live in an apartment and experienced crime/break-ins. Not fun.

I know I am very lucky to be living in a home (way out past Dale City, but it's a house!) and I'm not saying "poor me" at all - I know at this age (50) and with my husband having a PhD, we are one of the very very lucky ones.

I guess the point is, what is going on with our nation when only the top 5 percent or less can live what we traditionally think of as a nice middle-class lifestyle?

Sure, of course you can get by on less - people live in tents after all and "get by" sort of - but what I wonder is, why don't the majority of us have a life like the one portrayed by the story? If that is "middle class" then why don't most of us live like that?

I've lived in Europe, many years ago. People there (in the Netherlands at least) DO seem to live what looks like a nice middle-class lifestyle. I mean MOST of them, not just the upper 5 percent.

So.....

I guess what I see from this article is that the nice middle-class lifestyle is going bye-bye for pretty much all of us. We will be nothing but serfs and billionaires in another decade or two I think.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
198. Then you either rent or move to a more liveable area.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
114. Well they could, if they actually existed. But they don't, so they can't.
This is a fictitious family.
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LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
101. Yup, living expenses here in NoVa are outrageous. Don't like paying that much but
this is where my husband is stationed, so we cope. Makes me sick how much everything costs, though. Even the groceries cost more around here :(
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. Where can I donate?
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. Wah
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:43 AM by blueamy66
My heart bleeds purple piss for these people.

Why have kids if you cannot afford them? I do not have kids for just this reason.

Buy a house within your means.

I could go on and on.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. you would have great kids, Merry Christmas !
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. I am surprised that nowhere in their tale of woe do they mention
The damn condo fees on their second home.

Or the country club membership fees - and on 250K, they are probably not eligible for a first tier country club.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #51
67. Or the rental on the spaceship they use for trip to Saturn.
(the people in the story are FICTIONAL).
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. couples who make $250K a year aren't fictional, though. and this is the ft's best
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:16 AM by Hannah Bell
attempt at a budget that shows the plebes how rough those folks have it.

pardon the plebes for laughing.

ps: the text clearly says it's a hypothetical couple. you seem not to grasp the point.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. I suggest we find the author of the article and give them a STRONG talking-to.
How DARE they.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
248. Why do you hate America? n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
46. as for the $5000 a year in parking, i see huntington ny (long island) has transit:
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 02:15 AM by Hannah Bell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington_Area_Rapid_Tran...

man, one thing the upper-middle in "expensive" areas doesn't pay extra for is bus service: TEN CENTS FOR A TRANSFER?

Them's 1980s prices.

Their system connects with several others. I bet connects with rail service to NYC somewhere.

or maybe this couple could carpool with someone?

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #46
85. My parking for one car is more than $2,500 / year.
I would consider the bus but I sometimes leave at 9 or 10 at night and just walking to the car feels unsafe much less sitting at the bus stop. There aren't many people out at that time of night.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #46
108. I pay $40 a week for public transport on the DC Metro
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 07:04 AM by justiceischeap
That's $120 a month and I walk to the Metro station.

I am one of those people who live in the DC metro area and make away less than 3 figures and manage to live a decent life without living in a high crime area.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
49. The poor dears...
:sarcasm:

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. glad you erased the "wide stance" comment. this has nothing to do with legislators in bathrooms.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 02:57 AM by Hannah Bell
but you mean what the financial times is trying to sell, don't you?

which is the idea that a couple making $253K a year is "poor" because their total taxes = 29.9% of their income.

my total tax bill is about 25% of my income & i make much, much less than this couple. & i'm not bitching about it. and i would count it as a blessing to be able to put 15K a year into a 401K, let alone 33K.

there have been plenty of posts at DU about some low-income woman having the *gall* to buy a fancy birthday cake for her kids with food stamps or something like that. the media floods us with such stories.

turnabout = fair play.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
59. ...
:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

That sums up my feelings on this. They shouldn't bitch until they make $12,000/yr, like we Walmart employees do.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
60. The saddest part is that they still owe money on an education they apparently got nothing
out of. This hypothetical couple can't figure out what they need to cut out?

And "The Fiscal Times" editorial staff saw fit to run this as a solid article? Fail.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. and title it "poor on $250K". and apparently believe their lead, as the tone is sympathetic through
out.

media = completely out of touch.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. +1.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
64. The most pathetic part is...YOU PEOPLE. Did you miss the word 'hypothetical?'
Do you guys REALLY get that lathered up about people who don't exist?

Jesus. Get a life.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. lol. you're johnny on the spot on threads about welfare moms buying steak with food stamps though.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:10 AM by Hannah Bell
important stuff, there.

interesting to me the sympathetic tenor of this article v. the hectoring tone adopted in the ubiquitous stories about the financially-strapped cubicle rat who doesn't brown-bag it, the black couple who bought "too much house" & got foreclosed on, low-income people who buy cigarettes or lottery tickets, the food stamp recipient who dares to buy some luxury item "above her station," etc.

interesting to me also that despite trying their best to illustrate the straightened finances of the bottom of the top 3%, a budget that allots $40,000 to various kinds of savings & $600 a month to "gifts & entertainment" (& adds even more for cable tv & internet on top of that) is the best they can do.
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. I suggest we FIND that hypothetical motherfucker and TAX his ass 100%.
Just THINK of the revenue!

:eyes:
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. Hannah, the 'advice' about clipping coupons & crap like that always cracks me up
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 03:25 AM by Mimosa
For years, I used to clip coupons like a maniac when I could afford a newspaper subscription. Now a newspaper subscription is sort of dumb and wasteful. The ATL journal Constitution has always been a BAD paper anyway for local news and it's not environmentally responsible to but bunches of newspaper (ATL doesn't have a recycling program for such) when one can get the news online.

I must go back to the article and check how much this financially strapped family in their big fancy schmancy house contributes to good causes or charities. I bet I beat them on with less than a quarter of their income.

Dreamer tatum, your snark about taxing anybody -hypothetical in this case- 100% is just dumb.

There are plenty of yuppie types who live very much like the couple described in the article. I've known a few. These are people whose 'needs' are largely status related. A lot of in the Beltway Washington types are the same. They are clueless about how people making under $90,000 and especially under $50,000 live. And they sure as hell don't want to find out.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. no, the budget doesn't include charitable contributions. or trips to the hairdresser or any of that
frippery. It's a tight, no-nonsense budget.

i supposed they could take it out of the $600 a month for entertainment & gifts or the $40,000 they put into various kinds of savings, though.

yeah, the coupon thing -- since coupons are mainly for name brands or prepared foods or fast foods, i rarely found them useful -- because i rarely bought that stuff -- house brands & bulk foods being cheaper. and i hate to drive all over town hunting down "bargains" -- seems like the running around doesn't make up for the "savings".
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. You nailed it...
These are people whose 'needs' are largely status related.


After all they wouldn't want their "friends" to see them as middle class or god-forbid, poor, would they? :sarcasm:
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katnapped Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #78
100. Yes, what would the neighbors think?
God forbid! :sarcasm:
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #65
88. Where is this budget for the $40,000?
Must have missed it.

Can a family of that income afford an iPhone? It's become a necessity to me but dang it adds up.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
86. thank goodness the R's are around to help them out with tax breaks
and capital gains protection
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
90. Additionally, the author has no understanding of how progressive taxation works
If Obama and the Democrats' plan to raise taxes on income over $250k, the Jones' would not have had their taxes raised. In fact, they would have gotten a tax cut under Obama.

So lets say they make another $10k next year. Currently that additional $10k would be taxed at 35% or $3500. Under Obama's plan they would pay 39.6% on that $10k which amounts to 3960. So yes Obama would be raising their taxes a whopping $460. Lets say they make an additional $50,000. Obama would be raising their taxes an additional $2300. Of course they would have $30,200 left over if they made another $50k. They could still take three family vacations and increase their 401k contribution by 2/3rds.

Furthermore, there aren't a whole lot of jobs where a family can make $250k a year in Twin Falls, Idaho. High paying jobs are generally going to be concentrated in affluent areas. Yes there are going to be a lucky few people who are in a lower tax bracket than you who have a higher standard of living than you because they were lucky enough to find a really great paying job in Twin Falls, Idaho. The fact that those lucky few get a better deal isn't really a good basis for a tax system, though.
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #90
156. Yep. I don't even know why they are using THESE figures.
These people aren't anywhere close to the 250 mark after all their deductions and write-offs. But the author knows this. He/she just can't seem to bring himself to write "Down and out on $310,000 or $325,000 so he figures he can be cynical enough to say $250k and his idiot readers won't catch it.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
95. I am amazed I survived for so long on so much less! Those poor people...
:eyes:


mark
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #95
113. Bear in mind that these people don't actually exist. (nt)
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #113
120. If you read about some Hollywood divorce settlements,etc, they are
probably more real than you think...


mark
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. So someone should start a thread about a real example, instead of posting fiction (nt)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #122
201. tell the financial times.
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Creative Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
96. I will never understand the hatred some have for those who work hard and as a result,
are successful.

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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. No one resents that. They just want them to pay their
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 06:16 AM by RegieRocker
fair share of taxes (same percentage no loop holes) as they do. What people resent though is the status quo (good ol boys) keeping them down. Arse kissers. People that don't pay others a fair wage. A trash truck driver works hard so does a ditch digger. They don't make $250,000 a year. I know people that make $250,000 a year and they don't work as hard as them. So maybe just maybe they resent them not working as hard as them and making more. Did you ever think of that?
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Creative Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #99
111. Believe it or not, there is a different level of expertise required to do some jobs than others.
A trash truck driver cannot do a dentist's job. On the other hand, anyone can drive a trash truck.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #111
123. Have you ever driven a trash truck?
How are you qualified to judge the amount of knowledge and expertise necessary for the job?
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Creative Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #123
134. Can't say I have, but I'm 100% certain that I could.
Because I have the ability to think objectively.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #134
178. I take it you're up on all of the hazardous waste regulations.
It takes more than driving, y'know.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #111
150. Anyone?
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 10:27 AM by lumberjack_jeff
No. 80% of the people lack the physical fitness required to collect the trash. Including most dentists. Nor would they choose to expose themselves to the hazardous materials which shorten their lives. Nor would they get up at 4am for the privilege.

Spare us the classist bullshit.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #150
162. Can you fill a cavity?
the more training and education a job takes, and the fewer people there are who can perform your job, the more money you generally make.

It's not classist. It's just the way modern society works.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #162
172. *snerk*
Umm... I get no complaints. :D
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #150
218. I can imagine it.
I wake up tomorrow, and garbage truck drivers are being offered 250k per year. I proceed to quit my job (I have an advanced degree, 10 years of school beyond HS, and don't even make near that....) and apply to my local WM branch. But suddenly, my neighbor (the sneaky bastard) comes in there and says he'll do it for 100k! So I says fine, "I'll do it for 75k!". But then right after that, some other guy comes in and says he'll do the job for 50k? WTF??? Really, 50K? So at that point, I beg for my old job back. I'm not sure what the salary got down to in the end, but based on the line I saw into the place it was probably a pretty brutal bidding process.

Now, try that same analogy with an ER surgeon or something like that (probably around a 250k salary if not more...)....here we go:

I wake up tomorrow, and ER surgeons are being offered 250k per year. I proceed to quit my job (I have an advanced degree, 10 years of school beyond HS, and don't even make near that....) and apply to my local hospital. But suddenly, my neighbor (the sneaky bastard) comes in there and says he'll do it for 100k! So I says fine, "I'll do it for 75k!". But then right after that, some other guy comes in and says he'll do the job for 50k? WTF??? Really, 50K? So at that point, the hospital looks at all of us and says, "show me your medical degree, your 4 year residency as well as your 5 year internship". We all look at each other and calmly walk out the door.



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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #218
222. If the American Garbagehaulers Association
Strictly controlled how many garbagehaulers were produced by the qualified garbagehaulers schools, and lobbied congress to make a federal law against handling garbage without a license, you'd see garbage truck drivers making $250k a year... and whining for more.

Doctors don't make big salaries because their skills are unique. They make big salaries because they have an omnipotent union.
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #150
256. +1
awesome post
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #111
167. The 'elitist' speaks...
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 11:23 AM by ProudDad
:puke:

You haven't said anything worth reading yet...

Off to pavulon-land with you!

Bye-bye :hi:
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slutticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #99
214. It's not only about hard work
It's also about education level and responsibility.

When a garbage truck driver goes home, he goes home. Someone making a 250k salary probably has their blackberry going off every ten minutes. You're never really off the clock.

Do you really believe a garbage truck driver should get the same salary as the POTUS? A fair living wage, of course....but 250k, come on....




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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #96
121. Can you say they work harder than me?
I think I deserve $250,000 a year.
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Creative Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #121
133. I don't know you--how could I say that?
If you think you deserve 250k, you should make that your goal and proceed to achieve it.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #96
200. And I'll never understand the whining of those who have money and yet it never seems to be enough.
BTW, the OP's "family" is fictitious, LOL.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
97. 30,000 and poor is a joke to many - idea of wealth depends on a persons perspective
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
213. 97% of the us population makes less than $250K. that's a fact regardless of perspective.
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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
98. Aww poor little babies!
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 06:22 AM by RegieRocker
Oh and one more thing tell them they should have refinanced to 5% that would drop their mortgage to $2100.00 saving them $900.00 a month more than some people make clear after taxes. Hah!
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
109. Let's cutoff unemployment benfits so we can ease the tax burden on these poor people.
I was listening to RW radio on my drive in to work this morning. They were complaining about all the people who are choosing unemployment so they can stay home and play video games. :eyes:
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
112. So we are supposed to get outraged about this non-existent, imaginary, hypothetical family?
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 08:39 AM by Nye Bevan
I can see why they are hypothetical. Who in the suburbs pays $5000 a year to park their cars? Any DU dog-lovers spend $130 per month on their dog? I love my dog and I barely spend a quarter of that. And who would spend $520 per month eating out if they were concerned about their cashflow?

Perhaps when this round of outrage has been exhausted I'll start a thread about an imaginary couple earning $1 million per year but who blow it on caviar, Cuban cigars, and maintaining their 60 foot yacht. And I'll pretend that they spend $1500 per month on their dog! And another $1000 per month on their cat! So we can all vent *even more* outrage! Hey, this is fun!



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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #112
148. No, we're supposed to be outraged over the very real article which created this straw man
to beat the rest of us over the head for our misplaced hatred of the rich.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #112
202. Doggie day care costs $$ here.
Or they can belong to the dog park and pay at least half that amount. I know numerous people who do that wit their dogs, lol.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
119. Wow... After a year with that income and my current lifestyle I'd have almost...
$250,000 left.

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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #119
124. You are real. That family is hypothetical (nt).
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here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #119
128. I know, what they spend on daycare a month...
Is our monthly income!
But we are happy and comfortable, hell we even have a kid and pets!
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #128
136. Well, actually, they *don't* spend that on daycare, as they are fictitious (nt)
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #119
131. Well no you wouldn't.
To start with taxes tax a major chunk, around 40% total, so start with 150,000. In order to earn 250,000/yr you have to live somewhere where there are jobs that pay 250,000/yr, and that means the high rent urban areas. Add at least another 50,000/yr for housing expenses. Now you are down to 100,000. Still a very healthy chunk of change. If you have one kid in a private university you will be paying full freight on that tuition and that will take half of your 100,000. I agree that you have 50,000 in discretionary income and therefore quite a comfortable life.

What you aren't is rich.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #131
157. I distinctly said, "my current life style". n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #157
220. Fine then you start with 150K. nt.
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sadbear Donating Member (799 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
125. Let the kids pay their for their college
It builds character, and makes them appreciate it more, too. That frees up a few K's per year. Maybe dad can get that boat now and have enough left over for the docking fees.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #125
160. Or, make them go to a state university.
The quality of education in most is on par with private universities.

Once again, it's just a status issue.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #160
209. but that becomes a job issue too
it's harder to get that $120,000 a year job with a degree from a mere state school, unless the degree is an MBA.
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FLPanhandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
126. We are that family of four(or close to it)...feel free to hate on us.
Those of you complaining about the hypothetical family can now have a real target.

The Pet budget, entertainment budget, vacation budget (sometimes even more), eating out budget, college education budget, and insurance budget are about right for us.

Slight differences are only I work, so no child care expenses.
Our taxes in Florida are much lower.
No parking costs.

Here's the thing. I don't mind paying more taxes! I have friends who make much more than I do and they mostly don't mind either.




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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
127. There's a lot of "suck" in this thread.
A fair sample of "awful," too.

Be nice.
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
132. they don't just have 4k saved
they have some equity in their home
8k saved per year for college for the kids
33k saved in 401K

give me a break. They could save more if
they used public transportation instead of driving and parking
Taking a cheaper vacation or a staycation
Eating out less
How much are they dropping at Starbucks every month?
There are lots of ways they could trim their budget.

People live their money. No matter how much they make.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #132
137. Why all this advice for a *hypothetical* *fictional* family? (nt)
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 09:52 AM by Nye Bevan
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #137
169. Because the *hypothetical* family was designed to elicit sympathy
and anyone with a little numbers sense can see that the finances were rigged to make it seem like 250K families are struggling just like 30K families, hypothetically speaking of course.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #169
176. But it's a *stupid* hypothetical example.
What suburban family spends $5000 per year for parking?
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #176
179. I agree that it's a stupid example, but not because of the parking estimate.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 12:25 PM by Gormy Cuss
It assumes two working adults. If one drives to Manhattan for work that parking fee wouldn't be out of range for monthly parking fees in midtown and downtown. I know commuters who drive from LI and pay $300-$400/month for parking ($3600-$4800 per year.)


eta: of course, that doesn't mean they are typical surburbanites.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. I know many people who live in Long Island and commute to Manhattan
but none of them drive in. Why doesn't the hypothetical family take commuter rail like real people?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #181
196. because the ft was desperately trying to spend all their income to show
families making $250K could hardly make it.

which is my point.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #181
238. Probably because not all of the cities included have viable mass transit.
FWIW, the monthly fare on LIRR to Penn Sta from Huntington is $274, for $3288/year, and that's for one commuter. Two commuters and it would exceed the 5K parking estimate and allow plenty of room for mileage costs.

The bigger flaws in the estimate are including retirement, vacation, and college planning as if they're fixed costs rather than (smart) options for people with plenty of disposable income.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
142. Guess these hypothetical people will just have to learn to live within their hypothetical means
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 10:14 AM by devilgrrl
:popcorn:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
145. Poor choices abound in that hypothetical scenario
:rofl:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
147. They're welcome to spend their after-tax dollars as they see fit.
A hypothesized inability bordering on brain damage to do it prudently isn't an argument to lower their taxes.

I will ask though, why is an income tax on this rich family so much a better idea than an income tax on Washington State's rich?
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
152. Hahahahahahaha. That's what is so great about these stories. Come back and tell me you are having
a hard time when you can't swing $500/mo in rent, $200 in utilities, and $200 for all auto expenses.

What a joke.

"Gosh, I have so little money left after putting away $33K for retirement, paying my housekeeper, going to Disney World, and buying $250 of new clothes every month - I'm practically homeless!"
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
153. Long Island is WAY overpriced.
Home values are unreasonable. Property taxes as insane. Start at $1,000 a month for a house and go from there. There's things they can do to save money, but both parents work. I can understand why they need help cleaning. Maximizing their 401K and saving for their kids college are good investments in their future.

I live on LI, so I understand where they're coming from.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
164. They should be Republicans..
and we should tax the shit out of them to help pay for their good lives.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
165. The REAL problem isn't the USAmerican "middle class" dilema...
The real problem is that these are symptoms of the fact that humans have overshot the carrying capacity of the Earth...

And the "benefits" of that rape are accrued by the very few to the detriment of the rest...


Austerity is the new corporate/political buzzword...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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IMATB Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
168. Have any of you seen that WE channel show
Downsized ?

You wanna get mad, watch a real family. It will make you not only mad but sick to watch the way they live.

One thing, you WILL hate the mother.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
170. All this caterwauling about a hypothetical family, who cares, vet the source
Peter George Peterson is the founder of Fiscal Times and as much as they say they are non-partisan, they aren't, this is the guy pushing for the use of Social Security funds to cover the US deficit.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #170
199. yep.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #170
272. it just clicked -- you mean *the* PETE PETERSON.
Edited on Fri Dec-24-10 12:13 PM by Hannah Bell
i didn't realize he founded the ft.

wish i'd know that when i wrote the op.

makes the article even more telling.
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
173. This is completely ignorant of real world costs and budgeting
Here is a more realistic example of a couple with two kids 3&5 living in a 4bd home in a good school district in LA, but not a really nice area such as Santa Monica or Manhattan Beach. In those areas, the mortgage would be $1.5MM.

Often, with big salaries, comes big expenses.

Gross $250,000

Pre-tax savings $30,000
AGI $220,000
Tax 22% Federal & 8% State $66,000
After Tax Income $154,000

One time/year expenses
Car insurance $2,000
Clothing $1,500
Homeowners Insurance $900
Vacations $4,000

Monthly Income after 1 time expenses $12,133

Mortgage @899,000 $4,826
Property Taxes $885
Maintenance @1% $708
Student Loans (100k @ 80K) $950
Health Insurance $250
Car Loans (2 cars Ford Fusion @20k and Camry @ 24k) $810
Food $1,500
Day Care 1 Kid $1,000
Entertainment/cable/phone $200
Savings for college education $500


Remaining $503
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
174. Poor things n/t
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
177. Better title: Communities where you can't afford to live on $250K
The article is only "discovering" that some communities are out of bounds for all but the wealthy. Not really news.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
180. Gawds how awful for them!
Making only a fraction of that {40,000 gross and most of that goes into my business), living pay check to pay check and being unable to save anything much less put money into a 401k or "buy a home in an area appropriate to my income class", I totally am unable to understand their troubles with having to get by on only 5 times my income.

Maybe if these fold would let me get 250,000 a year I could understand where they are coming from.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #180
183. Do you realize that this family does not, in fact, exist?
As in, it's a hypothetical situation?
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #183
210. why do some people think they are making a profound point
when they keep saying that?

They aren't.

You aren't.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #210
215. Because the poster said that he is "unable to understand their troubles".
Why waste time trying to "understand the troubles" of every *fictional* family that people come up with? You could dream up thousands of fictional scenarios, but what's the point of "trying to understand the troubles" of people who don't exist?

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #215
225. Perhaps because stories and parables are used all the time
to make a point. So the person was hypothetical? In that way they were representing MANY people who make between $150,000 and $300,000 who live in those metro areas. So the person does not actually exist, the people represented by that supposedly typical person DO exist and the original story was meant to conjure up sympathy for those poor oppressed rich people just trying to make it in America.

The issues are real and could perhaps be discussed without some people continually making the irrelevant existential and semantic non-point that "this person does not really exist".

At least it could be discussed in some ideal world which also does not really exist, but could, if people would behave better.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #183
251. I know we have a sarcasm smiley
but do I seriously have to use it EVERY TIME, even when it's glaringly obvious?

In any case, hypothetical or not, if the point was the those making 250k are somehow struggling, I am not sure I am all they sympathetic.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
185. FYI, An Annual Income of $250,000 Is Indeed A Lot of Money for NYC
The overwhelming majority of the population of NYC makes far, far less then $250,000 a year, and we survive.

Contrary to popular opinion, we're not all bankers.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
190. holy cow, they;re just idiots and still have too much money
$10K a year to have a maid clean your house? sheesh, there's a fortune saved right there by teaching the kids to chip in and do their own chores

what's more useless than an adult who can't do their own chores and teaches their kids the same???

$1600 a month for baby sitting and camp for the brats? $1600 A MONTH????

and there's still $4K left for a separate "family" vacation that doesn't include the camping costs?

$5K a year to park their car? what's wrong w. parking it in the driveway like the rest of us?

sheesh, these fools are truly struggling to spend all of their money, it's ridiculous

$600 A MONTH on gifts and entertainment????? wait, $7200 a year on gifts/entertainment? how much of that "entertainment" is going straight up their nose?

where's all that money going, except to ruin the character of their spoiled brats?
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blueamy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #190
257. But one HAS to have brats.
It's an American thing, I guess.

Blows my mind...
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
203. The article says that this family spends $2,679 a year on the gas tax, what the hell do they drive?
I could see a typical family of four spending about that much or a more on gas, but if they are spending that much on just the gas tax alone then they must be using a tank as the family vehicle. The gas tax in New York is 44.6 cents per gallon, that means that in order to spend $2,679 on the gas tax in a year the family would have to burn through more than 115 gallons of gas every single week.

Either this family wastes way too much fuel, or the authors of this article were so determined to make it look like the tax burden on the rich was too high that they completely pulled a number out of their ass and pretended it was realistic.
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #203
235. Probably Two SUV's at least. nt
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
207.  "$10,000 a year for "maintenance & cleaning" of their home" = DEMENTED.
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 01:45 PM by WinkyDink
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
211. This story isn't really told correctly.
Basically these folks save a lot of money and spend a lot of money so they have nothing left. That isn't a problem if you can put 30K into a 401K every year.
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
212. Why is it that...
1) politicians really want the lower middle class and poor to sacrifice?

2) the disconnect between politics and household economics is completely lost on these people?


$65,000 dollars in student loan debt? This is the new indentured servitude that the idiots these idiots voted for have created. I mean, in liue of raising your taxes, you and your children became indentured servants to banks? Yep, the people who won't raise your taxes are sticking it to you in soooo many ways that you'd only wished they had just raised your taxes.
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Courtesy Flush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
216. Why doesn't that $33,000 they put in savings count?
They say they only have $4,963, but look at all they set aside. They really have $37,963 left over.

My wife and I have about half their income, and put nearly half ours in the bank every year. Learn to budget!
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
219. Now that's my kind of poverty.
I would love to have the luxury to pay a dime for the "maintenance and cleaning" of my home. Not to mention the luxury of saving any money for any thing.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
221. wait -- don't we WANT them to spend it all?
here I've been hearing complaints that the rich don't spend enough to stimulate the economy and instead save it all. Now we have an example of a family that spends, spends, spends (albeit fictionally) and you criticize them for doing what you want them to do in the first place?

So, what should they do? Spend lots and pay housekeepers, dog groomers, retailers, airlines, etc. etc?

Or keep their money in the bank where it doesn't do anything more than make them richer?

What are we asking of them? (I mean, besides to pay more in taxes)?
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WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #221
224. I'll pick at this low hanging fruit...
How 'bout, stop your effing whining and asking those less fortunate to do all the sacrificing.

Besides, things are exactly the way they are supposed to be in that the idiots they voted for wouldn't have it any other way: in lieu of raising taxes, we will invent so many ways to gauge you that you wish your taxes had been raised.

That's what I got.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #224
274. Who's whining? Just asking: what DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO?
spend it or save it?

This is, of course, a fictional family.

Everyone is ragging on this nonexistent family for their choices. Some say they're idiots for spending it. Others say they're selfish bastards for saving so much and not helping to stimulate the economy.

Is there anything this fictional family could do that would meet anyone's approval here?
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
223. where was their Top Ramen soup bill? I missed that one

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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #223
237. You'd would have to let them know what Top Ramen is first. nt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
226. Anyone that makes 250k a year or more knows nothing about
real survival. They wouldn't last three weeks in my shoes. Pathetic.
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WillowTree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #226
249. Riiiiiiight. Because if they make $250K/year, it stands to reason that they ALWAYS did,
No chance they ever lived for years in your shoes before they got to the $200,000 bracket.

How very narrow some people's view of the world is.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #249
255. No of course not, what a stupid thing to say.
I can't believe the stupidity over what is 'middle class' on this board. Sad, but nice try anyway.
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
228. Wow. Merry Christmas from DU I guess. Don't bring your money problems here.
Get a job u bums!!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #228
247. the hypothetical people in the op have jobs. jobs that pay $250K a year, putting them in the
top 3% of families in the nation.

yet, after putting away $40,000 in savings (more than most families clear after taxes), the financial times wants us to feel sorry for them because they're "poor".

boo-hoo.

no one who can save $40K a year & spend $600 a month on gifts & entertainment has "money worries".
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #247
270. You're right. Let's ban pensions too. Let's all be slaves. nt
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
231. Uhh, under this their savings rate is over 16%
Edited on Thu Dec-23-10 08:06 PM by high density
That is pretty good by most standards I know. That budget includes $600/mo in misc entertainment and $520/mo(!!) dining out. ($13k/yr) Overall it sounds like they're doing great.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
232. Gosh, and I've been feeling lucky!
at a quarter the income...tax the rich... period.
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
233. Boo-Hoo!!! nt
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devils chaplain Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
240. Living above one's means and then complaining about being broke...
"They also have a car loan on one of two cars, and a mortgage for 80 percent of the value of a typical home in their communities..."

If they're not living on "easy street", they're living in a community above their means. Are we supposed to have some sympathy for them because they chose a McMansion that stretched their budget a little more than a slightly smaller McMansion would have?

"- paying the $3000/mo mortgage on their house in a neighborhood appropriate for their income class"

Again, if they are having any trouble with life on $250k a year, they're living in a neighborhood INappropriate for their income class.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #240
243. Exactly. The very idea that a family MUST live in a community that is
appropriate for their income class" is absurd. if their expenses are so absurdly high then they're in the wrong home and wrong neighborhood. I have this argument with a friend all the time. She still lives in the same neighborhood that she did when she made $360k a year, but now her income is 24k a year for disability. It's time to sell her posh home and move to something she can afford, but she's unwilling to accept the reality of her situation because she doesn't want to appear less successful to her friends.
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devils chaplain Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #243
244. Fueled by easy credit...
...so many are trying to keep up with (or stay one step ahead of) the Jones' overspending.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

- Winston Micawber in David Copperfield by Charles Dickens
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
253. oh please what bullshit!
nt
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
264. I would love to try
to get by on $250K a year. I am pretty sure I could do it.
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
265. Wow, I wish I was
that fucking poor.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
268. Wow. . . Talk about now being connected to the rest of the world of the working class!
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