For all the female doubters on the DU....a GIRL WON the Alaska State Wrestling Title in 2006.....

[KansasVoter]

The Admins said I needed to restate my point less enthusiastically.

So anyone here who is saying girls cannot or should not compete, read this....

ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) -- Michaela Hutchison became the first girl in the nation to win a state high school wrestling title while competing against boys.

Hutchison won the final of the 103-pound weight class during Alaska's big school wrestling championships. The Skyview High sophomore entered the state tournament ranked No. 1 in her weight class.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/02/06/girl.w... /

[riderinthestorm]

1. K and R to the top!

:hi:

[demmiblue]

2. To strong women everywhere...

especially on this day!

[MrModerate]

3. I only dipped into the threads you referred me to in the other (now locked) post . . .

So I might have missed something, but the theme of the "girls can't wrestle" proponents seemed to be an opinion about comparable muscular strength and the danger of injury.

I don't happen to buy those arguments personally, but I wouldn't have characterized them as sexist. A gender-based argument, perhaps, but not exactly sexist, as the term is usually used.

With regard to the male athlete who said his religious beliefs prohibited him wrestling with females, that strikes me as utter bullshit. Even Islam isn't that explicit about coed athletic contests (notwithstanding repressive practices in the Islamic world). I'd have a little respect for the kid if he'd said he personally was uncomfortable with the match, but blaming it on a religious injunction is just cowardice.

[riderinthestorm]

4. The meme of keeping girls and women "safe" from injury

has been used for millennium to keep women home. Keeping them "safe" was code for keeping them unequal. That's sexist. Period.

[KansasVoter]

6. +1000

[MrModerate]

9. I sense we're going to get off track here, but . . .

Relations between the sexes, roles, etc., etc., is intensely complicated and often comes down the the way a single individual interacts with her or his fellow humans. "Period" doesn't come within a lightyear of capturing that complexity.

[riderinthestorm]

11. Fortunately for this girl, the sports authorities didn't "nuance" her relationship

with the other competitors. She came, she competed with the boys, and won.

Sometimes it is that simple.

[MrModerate]

13. Yep. Sometimes it is. n/t

[AsahinaKimi]

17. I DID TOO

This wasn't EXACTLY Tennis, if you know what I mean. For anyone whacked with a Shinai,
You don't forget that feeling. I even broke a guys nose once, (Suspended for a day, he got
suspended for a month~long story.)

[MrModerate]

47. Big sticks are often an effective equalizer. n/t

[bettyellen]

35. you know people always try to rationalise single acts as not part of a pattern of racism or sexism -

but if the shoe fits, it fits. It's definately part of a pattern that some of us have notcied all our lives.

[MrModerate]

48. No argument there. n/t

[KansasVoter]

5. I honestly think many "muscular strength and the danger of injury" posts are hidden...

sexist talk.

Sort of like "blacks and whites should not get married because the kids will be teased" arguments.

[MrModerate]

12. I'm sure you're right -- although I'd say "some" rather than "many." n/t

[spooky3]

15. the crux of the problem is failing to recognize variations in distributions.

Even if there are mean differences in upper body strength by gender (unlike probably >90% of the mean differences hypothesized over the ages, which have been shown to be bogus), there are distributions for each gender that overlap, such that a significant number of girls/women are stronger than a significant number of boys/men who are otherwise similar. Denying someone an opportunity to compete based on gender-based strength differences is sexist because it presumes that the distributions do not overlap at all.

[Shandris]

14. First of all...so a woman/girl has won a State Championship at wrestling.

Am I supposed to be surprised? I'm not...I don't find females to be any less capable than males at anything.

OTOH, I would gently point out that while some small number of the 'lesser injury' crowd are doing so from a sexist position, it is the same argument used in determining why there are different '-weights' in wrestling, even among boys-only teams, and is much more likely to be thought of from that context. I could be wrong...but at least in my eyes, if lesser injury were my concern, that's where it would stem from -- not from being sexist.

Then again...I'm not like most of the guys in my part of the world, so like I said...I could be wrong.

[spooky3]

16. I'm not tracking your argument. Since the weights are controlled (e.g.,

103 lb. wrestlers wrestle others of the same weight) how does that account for an argument for excluding girls or refusing to compete against them in the same weight class?

[AngryAmish]

30. The argument rest in average power/weight ratios between the sexes.

Statistical outliers are statistical outliers.

[RocketTuna]

Read Spooky's explanation above

and lrn2statistics.

These aren't outliers, overlap is the norm. The reason you have so few girls winning state championships in wrestling is because you have so few competing - because to be a girl and compete is to put up with a lot of extra bull that the boys don't even have to think about.

And this girl isn't exactly a bruiser - 103lbs? I think I weighed more than that when I was nine. This is a small person for either gender - and a whole other kind of outlier. But pretending all female bodied people weigh less than 110 lbs is just ridiculous (unless you ask the fashion industry...whole other topic).


Edit: typo ..nrrgh

[Ikonoklast]

52. At that weight class in wrestling, superior speed and technique are the difference

between winning and losing.

You are talking of two people of comparable muscle mass at that weight and age; strength would not necessarily be the deciding factor at all.

[BlueJazz]

7. So ?

[KansasVoter]

8. This is where you say "congrats to women wrestlers", sad I had to remind you!

[BlueJazz]

19. Of course it's a nice thing to hear but I still believe that Women should not have to compete..

...with Men.
If there were Female teams the girl would probably be a National champion.

[riderinthestorm]

20. These are children we're talking about!

Can you not read at all?

14 and 16 year old children!

[BlueJazz]

26. Not the Point.

[riderinthestorm]

40. It was YOUR point. nt

[KansasVoter]

21. I 100% agree. But not enough girls wrestlers yet.

[Obamanaut]

29. Separate but equal? nt

[RocketTuna]

31. Yes, those poor little women....

...couldn't possibly win against a bunch of men!!

Are you going to start waxing poetic about the White Man's Burden next?

[BlueJazz]

37. No....but If I, (a 6'2 220lb...um..fairly well-built male) had to play...

..contact sports with individuals that were 6' 10 and weighed 340lb, I'd tell them to go F**k
themselves.
Damned if I'm going to compete with a very small chance of getting a fair playing field and
I certainly don't expect others to do the same.

If the competition is "Mentally" than Bring it on! (Chess or whatever)

[RocketTuna]

38. You assume all women are significantly smaller than all men

Factually untrue. There is far more overlap in size than the hypothetical you present.

There is far more physical difference between any two women or any two men than there is a generalizable difference between all men and women. Think about that in the context of what you said. Think *really* hard.

Further, I am in a martial art without weight classes. Everybody fights everybody else, and you learn the strengths and weaknesses of every body. I have fought and won against men your size ( and women not far from it ). I am 5'4". My height serves to my advantage in the ring more often than not, especially now that I know how to use it. Physical difference does not equate physical inferiority - and I'm not just talking in the philosophical "everyone has something to offer" sense. Our tendency to over-value muscle strength in the upper arms and equate height with athleticism is nothing more than a cultural quirk. Just like assuming people with blue eyes are more intelligent than people with brown eyes. Winning an arm wrestling match with someone predicts ....that you will win another arm wrestling match. Nothing more. Yet we continue to assume that arm wrestling and other single ability matches predict overall physical potential in individuals (and then over generalize to the groups they belong to).

I will probably lose to some of the big guys I train with in an arm wrestling match. That is a test of arm strength and size. But when I am in the ring, and my skill gives me the ability to use my body in ways that serve me and disadvantage my opponent, I have a very good chance of winning. And I do, frequently. Yet you would assume by looking, simply looking, at my height and my average build that I should not even enter into a fight with these guys I go toe to toe with on a regular basis. And if you were to get your way, you would deny both me and my training companions valuable experience.

[BlueJazz]

42. You equate with what I say to "I'm going to make it a law"...not true.

Plus..every Women is not like you.
I still say: Take one hundred Female athletes, One hundred Male Athletes and put them in their chosen
sport.
THe Males will win nearly every match.
Not Fair any more than taking one hundred small males and competing with normal males.
Not Fair.

If they want to do it..Fine but expect to hear: "Of course you won John, you outweigh them by 60 lbs...Big deal"

And again...My feelings have nothing to do with how I would vote on the subject.

The Women want to compete against the Men?? Let THEM be the ones to decide.

[RocketTuna]

43. Comprehension fail, dude....

**facepalm**

[BlueJazz]

44. I understand what you are saying. I just think it's a pile of Self-Glorification

You beat Men sometimes..So What? If you desire to be the Top in your sport...winning once in-a-while ain't gonna' cut it. It impresses no one. You could probably take me down in a match...that's still not saying anything...I'm very average in the martial arts.
One action does not constitute a Universe.

[RocketTuna]

45. No, I'm an example

of what happens when you stop obsessing over presumed gender differences. And it is one more example than you have for your broad sweeping assertions and hypotheticals.

I've no desire to be the "top of my sport" (though I did say I win frequently, not "once-in-a-while," I appreciate the condescension though)- and all you're doing is moving the line. First women can't hope to win at all, now women can't hope to win...every match? Who the hell wins every match? I'm no paragon of athleticism, I am just part of a group that has no classification based on bodies - and guess what? The big and the male have no greater chance of coming out on top. That is my point.

Your assertion that "women shouldn't have to compete against men" assumes that all women are significantly different physically from all men. This is false. This is false on multiple levels of the issue. That is my point.

Not that you've any interest in my point. You create a sweeping assertion based on gender myths, I present you with an example that does not fit, explain why that works, and somehow I am the one that making shit up out of whole cloth.

You're right, I'm wrong. I never knew how incorrect my life experience was until I heard your diamond-hard reason and logic. Thanks for the classic man'splanation, dude.

[BlueJazz]

50. Boy....You're really pissed at me. Perhaps I'm just not seeing your point of view.

I'll try to work on that...

[riderinthestorm]

54. Please do work on that. The women of DU, and the world, and even perhaps in your family

would be grateful.

Peace.

[BlueJazz]

56. A lot of Women don't play sports or even care for sports.

[alphafemale]

53. "have to?"

She came. She saw. She kicked ass.


The wrestling mat is where girls and guys can have about equal strength.

bring those pelvic muscles into play. HELLyah.

[JoePhilly]

10. Good for her. But I expected this to be a Sarah Palin story. nt.

[KansasVoter]

22. LOL....good one!

[fishwax]

18. she apparently went on to wrestle on the men's team in college at Oklahoma City University

http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/020509/spo_285468801.shtml

:kick:

[KansasVoter]

23. Nice!

[Dappleganger]

24. Girls can wrestle, they should have the opportunity to

choose a boys or girls team. Opportunity being the operative word here.

I played 3 seasons of sports--volleyball, basketball and FP softball--on high school teams as well as intra-murals, so guys and girls playing together competitively is no big deal to me. Over the course of the years there were always those very special talents who certainly held their own and gave the boys a run for their money, and if they were on that level then I say let them have the opportunity to play. Nobody should ever be held back because of chromosome makeup.

[riderinthestorm]

25. You rock! nt

[NeoGreen]

27. Thanks for the post...My daughter wrestles @96/98 for her HS...

... team and loves it.

She has had very little to no push back from members of the team, and has great support from her coaches.

Thanks for the link!

[KansasVoter]

34. Congrats to your daughter! I am proud of her!!!

[justiceischeap]

28. When I was a youngster I took Judo which is kinda sorta like wrestling but not really

The point I'm trying to make is even though is the tournaments I participated in, there were always co-ed sparring matches in practice. And when you reach a certain age in Judo, there can be a lot of wrestling type moves on the mat that lead to choke holds.

The only times I ever got hurt by male participants is when I was thrown into a wall (we were sparring too close to the wall and he didn't pay attention) and the second is when they guy I was sparring, again wasn't paying attention, came down on my throat with his knee.

One of the big differences between Judo and wrestling (among the many others) is that during our sparring and tournaments, there is no weight category, just age (for the tourneys). So, a 12 yr old 80 lb girl could compete against a 140 lb adult male and still have a shot at winning because it's all about leverage (which is the case in some of the moves in wrestling too).

I agree with some of the other posters that the claims of injury is often a way to keep women and young girls out of male dominated sports. I think there is a line of thinking by many that girls/women can't possibly compete the same as boys/men or that the male gender will have to somehow curb what goes on so as not to offend the "female sensibilities." I was very athletic as a young kid and young adult (as opposed to my being a slug now) and I ran into a lot of the same arguments/attitudes. I was a damn good baseball player but when I turned a certain age, I could no longer play baseball because I didn't have dangly bits between my legs even though the coaches said it was a damn shame they couldn't have me on their teams. That sucked royally. It's antiquated attitudes all in the name of "protecting" the female gender.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[jtrockville]

33. Almost anyone can wrestle.

When my son wrestled in high school, we saw blind, deaf, and physically deformed people compete. Most years, our team had a female.

How many other sports can say that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. So I guess women's teams are unnecessary. n/t

[riderinthestorm]

39. Your OP about teams and this OP are about girls. Not women. There's a difference.

But you already knew that didn't you? Even as you disingenuously try to conflate different things.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Okay. Girls teams are unnecessary then?

The question is the same regardless.

What's the reason for having girls teams if they do just fine on boys teams?

[riderinthestorm]

49. More teams means more people get to compete so I'm all for anything that gets more kids involved

Your poll was very narrow and didn't take into account all the different variables. Some places don't have enough girls to have their own team in which case they should be able to play with the boys, without prejudice or having the boys complain or not participate because of that.

The girl wrestler in IA, the thread that started all this, did not have a girls team to be on. So then it's important she gets her opportunity.

And I don't think it's the same question at all. Little League is very different for boys and girls of virtually the same size and capability but there aren't too many women who could compete with adult men in the Major League. Once you pass puberty, then the size/weight ratio should be factored in for those sports where it matters or is an issue (although as several women have pointed out, that's not always necessary and I'd defer to their greater experience.) The wrestlers are paired by weight which means they are virtually the same size so they are comparable opponents.

I reiterate, your poll was too narrow and doesn't factor in enough variables so it's impossible to answer categorically. Each town, each sporting event, each area has it's own needs. I believe we can and should be flexible enough to allow everyone to play sports as they can.

An anecdote from my own sporting experience: in my sport we have myriad participants who are physically challenged. During the year, they compete against able bodied competitors because there aren't enough para classes to enable them to have their own "league" if you will. None of them object - it just is what it is. They usually beat a fair number of able bodied riders and that's fine. When it comes to the Olympics or other nationally ranked events however, there are enough participants for them to have their own classes and compete against each other.

Flexibility Jeff. That ensures everyone gets to play.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. Like 92% of DU'ers, I think that girls teams are a good idea.

But logical consistency also makes me a "sexist fool" because I believe that the purposes of girls teams are are pertinent if we're talking about one girl or thirty.

If a system by which girls compete only with girls is prudent for 30 then why not for one? It's difficult to have it both ways. At a bare minimum, there's room for people to disagree.

[riderinthestorm]

58. Because a one girl team, means that one girl has no one to compete against, train with,

or work on her skills. Not to mention competing against... who? Not very many schools have enough girls to make a team and I'd venture to guess that within her school's competition area, she may not have any other girl competitor.

You are taking your "logical consistency" and making yourself look like a sexist fool, yes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. You're missing the point. What's the purpose of girls teams?

Unless I miss my bet, you'll say "to give girls an opportunity to play". But that response inherently presumes that playing on a co-ed team is impossible.

If girls (in general) can compete with boys there's no good reason to have a girls league. If they can't, then it is both a good reason for creating girls league as well as precluding them from competing in the boys league.

If the argument is put forward that an individual girl capable of competing at that level should be allowed on the boys team, then why not allow a boy who can't compete at that level on the girls team? Is his safety and/or self esteem less important?

[riderinthestorm]

61. You are missing my point. More teams means more people get to play.

And for children, that's a good thing. The purpose of a girls team is because there's enough people to populate TWO teams: a boy team and a girl team. They are coed when there aren't enough players of one sex or the other to form a gender separate team.

Whether they are coed or have the luxury of having enough players to have segregated teams probably depends a lot on how many resources a school or league has.

Many schools now have one or two boy flag team members on the SCHOOL'S team because there aren't enough boys to create their own boys flag team. So it becomes the schools team rather than a girl or boy team because there aren't enough members to form their own segregated team. Single or perhaps 2 boys have certainly been included on "girls teams" for probably at least as long as single girls have been included on boys teams like wrestling.

And I've already spelled it out for you but I will reiterate it once more to make sure you understand: if there are enough girls or boys to make up their own separate teams - fine. It makes for MORE competitors and that's a good thing. If there aren't enough to make up separate teams then they should be, and are, competing with each other. And that's fine too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. I went to a large junior high school.

There were enough boys who wanted to play basketball that there was a varsity squad, a JV squad, "B" and "C" teams.

There isn't a cap on the number of teams a school can sponsor. There are lots more letters in the alphabet.

However, there is an inherent fundamental assumption behind the establishment of sex-segregated teams that doesn't go away just because there's only one girl who wants to play the sport.

If boys and girls are the same, then sponsor as many co-ed teams as turnout justifies - and let them play for the squad most appropriate to their skill levels.

[WinkyDink]

41. My point was never "ability" or "equality"; I just think it's.....weird.

Off-putting.

[Zax2me]

51. She sure did

And was quite humble about it if I recall.
However, there is a simple solution here.
Facilitate girls wrestling.
Just like, I don't know, the way they have girls basketball, girls track.
What's one state champ out of tens of thousands awarded over the years when there should be equal champs of male and female EVERY year.
In EVERY state.

[riderinthestorm]

55. You rock!

I wish there were that many girls who would overcome gender stereotypes but unfortunately I believe it's going to be a while before we see that kind of equality.

For now though, we have girls alongside boys. And that's okay imho

[upi402]

59. They almost cut wrestling in our local school

There are 2 girls on the team.

Tax the rich, campaign funding reform, media reform -then it would be no problem. But we need to take our party back before any of that will even get talked about. Lots of work to do.