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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 08:58 PM
Original message
December 20, 1860.
South Carolina votes to secede from the United States and calls on President James Buchanan to evacuate Federal forts in Charleston. Union Major Richard Anderson removes his men to Fort Sumpter, far out in Charleston Harbor "to prevent the effusion of blood". Buchanan vows to protect Federal installations throughout the south.

And the shit was about to hit the fan. Hope there's some folks out in DU willing to discuss the sesquicentennial of the American Iliad. Been studying it my whole life. The most written about chapter in our short history. Please feel free to join in!!
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Welcome outside of the Sports Forum, Condem!
Did you read about the Senator from Tennessee that called out the South and Jefferson Davis for threatening secession?

His name was Andrew Johnson.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Later impeached, mad.
Figures coming out of Tennessee. If you're in to this shit the NY Times is doing a day by day deal on the Civil War. nytimes.com. But who needs that. this stuff is embedded in my head. My sisters still hate me when my father took us on a tour of the battlefields when I was 11.
Hit 'em all in VA and PA (and MD). Truly, the light went on at six years old.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Thank you for mentioning the NYT coverage
Fascinating!
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. One of the best union generals was a southerner, his men fought
on Grant's flank.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Let's hear about it, bluestate.
Sounds like the campaign of '64. Wilderness? Spottsylvania?
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. You talking about General George Thomas?
The Rock of Chickamauga?
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. Beat me to it!
Not sure exactly where he fits on "Grant's flank" ... as I recall, Grant took charge of the army in Eastern Tennessee when it was under siege in Chattanooga, after Chickamauga.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. I think the general's last name was Johnston.
Edited on Wed Dec-22-10 06:30 PM by bluestate10
He fought with Grant out west of the Mississippi, the most significant battle in that part was Vicksburg, MS.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Bad choice, Johnston was a confederate general. Puke. nt
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'll have to be mostly an observer on this thread since I'm not so well versed,
certainly not at your level. Nevertheless, I'm interested to see what might develop. In truth, I only clicked out of curiosity aroused by your subject line. "What," I asked myself, "was significant about 150 years ago today that someone might bring it up here?" Thanks for posting! :hi:
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thank you, man4allcats.
Got 15 of them. Cats, that is. I cannot describe the aura you feel at Gettysburg or Antietam. You have to discover that for yourself. Let's just say the goosebumps stand out a whole lot. Been to those fields over 50 times each (but not in 20 years) but I miss the feeling!!
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. 15?! That's all I need to know!
You are a good person indeed! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. My goosebumps were highest at Spotsylvania's Bloody Angle
I've been to several battlefields and I have to rank Gettysburg & Anteitam at the top of that list, but I visited Spotsylvania after having read Shelby Foote's account of that action in his superb trilogy of the Civil War. The Spotsylvania battlefield isn't nearly as well preserved as some of the others, but there are still mounds along the breastworks at the Bloody Angle where the most incredibly savage fighting of the war took place. I photocopied the passage from Foote's book and read it on the spot, afterwards leaving it for others to read.

Here's a link with a description of the battle:
http://thomaslegioncherokee.tripod.com/bloodyanglebattl...
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Been there many a time. But it's been a score since the last visit.
There's a piece of a tree at the Smithsonian (Museum of American History) that was cut in half by musket fire at the Bloody Angle. It wasn't exactly a twig. A good sized specimen. How's the fight with Walmart going? Any idea? I remember seeing that a potential superstore was threatening the Spotsylvania Battlefield.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Not familiar with the battle with Walmart ...
... but if Walmart corporation desecrates that hallowed ground I hope the ghosts of the fallen rise up to haunt the place.

Regarding the oak felled by musket fire, there is a plaque near the Bloody Angle to commemorate the spot. I can't even begin to imagine what I would have done if I was a soldier thrust into that melee.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Looks like we lost.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. I've been there...
it's a chilling place when you understand the story.

Personally... I'm more touched at an emotional level with the Union line near Emmitsburg Road (Cemetary Ridge) or Culp's Hill.

But the entire Wilderness is full of battlefields that spanned 3 or 4 years... great place to visit. When I was last there, a family of deer crossed the forest road right in front of my car. Not nervous at all, just walking like cattle.

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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. YEAHAAAAA!!!!
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. LOL, El.
The Texans got their ass kicked on July 2nd, 1863 at Little Round Top. But that's another thread a couple years from now.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. You fool! The Alabambians got their asses kicked.
John Bell Hood did not command Texans in the battle. He wasn't even a Texan.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. 3 regiments of Texans were on that hill.
Edited on Mon Dec-20-10 09:32 PM by Condem
By the time they attacked, Hood was long out of the battle. Oates commanded.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Bull! Show me.
They were at Devils Den and the Wheat Field.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It was July 3rd. One day after Little Round Top.
The Texas Brigade was involved in heavy fighting on the slopes of Little Round Top and fell back to south side of Devil's Den before leaving the battlefield on the evening of July 3.

Hood's Texas Brigade included three Texas infantry regiments -- the 1st, 4th and 5th -- and the 3rd Arkansas. Its commander, Brig. General Jerome Bonaparte Robertson, was among the wounded.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Sorry, El.
No action for these fellas on July 3rd. Chamberlain beat the shit out of them on the 2nd.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18.  4th and 5th with remnants of the 1st.
Time-Life. Along with three Alabama regiments.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. Ok


Looks like Tx on the hill to me.

-Hoot
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Excellent, hoot.
LOL. After 45 years of studying I still mix up a brigade and a regiment. Evander Law had taken command after Hood went down just after the attack commenced at 4:00 PM. William Oates took over.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. The Texans did not attack Chamberlain's 20th Maine.
There were three Alabama regiments on the right, just like your maps shows. That is where the battle was won.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. No one claimed they did
The claim was that Texans advanced on Little Round Top. They did indeed.

Further, reading your posts, you appear a bit confused. Oh and since I'm here I may as well address this from Post 11:

John Bell Hood did not command Texans in the battle. He wasn't even a Texan.


From wikipedia At 4:30 p.m., Hood stood in his stirrups at the front of the Texas Brigade and shouted, "Fix bayonets, my brave Texans! Forward and take those heights!"


But then in post 16 you claim Hood commanded Texans up Little Round top.

Agreed that the Texans did not engage Chamberlain's 20th Maine, but neither were they at the wheatfield or Devils Den unless it was after their assault on LRT. The assertion they did came well into the discussion and was in error.

The assertion that the battle was won by Chamberlain on LTR is debatable. Had he not held, it would have weakened the Union position considerably, but in hindsight, many opportunities for a clear advantage were squandered by both sides. Most notably was Ewell's timidity interpreting orders on the evening of the first day.

Personally I prefer Longstreet's notion of marching south and finding good ground. Meade would have been forced to attack because DC was already nervous about having Lee to their north and would have gone batshit crazy if he had cut Meade off from DC.

-Hoot
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Personally I prefer Longstreet's statement...
that we should have first freed the slaves then fired on Ft. Sumpter. Even though he became a hated Republican later, he was correct here.

And the ONLY commander who was to blame was Lee. He ruined the whole South by ordering that stupid charge. My Texas family has hated him since. I wish there wasn't a statue of him in Lee Park in Dallas.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I prefer Pickett's statement at Gettysburg, El.
Asked about all the 'what ifs' (and did he hate Lee after that battle is a severe understatement- "that man ruined my division") he stated
"I think the Union army had something to do with the outcome". For a man who finished dead last in his class at West Point, this hit's the proverbial nail on the fucking coffin.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Um...
Really? Lee ruined the Whole South? So, assuming you mean Pickett's charge, in what way did Lee ruin the South?

As to Longstreet's quote, I'd not heard that before. Do you have a citation? Units under his command were rounding up blacks for return to Virginia during the Gettysburg campaign.

-Hoot
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Who's talking about the Whole South?
What in the hell are you talking about?
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. My bad, hoot.
Thought you were talking to me.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. snort

:rofl:

-Hoot
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. Wrong flag, I believe
What flag would have flown over South Carolina in the last days of 1860?
:shrug:
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14thColony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Your observation is correct
That flag (in its actual form, which isn't that one) wouldn't exist until later, and then only as an army battle standard for one of the two main CSA armies.

If you want to know what secessionist flag South Carolina used, today it's called "The State Flag of South Carolina" - for all practical purposes identical to the 1860 secessionist flag of the Republic of South Carolina.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. This was a last step in a process that started 20 years before
like all civil wars it built, until it became inevitable. Why the current echo scares me. It has a similar feel not to 1860, but 1859.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. It was an inevitable powderkeg, nadin.
What was to come still amazes. More men were killed, wounded or missing in three days at Gettysburg than the casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Crazy shit.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. According to one record.
Edited on Wed Dec-22-10 06:53 PM by bluestate10
51,000 casualties, 10,000 dead or mortally wounded, 10,000 missing or captured. The Union side suffered just over 3,000 dead.

Didn't his failure to chase a badly beaten and retreating confederate force cost Meade his command of the Army of the Potomac?
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
61. god yes! I feel like I'm looking at James Buchanan and the Whigs
whenever I watch our Democratic "leaders" at work.

My only comfort is that I'm just a hop skip and jump from Canada.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. Traitors.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. as defined by the victors? nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Nope. Just stinking rotten traitors.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. People that fought for the confederacy were traitors.
Confederates fought against a union which all states had vowed to protect. That is treason, whether they won or lost.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. All I know about it I learned from genealogy
A number of my Alabama ancestors and their relatives were in the Confederate Army. None of my direct ancestors came out of it unscathed. One great-great-grandfather died of pneumonia six weeks after his only son was born and never got to see his child. Another one lost an arm - "accidentally shot off" in training. Another was injured, captured an as a prisoner of war spent time in a camp hospital, then after he recovered, he helped others and apparently was an acting orderly. He came out pretty good - although he never had formal training, he later was licensed as a medical doctor. But as the sole surviving son, he ended up heading a household that included a widowed sister and two widowed sisters-in-law and all their children. His father in his petition to Andrew Johnson to have his rights restored claimed he was responsible for fourteen orphaned grandchildren. One of the sons-in-law left Alabama before the war and moved to Arkansas to avoid the worst ravages. He died in Arkansas,leaving a young widow to try to handle the farm with the help of her uncle.

In high school, my American History teacher was one of those who taught about the "War of Northern Aggression" - most her of lessons were on how ill treated the South was before, during and after the war. My mother's family on the other hand never glorified, never "bragged" on their Confederate veterans. Rather, they had pretty much put that past behind them.

I've been downloading military records from the National Archives - they give a bare bones outline of what the people went through, and we have a few tales from the next generations about the survivors. Not one "glorious" tale of defending Southern honor or any such crap.

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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Here's the deal, csziggy.
You went to war with your buddies and brothers. If you found yourself in a tough spot, say, the Cornfield at Antietam, a whole town was decimated. There was a town from Tennessee (Clarksville) that lost 90% of the male population at Gettysburg.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Yeah, by the number of widows just in the family
It was obvious that the death rate was horrific. Even among the children it was bad - lack of supplies allowed for a lot of malnutrition and disease. The loss of prosperity in the South after the war was not just from losing the cheap slave labor - they lost a generation of men and knowledge.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-22-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. Tough spot - Antietam cornfield
greatest understatement ever.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Here is where treason began and, by God, here is where it'll end!" n/t.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. John Brown's body lies a lyin' in the grave...
..but his soul is marchin' on.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. I think his body lies "a-mold'ring" in the grave
In any event, he was right when he said I, John Brown, am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with Blood.

I wonder what it will take to purge the crimes of today.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. Around these parts
they still call it the "War of Northern Aggression"
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-20-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. Ever since I spotted your post I've been digging around in my computer room/library for a neat
manuscript that was given to me years ago.

It's probably packed away in the attic, but it was a Xeroxed copy of a great-great-great-Uncle's Civil War diary that every member of my family had given to them as a gift back in the 90's at a huge family reunion we had in Kansas City. One of my distant cousins had the original "diary," which he'd had handed down over generations, but all it really was a loosely bound sheet of ordinary writing paper that marked my Great-Uncle's time in a volunteer Indiana regiment during the year 1864.

It's not exactly an action-packed war narrative: my Great-Uncle mostly seemed to be employed by the Army to guard supply wagons, baggage "trains" (these apparently weren't real trains, but something else), and small groups of Confederate prisoners waiting, I guess, to be sent to POW camps.

In fact, in all eighty some pages there's only mention of any "action" twice: some Confederate calvary skirmishes with "piks" (I assume Union guys) trying to get to some of the supplies, but he doesn't mention whether he participated in the skirmish or not, just that it was going on close to his position and there was some shooting.

Another time, a rebel sharpshooter takes out a man in their column, and everyone skedaddles for cover until the sniper can be found and killed.

Most of his military service seemed to consist of boredom, repetition, and tobacco (he's constantly bitching about the tobacco ration - he thinks it's inadequate for his needs).

For some reason he stopped keeping the diary a week or so before New Years day, 1865. Family lore says he contracted pneumonia that almost killed him around this time, but recovered and was released from the Army shortly afterwards.

Anyway, not much to it, but still an interesting little read for members of my family. Your OP is going to motivate me to find where I stored it, and re-read it again. Thanks! :thumbsup:
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
28. There was some other action too. My great-great grandfather
on my dad's side was a Norwegian immigrant farmer in southern Minnesota. The Sioux Uprising there in 1864 could have gotten him had he lived 11 miles further west. A Union general, John Pope, had to come up and put down the Sioux after a lot of lives were lost.
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
31. Here's the piece from the NY Times, who will follow the Civil War in the opinionator.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
36. +1!!! Cool thread. Love to read people who KNOW Civil War facts. nt
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Condem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Well, GS. I was too young for the centennial (born in '59)
So, I've been waiting for this deal. Looks like a lot of other folks have, too. I'll follow the coverage in the Grey Lady and post on many an occasion in the coming years. Me and my buddy McClelland. The Scotch, not the General.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. The other December Day of Infamy. -nt
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. Is that anywhere near Fort Sumter?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-21-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yes it's right underneath it.
The sump is always in the basement.

-Hoot
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
62. Clever, indeed! Go Steelers!
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