Italy makes immigrants speak Italian

[cigsandcoffee]

Source: USA Today

Posted 20m ago |

FLORENCE, Italy (AP) — Svetlana Cojochru
feels insulted. The Moldovan has lived here
seven years as a nanny to Italian kids and
caregiver to the elderly, but in order to
stay she's had to prove her language skills
by writing a postcard to an imaginary
friend and answering a fictional job ad.

"I feel like a guest," said Cojochru. She had
just emerged from Beato Angelico middle
school where she took a language test to
comply with a new law requiring basic Italian
proficiency for permanent residency permits
following five years of legal residence.

Italy is the latest Western European country
turning the screws on an expanding
immigrant population by demanding l
anguage skills in exchange for work
permits, or in some cases, citizenship. While
enacted last year in the name of integration,
these requirements also reflect anxiety that
foreigners might dilute fiercely-prized
national identity or even, especially in Britain
's case, pose terror risks.

Some immigrant advocates worry that as
harsh economic times make it harder for
natives to keep jobs, such measures will
become more a vehicle for intolerance than
integration. Others say it's only natural that
newcomers learn the language of their host
nation, seeing it as a condition to ensure
they can contribute to society.



Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/cleanprint/?1299332957399

[naaman fletcher]

1. Seven years and she can't write a postcard?

I'm generally against these laws and they dont seem to work but I don't feel all that bad for this lady.

[cigsandcoffee]

6. I think that should be up to her...

I'm not suggesting countries go out of their way to accomodate people who don't care to learn the "native" language, but I am against the idea that they be forced to learn. If they want to get by without it, so be it.

[Turborama]

18. Where does it say she couldn't write a postcard?

Is it later in the article? I can't seem to open it for some odd reason. Maybe the link's broken? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

19. Weird. It's not working now. n/t

[Turborama]

24. Just found a working version. In fact, "Cojochru and other test-takers described the exam as easy"

Here: http://in.news.yahoo.com/italy-makes-immigrants-speak-italian-20110305-042148-522.html

So, it seems the poster I was replying to got it totally wrong.

I didn't get this bit...

Terrorism pushed Britain to start strictly enforcing a requirement for English-language competency for prospective citizens. Three of the 2005 London suicide bombers were native Britons of Pakistani descent while the fourth was born in Jamaica.

That's a logic fail. They were all native English speakers (the official language of Jamaica is English), so how did their terrorist acts push "Britain to start strictly enforcing a requirement for English-language competency"?

And apparently in an effort to deter terrorists, they have to learn about a historical English religious extremist/failed domestic terrorist, as well (embedded link added by me)...

Since 2005, would-be citizens and permanent residency holders have been asked to prove their command of "Britishness" by answering multiple choice questions, in English, on British history, culture and law, from explaining the meaning behind the fireworks-filled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes">Guy Fawkes Night, to knowing which British courts use a jury system.

More on the "Gunpowder Plot": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot

[alp227]

35. proper link to article hosted on usatoday.com

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-03-05-italy-immigrants_N.htm

[Mojorabbit]

54. self delete

[Historic NY]

2. Its nice to be bi-lingual but after 7 yrs you should have some lingo down...

I've noticed a couple dunkin donuts here hire mostly people from India for 6 month stretches. Just in ther daily dealing with customers they improve their English understanding and prononuciation 10 fold. They even throw in a couple spanish speaking employees. They are mostly are from late teens to 40's.

[remember2000forever]

3. Quebec. All children of English parents who did not go to an

English Quebec school as children, must send their kids to French schools. Legal Docs and signs in French only, in order to promote and maintain their culture and language.

[greiner3]

23. I'm not quite sure of your post;

However, if you are implying all citizens learn both languages as school children I agree. Learning a new language is natural for children, the younger the easier. I wish my parents lived in a more cultural diverse area when I was growing up. I would have been more adept with bilingualism now.

The requirement for high school graduation, at least for me, was to take a year of a foreign language. It would be great if this requirement was pushed back to starting in 1st grade. Americans are so bigoted. I have seen replies where the posted said that they feel hatred even when a telephone prompt tells them to push 1 for English or 2 for Spanish. They must want that extra second back so they can hate some more.

Idiots.

[remember2000forever]

44. Agreed, Language is $

[speltwon]

53. Darn those Americans!!

I've spent a lot of time in France. I speak fluent French. Are they bigoted? I don't recall (granted I didn't use their phone system a lot when I was there) having a lot of phone trees with multiple languages. I've also been all over Central America. Same thing. There is nothing bigoted in expecting people to speak the local tongue, so to speak. And why are Americans singled out here? Are the English any different? Not in my experience.

I speak several languages and yet I think people who are permanent residents should endeavor to, and be tested in - English. If and when I go to a foreign country where another language is spoken I endeavor to learn as much as I can just to take a short trip, let alone if I wanted to be a permanent resident. It has NOTHING to do with race, xenophobia, nationalism, or stupid merkuns. English is the language here. It didn't prevent me from learning French, some Spanish, Portugese, and latin (comes in handy when I run into roving bands of centurions I tell you).

Language is an interesting thing. Among other things, learning a language helps you think "like a (insert blank here)." Different languages reflect a lot, but they give a lot as well to the speaker.

[dipsydoodle]

4. It is only natural that newcomers learn the language of their host nation

They don't like that then they've always got the alternative option of going back home.

[MikeW]

5. Except in the US where spanish is the only language some speak

[dipsydoodle]

7. So much

for becoming part of the landscape.

[EFerrari]

10. Well, this landscape has always been various.

[WolverineDG]

65. Sleep through American History class much?

:eyes:

dg

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. I'd just point out:

Mid-19th Century

[kiva]

9. And I'd point out that the Mexican government

controlled this area for only 47 years before the Mexican-American War - for the three centuries before that it was a Spanish possession. If you think that the US should return this territory to Mexico, I assume you also believe that Mexico and Central America should be returned to Spain?

[EFerrari]

11. The rights of Spanish speakers in those territories are protected

precisely by the treaty we signed with Mexico.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. What language do they speak in Spain?

You've actually made my point even stronger.

[Iggo]

14. Heh.

:toast:

[WatsonT]

50. How far do you think they go to

accommodate non-Spanish speakers who choose to live there in large numbers?


The US is unusual in how far we are willing to go to tolerate people who choose to live here but not learn the language.

Go to most any country on earth and insist they adapt to suit you instead of vice-versa and it won't go over so well.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Straw.

Who is insisting that they adapt? It's not the indigenous/migrants. That's for fucking sure.

It's a one-way street.

[WatsonT]

67. A one way street?

Well . . yeah.

You come here, you learn our language. We go there, we learn yours.

Simple enough.

[kiva]

52. And my point is that the southwest is no longer

a part of Mexico, but a part of the US. If you feel that formar ownership of the region means that somehow Spanish-only speakers should be grandfathered in, then perhaps the Mexican government should in turn accept Spanish domination.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

56. Why not?

Let's focus on inclusion and not exclusion.

:think:

[EFerrari]

57. They don't have to be "grandfathered in", they are protected

by treaty.

[provis99]

39. ok, so Mexico was an imperialist power at one time, too.

Other than that, I don't get your point.

[apocalypsehow]

71. "Mid-19th Century" - Laughable stuff. Don't have much use for history books, do you?

:shrug:

Hard to do little but laugh at such a weak post.

[hfojvt]

30. that was true in the old days too

In the 19th century there were many German language newspapers and churches in Wisconsin and elsewhere where the service was in German. The first generation of immigrants often does not learn the language, but their kids do because they goto English language schools.

When the services at the Honey Creek church in Wisconsin were switched to English, one of the old Germans (or Swiss) complained and said "I suppose God himself is going to have to learn English"

http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa071299.htm

"Prior to World War I every major American city and many smaller towns with a high concentration of German immigrants had at least one German-language newspaper. Germans who settled in and around Baltimore, Chicago, Cincinnati (whose first mayor was a German), Milwaukee, New York City, St. Louis, and in states such as Nebraska, Pennsylvania, Texas, and Wisconsin often had a choice of several German-language newspapers. The many "little Germanies" scattered across the US in the 19th century each had a thriving German culture that helped the new immigrants adjust to life in a new country. A vital ingredient of that culture was the German newspaper. At home or sitting in the beer gardens of Chicago or New York, the German population could read a Zeitung in German to stay informed about local events and news from the homeland."

[JI7]

49. the only people who only speak Spanish are recent immigrants or older people who grew up

in another country and came here later in life.

but the above is true of people from other countries that speak a language other than english also.

i don't know any young person who grew up here or immigrated here that doesn't speak english or isn't trying to learn.

[Mojorabbit]

55. It has always followed the same

progressin thru the years.
First generation only a little English
Second bilingual
Third only English

It is why I don't worry too much about it. The children will assimilate.

[RB TexLa]

62. Spanish is a language of the US

[WolverineDG]

64. Try reading the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

and btw, English proficiency is a requirement to immigrate into the US, but you aren't required to keep using it once you're naturalized.

dg

[greiner3]

21. I do not agree with your post;

I come from a mostly German background. 3 of my grandparents' ancestors came from Germany in the 19th century and spoke no English. They all settled in Buffalo, a true melting pot until WWI. In Buffalo there was the 2nd largest Polish language newspaper in the world; the first being in Poland.

I recently graduated from college with a Science degree. My hardest subject? A year of Spanish. I found Calculus easy, Physics a breeze and held a 3.5 GPA. I struggled to get Bs and Cs in Spanish.

I mentioned 3 of my forefathers came from Germany and only after many years were able to speak and write English. I learned this from family lore. The other forefather came from Ireland. A true Irishman I'm told, he was not able to speak the language of HIS forefathers because of the occupation. He spoke English. In fact, he was a professor of English at Dublin University.

I know learning a new language is hard. It is so hard that many people cannot do it well enough to fill out an employment application, vote or pass a driving exam. Are you saying that your forefathers should have taken the return ship when they landed at Ellis Island? Or are all your forefathers from England?

Your post sounds like the hate I heard back in the 60s and 70s; America-Love It or Leave It. Different, but equal.

[MikeW]

34. oh well then we disagree

I live in an area with a high hispanic population, there are MANY that dont want, care or are even

trying to learn our language.

It should be a requirement for citizenship.

[a la izquierda]

61. You're aware...

that the US doesn't have an official language? So I guess that's why it's not required (though I'm not certain).

[Zax2me]

68. Um, really?

You would like to say that to Spanish speaking Americans as well?
Don't think it would go over too well.

[Lasher]

13. "I feel like a guest," said Cojochru.

Well duh. That's exactly what she is.

[mackerel]

16. Being bi-lingual only strengthens you resume all the more.

She's a nanny, surely she's picked-up some Italian by now.

My husband is bi-lingual but sadly there are members of his family who have been here 30+ years and can barely speak English.

Being able to speak the language of the country you live in, strengthens your own position in your environment.

[speltwon]

15. Having a language requirement for permenant residency permits

I see no problem with this. You apply for permanent residency in a country. You live in a country for YEARS. The country has, among its requirement that you show SOME proficiency in the dominant language?

Sounds reasonable to me.

[EFerrari]

17. My grandmother came here when she was sixty.

She didn't speak English although she read it and understood it. She was a permanent resident. It would have been pretty difficult for her to meet that kind of requirement.

[Lasher]

27. Lots people, including Italians, came here and never learned to speak English.

I wonder if Italy requires 60 year old immigrants to learn Italian, or if they would even grant someone like your grandmother LPR status.

[EFerrari]

28. I think my grandparents got some kind of special deal

because he was retiring from public service in his country, e.g., had probably facilitated a lot of business between the MIC and his government.

But for regular civilians, that's a good question. The funny thing is that it was my non-English speaking grandmother who taught me reading and writing, language skills, a love of language.

[Lasher]

33. That is an interesting irony.

Another is an old icon that this discussion summons for me: one of the Italian grandmother who couldn't speak English.

[EFerrari]

37. When I was a little girl, grandparents who didn't speak English

where not unusual in our neighborhood. Mostly, they were Russian and Italian and Polish and German -- from the upheavals after the war. For a while later, they were Chinese and Japanese, Filipino, Korean, and still later, Vietnamese. Maybe that's just more common in the coastal states.

[Lasher]

45. Growing up, I was exposed to only white, English-speaking people - except for one family.

They were Italians and they ran a local beer tavern nearby. Everybody called the matriarch Big Mary. None of us kids were allowed to go into anyplace where beer was sold, so I didn't get to know those folks until later in life, after I had been exposed elsewhere to people whose ethnic background and race differed from mine.

You're right, we typically see more diversity near coastal areas and in big cities. I have always lived in the country, far from blue water.

[speltwon]

47. Diversity is good. So is respect for local culture

If you are going to move to a country, I think it's reasonable for that country to expect, especially of a permanent resident with 5 yrs + in, to learn the native language with at least some proficiency.

Heck, even as a visitor to a country, I spend some time studying the language. If you are actually saying to the country "hey, I want to live here", I have zero problem with them saying back "great. We expect, among other things, that you learn about our history, our shared values, our legal system, our system of government, and our language"

[w8liftinglady]

60. none of my great-grandparents spoke english... all swedish and italian.

next-generations spoke more.It's the same in Texas. people DO speak English... they are more comfortable speaking in their native tongue... just like the Italians and swedes were...
entonces,yo puedo hablar in los dos... quiero hablar con todie... me gusto hablar (blush)

[Lasher]

73. J'aime parler trop, mais je ne peux pas comprendre l'espagnol

I do speak fluent redneck though.

[treestar]

43. Not entirely sure.

There is some argument for letting nature take its course. We should be speaking Lakota.

It's in the immigrant's self interest anyway, especially in a small country like Italy. If you live there, learning Italian will get you ahead. Common sense says learn it as well as possible.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greiner3]

22. "Hispanic or Latin American country they left."

Ah, Latinos; wrong color, wrong religion and wrong language to be considered equal citizens of the US. I take it your ancestors all came from England.

[Nikia]

25. English is part of the citizenship test

I think that some elderly people may be exempt, but for most it is a requirement. The English required to pass may not be fluency, but it is enough to function well. The level of Italian to pass their test is not fluency either.

[Lasher]

29. The case in Italy is one of legal residency, not citizenship.

I just wanted to point out that requirements are different, here and there.

[Turborama]

26. "English fluency as a condition for citizenship" - That would mean revoking the majority of freepers

citizenships.

[EFerrari]

32. George Bush would have to be deported.

lol

[provis99]

40. we'd have to keep him as a hardship case.

No other country would accept him.

[EFerrari]

31. Are you still in Santa Rosa?

It's remarkable that any California resident could possibly look on Spanish as a foreign language.

And what values and attitudes are you talking about, exactly?

[MikeW]

36. there in lies the problem ... which is why English needs to be mandated

[EFerrari]

38. What problem is that?

[Turborama]

70. You know...

THE problem.
















Actually... :shrug:, but the ****crickets**** are getting louder.

[EFerrari]

74. LOL. The real problem these people face is getting their kids

to keep their first language. That was a real fight in our extended family. About a third of my cousins are no longer fluent in Spanish. Their kids' numbers will be smaller than that.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[remember2000forever]

46. Been To Miami Lately?

[WinkyDink]

42. If we can have States' rights, I think European nation-states can have their rights.

[SoCalDem]

48. I don't see this as all that unusual

If someone comes to "a country", and works there/lives there, and intends to stay there, they should be amenable to learning the language/customs/culture of that place they have "adopted".

I saw a documentary a while back about Québec, and what they did was to PAY people to attend classes so that there was not an impediment to their learning French.

When someone willingly goes to another place with an established culture, it's unrealistic to expect that the locals will change to accommodate you, a newcomer. If the place was so attractive to you that it made you want to BE there, it's also not unreasonable to expect you to make whatever changes to YOUR life, that are necessary for you to become fully integrated into that society.

If you needed a place to stay and a relative/friend took you in, you would not be welcome for long, if you expected them to change their lifestyle to accommodate your tastes.

Most countries (especially ones with liberal doses of social services) try very hard to limit immigration because most immigrants are obviously looking for a better life than the one they left behind, and many of them will need lots of help getting established. Taxes pay for these services, so people who pay the majority of the taxes expect to see those services wisely distributed, and many may feel that those services should be used for citizens who have fallen on rough times, instead of newly-arrived people who may not intend to integrate into the established society. The rifts caused, may only add to the discomfort of everyone, and often end up encouraging the ultra-right political leaders to cut programs for everyone.

[WatsonT]

51. And the problem is . . ?

[JCMach1]

58. Germany has a similar law...

My kids have to take Arabic in their school here in the UAE. This is not all that unusual.

[Obamanaut]

63. A reasonable rule. nt

[ReggieVeggie]

66. Agreed.

If I lived in a country where I didn't know the language, I'd want to have a basic understanding of the language as quickly as I could. I'm thinking, maybe a year. No more.

Maybe we should persuade them all speak English :7

[Turborama]

69. "Maybe we should persuade them all speak English". Being able to write in English is useful, too.

:D

[MikeW]

72. nothing wrong with this policy

English should be learned and required for all in the US who are applying for citizenship.

Were I work we have some contractors that came from Latin A. and speak little to no english, they have an employer that requires them to learn and take English classes (if necessary)to keep employment.

[KamaAina]

75. Many Italian citizens do not speak Italian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy#Languages

Italy has numerous dialects spoken all over the country and some Italians cannot speak Italian language at all. However, the establishment of a national education system has led to decrease in variation in the languages spoken across the country. Standardisation was further expanded in the 1950s and 1960s thanks to economic growth and the rise of mass media and television (the state broadcaster RAI helped set a standard Italian).

Several ethnic groups are legally recognized, and a number of minority languages have co-official status alongside Italian in various parts of the country. French is co-official in the Valle d’Aosta—although in fact Franco-Provencal is more commonly spoken there. German has the same status in the Province of Bolzano-Bozen as, in some parts of that province and in parts of the neighbouring Trentino, does Ladin. Slovene is officially recognised in the provinces of Trieste, Gorizia and Udine in Friuli Venezia Giulia.

In these regions official documents are bilingual (trilingual in Ladin communities), or available upon request in either Italian or the co-official language. Traffic signs are also multilingual, except in the Valle d’Aosta where – with the exception of Aosta itself which has retained its Latin form in Italian (as in English) – French toponyms are generally used, attempts to Italianise them during the Fascist period having been abandoned. Education is possible in minority languages where such schools are operating.