No food stamps for junk food---my true intentions

[Jmaxfie1]

I'm pretty much a political novice I guess you could say, so all of my ideas are not fully worked out. I know I offended some people, I truly did not mean to and feel bad about. I promise you my intentions are in the right place.

The problem I was trying to work out was: How to get people on food stamps access to health food? I do know that a as a group, the poor consumer a large portion of "junk food" than the middle or upper-class. I don't really see this as a choice. Junk food is higher in sugar and calories and is relatively cheap on a dollars to calories basis. My Original idea, not my own idea by any means, was that we don't allow the purchase of junk food with food stamps, but we tie this to a substantial increase in food stamp allotment, thus allowing to cover the cost of healthy food that is usually more expensive on a dollars to calories basis. If figured that either welfare payments or left over money from a job could pay for the occassional snack.

People said this was to autocratic and was trying to ban the poor from eating what they want. After a little while I agreed and decided that, "How about we include an allotment for "junk food" in with all food stamp payments. Still no go. Something, I had really never thought of was that many people said they only had access to gas stations that carried basically only snacks and beer. I had never really thought of this. I guess now I can see the problem with any restrictions to what people can buy on food stamps.

The main problem still stands though. The amount of funds provided by food stamps is inadequate to finance a healthy diet even if one has access to a grocery store that provides them. The problem as I see it is that, although you and your children will likely be malnourished do to lack of proper vitamins, junk food will keep you from starving. In fact, your chances of being overweight and on welfare are greater than you being overweight if you were born into an upper class family. You can be overweight and technically malnourished and vitamin deficient. The problem is that most people don't see it that way. They, "so increase food stamps, those people look like their getting plenty to eat."

I just don't see a great deal deal of hope that people, particularly in Red States, are going to increase food stamps to the level that would allow someone to be able to eat a health diet if they were so inclined. (And I think most poor people would feed their children a healthier diet if they were able.) Honestly if I could waive a magic wand and increase food stamps to the level they need to be at I would. (I would also allow for the purchase of multi-vitamins and personal hygiene products which to my knowledge are not covered under any programs.) I know that no Republicans will increase it and I doubt many Democrats will either.

My intentions were never to limit the choice of the poor, although of course they do, but to increase that choice. It is my belief that the current payment of food stamps makes it all but impossible to eat a health diet. I also believe that since, at least in this state, the farmers PACs heavily lobby the Republican party and that since a shift of money towards farms goods would be money in their pocket, that the Republicans would probably go along with the increase. Know of course on the face of it the Republican party would make it about "responsibility" and making those on welfare "accountable". Originally I thought this would be a good trade off for an increase in food stamp funds, however, thanks to the opinions of the people on here I am not sure. (And I mean that with no sarcasm, like I said I'm more or less trying to see were I stand on the issues. So I might get things wrong, so if you are willing to bear with me I might change my mind I might not.)

So, sorry for the long post, but I guess I wanted to explain my thinking and also show that, although my logic might have been wrong and there were many things I did not think of, that my heart was in the right place. My problem was that I initially did not see that if in order to increase those on food stamps choices of healthy foods by limiting their choices over all, I was in effect canceling out an good that the one increase did.

So... If anyone has any ideas or thoughts on how to increase access to healthy foods for the poor while maintaining freedom of choice and getting it past a Republican governed body please post them. I'm sure it can be done. Maybe not through the Farm interests but possible some other way.

Thanks for listening and sorry to anyone I might have offended, please bare with me.

So... If anyone has any ideas about how we can

[JVS]

1. We had a thread today where some stupid fucker spent $32K for a 6th birthday party and it went...

without much questioning. But everyone wants to control how poor people spend $200.

[Bluebear]

20. Thank you.

[aikoaiko]

32. I think it has more to do with what we (tax payers, govt) are providing for the poor than

overarching control over what they eat.

If the 32K party had been financed with food stamps and other govt assistance normally allocated for basic necessities, there would have been a different reaction.

[Lyric]

40. And what makes you think that "you" are the one providing it?

Does it never occur to ANYONE here that Food Stamp recipients have often paid taxes, too? That quite often, these people haven't ALWAYS been poor? And that most of them have probably paid far more INTO the system than they're ever going to be taking out--and will continue to do so in the future?

A lot of today's poverty is relatively new. There are people on Food Stamps right now whose families have been firmly middle-class workers for generations before the economic crash. They (and their parents, and their grandparents) have paid the same taxes as you--and they have MORE than paid for the small share of benefits that they're collecting today. It's arrogant and ignorant to presume that all (or even most!) Food Stamp recipients are people who have never contributed substantially to the "benefit pot" that they're partaking of now in their hour of need.

Food Stamp recipients are people just like YOU--but less lucky. Someday that COULD be you. It could be any of us. I think that's something we should all keep in mind when making these overly-broad judgements about the people who need these benefits right now.

[salvorhardin]

44. Most food stamp recipients do pay taxes

Most food stamp recipients are working. All food stamp recipients pay, at minimum, sales taxes. The idea that the poor do not contribute to society, and only take from it, is invidious.

[Lyric]

49. Since someone will inevitably point this out, it's true that FS recipients pay no food taxes

on food purchased with their benefits. But they pay sales taxes on everything else. Even poor people need toilet paper, dish detergent, and bath soap. And they pay other taxes, too, although less obviously. We rent, and our landlord has a mortgage on this house. We pay the property taxes and his mortgage payments as part of our rent. We pay the city taxes that go towards local street maintenance. We don't have to pay income taxes right now because our incomes are so low and we all have kids, but that's temporary situation--eventually, we'll all be paying income taxes again, the same as everyone else.

The most important thing is that we recognize and respect the fact that many, many Food Stamp recipients are not "taking" anywhere CLOSE to the amount that they've contributed in the past (and WILL contribute in the future). And the few who DO take more than they've contributed are usually either disabled, or are in a situation in which they have enormous obstacles to employment (gap in work history, no available jobs, no child care, no transportation, no money for work clothes, or some combination of the above).

I honestly don't know a single Food Stamp family that doesn't include at least one working adult. My household receives Food Stamps. There are four adult women here sharing the rent in this house--one of us works full time for minimum wage as a convenience store cashier, one works part-time as an evening shift pub cook and goes to school during the day, one goes to school full-time and cares for all four kids in the evenings, and the last adult is disabled (brain tumor) and is fighting to get approved for disability--she helps with housework and helps with the kids when she can. Together, we have four kids total to support. I worked for years before going to school. Rhythm worked for DECADES and paid middle-class taxes before going to school. The other two women here (another lesbian couple) have also worked and paid taxes before one of them had the misfortune to get sick.

We are not the useless, pandering leeches that some people make us out to be. We contributed for years, decades even, before we needed to ask for help. We don't live high on the hog on the public dime. We are not idle. There's a lot of ignorance about how public assistance really works, and it needs to dispelled.

[Jmaxfie1]

50. I don't know why food stamps don't pay for toiletries. I would consider them essentials.

I can see not paying for perfume or cologne, but soap, shampoo, toilet paper, I would consider essentials.

[Lyric]

53. I agree, but I'd almost dread the aftermath of having such things permitted.

As it is, there are nosy lecturers peeking into my grocery cart to make sure that I didn't buy anything that *they* consider a "luxury". If I were allowed to buy TP and soap, I'd get twice the number of lectures. God help me if I dared to choose a product or brand that someone else considers "too good" for people like me. Unless I bought absolutely NOTHING but the cheapest store-brand generics (most of which are really crappy deals, to be honest) I'd never hear the end of it.

[Jmaxfie1]

54. That blows.

What would make since is if the government was able to bargain with say bounty or a nation wide brand and then get them to cut a deal and let foods stamp pay for it, on other things I guess it might be more difficult, but at least to me, toilet paper and paper towel brands are pretty much the same to me. Of course if you tried to do something like that their would be screams of socialism from the right.

[blueamy66]

129. I don't know...

I buy the TP that is on sale and that I have a coupon for. I buy the hair gel that I like, but only if I have a coupon for it.

I am not on the dole, count my pennies, clip coupons and make my grocery list while scrutinizing the sale ads.

I don't know what the solution is....but something has to give.

[ejpoeta]

59. exactly! i always try to point out that we ALL pay taxes be it through buying

things at the store or whatnot. we ALL pay taxes. and i would argue the poor pay a higher tax, because they have to pay to cash checks because they may not be able to get a bank account. they are the ones using payday lenders and pawn shops to try to get by. they drive older cars that don't get as good a gas mileage. They end up with rent to own furniture which costs 3x what we pay in the store for it.

[salvorhardin]

113. Oh, definitely

Just talking about actual taxes alone, the poor have an almost 25% effective tax rate while the rich have an effective tax rate of about 10%-15%.

[haele]

75. Most people I see using food stamps also pay cash for other items -

The toiletaries, the extra food that isn't covered by food stamps (extra veggies, better quality meat, an extra bottle of juice, canned veggies or tuna, spagetti, frozen dinners), treats or a few more "adult" or unhealthy type food items, like soda or anchovies, cookies or crackers.
It's obvious those people are working, even if it's a low paying job, and using food stamps to suppliment the "government identified as healthy" food they're getting for their kids.

The last food-stamp using family I saw looked (and talked) as if they had just taken their paycheck down to check cashing, then stopped off at the grocery store to buy the food for the week before sitting down to figure out what they had left over after paying for what wasn't allowed by the food stamps to pay bills.
As far as I'm concerned, if they needed it, they needed it.

Haele

[JVS]

57. Oh get real, they're poor people. And it's a scientific fact that poor people are a bunch of...

stupid troglodytes who couldn't find their ass with both hands and spend their benefits on ridiculous things like chips, a soda, and a sandwich when they're gettting lunch on the go instead of buying potatoes or beans and rice, which are a much better food value and have the added benefit of keeping them in the kitchen cooking so that their smelly poor germs don't get all over the rest of the public.

[aikoaiko]

73. It doesn't really matter if recipients are, have, or will ever pay taxes.

The voice of the poor counts whether they pay taxes or not. Collectively we can still decide what things get bought with government aid.

Yes, recipients are people just like me and I would be fine with food stamps being limited to more healthful foods.

[geardaddy]

117. +1

[Name removed]

77. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

60. Truth. Thanks for the sanity. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. People are lot more tolerant when it isn't their money being wasted

[bobbolink]

76. You got that right. It is all about control, and Dems are just as much control freaks as Reps.

This is one of those things it is impossible to have a coherent discussion about, because so many go right into CONTROL without ever questioning why there might be a problem in the first place.

[leftynyc]

101. I'm trying to see your point

however, the birthday party lady was spending her own money. Food stamps come fro taxpayer dollars so I don't think this is a valid comparison.

[era veteran]

2. This topic has been visited before. It is one of the big

schisms at DU.
Reading the debate about the food stamp act of 1964 will give you insight but won't stop the posters from jumping on you from either side of the divide. One thing, the soda pop lobby spent lots of money making sure you could get pop despite the fact that it has NO FOOD value.
My late Mother was a food stamp case worker with a masters degree in counseling. I grew up with her doing that job and us not far from needing them. We lived frugally and did not have many luxuries like pop in the house.

[Jmaxfie1]

4. I know its a hard issue.

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to look up the debate on-line.

[era veteran]

27. Past postings

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I asked the mods to lock this post of mine.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[grasswire]

3. you wrote:

"And I think most poor people would feed their children a healthier diet if they were able.)"

A lot of factors complicate this. Did you watch Jamie Oliver's series on West Virginia's school lunches? People -- millions of them -- simply don't know what is healthy.

I'm putting a good deal of blame on food manufacturers, marketers and grocers. When I look in shopping carts in the supermarket, I want to cry at what this or that family is going to be eating for the week. Overpriced, overprocessed, overpackaged crap.

I wish the market would let me do some shopping lessons or demonstrations or something. But then they wouldn't make as much profit, cuz I would teach families how to eat well on less than they are currently spending.

[Luminous Animal]

5. Not to mention food deserts. Where there is little to none healthy food available

in the neighborhood.

[Jmaxfie1]

8. I'm not sure if this would even be feasible

But I wonder if there would be a program where local farming coops, could set up a movable "farmers market" on a truck trailer or something and visit particularly inner city neighborhoods. Or maybe just set up an open farmers market in the area on weekends.

[Luminous Animal]

17. There are food activists who are doing that. And also establishing urban farms.

There are so many obstacles... fresh year round food. Accessibility. Price. Time (the greatest luxury). Appliances. Skill.

It's great when you can have access to an armful of chard but when you live in your car or an SRO, what are you going to do with it?

[Jmaxfie1]

19. That cools.

I know thats the whole problem people have something to sell, people want it, getting the two together is the problem.

[Dorian Gray]

33. Those are interesting ideas

but at our farmer's market (in Brooklyn at Grand Army Plaza), a 1/2 gallon of milk costs $8. Yes, you read that right. They take food stamps, though.

[CTyankee]

38. We have that in New Haven. All of the farmers markets take food stamps.

They are held in various neighborhoods in the city, the poorer ones. And we once again have a large supermarket in an inner city neighborhood that has a wide selection of fresh, healthy food and also employment opportunities in the store. Yale Law School students have been consistently aiding this effort. The store is close enough to the Yale campus to serve the students as well, thereby mixing the demographics in a very good way!

[Jmaxfie1]

39. Wow, that's Great!!! n/t

[msanthrope]

122. Same here in Philly. All Farmer's Markets take the Food Stamp card, and the

prices here are cheaper than at supermarkets.

[bobbolink]

85. It has been shown here before.. only affluent people can afford Farmer's Markets.

The lack of information concerning reality is appalling, as is the Calvinistic control-freakism.

[Gormy Cuss]

133. No, there are proven models for providing affordability at farmers markets.

Markets must be held in a place and time that is accessible and incentives such as bonus value instituted whenever a purchase is made using a SNAP card (buy $1 worth on SNAP, get 50 cents more product for free) or direct subsidies such as vouchers usable only at markets.

The real problem is that these programs don't reach enough low income people.

[Jmaxfie1]

7. I agree,

I do think some of the problem is that if you come from a background of generational poverty you eat what you learned to eat growing up. I know that since my family is part Italian we had pasta at least once a week growing up. I still do this (even though now carbs are bad . If you grew up eating cheap high calorie food your more likely to do it as an adult.

p.s. I didn't see the school lunch program I'll have to track it down. I know this was a big debate a few years ago in Charlotte,NC about soda machines in school. Let's just say a few donations to the schools were made and the debate went away real quick.

[DesertFlower]

16. actually if you ate pasta and beans,

i.e. pasta e fagioli or pasta with lentils, you were eating a complete protein. would have been better if the pasta was whole wheat. the beans are loaded with fiber.

i don't think carbs are bad eaten in moderation.

[bobbolink]

87. Yeah, to hell with diabetics and hypoglycemics. I'm glad you know so much more than my doctor.

[DesertFlower]

105. of course if you have diabetes you

can't eat that. i was talking about healthy people in general.

you didn't have to get your knickers in a twist.

[bobbolink]

106. No, you're making general prescriptions because you know better what everyone should have.

Its called "control freak".

And, callling someone who is poor and TRYING TO PRESERVE WHAT LITTLE IS LEFT OF HEALTH "getting knickers in a twist" shows the level of sensitivity and concern for those you want to control.

This is Republicanism at its best... you get to control those you consider beneath you, AND you get to call them names. Way to go!

[DesertFlower]

108. i was giving an opinion. it was something i

learned from a nutritionist.

it had nothing to do with you or poor people. okay forget "getting your knickers in a twist". instead i'm telling you that you have a bad attitude and you're hostile.

republicanism? Jesus H. Christ. i never said anyone was beneath me. maybe you feel like you are -- then that's you're problem not mine.

i have nothing more to say to you.

[bobbolink]

112. the hostility is coming from people who want to control those they see as beneath them.

Try considering us as human beings, not objects to be manipulated. You might find you get a better reception that way.

And, yes, these methods and attitudes are learned from the Republicans... it is how they have been controlling poor people for decades now, and the Dems march right along with them, instilling the resultant anger. You can blame me all you like... you will find that there are MILLIONS of us who are angry and fed up with this controlling crap.

[DesertFlower]

114. i never said anything about you being poor.

and i'm certainly not trying to manipulate you. you don't know me. i've been poor. i was on welfare for 2-1/2 years back in the mid 60s. they didn't have food stamps back then.

we're doing good now and we give a lot of money to charity -- mostly food banks and "feeding america". i'm very concerned about the poor. i'm extremely angry that all the cuts the government makes tend to hurt the poor.

i don't know why you think i'm not treating you like a human being. i made a simple statement about food and you jumped all over me.

i read the thread and comments and i noticed it was not just me that you're angry with.

i'm sorry if you're poor, but i'm not responsible for that. no need to be angry with me.

[bobbolink]

115. Geeez, this isn't that complicated. Try to follow this... people on food stamps are poor.

So many of you want to see us/them CONTROLLED and dictated to.

Newsbreak... we don't want your charity.. we want the JUSTICE to be treated with dignity as the intelligent, talented and COMPASSIONATE people we are. That third quality is what the rest of you need to grasp.

[msanthrope]

123. You said nothing offensive. Your observations upon reading the

thread regarding conflict are accurate.

[DesertFlower]

165. thank you. nt

[wickerwoman]

180. Diabetics can eat pasta and beans.

They just need to know how many carbs are in the pasta and adjust the amount of insulin they take accordingly (assuming they are insulin dependent). And the fiber in the beans means the pasta carbs don't hit the blood sugar as fast or as hard as say a Snickers bar or Kraft Mac & Cheese or Ramen noodles all of which are the realistic alternatives if you're on foodstamps.

Hard to see what a diabetic is doing arguing that the government banning soda, candy, chips, etc. from foodstamps is going to make life harder for her. If you can't eat pasta and beans, what difference does it make that you can't buy Doritos and Mars bars with foodstamps?

If anything it will make things easier because it will give gas stations and other alternative food sources in poor neighborhoods more incentive to stock fresh fruits and vegetables (as they do in most other countries in the world).

[bobbolink]

184. Who should I believe... you or my doctor?

I'll take this slowly, so you can absorb the nutrients..... I was replying to the people who keep telling other people what to EAT. It always involves carbs.

OK?

Can you now make that connection?

This self-absorbtion on what other people are eating is infantile and very unDemocratic.

[wickerwoman]

189. If your doctor is telling you you can't eat any carbs

in any form whatsoever, your doctor is wrong and you should try to find another one. Both of my parents are diabetic, along with four or five of my aunts and uncles, my ex-boyfriend and several of my cousins. My dad has been living with diabetes for fifteen years. He can eat carbs, particularly if they are partnered with high fiber foods. He just has to adjust his insulin based on how much he eats.

I was replying to you saying that as a diabetic you can't eat pasta and beans (or things like sweet potatoes). You can. In fact, the combination is one of the best things you can eat- certainly better than mac & cheese, ramen noodles, (insert cheap processed carb-laden crap here).

I'm very sorry that you've been recently diagnosed. I know that it's an extremely scary and difficult adjustment to make, but knowing how to manage the disease in terms of what you can and can't eat makes a massive, massive difference in long-term quality of life. Either your doctor is misinforming you, or you have more research to do.

And the argument that restricting food stamp coverage of soda, etc. will create a hardship specifically for diabetics is an extremely weak one because the foods that would be restricted are specifically the foods that are worst for diabetics in the first place. There are plenty of other much stronger reasons for the government not to restrict food stamps. Why not stick to discussing those?

[bobbolink]

191. I will listen to my doctor, thank you, My doctor shows a lot more concern.

I wish people would back off from the Calvinist lecturing, but then, I know how seductive it is.

[Mojeoux]

6. Nanny State Much?

Soda companies are scumbags

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. Isn't giving people money to feed themselves already a Nanny State activity?

If taxpayer money is being spent, taxpayers have vested interest in seeing that it is not wasted.

[bobbolink]

88. Yeah, fucking let 'em starve, Freddie, because your power trumps all.

[Freddie Stubbs]

90. Of course not

But if you are giving taxpayer money to people to feed themselves, it isn't too much to ask that the money not be wasted.

[bobbolink]

93. The real waste is in the corporations that you support, and you know that, and you also know that WE

know that.

Stop the RW calvinism, and stop demanding control over people you consider beneath you.

[Mojeoux]

127. "RW calvinism" love it Bo! And who's gonna be the Food Stamp police?

"Nutella says it's nutricious!?"

Will they go all Organic? That would be the slippery slope of the "logic."

Ha Ha then they would have a fight with big "Farma."

[bobbolink]

131. They will ALL want the job of being Food Stamp Police. Think how fulfilling it will be to call out

people from the check out line, and castigate them for their "choices". Some people really do have too much time on their hands.

[Mojeoux]

138. Rumsfeild admits they "lost" over a TRILLION in Iraq.

"Lost" as in, "I don't know where that has got to!"
Bribes and schemes within schemes, where is the outrage about all that money?

These guys get a pass, but with people in need, "taxpayers want to know that their money isn't wasted!"

[bobbolink]

141. Of course, but *this* one isn't about the RW. This is about people posing as "progressives" who

want to judge and control.

Little Calvinist Eichmans, to use the castigated phrase.

[Freddie Stubbs]

171. If we actually want to help people, wouldn't it make sense to make sure that the money is spent on

nutritious food?

[bobbolink]

178. "Helping" people does NOT entail running their lives. Unless, of course, you think attacking and

occupying other countries is "help".

[Freddie Stubbs]

181. Giving people money to spend on junk food instead of nutritious food isn't helping them either

[bobbolink]

182. Yes, more support for attacking and occupying other countries for "humanitarian reasons"

[Rabblevox]

9. Farmer's Markets are part of the answer...

I'm not on food stamps (yet), but I know a few local farmer's markets offer discounts to people on food stamps.

It's not easy eating on a tight budget. Healthy food is harder to find, harder to prepare, and doesn't have that oh-so-satisfying rush of sugar and grease and salt.

It's a hard question. Limiting choices for the poor rubs me the wrong way. OTOH, I know too many people that waste their food stamps on Red Bulls, Rockstars, and other caffeine/sugar drinks, and I'd be fine with banning those from food stamps.

[Jmaxfie1]

14. What we need is a better way to get farm goods to those who do not have access to them

If we could get small farmers better excess to inner city markets I think it would be a great win/win.

[Rabblevox]

21. +1 absolutely correct! I forget how lucky I am to live somewhere...

where there is a thriving local, organic, small farming industry..even though I live in a big city. I can walk or bike to most of the local FM's, and even during winter there's at least 1 or 2 a week. (of course, during winter, it's mainly boring root-crops, but still..."

Goddess Bless the Willamette valley!

http://www.oregonfarmersmarkets.org/directory/directory ...

[Jmaxfie1]

22. I live in Charlotte, but there is tons of farm land out side of the city.

I get to go by the farmers market every once in a while, its great.

[bobbolink]

89. I'm going to keep repeating this until all of you understand this... farmer's markets are for

affluent people.

They are MORE expensive than the grocery store, and offer less choice.

I get that you love them... fine. Just don't keep trumpeting this as a SOLUTION, becasue it is NOT.

[Jmaxfie1]

128. I think it depends on where you live.

Here farmers markets are much much cheaper than vegetables at the grocery store. In the city though, I'm sure they are very expensive. I think that is why some people are pushing it and the others are saying, "Are you crazy?"

[bobbolink]

132. I've been to them in different locations, and it is all the same. They are Food Boutiques, and you

tell just by looking at the shoppers these aren't for those of "modest means". Its a status thing now.

[Jmaxfie1]

136. Not here

Their still about 3x to 2X cheaper than the grocery store. If you live in a rural area or an area that is close to a rural area. In the cities though i can see how it has become a status thing.

[bobbolink]

137. I said I've been to them in rural areas, but I guess you didn't want to see that part.

In any case, policing people on Food Stamps is just plain thuggery.

Shop where you want, and leave poor people to do the best they can without criticism and control.

[Jmaxfie1]

139. I guess it depends what region of the country you are in?

Here they are cheaper. Anyway, I made a posted at the bottom of what I see as the true debate, at least what I see it as. I think it is about funding.

[bobbolink]

140. So just take away the food. We don't need it anyway. We are willing to sacrifice for you and learn

to be airplants.

Its all we deserve, anyway, so go judge someone else.

[Gormy Cuss]

135. There are in place effective ways to connect some low income people to fresh local produce.

See here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Some programs are FNS sponsored, some are state or local iniatives, and some are private foundation funded models.

[ejpoeta]

157. WIC gives us checks for the farmer market. I went and got blueberries and such.

yes they can be more expensive.... but not always. depends on what you are buying. My hubby went and bought a lot of peppers for $6. we sliced them and froze them and just recently ran out. they lasted us months in the freezer. We have been having a garden every year for the past few years and just bought a blueberry tree and some fruit trees last year. Plan on trying to have a bigger garden this year. But farmers markets have great produce.... prices may vary.... but they are good as part of the overall picture.

[AngryOldDem]

183. Keep repeating it all you want. It still does not make it so in EVERY case.

Actually, the produce at farmers' markets is actually pretty comparable pricewise to what you get at a grocery store; plus you know where it comes from and who grows it. Virutally everything that is grown on a farm is sold at some time or another at a farmer's market. Hence the term. Yes, you can get some "fancier" things like better cuts of meat, jams, jellies, and craft items and such, but you don't have to buy them.

For you to generalize **your** experience of the world at large does not always make things so.

Any place that can help get food to the people who need it is a "solution," as is education on what is better nutrition-wise and how to get the most out of one's allotment of food stamps. What individuals decide to do with that information is then totally up to them.

[blueamy66]

130. The 99cent store has alot of bargains....

I found, last week:

a 5 lb. bag of potatoes
a bag of fresh green beans
zucchini
red, yellow, orange and green peppers
lettuce
tomatoes
carrots
tomatoes....1 lb.

I am not on the dole, but have had my hardships, due to the child support that my man owes....

Buy a Sunday paper, clip coupons...it can be done....

I look for the meat in the "sale" bin and then freeze it. We grow alot of our own veggies.....

I don't know what my point is...I guess I mean to say...it can be done!

[amandabeech]

169. Learning to grow some fresh veggies would be good for everyone.

For low income people, whether they take food stamps or not, veggies out of the garden can be pretty cheap and extremely nutritious.

Of course, for homeless and disabled people, and those working multiple jobs, a garden would be nearly impossible. The same goes for people living in apartments where there is no place to plant a few seeds.

It would be great if you could buy seeds and flats of veggie plants, like tomatoes, with a food stamp or WIC card.

Of course, a "vegetable gardening for newbies" book would be a real help, too!

[wickerwoman]

175. Communal gardens solve some of these problems.

Some of the churches in my area have gotten together to buy cheapish abandoned lots in poor neighborhoods and have given out little gardening plots to local poor families.

It might be nice to offer the option when people sign up for food stamps or unemployment benefits to join a community gardening program. Each family could get a little plot of land and a support network to give them tips on how to use it.

Another program teaches people gardening skills and then gets them landscaping jobs with the local council.

[amandabeech]

186. Those sound like good programs.

Here in the DC area, there are a few community gardens in MD and DC. The biggest problem is keeping the deer away from the veggies--they're really yummy deer food.

In Detroit, in my home state of Michigan, churches have been able to put together plots of several acres. They grow alfalfa, a legume, which is good food for rabbits. They sell the skins and can the meet for their food bank. They then compost the rabbit droppings, which are full of nitrogen from the alfalfa, and use it for fertilizer for the veggie garden.

Nearer to my home town, which is in a rural farming area, local veggie gardeners bring their surplus to the local food bank. There are always tomatos and squash left over even after they are offered to neighbors, friends and co-workers in addition to other things. Some even plant an extra row or two just for the food bank. I think that the project is being looked at by the state because it could be used in many rural areas of the state.

[rucky]

10. If we subsidized fruits & veggies as much as we subsidize HFCS

we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Lucian]

11. Should we tell you how you should spend your money?

Didn't think so.

Hey, government workers get paid government money, which is funded by the taxpayers. Should we tell them what they can spend their money on as well?

[Jmaxfie1]

12. Lucian, did you read the whole post? n/t

[Very_Boring_Name]

24. You really don't see a difference between the two scenarios?

Why don't we start with the fact that government workers are entitled to the wages they earned.

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Poor choice of words there.

Government workers are indeed entitled to the wages they earned. Food stamp recipients are also entitled to the food stamps the have qualified for. Perhaps you might want to draw some other distinction?

[Very_Boring_Name]

72. No, they're not entitled to it

They are given them based on qualifications that they must first meet. By definition, this is not entitlement. A government employee, on the other hand, who has worked a set number of hours is entitled to the paycheck he earned.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. Actually it is exactly an entitlement.

Lots of entitlements come with qualifications. If you qualify you are entitled.

Wiki, for example, says:

An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement

Workers are entitled to their wages and qualified food stamp recipients are entitled to their food stamps.

[Very_Boring_Name]

84. Workers are entitled to their wages, qualified food stamp recipients aren't entitled to spend their

food stamps on beer and popcorn. It's conditional. Earned wages are not.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. popcorn yes, beer no.

Food stamps can only be spent on food. That is irrelevant to your argument that food stamps are not an entitlement. You are now claiming that dollars are not food stamps therefore food stamps are a privilege not an entitlement. Please demonstrate how exactly all entitlements require dollars.

[boppers]

124. You don't think beer counts as food?

Bummer.

[Warren Stupidity]

125. Actually beer is not all that bad as a food.

However the food stamp program insists you are not entitled to purchase beer with food stamps

[Lucian]

62. Um, those on food stamps are also entitled to them.

They went through the application process, got selected based on need, and are allowed to be on them.

So are you saying they shouldn't be entitled to it?

Thanks for showing us your true colors.

[Very_Boring_Name]

71. I've been on food stamps, I was under no illusions

It was a privilege, not an entitlement.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. No actually it isn't a privilege.

A privilege connotates special treatment. There is no special treatment in regards to food stamps, everyone qualified is treated the same. The idea behind the food stamp program is that NOBODY SHOULD SUFFER FROM HUNGER IN A LAND OF PLENTY.

[Very_Boring_Name]

83. Yes actually it is a privilege

A privilege is something given on a conditional basis. There are conditions you must meet before you are given food stamps (you must have an income below a certain threshold, job training programs, etc), therefore it is a privilege. And you're right, it is based on the foundation that nobody should suffer from hunger. That doesn't mean one of the conditions upon which this privilege is given is that they use it to buy healthy food instead of junk.

[bobbolink]

94. It is a "priviledge" for those who consider poor people of no value, and expendable.

There are actual human beings on this planet, not in the US, of course, who know this and live by this humane belief.

Too bad this country is so deficient in compassion and caring.

[Rabblevox]

174. As a poor person, I resent your attitude.

I have been poor right down to the level of sleeping under a bridge and eating out of dumpsters. I'm currently scraping by on an umenployment, and have to squeeze every penny till it screams. So I find your sanctimonious, hollier-than thou attitude more than a bit offensive and irritating.

You do not speak for "the poor", and apparently don't get out in the real world much. Your unreserved hostility actually drowns out any decent points you were trying to make.

I've only been here a week, and you came very close to being the first person on my ignore list. I'm going to hold off for now, and hope you were just having a really bad day.

[bobbolink]

176. Have at it.

If you are poor, and consider that Food Stamps is a "privilege" to be judged by those who consider themselves superior to you, then you are entitled to your shackles.

You *do* realize that your response was NOT about the issue, but a personal attack, which is against the rules, right?

Maybe with more time here you will see that the dominant attitude is not in favor of poor people.

I will welcome you ignoring me.

[pacalo]

13. Who am I to decide for other people what they should or shouldn't be eating?

Just because they're on food stamps? Out of resentment that they should enjoy what they're eating because my taxes pay for them? The food stamps probably aren't that much per month; let them buy what they want to eat.

I was behind a young woman with a baby in a grocery store, & the cashier told her she had one too many fresh fruit items! My husband & I wanted to pay for it, but the young woman refused & refused. So much for healthy foods

[aquart]

15. Has it occurred to you that schools no longer teach cooking?

The current generation has no idea how to prepare and preserve food. They don't know how to balance a meal. Supermarkets provide more and more pre-packaged meals because people don't know how to make their own food.

I mean, it's nice of you to worry about the poor. Patronizing, but nice. But the middle class hasn't a clue how to eat, either.

That said, I am utterly offended by your officious attempts to interfere in personal choice spending. Food stamps allow people to buy and prepare their own meals. Myself, I don't buy a damn thing that isn't on sale or special. The soda I like is expensive ginger beer and it is nobody's fucking business how I economize to get that bottle. As for your attempt to prevent me from buying it at all...

[Jmaxfie1]

18. That was the point i was wrestling with...

In the beginning I thought it would be to, say increase food stamps by $100, by cutting a deal with the republicans and their big farm PACS that limited or cut back junk food. So say now someone would get $300 a month in food stamps rather than two. In the end I thought they would be better of with just the $200 dollars. Basically in a Red State you have to make some kind of deal to get anything. So there really is no option of just a larger increase. (Our newest Democratic Senator doesn't think Gay people should be able to adopt children if that gives you an idea on how much even the Dems would push for an increase in food stamps)

[bobbolink]

95. You know, this is exactly what is so damming.... all of you sitting around deciding how to change

people, and it never even occurs to you that they are PEOPLE.

You wouldn't want people doing the same to you, but it never even occurs to you that maybe if you were to get to KNOW poor people, and ASK them, you might learn something.

But, then, you'd have to first be willing to see us as people, and that would be a huge shock to theh system.

Until then, "consider" that treating people as objects usually doesn't get you greeting with flowers and choklits.

[Hippo_Tron]

151. As someone who is of the current generation, cooking isn't rocket science

I pretty much taught myself by a combination of watching my parents do it and trial and error. Now I'm not a master chef by any means, but I can and do cook simple, healthy, and relatively tasty meals.

I think that "nobody ever taught me" is just an excuse. Even if you don't know how to turn on a stove, I'm sure there's a youtube video that shows how to do it.

[w8liftinglady]

23. I agree- there should be access to grocery stores in inner cities

In downtown dallas.The stores located near the Dallas Housing Authority are convenience stores.
That's it.
there are no grocery stores for 10 blocks.
They do have public trans,but have you carried gros via public trans?
I would love to see a food bank placed in the housing project that endorsed healthy food choices... hell,I'm a nurse.
The odds of this surviving a republican texas legislature...

[Raksha]

96. I've done it - carried groceries in a folding shopping cart via public trans.

In fact I still do it, and it totally sucks. And I'm in an area with lousy public transportation.

[bobbolink]

116. Try doing it with two or three children, and ill health.

[joshcryer]

25. I voted no in that other thread because I don't believe people should need food stamps.

A radical position I know.

[Rabblevox]

26. So because the system isn't perfect, we should let poor people starve? Explain..

your logic, please.

[joshcryer]

167. That we need a better society?

[Warren Stupidity]

30. It isn't radical so much as it is divorced from reality.

[joshcryer]

168. I think you missed the point of my comment.

[ejpoeta]

28. have you ever lived on food stamps? i have.... and i can tell you something....

mac and cheese costs 35cents at aldi for a box. ramen noodles are like $5 for 50. apples are $4 for a 5 lb bag. potato chips are $3 or less even..... white potatoes (which i cannot buy with WIC) are $5 for 10lb. sweet potatoes are $1/lb. buying the kids oranges is a luxury. i have started making sure to buy romaine lettuce and if I can swing it I will buy a bag of spinach leaves. the kids like that. but when I was on food stamps, we had to stretch it out and fresh fruits and veggies are expensive. but junk food is cheap. poor folks are fatter and don't get enough healthy food not because they just want to eat crap..... they cant afford to eat healthy. there are those who insist it isn't that much more or that it is easy to make healthy choices.... but when I do buy fruits and vegetables and yogurt and such.... we always make sure the kids get that first. we do without to make sure they have that stuff.

white all purpose flour I can buy for $1.50 for 5lb. Wheat flour is $3.50 for 5lb.
regular enriched noodles are about .60 for a 1lb box. Whole wheat noodles are $1.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. You can' t buy potatoes with WIC?

Mac and cheese and ramen noodles are inexpensive, but per pound, so is rice, flour, beans, and potatoes.

There are several things going on which encourage poor nutrition among the poor; "food deserts", economics (the stuff they say you need for an optimally balanced diet is expensive) and lack of skills.

From society's perspective, the reason we created a food stamps program was to get adequate nutrition to people who can't afford it. If those resources are being spent on soda and candy instead, it's not serving its purpose.

[ejpoeta]

58. as far as i know you can't buy candy with food stamps. at least here in ny.

i think you can buy pop and i might have once in awhile while i was on food stamps. but we focused on groceries like food and not things like pop. and no you can buy sweet potatoes but not regular potatoes. i was surprised by that but it opened my eyes and i have been trying to incorporate sweet potatoes. i make roasted potatoes and will do half sweet potatoes. that sort of thing. my sister makes an awesome mashed potatoes with half sweet half white potatoes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Sweet potato oven fries are the yummiest thing in the world. n/t

[former9thward]

104. You can buy potatoes with food stamps.

Food nutrition benefits are set by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The states have nothing to do with it.

[ejpoeta]

109. on food stamps but not on WIC. only sweet potatoes.

[former9thward]

111. Gotcha. I don't know anything about WIC. Seems strange though.

[ejpoeta]

119. turns out potatoes aren't that good for you. i did not know that.

i figured they are a vegetable so good. but iceberg lettuce has no nutritional value either... or very little. i didn't know that either. until recently. sweet potatoes are very good for you. i am glad that i know that. and i would welcome a class of some sort on what foods are better for you. i thought corn was good for me.... i guess that is not as good for us as I thought. I have always tried to make good choices, but didn't know they weren't good choices with regards to vegetables. I think a class on how to do coupons and get the most bang for your buck and that sort of thing would be awesome!!! I would definitely welcome such a thing ans someone on another post had suggested. I agree there is a lot I still probably don't know. like what to do with lentils and kidney beans. they offered these dried beans on wic and i had no idea what to do with them. but i do cook a lot. make my own spaghetti sauce and put lots of veggies in it. and I make a lot of my own stuff. I have recently started buying whole grain noodles. we have been buying whole wheat bread for a long time now. I would buy more wheat flour if I could afford it. I have stopped having pop in the house altogether as far as my own use. My husband has some that he takes to work.

BTW... WIC is very strict on what you can buy even as far as brands and amounts. It can be a pain in the ass sometimes because the store may not always have something. They started having tortillas as a choice and I was so happy!! til I tried to get tortillas..... I ended up giving up on that. Now I just get whole wheat bread.

[bobbolink]

142. So, we can please all of you by eating a diet of nothing but sweet potatoes?

Good, I'mm glad to know we will be allowed that much, anyway.

Of course, diabetics and hypoglycemics will lose their health big time on that diet, but as long as we are pleasing the Food Stamp Police, it is all for good cause.

[ejpoeta]

156. I would like to know who gets to decide what people on food stamps can buy.

I mean, WIC is specifically milk, cheese, eggs, cereal, peanut butter, fruits and vegetables and grains. It's purpose is specific to certain aspects of the diet of a pregnant/breastfeeding woman and a baby/child. it's all fine and good to want to dictate what people can and can't get with food stamps....

i think you misunderstand me.... i was merely stating what WIC allows.... i do not advocate treating adults like children who need to be told what to buy at the store with their food stamps. it's bad enough one has to apply for and use food stamps. having people look at you like you are some kind of lazy person. A lot of hard working people use food stamps. Thanks to our economy and stagnant wages.... a lot more people need them than used to. I wish people would treat them like people. They for the most part will be making the good choices. The people we see buying crap with their food stamps is not the norm..... it is the rarity. People will use food stamps like they would buy the food themselves if they had the money.

[bobbolink]

159. Obviously, it is the ones posting here who like to set themselves up as superior.

I'm guessing they all smoke and drive Hummers.

[kwassa]

162. The sweet potato is #1 in nutrition of all vegetables

http://www.foodreference.com/html/sweet-pot-nutrition.h...

According to nutritionists at the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), the single most important dietary change for most people, including children, would be to replace fatty foods with foods rich in complex carbohydrates, such as sweet potatoes.

CSPI ranked the sweet potato number one in nutrition of all vegetables. With a score of 184, the sweet potato outscored the next highest vegetable by more than 100 points. Points were given for content of dietary fiber, naturally occurring sugars and complex carbohydrates, protein, vitamins A and C, iron and calcium. Points were deducted for fat content (especially saturated fat), sodium, cholesterol, added refined sugars and caffeine. The higher the score, the more nutritious the food.

Sweet potato baked 184
Potato, baked 83
Spinach 76
Kale 55
Mixed Vegetables 52
Broccoli 52
Winter Squash, Baked 44
Brussels Sprouts 37
Cabbage, Raw 34
Green Peas 33
Carrot 30
Okra 30
Corn on the Cob 27
Tomato 27
Green Pepper 26
Cauliflower 25
Artichoke 24
Romaine Lettuce 24
The Center for Science in the Public Interest, Washington D.C. copyright 1992

[bobbolink]

164. Hurrah! From now on, thats all people on Food Stamps are allowed to buy!

Sweet potatoes, 3 meals a day, every day, and if you can't stand 'em, STARVE, peasant!

To hell with those who are diabetic and hypoglycemic!

[amandabeech]

170. You can make vegetarian chili with kidney beans.

Or regular chili. You'll need canned diced tomatoes and either some tomato sauce or tomato paste. In addition, many recipes call for some onion and maybe little green pepper. You'll have to spring for some chili powder in the spice section,but a little goes a long way.

If you serve the chili over rice or bake some cornmeal bread (there are some prepackaged boxes, but you can make it from scratch) you end up with a complete protein.

Dried beans have to be soaked overnight and drained. They are then ready to cook up. I've made navy bean soup from dried beans and IIRC, that's basically how you do it.

I'm certain that veggie chili recipes, cornbread recipes and techniques for using dried beans are all on the web.

On edit: There's a popular midwestern veggie salad called "three bean salad." Kidney beans are one of the ingredients. Green beans and yellow beans, and sometimes chickpeas, are the other beans. You can used canned veggies for the green and yellow beans and the chickpeas. The dressing is a sweet and sour-ish stuff. It may sound weird, but it's very popular in flyover country. Again, I'm sure that the web has several recipes. Oh yes, it is served cold.

[bobbolink]

177. All those carbs are soOOO good for diabetics and hypoglycemics.

NOT.

Not that it matters. We're just the throwaways.

[amandabeech]

185. Bobbolink, I was replying to poster 119 who wanted to know what to do with kidney beans.

I understand your point about diabetics and hypoglycemics. I have type 1 and type 2 diabetics in my family and I myself had problems with borderline hypoglycemia when I was a teenager. I wouldn't recommend either dish to either group, unless a small portion would fit under dietary guidelines. If I were recommending chili to diabetic or hypoglycemic persons, I would suggest an all meat chili, either beef burger or turkey burger.

I have read your posts here with interest. It sounds amazingly difficult to find healthy food that does not need cooking and is sustaining. That goes for those who live on the street, in a car, or in a room that does not have cooking privileges.

I don't know how you continue on, Bobbolink, but I have real admiration for your ability to continue to survive. I sincerely hope that things change for you soon, so that you have a real roof over your head and a kitchen in which to prepare food that's good for you.

[bobbolink]

187. Thank you. My reply had to do with the ongoing superiority of "I could do , why can't you?" and

the judging over what poor people eat.

If I mistook your post for one of those, I am sorry. It has become overwhelming to deal with all the Calvinist lecturing here.

It is indeed very difficult, and is made worse by the lack of any effort to listen or understand. Everyone thinks they know just what someone else SHOULD do, when they haven't a clue.

Seems to me it is time for most here to learn to LISTEN to what poor people have to say, rather than sitting around handing out prescriptions to those they don't even have a clue about.

I wish you could hear some of the mail I get from poor people who are so hurt by the ugly dismissals here, and just want to give up! It is SHAMEFUL!

[amandabeech]

188. If some try hard and get a lucky break so that they can find a home,

that doesn't mean that everyone can follow their steps. Everyone's situation is different.

I'm sorry that you and others are hurt by these threads. You must feel awful.

I hope that things turn around for you.

P.S., I don't like Calvinist lecturing much, either.

[eilen]

31. When I was a kid, we received foodstamps

and I used to get free lunch tickets at public school. Food prices were not as high-- ground beef and chicken were actually cheap cuts of meat. My parents went to the grocery store once a week, maybe stopped for milk and bread halfway through. We did not get lots of soda. My Mom bought unsweetened koolaid (or the generic brand) and we would mix our own in big pitchers. We ate cream of wheat and my mom would put out colored sugar and cinnamon for us to make it fun to eat (we didn't use alot--they were in shake containers).

Dinners often were pasta (rigatoni with meat sauce) sometimes 2x a week. We sometimes had egg noodles with chunky soup mixed together, tomato soup and grilled cheese, cheaper cuts of porkchops. We actually received government cheese lol and made macaroni and cheese with it. Once in a while my stepfather would get a good buy on steak and we would have that. I hated cube steaks--they were always so tough! When real estate died in the early 1970's, my stepfather got a job managing a slaughterhouse. He hated the job but we always had meat. He had apprenticed when he was young to a meat cutter so could get deals and was able to get this job. He also hunted so we would have venison stew, brisket and ground deer meat. Once in a while we would have popcorn to snack on at night--in one of those popcorn poppers you put the oil in the bottom --before that, JiffyPop. My mom purchased a package of the cheap cookies, a 3 liter soda and a bag of chips for junk food and otherwise purchased fruit (fresh and canned). Those lasted the week, when they were gone-- they were gone and they served to feed a family with 5 kids so no one was getting fat. In fact, no one in my family was overweight. No one ate or drank the last of the "goodies" if they were a kid. We had a serving. We were obviously not low-carb or ate lots of fresh vegetables. There was usually a vegetable serving with dinner. My parents smoked and they drank instant coffee and they were not demons. My Mom ended up getting a job as a secretary (she previously sold real estate too). She could get discounts on health and beauty products at her company store so we had discounts on cold medicine and shampoo. I remember now and then Mom would make a Bundt cake if we were getting company. Big days for candy-- Halloween (we trick&treated as late as we dared), Christmas, Easter. Big days for cake, cookies, pie or ice cream etc were Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Birthdays. In the summer, if we were really bored and driving Mom crazy, the adults would send us to the corner store with a quarter each-- it was good for at least 2 hours of peace for them. A quarter bought penny candy and a candy bar, or a soda and penny candy. It took us forever to decide.

I think some of the problem with today's young and poor is that there is no home economics classes in middle school. Those classes taught us how to plan, cook and budget a grocery list. I used to help my mother when I got home from school by starting dinner and doing housework.

I don't think people need to be told what to purchase with food stamps. Most people make astute decisions on what foods will stretch the best for them through the month.

[exboyfil]

45. Just because you have an education in Home Economics

doesn't mean you have the common sense to do the right thing. A person I know very well has a degree in Home Economics (granted Fashion Merchandising) but she had a bunch of Home Ec classes related to food. She does not have a clue as to how to shop or fix meals. I will quiz her about how much things are in the cart, and she cannot honestly tell me. She does not know how to move through food substitution options to get down to the best values.

I would think we could agree on some items that should not be paid for by foodstamps. For starters sodas, Sugar based candies, Potato Chips. I would go along with chocolate being paid for (reason it is included in survival kits), but Skittles???

I disagree with your assessment about most people making astute decisions. People are governed by passions and feelings - they do not make logical choices. The few times I have eaten with my daughters at school, I was amazed to watch the food getting thrown out.

[bobbolink]

143. So, you are going to run for Food Stamp General?

I just want to know, so I can recognize you as you come inspecting my "choices".

We are happy to be able to sacrifice for you.

[eilen]

173. Kids throw away a lot of food

at school lunches. Parents are not allowed to eat at the free lunches in our city during the summer.

Reasons why kids throw it out-- sometimes it is just bad. You would be surprised at how often the fruit is rotten or dried out.
They are not familiar with the food.

They are not hungry.

It does not taste good. Sometimes the bread is stale tasting. The cut rate peanut butter is gross. The mashed potatoes are gluey. The canned peas are.... well..canned peas.

The "turkey loaf" looks suspect.

Plus they are given plastic sporks to eat everything and if the food is a little bit tough, the spork will snap apart. Mostly at my son's school the kids eat pizza. He does like the breakfast wraps.

If you grow up eating take-out and McDonalds, a fresh butternut squash will look like alien food to you.

[TBF]

34. I don't think you can tell people what to eat -

do you really want to go down that road? Who would make those decisions? Also, how will we arrange to get better quality food to other folks who don't choose it because they are on tight budgets (even if they are not on food stamps)?

You're barking up the wrong tree here. Instead of mandating what people have to buy, maybe look at the overall issue of food in this country and why it is so much easier for folks to afford and choose unhealthy products.

Edited to add - to be clear, I'd have no problem raising the amount of food stamps folks get - particularly if we cut defense spending to put that in the budget

[baldguy]

35. Define "junk food".

If corporations have free reign, "junk food" will be locally-grown raw fruits & vegetables, and highly-processed, prepackaged and nutritionally empty "food" will be all that food stamps can purchase.

[jdp349]

152. It would be easy to come with with a precise definition using nutrient density per calorie

[Starry Messenger]

36. Why not increase the food stamp allotment?

The amount given to families is insanely low. With more money, people could expand their purchasing choices. It's just so crazy, it might work.

[Jmaxfie1]

37. Please read my whole post if you are going to criticize me . .

The title by the way is in reference to an earlier thread. If you read the thing the whole way through you we see that i'm not mandating anyone be forced to eat any certain food item and I say we should raise food stamp allotment. Anyway read the whole thing and then get back to me.

[CTyankee]

41. I believe you are sincere and I really don't like some of the comments directed at you here.

You've come to the conclusion that I have reached after watching this debate play out here in New Haven. I am a Literacy Volunteer and have served in some pretty bad areas, but one thing I have noticed is that newcomers to our country really try to preserve their cultures, and that includes food. At one inner city school where we held ESOL classes for mothers of children in the school we had little food events and the women loved sharing the dishes of their culture. The first generation of immigrants usually do that but later generations get hooked on the junk food (one of its defining characteristic). Our class of moms was made up of Spanish speaking immigrants from central America and Mexico. So here they are in cold New England and they can't grow a lot of their food as they did in their warmer countries all year round. It is heartbreaking that they have to abandon the healthier foods that they had always eaten, just to survive in the U.S.

[Jmaxfie1]

42. Thanks. :)

I know the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think most parents want to feed their kids a bag of potato chips for dinner. But everyone's how dare you suggest they can't feed their kids a box of twinkies for dinner. I think the "choice" to eat junk is more thrust on them than it is a real choice.

[CTyankee]

47. I see it your way. I feel that it is demeaning to say that poor people are just gonna feed their

kids junk and then throw up our hands in despair.

I have seen thru personal experience how these people can worn down. They have desperate lives. I remember one girl who was my granddaughter's age, coming in and being her "mother's" translator. The "mother" looked more like a grandmother and I asked the girl if she was indeed her mother or her grandmother. The girl (about 11 years of age) replied that "they gave me to her." IOW, she had been abandoned by her parents and was "given" to this lady. I had to fight back tears that instantly sprung to my eyes...I often wonder what happened to this girl, who was so obviously intelligent and serious about getting her "mother" help in learning English...

[Jmaxfie1]

48. that's a sad story, hopefully she did all right for herself. n/t

[Littlecat]

43. I am on food stamps

$207 a month for a family of four. I agree with the original poster, food stamps should only be used for healthy food. I try to make the best choices possible, lots of fruit, veggies and I cook dinner every night, we even eat at the dining room table believe it or not. I try to buy organic whenever possible, avoid high fructose corn syrup and am very concerned about GMOs. My grocery list is always well thought out and I consider quality as much as quantity when making my choices. I don't think food stamps should be used for pop, candy or chips. This is free food and I don't think it's unreasonable to put some limitations on it. I also think it should be expanded to include necessary nonfood items such as toothpaste and toilet paper.

[Jmaxfie1]

46. Me too, I know a lot of states ban multi-vitamins also?

Toilet, shampoo, etc. should be included, I don't know why they are not sense they pretty much are essentials. The vitamin thing gets me also. I can understand if they banned like weight lose supplements and stuff like that.

[Littlecat]

51. I think it's funny when people say

"How can the government tell someone that they can't feed their children an entire box of Marshmallow Peeps for dinner, this is America!" No one is suggesting that they can't do that, they just shouldn't be able to pay for it with food stamps. I don't want my tax dollars to go toward junk like that. If they want to eat crap then they can pay for it with their own money.

[Raksha]

102. I am getting so sick and tired of this "my tax dollars" crap.

It isn't just YOUR tax dollars! It's everyone's tax dollars including the recipient's. Everyone pays taxes. Even homeless people have to pay sales tax on non-food items like toilet paper. Many of the people currently on food stamps are "nouveau poor," formerly middle class types who are down on their luck, possibly long-term unemployed. In the past they paid a lot in taxes, as several people explained earlier in the thread.

A lot of people here on DU have a major problem with THEIR tax dollars being used to finance the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and bail out banksters. That's a much more valid beef than using "your" tax dollars an excuse to micromanage someone else's life.

[ejpoeta]

161. you can't buy marshmallow peeps with food stamps. wth!

people who have food stamps buy the same groceries as the rest of us do. they just use food stamps. and why should you be able to judge what they buy. It's like you think they just buy beer and crap with their food stamps. but they don't. they use it to buy groceries to feed their families. i am just amazed at how people can act towards others. i don't want my tax dollars paying for xyz..... these people pay taxes too. well, the nutjobs go around saying they don't want their tax dollars paying for women to have abortions. or birth control pills..... and i don't want my tax dollars paying for wars. but we do. quit worrying about what someone who gets food stamps is buying. because 99% of them aren't buying anything but food to feed their kids.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. +1 n/t

[datasuspect]

52. they should use them to buy cadillacs

yet another iteration of Reagan-era nonsense.

why do people have this need to tell poor people what to do?

[JVS]

66. Duh!

Because people with money telling people with less money what to do is the underpinning of our system.

[Pithlet]

67. I agree.

The idea that poor people are dumb and need to be told what to do is very Reaganesque.

[Patiod]

61. WIC tries this now

I am always amazed at the way WIC micro-manages food choices. In my local grocery store there's:
frozen peas - WIC approved
frozen peas in sauce - not WIC approved.

Really?

[CTyankee]

65. It could have to do with sodium levels. I have found that "sauced" frozen vegetables

have a much higher sodium content than the plain ones. Nobody needs the extra sodium. It isn't healthy...

[Patiod]

74. Actually, I use the labels to help me choose

I avoid the non-WIC frozen foods for just those reason - don't need any of the extra calories.

But it does seem a little micro-managing; maybe the sauce tempts kiddies to eat their vegetables....better sauced veggies than no veggies at all

[CTyankee]

99. That's true, but hubby and I both are on blood pressure meds so it's important for us.

However, even for the kids, high sodium "trains" the taste buds to want/like more salt in their food, which cannot be good for them down the road...

[ejpoeta]

158. they only allow plain anything pretty much. nothing fancy.

[lapislzi]

63. K+R+ heart

I admire you for taking on this thorny topic. Yes, it's been a bete noir for DU for ages now, as you can see. I also like to see a newer DUer supporting his/her own thread to keep the discussion going, and someone open-minded enough to embrace all the viewpoints. Nice job.

So many factors, most of which are outlined above. Corn lobby has way too much power. Food and nutrition education is nonexistent. Food deserts are real.

My family was on food stamps when I was growing up. And my mother was a genius at feeding us. The only "junk" in the house was the occasional box of corn flakes. Dinner might be baked beans, eggs, and toast, but I only went to bed slightly hungry. Canned soup? Never. Ketchup? Doled out with an eye dropper. Soda? You got that at other people's houses, never at mine. A can of tuna fish had to stretch for two meals. (By the time it got to the table, it was tuna-flavored celery-and-mayonnaise salad).

The point I am making is that it is HARD to eat well and healthily, food stamps or no. It requires thought, planning, and knowledge, in addition to the availability and affordability of healthy choices.

And don't let anyone tell you that food isn't a political issue.

[Jmaxfie1]

64. Thanks for the heart and and encouragement! :)

[Shagbark Hickory]

68. My idea is to just ban junk food but I'm what you call a

"common sense communist"

Really. If it makes people fat and unhealthy, why have it at all? Or tax the daylights out of it.
Low income people will eat more affordable food. Just the same as they don't buy caviar.

[lapislzi]

80. Not in the Land of King Corn

As for taxing it...cigarette taxes aren't doing much to stop the epidemic of smoking.

[Shagbark Hickory]

107. Sure as hell got me to quit. And that was long before Obama's really big cig tax.

The regulations surrounding tobacco and the taxes thereof, while milder than I would have done personally, they seem to be effective in that cigarette use has declined, especially amongst young adults.

[lapislzi]

110. I WISH my daughter had less disposable income

Everyone wants their teenager to get a job. Until you find cigarettes in their purse, purchased by the older boyfriend. I almost (almost!) begged her to smoke pot instead. I've never smoked. Breaks my heart to see somebody so young get hooked on an unhealthy, unpopular, expensive, and stinky habit.

[Shagbark Hickory]

121. I'm sorry to hear that. If it were up to me, tobacco would be banned.

More specifically, it would be illegal to produce and sell tobacco products.
It would also be illegal to use cigarettes in movies.

The tobacco industry is responsible for mass genocide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. As well intentioned as you are

read on food deserts... it will explain to you WHY the poor consume so much junk...

These food deserts are on purpose I suspect.

Let me get you started

http://www.fooddesert.net/

[MineralMan]

82. When someone receives food stamps, it should be their choice

what food to buy with them. I think it is that simple. Give the recipients the dignity to make their own choices. That said, there should be programs available to help people learn how to make the most of a limited food budget. Voluntary programs that can be utilized or not, on the choice of the individual. Back in the 1970s, I worked on a project that was designed to do just that. It was actually very well-attended, and not just by food stamp recipients. We developed shopping lists and recipes that used the ingredients on the lists to provide healthy meals within a very tight food budget. We even had cooking classes for those who wanted them, where we demonstrated the preparation of the actual meals. It was a lot of work to create, but it was well worth the work. The program helped hundreds of families make the most of a limited food budget

Being poor does not mean being stupid, and every person deserves the dignity of making choices. It is that simple, as far as I am concerned.

[leftstreet]

86. Why single out impoverished people? Lots of working class on food assistance

Do you have the same .... concerns that working and middle class people are eating junk?

[old mark]

92. I think people should make their own choices.Poor people are still adults with rights

just the same as those of us who are not poor...Many people -in fact most people - use food stamps temporarily. We used them years ago when I could not work after several heart attacks and bypass surgery. It didn't make us any less intelligent human beings, just intelligent human beings without a lot of money.

Besides, I love donuts.

mark

[lapislzi]

97. I love donuts, too

And I'm really, really glad that donuts aren't the only food I can afford to buy, or the only food available to me.

Because if they were, I might be dead, or diabetic, or suffer from some other chronic condition that could be traced to bad nutrition. I could easily become (gasp!) a burden on the state due to my poor choices.

No one is suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to choose the foods they want to eat, or to feed their families. I am all about providing education about good nutrition to every man, woman, and child in America. And to providing healthful, appealing choices to compete alongside the neon-flavored garbage.

Bananas are cheaper than Ring Dings, and taste just as good. Nuts are more nutritious and every bit as filling as Doritos.

People need to be shown these connections. It's a matter of the greater public good, like seat belts. Good choices ensure a safe and healthy population, which is ultimately CHEAPER on society.

Then if after all that, they still want the Ring Dings, there's nothing in the world I could or would do to stop them.

[old mark]

166. It may amaze you, but poor people can READ and many have some intelligence!

You sound as if you are talking about some sub-species of human that cannot be counted on to make decisions for themselves.


mark

[bobbolink]

144. Thank you for a bit of sanity. However, as you can see, most here don't see poor people

as either intelligent OR adults.

They see us as objects to judge and manipulate.

How... quaint for those Democratic values. We need a program so we can tell them apart from the Republican values.

[KurtNYC]

98. I think it is a myth that junk food is cheap

It isn't cheaper than healthier food. Potato chips are $5/pound, broccoli is $2. Chicken is $2.50/pound but doughnuts are $10/pound. Tap water free, carbonated HFCS $4/gal. Junk food is heavily marketed and widely available because of the amount of profit it can make.

It costs a lot to be poor. No bank account? then you pay a percentage of everything to money orders, check cashing places and the like. Limited travel means you have to shop close to home which limits choices and doesn't allow much price comparison shopping.

Also, one doesn't have to eat "health food" to eat healthier. I think a 10% change in one's diet can make a 50% change in the way you feel (if you change the right 10%). For people of any income, I think small adjustments are worth it and sustainable, while radical changes are unsustainable and over-rated.

[Nevernose]

150. It might be safer to say high-carb foods and foods that are

Easier to prepare are cheaper. For many people around here, the solution seems to be farmer's markets (which admittedly I love), but the nutritional value of frozen veggies is often higher than in fresh vegetables.

I've been on food stamps. Fed my kid on food stamps. I think I'm qualified to ask how much of the poor dietary habits of the poor is because of poor food education, how much is due to proximity to a grocer, how much is due to the exhaustion that poverty brings, and how much is due to the I-just-don't-give-a-shit-anymore attitude that is referred to in polite circles as "the inertia of poverty."

It's a complex issue, with many causes and many complex solutions.

[Jmaxfie1]

153. Good ideas, complex issue n/t

[bobbolink]

100. you asked for ideas... here they are. 1. Start by considering poor people as PEOPLE

and drop the crap about how to manipulate them as object to do your bidding.

That is the first thing, because until you do that, no amount of parently manipulating is going to change ANYTHING.

It is really sad that people cannot understand that you first start with LISTENING to people, and getting to know them. THat is the ONLY way that change occurs, and all of you should know this by now.

[Zoeisright]

118. There are many, many, MANY larger problems to think about.

Namely, let's quit blaming and pointing fingers at the people on the bottom of the economic ladder and start putting blame where it belongs - on repukes and the super rich.

You're being played. As long as the middle and working class keep thinking of ways to keep the lower class down, the rich are stealing more money.

Wake up and grow up. And mind your own business.

[bobbolink]

145. THANK YOU!!

[yellowcanine]

120. I am not convinced this is a problem in the first place. I would rate it up there with welfare

moms pulling up in a Cadillac in terms of urban legends. Who is to say that food stamp recipients spend much of their allotment on junk food? Do we have a study that shows this?

[bobbolink]

146. Study, schmudy. We gots our judgments to foment, donchaknow?

[ejpoeta]

160. they must. just like they just sit back and collect welfare and don't even bother

looking for work. of course there are always going to be those who do buy crap. i have seen it myself. but MOST PEOPLE just buy regular groceries to feed themselves and their kids. the same groceries the rest of us buy.

[ZombieHorde]

126. Is there anything more satisfying than telling people how to live their lives?

I think so, but I think I am in an extreme minority. Enjoy your fantasy power trip!

[Jmaxfie1]

134. Here is what the original debate was about:

Would it be better to receive:

1. $300 dollars a month with restrictions on what one buys?
or
2. $200 dollars a month with no restrictions?

The original question posed is about a funding problem particularly in Red States. You can tell a Republican State Congress all you want about how food stamps are a right and people should get to do what they want with it. You aren't going to receive a one cent increase. If you get the Big Farm PACs behind you, you probably could get an increase since so much of their money goes to Republicans. In Red States it is an either or option. At first I was for option 1 but have pretty much changed my mind. Now I am for, if it could some how be set-up a pilot program called say, The Food Choice program. Basically people could opted in to option 1, it would not be mandatory.

[bobbolink]

147. Setting up false dichotomies in order to judge more people isn't instructive.

Nor is it helpful.

I gave you the suggestion you said you were looking for, but of course you ignored it.

The first step is... ASK POOR PEOPLE!!

Contrary to your belief, we ARE people.

[Jmaxfie1]

148. Ok, how do we raise food stamp allotment in the South? n/t

[bobbolink]

149. By having the guts to do so.

Dems stopped working for the best interests of poor people a long time ago, then get angry as poor people see the crap and stop voting for it.

Be a mensch and fight for what is right. Your false dichotomy would NEVER see the light of day, and you know it. All you did was create a fight that divided more DUers, and left us poor people feeling even MORE disenfranchized.

Great job.

[JVS]

154. The same thing we pass get anything done. Threaten their highway funding and other pork.

[yellowcanine]

172. There is a large Federal program to teach food stamp recipients how to do food budgets

and buy nutritious food so that both the allotment and their own resources go further. It is the Food Security and Nutrition Education (FSNE) program. It is available (if supported by states) in every county in the United States which has a significant number of people eligible for food stamps or the free and reduced fee school lunch program. Rather than dinking around with a lot of difficult to enforce mandates on food choice, we ought to be supporting these kinds of programs. Instead of paying for food police we should pay for more FSNE educators who can accomplish the same thing and more. There are lots of things which would not qualify as "junk food" which may not necessarily be a good buy which stretches the food dollar.

[U4ikLefty]

155. I've been on food stamps and sometimes a candy bar was the only pleasure

I had in those times.

Let them have a fucking candy bar and their dignity!!!

[bobbolink]

163. NO! You are supposed to suffer, goddammit!!

[xmas74]

190. Or, like I posted in the other thread,

my kid should go without a small treat when there's nothing else for her.

Who cared if the other kids laughed at her for getting nothing? Seven year olds (almost eight at the time) should toughen up if they are poor.

[Xicano]

179. How about we increase food stamp allotment and let people decide for themselves what food they eat.

Why make increasing food stamp allotment conditional?