Group of doctors here signing notes for absent teachers- this is what solidarity looks like

[PeaceNikki]

[somone]

1. That is so cool!

Outstanding.

[RufusTFirefly]

200. Bullshit Alert! Crooks and Liars Busts the "Doctors Writing Excuses" Story

Cross-linking


Bullshit Alert! Crooks and Liars Busts the "Doctors Writing Excuses" Story

Wisconsin Protesters Breitbarted Over Bogus Teachers' Excuses

[PeaceNikki]

207. Oh look!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Starry Messenger]

2. k&r

Beautiful!

[Motown_Johnny]

3. .

Please excuse _____ ______ from school today, he/she has a severe case of Walker Syndrome.

[Lifelong Protester]

4. I was HOPING that would happen!!

great picture and thanks!

[Iris]

10. wow! I'm glad to hear that!

I'm so cynical and jaded at this point, it would never have occurred to me to hope for this!

This week has been really eye-opening. And inspiring.

[PeaceNikki]

12. WI is am amazing place filled with awesome people.

And I am bursting with cheesy pride that the world is seeing what I have been lucky to know my whole life.

[PatrynXX]

96. and really great on workers comp

Iowa? no such thing....... or at least it's not a requirement

[YvonneCa]

44. It is a great picture. WOW! n/t

[whathehell]

5. Uber Cool! n/t

[WillowTree]

6. Solidarity looks like two professionals getting together to perpetrate a lie? Who knew?

[PeaceNikki]

7. You mean the lie that there's a deficit shortfall that will be corrected by busting unions....

right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Oh that lie is probably ok.

[Lyric]

8. Yes, because morality is absolute and there's NEVER justification for a lie.

The world is black and white, dammit, BLACK AND WHITE!

[PeaceNikki]

16. On DU, even.

Lovely, huh? The other day I got into it with someone who said our courageous fantastic 14 Senators weren't doing their jobs.

[WillowTree]

17. So now the ends justify the means? Sorry, no, A kiss is just a kiss and a lie is just a lie.

Hint: Anyone who will lie for you, will also lie to you when it suits his/her purpose. It's true. Learned that one the hard way a long time ago.

[emilyg]

18. Correct.

[Joe the Revelator]

21. those who speak in absolutes should prepared to accept the status quo forever

[davsand]

23. Is it a lie to say I am sick to death of assholes trying to take away my freedom?

I really want to know because I am pretty fucking sick of it by now. I'm sick of it on a local and state level, and after that vote in the house yesterday that strips federal funding for women's health care I gotta say I have gone beyond being just sick of these asswipes.

I think it has become a clinical issue for me. Where you fall in all this is your business and that is between you and YOUR doc.



Laura

[PeaceNikki]

29. This ^

[Lifelong Protester]

67. boy, I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm sick to death at having to sit by and watch the destruction of the middle class via the power grab of a governor who will not WORK WITH THE PEOPLE.
I am emotionally compromised.
I'm nearly ready to vomit in my waste can here.
My heart is racing abnormally and my blood pressure is up.
I'm suffering from the delusion that I live under rational leaders.
I'm malnourished by the daily load of crap that infiltrates almost all "news" sources.
I have TOXIC SHOCK SYNDROME.


What else do you need to know about why I might be looking for a doctor's note?
Many, I mean MANY, people are sick over this, and if they haven't barfed on somebody's Guccis yet, they will be.

[Iris]

77. well-said

[tallahasseedem]

110. Exactly.

I wish I could recommend this post!

[davsand]

24. Dupe post. Sorry!

[riderinthestorm]

28. +1. nt

[Lucian]

43. While I agree with this statement

"Anyone who will lie for you, will also lie to you when it suits his/her purpose" I think what the doctor is doing is right. Yeah, it's a lie, but it's for a good cause.

Morality isn't black and white. It's mainly grey.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

78. ouch

I agree. but ouch!

[roguevalley]

72. reminds me when Christine O'Donnell said she would tell the nazis

there were jews hiding in her house if asked because 'a lie is a lie'. Nice. Even on DU, there is sadness. There is in the course of some events the need to protect people. That doctor is fulfilling his oath: Do no harm. Saving them from harm is what he is doing. I guess empathy is too much to expect from some people.

[Iris]

80. good example.

[somone]

97. Christine would have all these liars shot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individuals_and_gr...

[Auntie Bush]

181. I agree

Some people have no empathy...like every Republican and Tea Bagger.

[Riley18]

299. Exactly what I was thinking. There are some things that are

not lies, and they are when you help someone without power stand up to those who seek to suppress freedom. What those doctors are doing is justifiable and moral under the circumstances.

[LiberalFighter]

300. That statement proves that Christine O'Donnell is not a human being.

[RetroLounge]

94. Thanks for your concern

RL

[readmoreoften]

121. How often do politicians lie? I guess you'll never vote again.

[Pithlet]

149. Yeah, well

I wouldn't want anything to do with someone who would let me sink because It's Always Wrong to Lie, No Matter What, Hey, Rules are Rules. To hell with someone like that.

[Caretha]

180. So you can chalk me up

Because I would have lied for any Jew hiding from the Nazis.

I know that wouldn't be "kosher" in your black and white world.

[hatrack]

313. When you relax your sphincters, does it feel pleasant?

Or are you suffused with an out-of-breath, flushed, panicky feeling?

Just curious . . . .

[roguevalley]

71. there is good everywhere. remember that when you are low. This is a

miracle of the heart.

[H2O Man]

209. speaking of which .....

we have had some strange examples of concrete thinking on DU lately

[Ernest Partridge]

286. Never say "never".

As you are innocently walking down the street, you see a crime-fighting DA running for his life, who then ducks into an alley and hides behind a dumster. Soon thereafter, a Mafia hit-man, gun in hand, walks up to you and asks, "have you seen the DA recently, and if so, where is he?"

Tell the truth, and you will be an accessory to a murder.

What is your "justification" for telling the truth to the hit man?

No, dammit, morality is NOT simply "black and white." There are circumstances in which someone (e.g. a killer) is simply not entitled to the truth.

See my "In Defense of Relativism," http://www.crisispapers.org/essays-p/relativism.htm

Ernest Partridge
The Online Gadfly

[Lyric]

290. Apparently the Online Gadfly doesn't understand sarcasm.

Maybe I should have used this:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[somone]

14. No animals were harmed

Just a white lie. Relax.

How many people are COMPLETELY honest about their 'sick' days?

[Zebedeo]

19. I agree with you

Dishonesty is wrong. What this does is throw into doubt all doctors' notes, even those that are legitimate. Now teachers who really ARE sick and have a legitimate doctor's note will be treated with suspicion, all because some teachers and some doctors are dishonest and unethical.

I presume that the medical board of Wisconsin would be interested to know about this activity.

[PeaceNikki]

20. How do you know it's dishonest if you don't know what the note says?

[Zebedeo]

22. What could the note say

that would be honest and still serve the purpose of providing an excuse for not being at work? It is obvious that the doctor is giving out fake "doctor's notes" confirming that these protestors are "sick" and therefore justified in being away from work. That is not honest. If they were too sick to be at work, they would not be out in the cold protesting.

Look, I understand civil disobedience. But civil disobedience means being honest and open and accepting the consequences of your actions. If the teachers and other public employees want to go on strike, they should go on strike. If they want to defy the requirement that they be at their jobs, they should openly defy that requirement. They should not resort to dishonesty, which sets a TERRIBLE example for their students. And the doctors that are participating in this dishonesty are committing a serious ethical transgression. They are making it so that doctor's notes cannot be trusted to be genuine anymore.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zebedeo]

31. Do these books

say that the ends justify the means? Got it. Don't agree with it.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[customerserviceguy]

40. I don't seem to recall

Martin Luther King, Jr. using any "get out of jail free cards".

Your point is well made.

[roguevalley]

74. yeah they do. read about the righteous gentiles and the nazis. You

really are missing the whole point. There are people who will be beaten and go to jail so that you can reap the benefits of their courage and conviction. How sad that is that you can't even get it. Oh go ahead. Call me a bad
person but if I was a doctor I would do the same thing. Call me criminal but I think when I meet God some day he and I will be good about it.

[ThomCat]

92. Do you take advantage of the gains other people

earn for you regardless of the means that were involved? Or do you abstain from gains unless you know for a fact that they were gained through absolutely ideal, ethical means? I'd be interested to hear how well you put your money where your mouth is.

[sufrommich]

89. Most striking labor unions didn't get paid to strike and accepted

that as the sacrifice that needs to be made.

[ThomCat]

93. Accepted? Have you Ever been an organizer?

Of any kind of organization?

Organizers almost always have to scrounge for resources, and so do their people. Any offered resource would be gratefully accepted, and would not have been turned away.

Organizers find ways to make due with whatever they are offered, because that's usually all that they've got.

So if these doctors offer notes to help by writing notes, that's an offer of service, and on offer of that saves members money. There is no way this side of Hell that would be turned away by any competent organizer.

If you think unions "accepted" strikes as some kind of worthy poverty to earn the rewards that came from the strikes you're mythologizing history.

[sufrommich]

98. I've been in 2 sick outs in my 33 years in a union job. Both

times the vast majority of us took it with no pay,we all knew we weren't going to get paid for those days,the point of both sick outs was to settle the contract. Are you trying to imply that the union organizers solicit doctors to write sick notes? I have never,ever seen that happen. I'm not trying to "mythologize" strikes at all,I'm saying union members making labor actions know the penalties and do it anyway.

[roguevalley]

266. obviously you never were on strike and it sounds like you were

never union but thanks for telling us all about it.

RV, Teamsters, SEIU, AFT, NEA, AFSCME
Union local president, vice president, secretary, state secretary, rights chairman and officer

[sufrommich]

267. I spent 10 years in AFSCME and 23 years in theMEA.

What did I say that was not true?

[roguevalley]

276. so you were in a union. Millions of people are in unions. They pay

their dues, never attend a meeting, never serve in a position. Big whoop. You have made your stand clear.

[sufrommich]

277. I was on the executive board of my local. What have I said that

is untrue?

[PeaceNikki]

30. I don't know what the notes say and neither do you.

[ChazII]

105. Here is what the notes say:

http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/fake-doctors-notes-... /


The notes read

Feb 19, 2011

Patient’s name______

Date of birth ____/_____/_____

To Whom it May Concern:

This is confirm I have seen and evaluated the above named patient.

Please excuse from work/school due to a medical condition from

____/____/____ through

Please contact me at [e-mail] if additional information is needed. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Physician Signature:

Physician Name

WI license number

Based on an examination of the signature and medical license number provided, one of the men handing out these notes was purporting to be James H Shropshire MD, a Clinical Associate Professor at the University Wisconsin Madison.

At this time, MacIver News Service is attempting to contact Dr. Shropshire to see if indeed he was the one handing out the notes on the Capitol Square.




I do not know how reliable this site is.

[somone]

113. MacIver Institute is a RW think tank

with close ties to the GOP
http://www.milwaukeenewsbuzz.com/?p=249020

[ChazII]

140. Thank you, Someone.

If I had taken the time to really research, I would not have posted the note.

[PeaceNikki]

135. More on that group of scumbags with criminal ties

http://bloggingblue.com/2009/03/09/scott-jensens-ties-t... /

http://eye-on-wisconsin.blogspot.com/2009/03/introducin...

Don't trust ANYthing they publish!

[uppityperson]

179. Legally, that information is all that they can give. Even if this is from a RW site.

Privacy regs prohibit docs from writing diagnosis on notes. They can say the person is under my care, but not for what. It can say is released to go back to work/school, but not what they were seen for.

[Missy Vixen]

41. That's a pretty broad brush

>And the doctors that are participating in this dishonesty are committing a serious ethical transgression. They are making it so that doctor's notes cannot be trusted to be genuine anymore.<

Do you feel the same way about doctors that will change a diagnosis code number so their patient's treatment will be paid for by their medical insurance, too?

[WillowTree]

46. I can't tell which way you're going on this.

Are you saying that you think insurance fraud is OK? Because I'll guarantee you that when a doctor gets caught doing that, losing their license is usually not their most serious problem.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillowTree]

56. Where did I say ANYTHING about wanting unions busted?

I simply have a problem with willful dishonesty. That's what I expect from the opposition, not from my side.

[LanternWaste]

130. And you know that none of these teachers have colds, fe

And you know that none of these teachers have colds, fevers, runny noses, etc. in cold weather precisely how?

Maybe not *willful* dishonesty on your part.

[xmas74]

216. How about stress?

Last I checked stress still had to be accepted as a medical excuse, if a physician diagnosed it as such.

[TBF]

146. I'd love to hear how you define your "side". Willful dishonesty

is Scott Walker emptying out the treasure chest to his friends and then claiming he needs to cut unions so he doesn't have to pay honest workers. You want to talk about lying let's talk about Walker and his methods.

[uppityperson]

240. Are they billing insurance? I didn't see any evidence of that. Hence, not insurance fraud.

[Zebedeo]

91. Yes

>Do you feel the same way about doctors that will change a diagnosis code number so their patient's treatment will be paid for by their medical insurance, too?<

Yes, I do. Such practices are unethical and fraudulent. It is insurance fraud and is a
crime.

[unapatriciated]

139. Do you approve of Insurance Companies changing....

codes so that they no longer include what used to be covered under that code. They do it all the time and on purpose. My daughter is a medical biller and goes through this daily. The Insurance Industry has found a knew way to deny or delay health care, change the code or what it covers.
There used to be universal billing codes, now each Insurance Company has there own (that seem to change when it benefits them) and it's done to delay payment or treatment.

[Zebedeo]

141. I believe that insurance companies and all other parties to

contracts should abide by the contracts and fulfill their obligations thereunder. I further believe that they should act with honesty and forthright good faith toward the parties with whom they contract. I believe that medical diagnoses are coded with ICD-9 codes and medical billing with CPT codes. I do not believe that the particular code number used should make any difference, as long as the responsibilities of the insurer under the contract of insurance are fulfilled.

[roguevalley]

268. ah, you are from The Perfect World. Welcome to where the rest of

us live here in The Real World. Enjoy your stay.

[uppityperson]

243. Except these docs aren't billing insurance so no ins fraud.

[Zebedeo]

244. wrong

>Do you feel the same way about doctors that will change a diagnosis code number so their patient's treatment will be paid for by their medical insurance, too?<

Yes, I do. Such practices are unethical and fraudulent. It is insurance fraud and is a
crime.

[uppityperson]

246. I meant the docs at this protest. For docs changing billing in office to get paid, etc

there are ways that are perfectly legal. You can bill for a short office visit, then add extra codes. Or you can leave off codes. I do medical billing and yes, there is a lot of fraud, but there are ways of getting paid for what you do by changing a code number or adding different one. It is common to mis-code and have to change them. Rather like insurance companies enter the data wrong and deny payment for an incorrect code, or number of units, or some other such number thing.

For a doc to enter something that is NOT done, that is fraud and a crime.

For these docs at this protest, they aren't billing ins so it isn't ins fraud.

[Zebedeo]

247. I said

that it would be insurance fraud and a crime for a doctor to "change a diagnosis code number so their patient's treatment will be paid for by their medical insurance." That was the post I made with which you took issue. I am correct.

[Rabrrrrrr]

117. It's easy - "So and so was under my care on (date)" (and HPPA requires no reason)

[DissedByBush]

171. I found this one

Her license # is there, and I looked it up.

She is a real doctor and she is there at the protests.

She is handing out generic form letters, same for everyone.

Who I really feel sorry for is any teacher who was ACTUALLY SICK during the protests.

Imagine trying to prove you didn't get one of these fraudulent sick slips to avoid termination.

[roguevalley]

270. oh please. its harder to do terminate a teacher than it is to get a

Republican to tell the truth. Been there, done that. Your concern is noted.

[Auntie Bush]

188. I wish I could take away your valentine.

That Dr. is doing her share of helping the protesters. Can't criticize her for that.

[Zebedeo]

241. I can criticize her for that

and I have done so. The ends do not justify dishonest means. "Helping the protestors" is not a catch-all justification for dishonest or otherwise morally repugnant actions. As an example, imagine if someone were to break into one of the clothing boutiques in Madison and steal all their coats and give them to the protestors. After all, it is cold outside, and this will help the protestors weather the cold. Would that be justified, in your view?

[roguevalley]

271. oh please.

if someome told me that I would lose ten percent of my income overnight I would be sick. Go take your blather elsewhere. Its clear you don't care for this. You made your position clear. you are just embarrassing yourself now.

[sabrina 1]

201. It could say that the person is emotionally overwrought because

of cruel threats against their jobs and way of life by lying politicians? I think that should do it. I know I am emotionally overwrought about it all and would be extremely ineffective in the classroom right now and a doctor's note saying that would not be a lie.

I also would have lied to the Nazis.

[GreenEyedLefty]

258. Most school employee union contracts forbid strikes.

If they strike, they lose their jobs.

And, if they call out for more than 10 consecutive days they have to produce a doctor's note, or lose their jobs.

This is an end-around so they can keep their jobs while at the same time doing the right thing for ALL working people, not just themselves.

This is perfectly all right with me.

[IamK]

259. and the kids get an extra week of xbox... Its a win win

I alwayz thinked the hole going to skool thing was a little over blown....

[Zebedeo]

278. Exactly

Why should anyone care whether the kids are getting educated?

[WillowTree]

32. Uh, yeah. I'm sure the notes say...

...."This employee's not really sick but please excuse him anyway because I'm in 'solidarity' with him."

Look, either you're honest or you're not. Some things really are black and white.

And by the way, I can think of ways that this could come back to bite some teachers in the shorts. Will we still be cheering the righteousness of the lies then?

[LanternWaste]

114. You can of course provide for a us a list of human beings who are honest

"Look, either you're honest or you're not. Some things really are black and white...


You can of course provide for a us a list of human beings who are honest (i.e, have never lied in their lives?)

[dbmk]

138. So..

..when the Nazis come asking if you are hiding any Jews, you go: "Yep, they are in the cellar!".
(No comparison intended even if applicable)

Or can we agree that lying being wrong is not an absolute, but is a sliding scale?

Then you are free to argue all you want where that action is on your scale - and disagree with people about where it is on theirs.

But you should stop digging yourself into that "lying is _always_ wrong" hole while you can still get out.

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

82. Nor do we know the people are not sick. I saw someone tweet that she was taking 2 Tylenol for her

flu and heading out anyway.

[Obamanaut]

95. And if the notes do not verify an imagined illness justifying staying out

of work for the day, why would there be a thread on this?

[roguevalley]

73. go ahead and tell them. Sometimes for the greater good you have to

lie. Google Righteous gentile.

[Caretha]

182. Authoritarianism much?

What is wrong with you is you can't tell the difference between right and wrong.

[Zebedeo]

245. When you start a sentence with

"What is wrong with you is . . ." you are not interested in serious debate. You are name-calling.

[Angry Dragon]

39. Sorry, it is not a lie

Frist was able to diagnose people via videos and upheld by the Congress
At least these doctors are actually seeing their patients

[somone]

45. Excellent point

[Manifestor_of_Light]

70. Frist diagnosed Terry Schiavo's brain problems via videotape. And he's a heart surgeon.

And we have doctors in Congress talking about non-existent medical procedures that the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists state do not exist: partial birth abortion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Well keep on telling only the truth while the right wing lies as easily as they breathe

Get back to us and let us know how well that works for ya.

[WillowTree]

50. So they're the people you want to emulate..............OK, Got it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Actually, they are the people who won the most recent election

But keep on playing nice. And watch your email for those much deserved brownie points.

[WillowTree]

59. I understand. We're right back to the ends justifying the means. Whatever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Do you want to win elections or not?

[WillowTree]

62. Not if I have to sell my soul to do it, Dr. Faustus. I'm just funny that way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Good for you.

I've been ready to fight back for years. Short of violence, there isn't much I don't support to defeat the right wing cancer in this country.

[redwitch]

66. They're not selling their souls.

They are standing up for justice for workers. Solidarity.

[Caretha]

183. It's hard to talk to someone who has no soul

All I can say is that it sucks to be them.

[redwitch]

230. They're orcs.

I think.

[LanternWaste]

131. I imagine many people hold others to an ethical and moral bar

I imagine many people hold others to an ethical and moral bar which they themselves fail to meet. Lots of people are funny that way...

[Angry Dragon]

75. It may just depend on what one considers to be sick

Perhaps they are just SICK and tired of being
the scapegoat for the the radical right republican lies
in my world that is being sick - unable to work due to sickness

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roguevalley]

275. sad, sad, sad. no wonder this country sucks. you enjoy your chains.

[Horse with no Name]

51. Blue flu. Been around forever. Only cure is fairness and equality by the employers to the employees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action
A "sickout", or (especially by uniformed police officers) "blue flu", is a type of strike action in which the strikers call in sick. This is used in cases where laws prohibit certain employees from declaring a strike. Police, firefighters, and air traffic controllers are among the groups commonly barred from striking: usually by state and federal laws meant to ensure the safety and/or security of the general public. So are teachers in some U.S. states (see below). Workers have sometimes circumvented these restrictions by falsely claiming inability to work due to illness.

[LWolf]

55. What lie?

Every single teacher in Wisconsin can be excused because of symptoms of stress. Being threatened does that; increases stress. Stress is a killer. Doctors know that.

[riderinthestorm]

60. Yup, stress. Not that I've seen those doctor notes but its a fair bet that's the diagnosis.

And it wouldn't be a lie either.

Win/win for both parties.

[northernlights]

81. sometimes you've got to fight fire with fire....

Politicians lie. Corporations lie. The media lie.

Sadly, that is the only thing they know or understand.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. It is possible

this is the best use of blue flu I have seen in my lifetime.

[JDPriestly]

101. And you have never lied, Willow Tree?

If you say you have never lied, then you are certainly a liar.

I have told people they look wonderful when they look ill. I have told a friend in need of a boost that she looked wonderful in her dress although I wasn't so sure. These are small lies.

If you have a child, you have probably written a note to excuse your child's absence from school when you know full well the child is just depressed or sad or has been bullied and needs to stay at home for a reason that is good to you but probably not to the school authorities. This is that kind of lie. The teacher who goes to school under these circumstances is the dishonest person just trying to kiss up . . . .

And I am known as a very, very honest person. But sometimes there are more important things than small lies. The "lies" this doctor is making are known to all parties for what they are -- excuses for justified absences.

[Caretha]

185. According to psychologist

Everyone lies at least 3 times in a normal conversation. Some people just are in denial and think they have no asshole.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rabrrrrrr]

119. It goddamn well does. Solidarity means saying that no, you have no Jews hiding in your house.

It means saying that no, you have political activists in sanctuary in your church.

It means saying that no, these aren't the droids you're looking for. Or that no, you don't have the stolen codes.

Don't be intentionally obtuse about this.

[AtheistCrusader]

237. No, Solidarity means nobody ever hears from that Nazi patrol ever again.

[Rabrrrrrr]

295. And how do you think that happens? "Here, Mr. Brownshirt, have the Jews I'm hiding"?

Fucking hell.

[AtheistCrusader]

301. I think you misunderstood me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

303. Well, then why not clarify, please?

Not that difficult a thing to do.

[AtheistCrusader]

310. You kill the nazis.

Yeah, you'll probably get killed eventually too, but pretty soon, they run out of nazis if everyone does it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

312. lol - an excellent idea!

I like it!

I hate nazis.

[readmoreoften]

120. They'd probably conspire to lie about hiding Jews under Hitler as well.

The immoral fucks.

[dddem]

127. What lie?

What's happening to these public servants is sickening.

[LAGC]

128. Your concern is duly noted. (n/t)

[Hosnon]

129. Oh grow up. Life is not that simplistic. nt.

[Canuckistanian]

134. A small transgression in protest of a MUCH LARGER one is no sin

Indeed, it's the ONLY way social change made any progress in America.

Would you also criticize Rosa Parks for breaking rules?

[rury]

159. It's NOT a lie...

...they're SICK...SICK OF INJUSTICE!!

[guruoo]

191. So, you've read the notes? nt

[donheld]

215. Thank you for telling us whose side you're on.

[Hissyspit]

256. Cats and Dogs! Living Together!

[kurtzapril4]

298. If I had some pearls, I'd clutch them.

Oh, the lies and the lying liars who tell them!

[Iris]

9. I LOVE it!

thanks for posting this!

[Bozita]

11. Solidarity!

[defendandprotect]

26. k/r

[Greybnk48]

27. This is wonderful! n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
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[tallahasseedem]

111. Now is not the time GrovelBot!

LOL!

[Dappleganger]

34. +1000000

[ellie]

35. I am loving the responses

by people who are aghast at this! AGHAST! Think of the future of doctor note writing! No one will believe the doctors anymore!

Bwahahahahahaha!

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Well some people are revolted at the sight

of a popular uprising.

[H2O Man]

224. Seriously!

I haven't laughed this hard in years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. ROFLMAO!!!

[somone]

52. Doctors rely on what patients tell them

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Sadly wiht my ashma and the cold

cough wheeze, wheeze could be for very real.

Just don't take the albuterol immediately... and do it after seeing doc for a note.

[Poboy]

69. I was lmao as well. How disingenuous. After they finish pearl clutching

They will make their way back over to their home board and express their phony outrage.

[Hissyspit]

145. But, but...

Cats and dogs! Living together!

[ellie]

153. It's totally going to

go on their permanent record!

[H2O Man]

231. But what of

the kittens ! Will NO ONE stand up for the kittens?

[Hissyspit]

252. I will stand up for the kittens!

[H2O Man]

255. Beauty!

Yet, one ponders: are you a vet that wonders, simply standing for kittens? Writing notes to save eight or even nine lives?

[AzDar]

38. Love this.

[Bobbie Jo]

42. Recommended.

[Viking12]

47. So it's not just bunch of union thugs? but Fox news told me....

[emmadoggy]

103. Love your Solidarity graphic!! nt

[CBHagman]

63. Shrieking with laughter here.

I had no idea.

[B2G]

65. Seems their names are leaking out

Can they get in trouble for this?

[underpants]

68. Oh that is sooooo cool

[sufrommich]

76. Actually,I'm not sure publishing this is going to help at all.

I guarantee the teabaggers will glom on this and use it to their advantage. It makes it look like they're more concerned about getting paid for their days of protest.

[Iris]

83. So what? They glom on to everything anyone does that they don't like.

This makes some of us happy DESPITE what the Teabaggers have to say about it.

[sufrommich]

88. It won't just be teabaggers who will be put off by something like this.

There's a cost to labor protests,you don't get paid for it and that is accepted by union workers who go on strike.It will be the teabaggers who use it as propaganda bit I guarantee you it will outrage a lot of people. It makes the union people look like they're not willing to sacrifice for their cause.I wouldn't be surprised if those doctors passing out excused with pay slips aren't trolls.

[Iris]

90. I don't care. I'm sick of acting like teabaggers and anyone who gets sucked into their drivel

are reasonable people.

[robdogbucky]

99. Thanks for your concern

You and Fuxx Snooze are both concerned about this as a moral outrage.

Feel better about it now? You and Fuxx Snooze on the same morality page all of a sudden.

My oh, my, what has become of this place?



The Revolution will not be televised but it will be on Twitter.

[sufrommich]

100. Oh bullshit. Here's the golden rule of protesting:

Do not hand them their talking points on a golden platter.

[robdogbucky]

106. Mkay, credentials please!

Mine, as well as I could remember them:


Madison protest to end the War in VietNam, 1967

Madison protest to stop using Napalm and to get Dow Chemical recruiters off of campus, 1967

Chicago protest at Grant Park during Dem National Convention, 1968

San Francisco protest to stop police brutality against protestors 2 days earlier at Dem Convention in Chicago, 1968

Berkeley protest to tactics by Alameda County Sheriff Frank Madigan used during Peoples' Park protests and murder of James Rector, 1969

Berkeley protest to stop illegal invasion and bombing of Cambodia by Kissinger/Nixon, 1970

Berkeley/San Francisco protest to killings of students by National Guard at Kent State, 1970

Madison protest to create an Afro-American Studies Program, 1969

San Francisco protest to invasion/occupation of Iraq, 2003

San Francisco protest to China hosting Olympic Games while persecuting the indigenous population of Tibet, 2008




Fuck your talking points

Take action

Perception is everything

[sufrommich]

108. So you've never participated as a state union worker at

the local level,I have. I spent 33 years working for a school system,we negotiated a new contract every 3 years.Many times we've had to protest with picket signs at the board office and make our positions known through local media.There is a huge difference between political rallies and union rallies and especially state worker rallies. The whole point of union action at the state and local level is to garner the support and sympathy of the tax payers who pay our wages. You better believe the management is trying to do the same thing. Our main purpose out there was to prove to the taxpayers that their money is well spent on us as workers and that we were willing to play fair for fair compensation.As state workers we always recognized that perception is indeed everything.It's ironic that you would end your post saying the exact same thing I said.

[robdogbucky]

148. Well, no sufrommich, I never participated as a state union worker at the local level

But many of my direct family did, as union rank and file and as officials.

"You better believe the management is trying to do the same thing."

This I know from my own union memberships and activities, although Iron Workers in Wisconsin, SheetMetalWorkers in California and Food & Beverage union in a "right to work," state, Arizona. NOT specifically AFSCME, like my Mom, Uncles and cousins.

Here is a little story that addresses the phrase from your post that I extracted. In this regard, one of my drunkles was the head of whichever local that represented the city workers that negotiated their CBA with the City of Madison. His specific area was Streets and Parks at the time, and I have no idea what any of that might be called now. Nor do I recall any more of the specifics, other than Soglin was mayor for much of it. I do not know the amount of contract issues they had disagreements on or if their disputes centered always on wages.

Now the City would always seem to play hardball with my uncle and not give him anything all year long at the bargaining table. Then the first blizzard would come and when my uncle's snowplows and sanders and back then, the salt trucks also, did not move, a crisis would ensue. Emergency negotiations would suddenly happened, all players would be interviewed by media, my uncle always stuck to his guns, regardless of what the City tried in way of brinksmanship, and not agree to get those vehicles out into the blizzard until his members had the fair and honest contract they deserved. I can remember winter nights over the years when we would go to bed and wonder if my uncle had succeeded. I think there may be others here from Madtown that could fill in the blanks. I know he hated Soglin because Soglin would attempt to bum cigarettes from my uncle's pack on the table without asking. He thought Soglin was a punk. You didn't cross my uncle on things like that.

Every time he succeeded in getting a good contract for his members.

That is how he managed things and he knew that until the City had its back against the wall, he would not get what his members wanted. He never worried about what the politicians OR THE MEDIA said about him or what they thought of his tactic of not moving the machines until a contract was in place. He knew the politicians had to please many parties and came up for re-election periodically. He only had to answer to his rank and file.

Now you know who you are talking to. My student demonstration days extended well-past my student days BTW and the issues I chose to demonstrate in the street over touched me personally and I would hope other citizens in a responsible democracy would exercise their rights more forcefully and not worry about what people think of them so much.

Keep your eyes on the prize, hold on, hold on.


Carry on, regardless

rdb

[sufrommich]

260. Your "drunkle" sounds like he's telling you some tall tales.

I've been on 3 negotiating teams and it's alot more complicated then some lone guy waiting for a snowstorm and then strong arming for a contract. Teams are set up months before negotiations start with specific groups fact finding on the administration budgets,similar contracts from surrounding districts and plans for media usage which are worked out before we even get to the table.Negotiating teams are elected at union meetings and given information from our fact finders so they go into negotiation with a very realistic outlook on what we can reasonably assume from management and well thought out arguments based on fact. "Emergency negotiations" don't "suddenly happen" nor are they reliant on one guy twisting arms behind the scenes. Your story is an insult to blue collar workers and does nothing other than spread the meme that we're too stupid to actually negotiate contracts using intelligent negotiating skills and information gathered from our own teams.We don't wait for a crisis to negotiate contracts,we don't have to,we're smarter than that.

[robdogbucky]

264. Well, I don't think were in Madison, were you?

I was. Are you in Madison? Then why don't you ask then-mayor, soon-to-be-mayor again Soglin? I'm not there. Are you there?

See, I'm inviting you to verify this. I would be happy to do it but my uncle died in about 1983. Soglin is still there and if you are as involved as you represent, it should be easy to ask him. Ask him about the cigarettes, eh? That should be easy enough. Ask anyone old enough to remember it, mkay?

I'm sure he remembers. He most likely remembers The Original Speakeasy when he lived on W. Wash when mayor. Of course you could be too young, or not even be from Madison, or never even been in Madison.

You insult the memory of my late uncle and you doubt what I described? Are you even union? Are you here as someone not interested in facts, reality, or just to dampen spirits? Who the fuck do you think you are? Why can't you tell us?

These emergency negotiations happened more than once, in fact it was kind of a running joke within our family in my teenage years.

What would you do if a stranger insulted the memory of your uncle?

Kudos to you and your methods. They would not have survived a blizzard in 1964.

What you apparently don't do is fight very hard for whatever union you are with, if you even are a member of any union.

So if you don't care to verify, then kindly shut your pie hole and speculation about something you know nothing about, especially as it pertains to my uncle.

I would not want you to represent me and that kind of mamby-pamby negotiate first with folks that have no intention of giving anything in return is most likely how unions have been getting de-certified and out of favor over the last 30 or so odd years.

Thanks for nothing. You give unions a bad name, not my late uncle.

So long and don't let the door hit you in the back on the way out.



I'm happy to be corrected if you can prove me wrong.



One world, one people

rdb

[sufrommich]

265. Your post is nonsensical. Am I even union? Did you read

my post? "that kind of mamby-pamby negotiate first ", lol,what? Was your Uncle a member of a union that didn't bother with negotiating fist?

[robdogbucky]

285. You didn't answer, where are you?

No, of course not, my uncle did not avoid negotiations first, but their "negotiations," didn't amount to much until the leverage of a pending storm. That is history now.

So, where are you? What makes you think this didn't happen? You don't sound like other union folks from Madtown that post here.

I noticed you haven't answered any of those questions yet.

Not in Madison? Can't reach Soglin?

Afraid that you will be exposed? If not, why not check it out, that is, if you really are union and if you have ever been in Madison. I notice you are rather moot on those points.

Stop insulting the memory of my uncle.





I am happy to be corrected if anyone can prove me wrong.



The Revolution will not be televised but it will be on Twitter.


rdb

[sufrommich]

294. I'm in Michigan. What does that have to do with anything?

What does it matter if I'm not in Madison? What does that have to do with anything I've said? Union negotiations are pretty standard across the country.

"Afraid that you will be exposed? If not, why not check it out" I have no idea what you think I should be "afraid" of or what you're insisting I check out?

You're talking about something you remember from your uncle back in 1964 as if that is proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove.Then you go off on something that has to do with some guy bumming cigarettes off your uncle,and tell me to check it out.Check out what?

[robdogbucky]

297. Review

You claimed that the portrayal of doctors writing absence excuses was a "bad tactic," right?

You agreed that perception is everything, and was applying that saw to this incident and the image gleaned by media, right?

I gave you a historical example of how my uncle used to do it, that is, gain a fair and equitable contract for his rank and file, right?

You then dissed my uncle and claimed he was bullshitting me, right?

I gave you example of our going to bed at night not knowing if the roads would be passable in the morning, right?

I even spiced my reverie with the anecdote about the cigarettes, as an example of whom my uncle had to deal with, right?

Sorry, but that is what my uncle said and it was said with derision.

Curious as to why you would do such a disrespectful thing, I sought to learn where you actually are, as this is the anonymous internet, right?

First you defame or try to diss my uncle's memory, now you offer that you didn't understand the meaning of the anecdote I inserted as an example of union negotiations in Madison in 1964, right?

I see you are in Michigan and I see where you claim that union negotiations are pretty standard across the country, right?

Fine, you made your esoteric point, but you are not in Madison, you were not there in 1964 and you know nothing about it, aside from your high perch, apparently now admittedly in Michigan where you pontificate to those of us from Madison and present in 1964, right?

You don't know Soglin, and I presume you know no one in Madison, right?

So you claim you don't follow this chain of messages now and can't figure out why I am curious as to your credentials and sincerity and motive, right?

Preach to me, I'll preach to you. My grandparents, my uncle and all of my other aunts, uncles, and my parents, lived through the depression. They were part of the struggle to bring collective bargaining to public employees, which I believe started in Wisconsin. You dare diss the memory of those caring strong people? I still doubt you have anything to do with any union. Michigan or otherwise. If you did, one would think you could call up someone who knew someone in Madison to verify, no?

Okay. I see where you are coming from. No need to communicate any further as I can see you are not sincere in this discussion and prefer that the world thought and spoke as you do, as you and only you know what transpires everywhere all the time, over the millenia. I give you historical fact and all you can do is insult and obscure.

Enjoy Michigan.


Wow, just wow.

[Caretha]

189. So the first really really big

labor protest in the US in a very long time shouldn't protest, because it will give other labor protesters a bad name.

Uh, you need to take a course in critical thinking. It might help you, it might not. Anyone's guess.

[fishwax]

205. sufrommich didn't say they shouldn't protest

"Uh, you need to take a course in critical thinking. It might help you, it might not. Anyone's guess."

That's a rather silly shot, since you seem to have misinterpreted her post.

[sufrommich]

261. Please point out where I said the state workers shouldn't protest. nt

[tekisui]

84. As they should. I think it is great, tebaggers can suck it.

Hopefully, it will just bring more out onto the street.

[RetroLounge]

126. Who gives a fuck about the baggers?

Grow a pair.

RL

[RedCloud]

85. exactly. They are sick of the fecal debris flowing out the governor's mouth.

[Citizen Worker]

86. In America this is what a citizen has to do to participate in democracy. Thank you doctors!

[emmadoggy]

104. Love it! nt

[Name removed]

107. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllyCat]

109. I told a teacher at my kid's school I knew about a dozen who would sign it for her

I knew this would happen. They are completely supporting us here at work.

[PuffedMica]

115. I just love it when big Republican plans get derailed small efforts of individuals

[PuffedMica]

116. K&R

[theaocp]

118. Interesting approach. K&R

Anyone who doesn't see this as part of a moral continuum is being willfully blind. I understand the inner conflict and still believe if you want to make an omelette, you have to break some eggs. The sun will rise again tomorrow.

[MissDeeds]

123. Wow, how beautiful is that?

As a life long educator - from elementary school teacher to grad school professor - that has to be among the most moving things I have ever seen
in my professional life. Just an incredible show of support and solidarity.

Thanks for posting this, PeaceNikki. This photo will stay with me for a long, long time.

Big K&R

[JeffersonChick]

124. k&r - LOVE IT

[FailureToCommunicate]

125. No WONDER doctor's notes are illegible: they've got GLOVES on!

PS LOVE the idea!
LOVE doctors (Just don't like seeing them)

[DeSwiss]

132. K&R!!!

[AsahinaKimi]

133. I have a feeling this will be a long haul

I hope people will be bringing food, water and other necessities.. Just as they did in Egypt.

[demigoddess]

136. Cool!!! Hang in there, PLEASE!

this country needs this.

[Hannah Bell]

137. kr

[Raine]

142. Way COOL

and patriotic!

[uppityperson]

143. k&r for Mental Health sick days

[jillan]

144. Beautiful!

[LoZoccolo]

147. Something that people are forgetting when they pile on critics of these doctors

is that it will ultimately be other doctors - left or right - which come down on these two the hardest, if they are in fact making false diagnoses. Their licensure and professional standing likely prohibits making false diagnoses, if that is what is happening here. To answer the question about absolute ethics: yes, other doctors have an interest in enforcing an "absolute" code of ethics, because they know that if it's shoddily enforced, then the value of their own good standing under it is diluted; this is the kind of thing professional societies do, and they know they neglect it at their own peril and the peril of their profession. It really doesn't matter if anybody on DU thinks this is right or wrong; other doctors will likely censure this in order to protect themselves and the value of their license.

[Pacifist Patriot]

154. Oh I don't know. I highly doubt the notes contain a diagnosis of any sort.

Generally the note simply acknowledges the patient sought medical attention. The doctor is just saying, "yep, saw him/her today" and/or "so and so is cleared to return to work."

I used to manage a large group of people who were treated like children in this regard. Every single note I ever saw was entirely vague. I'm not even sure it would be legal to include a diagnosis on the note for privacy reasons. I've also lost count how many times doctors have asked me if I need a note to return to work. The doctors I know think the notes are a total joke. They really do not like having to see people for trivial reasons just so the person can get an excused absence from work.

Something else should be noted as well. I have no idea what the case is with the teachers' union in Wisconsin, but it is not unusual for a doctor's note to simply provide you with an "excused" absence from work but not result in any pay.

[LoZoccolo]

162. That could be. I just wanted to point out that doctors themselves have an interest in this issue

that goes beyond the politics of the protest (in which I support the public employees staging it).

[Caretha]

193. And I quote

" (in which I support the public employees staging it)." Sure you do

[uppityperson]

177. Exactly. HIPAA and privacy rules prohibit telling anyone the dx unless by written permission of the

patient or by court order.

[uppityperson]

175. Wrong. They can diagnose after talking with someone AND cannot tell what Dx is due to HIPAA

All diagnoses does not need a physical exam or lab work. And they are legally prohibited from writing their diagnoses on the note, due to HIPAA privacy regs. The diagnosis is between the doc and the patient. The not CAN say they are under the care of doctor me, md as of this date. Yes, doctors can and do diagnose people with things based simply on conversations. And no one beyond the doctor, patient and insurance (if billed) has ANY right to know the diagnosis. Isn't HIPAA great?

So long as they don't bill insurance, it isn't fraud either.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pacifist Patriot]

150. Seeing as how I've never been a fan of doctor's notes anyway....

I don't have any problem with this whatsoever. It's my job to wrestle with ethics and morals and I'm having a hard time dredging up any outrage over this.

It bothers me more that grown adults throughout our country in all manner of jobs are asked to bring in a doctor's note to prove they were sick. It's actually pretty easy to figure out who the shirkers are without punishing everyone with these silly tactics. That on top of clogging up doctor's waiting rooms with people who just need a couple days in bed to get over a cold or flu rather than professional medical attention.

Haven't met a doctor yet who didn't at least partially resent having to fill the stupid things out. Small wonder they'll sign off on notes for a good cause...with some relish I shouldn't wonder.

Have at me for condoning bad behavior. I'll just sit here and while you lecture me and sneer condescendingly at the doctors.

[Imagevision]

151. Hey baggers, where's your note?!!!

[DissedByBush]

152. This is what fraud looks like, and probably malpractice

They're giving notes to people who are fine, that's fraud.

If they aren't fine then the doctors aren't conducting a proper exam, not establishing the basics of a doctor-patient relationship, that's probably malpractice.

Think if ONE of these people got a sick slip to go home, and the doctor saw him hanging around at the protest, and he drops dead of an illness he didn't know he had.

An illness a doctor who gave a proper exam before handing out a sick slip would have caught.

LAWSUIT!

It's nice to see solidarity, but not this way.

[Pacifist Patriot]

155. I'm guessing they've thought of that and probably have it covered.

[DissedByBush]

156. How could they possibly have it covered?

They're not conducting an exam before passing out sick slips. Malpractice.

It's only a nudge-nudge-wink-wink ON FILM that the people are sick. Fraud.

There might be something I am missing, but it must be something really big.

[PeaceNikki]

157. Here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116542773.ht...

On Saturday, family physician Lou Sanner, 59, of Madison, said he had given out hundreds of notes. Many of the people he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress, he said.

"What employers have a right to know is if the patient was assessed by a duly licensed physician about time off of work," Sanner said. "Employers don't have a right to know the nature of that conversation or the nature of that illness. So it's as valid as every other work note that I've written for the last 30 years."

[Pacifist Patriot]

161. Help me out here...

Great source by the way. I know from personal experience these notes are about as vague as vague can get.

Are there both real doctors helping out AND bogus doctors as part of a set up. Or is Fox making shit up and claiming there are bogus doctors doing a set up. I'm getting confused with all the information coming in.

[PeaceNikki]

164. I don't think it's a setup - and I don't think it's the scandal the pearl-clutchers are making it

out to be. What malpractice? They aren't diagnosing anything. What fraud? They are saying that they saw the patient. The think tank referenced in the link you provided is a RW criminal organization.

[DissedByBush]

167. To write someone as sick, don't you first have to diagnose?

If they haven't diagnosed, that's fraud.

There are at least two people involved, that's conspiracy to commit fraud.

These are real doctors writing real sick slips to people they have never seen before and didn't make the slightest effort to diagnose.

[Pacifist Patriot]

170. Again, doctor's notes don't usually provide even that much.

Often it's just "saw the person, he/she is now cleared to return to work."

[DissedByBush]

172. It's not about what the note provides

It's about whether a real examination occurred, about a real doctor-patient relationship existed.

[uppityperson]

178. Doc I used to work with hated to go grocery shopping as was generally stopped by a patient

or someone seeking medical advice. Just because they are not in their usual place of business does not mean they do not do exams, even by talking. If a patient talks with a doctor about some sort health, mental health, life issue, the relationship existed.

[DissedByBush]

203. Have you seen the videos? n/t

[uppityperson]

204. I've seen lots of videos. Any in particular? link?

[DissedByBush]

213. Quick search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pDy3cvzDHs

It's quite clear.

Only one doctor actually seemed interested in the health of the person talking.

One seems to have been coached by his lawyer to not get busted (very defensive).

The rest, it's quite obvious. You'd have to be blind not to see what's going on.

[uppityperson]

220. That one "very defensive" is the one following Legally mandated HIPAA and privacy regs

They are PROHIBITED by law from giving any information out about any patient they see. They can, with the patient's consent, sign a note saying they say that person on a given date but are PROHIBITED from saying for what, unless the patient gives signed consent.

This isn't "coached by his lawyer" but simply following federal laws regarding patient privacy.

The notes they sign say they saw a person on a certain date. All following the law.

Do you really want a doctor telling some anonymous person what he/she saw you for? Seriously?

It is the law. Doctors can do exams in their office, or on the street. They sometimes take blood pressures, order blood work, poke and prod. Sometimes they don't. It is legal.

[DissedByBush]

232. The question was obviousy generalized

Are you actually examining people or are you just handing out sick slips to anybody who asks?

He didn't ask for information about a specific patient that would violate HIPAA.

The doctor hid his fraud behind HIPAA.

Now about the others who admitted they were handing out sick slips to anyone who asked?

Remember, according to them being "sick of Scott Walker" was enough to pronounce a person physically sick to not show up.

That one doctor who said there could be mental problems involved, want bets on whether she was a licensed psychologist or just a regular physician who is not qualified to make such determinations?

Take the blinders off. You know what is going on.

[uppityperson]

235. They were handing out slips saying they saw someone.That is the law. You are wrong in many ways here

A patient doesn't have to be sick in order to get a doctor's excuse. They just need to be seen by a doctor. And they get a note saying they were seen by a doctor. The doctor is not obligated to do a physical exam or anything else. The doctor can simply talk to the patient, then write a note saying they were seen. The note doesn't say they were sick. It doesn't say why they were seen.

Doctors MUST not tell anyone who they see or for what, without written approval from a patient.

This is the law.

And yes, "just a regular physician" IS qualified to say they are mental health issues. Good grief, not everyone need to or does go to a "licensed psychologist" or even a Psychiatrist (MD) Did you know that psychologist licensing varies by state and in some ALL you need is this...
"All states require psychologist licensure in order to practice. Requirements vary from state-to-state, but at minimum you'll need to pass a state certification examination, hold a doctorate or master's degree from an accredited institution and have one year of fieldwork."

http://www.allpsychologyschools.com/psychology-careers/...

FAR less education than an MD gets. And in most states psycholgists cannot prescribe medications. So if someone with a mental health condition needs prescribed medicine, they must go to "just a regular physician" or sometimes a Psychiatrist.

You are wrong in so many ways.

[DissedByBush]

248. I guess I misunderstood the word "sick"

As in "sick" days, which need a "sick" slip to back them up.

So the person gets paid for those days when he's "sick".

As in it's fraud when you're not really sick.

"Doctors MUST not tell anyone who they see or for what, without written approval from a patient."

Again, he didn't ask about specific patients. No HIPAA problems there.

[uppityperson]

253. You did misunderstand since you don't need a "sick" slip to back you up. It is easy to get confused

about all this. You need a note from your doctor releasing you to go back, to work. It is easy to confuse this with a "sick" slip. The doctor doesn't certify that you were sick but that you can go back to work.

Like you misunderstand what psychologists do and can't do.

No problems with misunderstandings, it happens to us all at some point.

[DissedByBush]

314. The doctors were excusing people from work

That enables them to use their sick leave and be absent from work without planning to use personal leave.

[PeaceNikki]

212. It is not. They did nothing wrong.

[uppityperson]

173. It depends on what they are writing, diagnosing. And there are HIPAA regs too.

If they say a person is home sick with whatevertheheckitis, many places that goes beyond what they can legally write. They can write "saw this person on a certain date" but not what they saw them for because of HIPAA. What the doc diagnosed is between them and the patient, not the employer.

And docs can diagnose stress with simply talking to someone. So long as they don't bill insurance, it isn't fraud.

[xmas74]

226. Most notes don't say what the diagnosis is for.

I know-every time I need to miss a day of work for a sick child I have to bring in a note. The note only says that I took a family member to the doctor and that they will be released to work/school on such and such a date. There is no diagnosis-all it says is that you were seen by someone in the office. (My notes don't even have a signature. The receptionist stamps them and it's valid.)

BTW-stress is a perfectly valid excuse that nearly anyone can use at any time.

[Pacifist Patriot]

274. None do. That would violate federal privacy laws.

[xmas74]

281. Exactly.

Before HIPAA was in effect I remember having a doctor's note giving my diagnosis. That was around 1999 or so. Now all the notes say is that you've been seen in their office and you are cleared for work/school on the date provided.

[Pacifist Patriot]

158. Self-delete

I don't want the link I posted to confuse the issue on this thread. Thank you PeaceNikki for answering my question.

[valerief]

168. Go back to your people. They're not here. Bye forever. nt

[LLStarks]

160. I can't condone this. This is no better than prescription pad abuse. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

163. You are seriously equating this with RX abuse? Um, okay then.

[somone]

184. Strange comparison

The purpose of a doctor's note is to inform your school or employer that a doctor saw you that day due to some condition. That's all.

A doctor's note is not a legal affidavit of your illness, and it contains minimal information for privacy reasons. Typical doctor's notes:

[uppityperson]

187. People do not seem to understand that a doctor's note only says they saw you on a certain day

or that they release you to go back to work/school and that is all.

[xmas74]

227. Every time I take my kid to the doctor

that's all they say. They don't even have a signature-just a stamp from the receptionist on a form letter with a fill in the blank approach.

They saw the patient. Was the patient sick? No. The patient doesn't have to be sick in order to get a doctor's excuse. They just need to be seen by a doctor.

[uppityperson]

228. Exactly. " The patient doesn't have to be sick in order to get a doctor's excuse. They just need to"

be seen by a doctor."

[xmas74]

238. And the doctor has done nothing illegal.

S/he saw the patient and stated when they would be able to return to work. There was no diagnosis made.

[Name removed]

218. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpankMe]

165. You'll notice the sign...

...makes sense, has proper grammar and correct spelling.

[valerief]

166. Bravo! nt

[RufusTFirefly]

169. Sorry, but I smell a setup.

A la ACORN.

Imagine the hay the Right is going to make with this.

[PeaceNikki]

195. The setup is pushing the meme that they did anything wrong.

They were there, they supported the unions, they wrote notes saying they saw people.

[ClayZ]

174. K and R

[russspeakeasy]

176. Sounds good to me.

[Jmaxfie1]

186. Love that sign!!!

[Hannah Bell]

190. guess they were phonies. the pads look like office pads rather than md pads,

now that i look closer.

little right-wing shills.

tells you something about the right -- all they have is cia-type covert ops.

[PeaceNikki]

194. No, they weren't. They are real, good people supporting protesters.

I just watched a few interviewed on local news. Anyone making a big deal out of this is silly. Much ado about nothing.

[Hannah Bell]

196. reported elsewhere that they were right wing operatives.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[PeaceNikki]

198. Whatever. I'm hearing them speak with my own ears.

They didn't do anything wrong.

[uppityperson]

206. I read that that right wing operatives are the ones who "exposed" them. The same rw ops that

"exposed" planned parenthood for being the godless baby killers they are (sarcasm). It seemed to me that those who "exposed" the doctors were the rwingers.

[Hannah Bell]

208. seemed to me it was rather vague who did what. i'll await further revelations.

[PeaceNikki]

210. You do that. Meanwhile, in WI, we'll keep fighting the good fight.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Hannah Bell]

211. not sure why the snotty tone. hope all of "you" in wisconsin who are

"fighting the good fight" aren't fighting with their supporters, as you appear to be.

nor is the "good fight" confined to wisconsin, nor are you especially virtuous just because you live in wisconsin.

there was no need for the snotty, exclusionary tone.

it's not like similar tricks hadn't been tried multiple times in the last couple of years on the right.

[PeaceNikki]

214. These fine docs have been accused of ethical violations and Breitbart operatives.

[Hannah Bell]

219. so what? it may be true, it may be false. i relied on a report from a supposed supporter.

it may be false; if so, bring the evidence instead of attacking me with snottiness.

if one is going to get involved in politics and protest, one should not expect a pleasant walk in the park. that goes for you, and the docs. presumably if they're legit & they're writing excuses for protestors this isn't their first protest or political involvement & they're not such wusses to be fazed by such things.

my post didn't warrant the personal snottiness. there was nothing personal about my post; i relied on an apparently trustworthy source. you say you saw the doctors interviewed & you know they're legit. they may be, but you've provided no details to justify your feeling.

if they *weren't* legit, do you think they'd *say so* in an interview?

just petty to make it personal.

[PeaceNikki]

221. Really?

Your offend-o-meter needs calibration.

[Hannah Bell]

222. pfft. go "fight the good fight," you seem a very effective cadre.

as i work in a hospital, mds "writing excuses" for protestors doesn't strike me as something most would do, even if they were political.

1) the protestors aren't their patients, & that can be verified. thus the "excuse" wouldn't be very effective.
2) they're liable to lose their licenses if anyone questions the "excuse."
3) presumably the public workers out protesting on a 3-day weekend don't need an "excuse".
4) presumably those out on wed-fri either 1) had the support of their unions; 2) took a paid or unpaid day off -- which most public workers have. so not so much demand for doctors' excuses.

the more i thought about it, the more it seemed weird. you disagree, fine. you say the docs are being slandered. maybe. edit: i agree, they look legit in the video, & they're writing notes for the next week, not the past week.

don't make it personal. which you did, however you may deny it.

[PeaceNikki]

223. Says the person lecturing on making shit personal..

Lol

[Hannah Bell]

225. yes. you made it personal, & i always give back as good as i get & more.

[uppityperson]

217. I went and asked on that topic, it is confusing.

Stay warm and enjoy the couple days of sun.

[Hannah Bell]

229. now that i look at video, it does appear that it's a winger questioning them, but the

docs aren't obvious fakes like the acorn phonies.

rather brave of them, if so.

[DissedByBush]

233. The docs are real

No need for tin foil.

They are real and their hearts are definitely in the right place, even if their methods may account to fraud and malpractice.

I've never been an "end justifies the means" kind of person.

[Hannah Bell]

234. it's not "tin foil" after the example of acorn, the planned parenthood attempt,

& some other set-ups.

[DissedByBush]

249. The ACORN and PP people were real

It was the creative editing that made it not real.

The doctors here are real. And they are writing sick slips with no examination.

[Hannah Bell]

254. no, the assholes that went to acorn weren't really who they said they were,

and neither, if i recall correctly, were the folks who tried the same thing (unsuccessfully) at pp.

the creative editing was the least of it.

those were set-up situations start to finish, paid for by right wing covert ops inc.

[DissedByBush]

315. A misunderstanding her

I was talking about the people who were filmed, not the filmers.

[uppityperson]

236. This is NOT fraud unless they bill insurance companies. Signing "I saw this patient" is NOT fraud

Who are they defrauding? They aren't saying someone is sick. They aren't billing an insurance company for something they haven't done.

They talk with a patient, write a note they have done so.

Where is the fraud?

Where is the malpractice?

[DissedByBush]

250. Defrauding the local taxpayers

The ones who are paying for the teachers to not work.

"They aren't saying someone is sick. "

Here's an example letter from the protests:



"Due to a medical condition." What medical condition if there was no exam?

Malpractice is practicing medicine without having examined the patient.

Isn't writing a sick slip is practicing medicine?

If it's not, then you don't need a doctor to do it. Anyone can.

Save the weasel words and technicalities for the stupid. It's far too easy to see what's going on here.

[Pacifist Patriot]

273. It's far too easy to work yourself into a frenzy of self-righteous indignation.

I don't know what this particular contract stipulates, but a doctor's note for an excused absence doesn't necessarily result in being paid. It depends upon how sick leave and absentee policies are structured.

I'm inclined to give these doctors the benefit of the doubt and put this in the civil disobedience category of sins. Sounds to me like they are expressing contempt for union busting and the ridiculous doctor's note policy rather than setting out to engage in deliberate fraud. Considering they are tax payers, one can presume, they are apparently defrauding themselves as well.

Bigger picture here and I'm not seeing it drawn in black and white.

[DissedByBush]

316. Civil disobedience is great

As long as there is no victim.

Instead of sick leave they could request non-paid leave or use their own vacation time. Instead they called in sick.

Normally I wouldn't care.

But this is the taxpayers getting ripped off for every hour of sick leave paid.

[AtheistCrusader]

239. And so that MUST be true right?

I highly doubt it at this point. Looks on the up-and-up to me. And I am not aware of any laws they are breaking.

[me b zola]

197. Love this!

[RufusTFirefly]

199. Bullshit Alert! Crooks and Liars Busts the "Doctors Writing Excuses" Story

Cross-linking


Bullshit Alert! Crooks and Liars Busts the "Doctors Writing Excuses" Story

Wisconsin Protesters Breitbarted Over Bogus Teachers' Excuses

[PeaceNikki]

202. Still don't buy it. Not after I hard them interviewed.

That criminal right wing think tank is making much ado about nothing.

eta: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

251. I guess they are calling in well! n/t

[jimlup]

257. I'm concerned

That she might be targeted by the thugs.

[WillyT]

262. HUGE K & R !!!

[trud]

263. actually, this is what lying looks like. n/t

[Name removed]

269. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WatsonT]

280. Yep

people seem ok with it though, if it's for a good cause.

The mantra of every despot and sociopath in history: anything is ok if I have a good reason.

[uppityperson]

282. How are they lying? nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

288. I'm not quite sure why my reply to this would be deleted.

It was not a personal attack (I'm seeing similar or worse interaction above that has not been removed). My response stated that this is another person who does not know what a doctor's note contains or what they are for. Okay, a little snarky in it's delivery, but definitely not a personal attack. If you think this is what lying looks like than you do not know how doctor's notes work. It's that simple.

[WatsonT]

279. Isn't that fraud?

And a large violation of their professional ethics?

[uppityperson]

284. No, it isn't fraud. They see someone, talk with them, give them a note saying they did so

that is what a doctor's note is. They are prohibited by law from writing anything on the note except they saw person X on date X. So long as they don't charge insurance, it isn't insurance fraud. If a doctor talks with someone and gives them a note saying that, it isn't fraud.

A doctor's note does not say anything more. It used to, but not these days with the privacy regs and HIPAA. Yes, in many ways the doctor's note policy is ridiculous. I agree.

[B2G]

289. It might not be fraud

But how would these teachers feel if their kids did something like this to get out of class on a school day?

[uppityperson]

292. If I were a teacher, I'd be very happy to have kids skip school to join in this protest.

As a parent, my child did that and I was proud. As a teen, I skipped school to help sandbag when my town was flooding. My parents were proud of me that I did that.

[WatsonT]

308. If they just give a note saying

"Mrs. X has talked to a doctor" then I suppose it would be fine.

But if they start giving sick notes for solidarity rather than health reasons that would be fraud. And the implication was that they'd be giving out sick notes. You don't generally get off work for merely seeing a doctor and being determined to be 100% healthy.

[uppityperson]

309. Employers have no legal right to know what was wrong with you, how you were sick

Things have changed under the privacy rules and they have no right to that information. Legally, all the doctor's note can say is "mrs x was seen by me today" or "mrs x has been released to go back to work" or "mrs x has been under my care and can go back to work". Legally they are prohibited from saying any pertinent information like was the person sick, or what were they sick with, or what were they seen by the doctor for. In some ways a doctor's release note is pretty worthless but some employers and schools still require them.

[Fire1]

283. Terrific! n/t

[Frisbee]

287. Awesome! K&R n/t

[apples and oranges]

291. Yet, students who bring in fake doctor notes are suspended or expelled

Just pointing out the irony.

[uppityperson]

293. "fake doctor notes" is the problem. If they had a real doctor note, from a real doctor, like these

doctors, then no problem. Comparing a note a student wrote and one that a doctor wrote is not apt in this circumstance.

[avaistheone1]

296. k&r

[pam4water]

302. A doctor doing something something not out of self interest. Will wonders never cease!

[uppityperson]

305. They aren't getting paid, not doing it in a clinic, so it MUST be fraud!!1111 OMG!!111

Indeed, it is very nice. Yes, doctors sometimes do things like this not out of self interest.

[pam4water]

306. You mean not doing it in an overseas clinic where people actually need help not like Americans ;)

[uppityperson]

307. Or doing it here in USA where plenty need help.

Indeed, odd as it may seem, some doctors volunteer their services overseas and at home. Must be fraud, or something. Because after all, we know every doc makes $771587865168576813468068-25764837505948345/yr so how COULD they not charge?

[hankthecrank]

304. Hugs to the doctors

[spicegal]

311. Love it!

Hey gov, no one likes a bully and a tyrant.

[MauiMediaPolice]

317. I didn't wanna believe they were REAL doctors, but apparently they are. :(

I did my own fact checking from local news vids and compared the faces to names via google and found this site which has compiled all the known "doctors" involved. Yes it IS true, they were real doctors.
http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2011/02/organized-medical...

It pains me to admit that the doctors are REAL. Let's deal with them and grow up and keep our cause fact based, to me that would be the most ethical way to be as Liberals.

I am a sad supporter today, the GOP machine was right, or mostly right as some have said.

[LAGC]

318. Welcome to DU.

Enjoy your stay.

[tekisui]

319. LOL!

Cheers to the doctors! Civil disobedience and solidarity at its finest. Keep it up!