The Day My Facebook Profile Became a Battlefield (RE: Unions and Teachers)

[ChicagoRonin]

Dwight Egan Sora
For all those ragging on unions, organized labor and the like, I'd like to remind that the eight-hour workdays, five-day workweeks, and the abolishing of slavery and child labor didn't result from corporations or the powers-that-be doing it out of the kindest of their heart. Someone had to fight.
Friday at 5:09pm · LikeUnlike ·

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Jason Patterson, J. Greg Williams, Sofie Zivovic and 7 others like this.
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Dave Meute One was the byproduct of war, the others labor from long ago. The WI scenario is "collective bargaining" of benefits, which only a minority of workers have. There's enough attention to bring this to a reasonable conclusion without blowing the budget and decimating the pension. I only wish IL had a more managable scenario. I hear $60-$80 unfunded IL pension. Yikes ! Taxpayers have rights too.
Friday at 6:22pm · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute Child labor laws, legislation
Friday at 6:38pm · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute Illinois has $60-$80 Billion in unfunded pension....
Friday at 6:40pm · LikeUnlike
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Dwight Egan Sora Yes, but couldn't both parties NEGOTIATE to ameliorate the budget problems instead of just taking away the rights of one side to do so?
Friday at 8:14pm · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute I wish they resolve the budget, but if they lose the right to negotiate benefits, as a libertarian, it wouldn't bother me.
Friday at 8:54pm · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute From what I can tell from the news, it seems WI can centrally alter the benefits of the teachers. It would be better if it were local, to set coverall compensation.
Friday at 8:59pm · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute Hmmm, theoretically, in two years another elected government could change it up again. It would be the peoples will kinda thing.
Friday at 9:18pm · LikeUnlike
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David Babbitt cacao
Friday at 10:00pm · LikeUnlike
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William F. Cruz Many people died.
Friday at 10:25pm · LikeUnlike
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Robert Koon Libertarian = "screw everyone, I'm out for myself." People's rights to collectively negotiate should not be subject to whim.
Friday at 11:12pm · LikeUnlike
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Joshua Hansell This is a systematic attack on organized labor everywhere, taking advantage of people's anger during the "economic crisis" (which was caused by the same abusers of the free market now attacking unions). If we don't systematically fight back, another notch will be cut into the bedpost of the privatization movement.
Friday at 11:39pm · LikeUnlike
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Michael LaRonge Fight and die no less.
Yesterday at 12:39am · LikeUnlike
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Keith Schleicher
I'm sure that there are plenty of unemployed teachers out there that would be happy to take jobs up in Wisconsin and be willing to not pay a union. The teachers' union/government relationship is a mutualistic symbiotic relationship. The g...overnment gives the union what they want, and the teachers' union contributions thousands of dollars to the political campaigns, which in turn gives the union what they want. Taxpayers have no representation in this, yet we are expected to pay for it.

Also, the "40-hour work week" is a bit of a misnomer these days. A lot of people in a lot of different positions work more than 40 hours a week, in the middle of the night and on weekends. Teachers constantly harp about how they work after hours to make lesson plans and grade papers. They also work nine months out of the year. If they didn't know what they were getting into, they should quit and find something else.See More
Yesterday at 1:04am · LikeUnlike
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Robert Koon
Well, I am not surprised to see the appearance of the simplistic "Those who have nothing would be grateful for whatever they could get" argument. "Be grateful and shut up" is just another way of saying "shut up, you have no rights." Of co...urse the relationship is symbiotic--any employer-employee relationship is (and should be) symbiotic, i.e. working for a common benefit, recognizing that each has need of the other to function. THe idea that government totally gives the union what it wants is pretty ignorant, as is the idea that the taxpayers have no representation. Really, half a second's thought and a second-grade education will tell you that that is a crock. Where does the damn government come from, anyway? The taxpayers use the service, the taxpayers pay for it through the government they elect.

And the 40-hour work week is often a misnomer, and for a couple of reasons. One is that there is a class of employees that are classifeid as exempt from the weekly hours requirement--generally salaried, higher-paid employees. The other is that the wages of hourly employees has been systematically suppressed over the last 30 years, since the (fraudlulent) "Reagan Revolution." If the Wisconsin plan goes through, the wages of these employees will be even further suppressed.

Yes, teachers are contracted for nine months a year. Many (most) work many more than that, and they are underpaid for those nine months, since people say they "only work nine months." But the bills come twelve months out of the year. What they got into was a profession where they are charged with the well-being and education of the community's children, and where their rights and working conditions were protected by a union. To take that away from them would--in the kindest sense--be nothing more than a career bait-an-switch.

THe last sentence of your comment, Keith, shows a degree of witlessness that would qualify you to run for office for the Wisconsin Republican Party. And that's a pretty high standard to meet.See More
Yesterday at 1:28am · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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Robert Koon Sorry to hijack your thread there, Dwight. I'll sign off now.
Yesterday at 1:30am · LikeUnlike
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Keith Schleicher I'm not surprised that a liberal would come up here and be insulting. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Yesterday at 1:35am · LikeUnlike
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Joseph Anthony Foronda
Wow... there is a lot of misinformation in this thread, Dwight. Education-wise, Wisconsin ranks 2nd or 3rd highest in the country. I'd think educators have a lot to do with that.

And what does "taxpayers have no representation in this, yet w...e are expected to pay for it."... mean? If you mean the teacher pensions, in Wisconsin their pensions are solely funded by the union members themselves, not the average taxpayer. Even the Governor in Wisconsin got that wrong.

I have to respectfully disagree with most of what your friend Mr Schleicher writes... does he know many teachers, any teachers?
Is he aware of the training and preparation one goes through to be certified? Believe me, teachers "know" what they are getting into.

To be a "teacher" is at best a complicated and under-appreciated profession... I started out as a teacher, but gave up because of all the crap they have to deal with... it was personally heart-breaking for me as I really love kids, and feel I can make a difference...
... but nonetheless my respect goes out to anyone who can take on the responsibility of making a nurturing difference in a young person's life year after year, and yet regularly have to take on the criticism and lack of respect from the parents, the kids, and the taxpayers...

.. want to know someone who gets no respect? Talk to a teacher... and evidently, one in Wisconsin...See More
Yesterday at 5:23am · LikeUnlike · 1 personLoading...
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J. Greg Williams Don't forget, removing the right to collectively bargain has no effect on the budget or it's crisis. It's just a power move using crisis as cover.
Yesterday at 8:48am · LikeUnlike
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Dwight Egan Sora Dear Keith - You seem like a really nice guy in so many ways. But personally, based on my own experience and what I've read up on , you are WAAAAAAYYYYYY off base on the teacher comments. (Plus to clarify, I do think that several decades of corrupt and ineffectual leadership in various unions does need to be corrected - just not in the manner some are going about it).
Yesterday at 9:47am · LikeUnlike
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Dave Meute I got my tax bill... that's states plenty of facts... honestly when the dung flies to the fan to pay the IL unfunded public worker pension, what are you willing to give up? Fire? Cops? Sewer? Roads? ... it isn't pretty
Yesterday at 10:23am · LikeUnlike
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Dwight Egan Sora I've spent time in CPS schools. They're already not pretty.
Yesterday at 10:37am · LikeUnlike
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Jason Patterson
So we have a Libertarian in favor of more governmental power? Better look at what you really profess to believe and not just what FOX "News" tells you if you really want to be called a Libertarian.
My wife is a teacher. My father was a tea...cher. I'm not a teacher because I don't have the patience to put up will all the crap they get hit with every single day. Teachers are far more than glorified babysitters, they are the ones who try to teach kids to think for themselves, to learn how to get on in this society. Make teaching any nastier and there will be even fewer people willing to get into such a hellish field. Then we'll need to hire a lot more prison guards.See More
23 hours ago · LikeUnlike
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J. Greg Williams And just as a followup, the Wisconsin public workers pension has no effect on their budget either since it's deferred compensation. http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/
5 hours ago · Like

[I Have A Dream]

1. It's wonderful that you're fighting for this, but it's not right that...

you're posting this here with people's names in it.

I'd be pissed if you were my friend.

Otherwise, please continue to fight the good fight. :thumbsup:

[ChicagoRonin]

4. The trolls . . .

Were not very close friends, and have since been defriended. I just couldn't tolerate them insulting the values and professions of people I care about (A good chunk of my family and friends are artists, educators and social service professionals).

Friends who made comments I disagreed with, but could still respect, I removed from the DU post. Seemed like the fairest option (Admittedly, this whole DU post was done in a fit of disgust and I might not have done it with a cooler head).

[droidamus2]

2. Idiot comment

If I see that argument 'we taxpayers want' one more time I think I will scream. Okay, to those idiots that throw that out there, you don't think union workers pay taxes you ignorant twits. So why don't they admit that what they really mean is 'we greedy, money grubbing, self-serving, shortsighted, historically blind, conservative Republicans want'.

[HockeyMom]

3. I am a Non-Exempt Public School Teacher's Assistant

We were recently told by our Principal that if we cannot get our work done during the work day, we should come in early or stay late until the work is done. I told my fellow co-workers that if that amounts to over 40 hours a week, we are entitled to OVERTIME pay. We are HOURLY employees. Can you say FEDERAL FSLA? My coworkers looked at me in stunned SILENCE. NONE of them knew this. We are NOT Exempt teachers. I told my coworkers this. If we were working at a fast food restaurant, this would be POSTED for all to see. It's not in the schools. Some of my coworkers said they "didn't care". Point is moot. It's ILLEGAL. The school district can be sued in court for overtime pay.

It really amazes me how employees are so uninformed of their RIGHTS under the law. We need to EDUCATE the public.

[PA Democrat]

5. Gotta love this mentality:

"I'm sure that there are plenty of unemployed teachers out there that would be happy to take jobs up in Wisconsin and be willing to not pay a union."

And I'll bet there is some unemployed person who would gladly do THAT person's job for significantly less money. So are they willing to give up their pay and benefits? Can you say race to the bottom?

[Roy Ellefson]

6. facebook battles

Being from Wisconsin I've been involved in several "facebook battles" of late--I've determined that the best ways to win these battles and maybe change some minds is to personalize the whole thing. Many of our wingnut/tea party "friends" see this as some sort of an abstract ideological battle--I have found it is advantageous to point out that "when you call public employees lazy or thugs or incompetent or undeserving you are directly insulting my wife (who is a teacher) and I am personally offended."

I will stand my ground and let them know that "my family will be losing between 6 and 8,000 dollars in salary...yet we are willing (sort of) to make that sacrifice." I always end my comments with a variation of "People will be hurt if this bill passes, Wisconsin will never be the same, and frankly I can't see how you can be my friend if that happens." It sometimes brings them down to earth and gives them a bit of a recognition that this is real, it's a real statewide "civil war" rather than an abstract ideological exercise.

[Iris]

7. And, as was pointed out, you don't just decide one day to be a teacher

Finding unemployed teachers who meet the necessary certification criteria my be more challenging than some would like to believe