"I have mortgaged my life and my children's future for an education ..."

[SoCalDem]

that did absolutely nothing for me.

College debt meets real life

By Jenna Ross, Star Tribune

http://www.startribune.com/local/116267944.html


Living with parents. Struggling to cover medical bills. Abandoning dreams of the perfect job. Alumni of the state's public universities paint a disturbing portrait of life with student debt in a new survey by the Minnesota State University Student Association. It's no scientific study -- just 40 alumni responded -- but it's not meant to be. While plenty of agencies distribute data about student loan debt, the effects of that debt are less quantifiable. This survey tries to get at those stories.

"My student debt has made me nervous to take chances," one woman wrote.

"I haven't been able to afford health insurance," said a 2010 graduate of Minnesota State University Moorhead.

snip

Kazee finished his political science degree at Winona State University in 2008. Thanks in part to $300 monthly loan payments, his family lives paycheck to paycheck, he said. "At the end of the day I have mortgaged my life and my children's future for an education that did absolutely nothing for me." He works as a debt collector.

[notesdev]

1. There's irony for you

"He works as a debt collector"

There can't be debt slavery without debt collectors, just sayin'.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. He is far from alone in that

Then again there are educational choices that have to be made and they clearly did not choose well. What does one do with a Poli Sci degree? How did he he think khe was going to pay back the loans?

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. One goes to law school

Which is another $170,000 debt.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I was reading recently the blogs of some law students in lower rated schools

very scary. Big $$$ and not a chance in hell of being employed at any reasonable firm.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. True dat

The reason students pick political science is because they generally want to go to law school. That's it's a giant racket should go without saying.

[fortyfeetunder]

49. Agree dat

I always advise would be lawyers to major in something with transferable skills, and focus on a job they can do if they can't get into law school.

[dkf]

3. Well you also need to be smart about what your degree will do for you.

I don't know what this guy expected to get with a polysci degree.

[raccoon]

5. Nowadays, it's hard to know what your degree will do for you.

"One business management grad makes $14,000 a year as a direct care staffer."

[SoCalDem]

11. and we have to realize that colleges have morphed into "trade schools" for the well-to-do

and the foolish (foolish from the standpoint that they are willing to gamble on that degree paying for the loans).

Until recently, college was the place where kids with some smarts & ambition went to EXPAND their horizons...to figure out what they wanted to do, and to learn how to do it.

The assumption was that if it was TAUGHT in college, there WOULD be an avenue to pursue once one graduated.

There must not be many diligent advisers at colleges these days, or perhaps the curricula are hopelessly outdated.

Also, there are courses at colleges that people no longer can take because of the cost. Maybe you are in a scientific field, but you really are intrigued by something else.. By NOT taking those "interesting" courses, you may be shutting the door on a change in major that you might find more fulfilling and exciting.

I knew many kids who went to college expecting to be one thing, and after a few off-the-wall courses, changed their minds completely. One friend started out wanting to be a microbiologist, and ended up with a double major by adding botany... She went on to work for the Forest Service... in the field. She had expected to spend her life in a lab, and ended up in Colorado in the mountains:)

[ParkieDem]

39. ... and I think our colleges & universities share the blame

Don't get me wrong -- the student loan industry is a racket, but who supports that racket? I went to a relatively expensive liberal arts school, and when anyone said "I just don't think I can afford this," school administrators would just say "oh, just take out $xxx more in loans and you'll be fine."

Students were hardly ever encouraged to analyze how they would repay their loans in the future. And, any time loans or aid was made more available, colleges just simply turned around and raised their tuition and fees.

And for what? Given that most every student is borrowing or getting aid money from the same pool of cash, colleges have to build and invest in more and more expensive (yet dubiously beneficial) products and facilities in order to compete. Big state universities are spending hundreds of millions on new student centers with rock-climbing walls and the like. Things like this make college more expensive, but what about the students who would rather pay less tuition and basic, simple facilities? They are simply told, "oh, well, just take out more loans." The colleges don't tell them that they'll be stuck in a $25k per year job with $400 monthly payments when they graduate.

[hfojvt]

27. I didn't get much with my math degree either

well, one decent job the the military industrial complex and admission to graduate school, but the M.A. in econ has been absolutely worthless as well.

Fortunately, sorta, I had no student loans.

[hunter]

4. Here's the next economic bubble.

And it's going break hard before there's any recovery from the previous bubbles.

You get pounded into the sand by one wave, and the next wave gets you before you can catch a breath.

Have a nice day.

[Doctor_J]

6. The #1 cause of students not finishing

credit cards and school debt.

"American Exceptionalism" on display

[surrealAmerican]

7. Can you imagine how great this country could be ...

... if every student with the ability to do well in college, could go to college, and graduate without any debt?

[Little Star]

8. That is the way it would be if this were a great country.

It's not!

[Xenotime]

10. It would be even better if it were a guarantee.

[jtown1123]

19. We would actually be able to spend, buy homes and stimulate the economy

now we are hanging on by a threat, praying that we will have a few pennies left over at the end of the month.

[mahina]

21. +1

Further imagine if every public school had the teacher support, training, athletics, and standards of the best private schools.

Our whole country would be transformed in short order, much for the better.

Instead we pay many times what that dream would cost, plus the lives of our brothers and sisters, to temporarily conquer lands where we have no interest and to train and arm our own enemies.

The only solution I can imagine is publicly financed elections.

[hfojvt]

29. wouldn't that logically create more college graduates

graduates who would still have to get jobs as debt collectors or something else that does not require all that education.

On the plus side, it would probably create more openings for college instructors.

[Iris]

41. or it could create a creative class of critical thinkers who could create jobs for themselves

Every time someone goes on about how great a business degree is, I have to ask myself why aren't all those business majors making businesses right now?

[SoCalDem]

42. exactly.

creativity needs to be nurtured, and given opportunity & freedom to think, many problems have been solved and many more might be, but many younger people chased the dollar and ended up on a merry-go-round, creating nothing except piles of papers & fat bank accounts, made that way by fleecing pension funds & would-be home buyers..

[xchrom]

12. oy. nt

[DaveJ]

13. Regarding choice of college major...

A few people were saying --what do you expect with a polysci degree. Well I think that is a mean point to make. If everyone majored in guaranteed "lucrative" fields (basically that would be just medicine and law), then that would weed out like 95% of education.

We'd become and even more Spartan and nihilistic world.

However, I would like to say that sometimes one needs to roll up their sleeves and get to work. One cannot rely on their degree to make money by itself. It might be necessary to work for years in a career you love for peanuts before seeing any financial return. I've done a lot of work for free, and am now only finally getting comfortable.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Reallity is a harsh master

Poli Sci is not a degree with a short term future, and never really has been. That does not mean students should not pursue it, if that is what they love. However, they also need to be planning on how they are going to live once they graduate.

Law is already over saturated with new graduates. Our medical training system is running at capacity. Those fields are not growing any time soon.

Asking/expecting students to have a plan is not onerous. I go over that with every student I advise. That said, every one of those students has had offers as they graduate.

[DaveJ]

17. Sounds like you're a great advisor but still think the same way

Legal and Medical majors will always have it easier, since they require a degree in order to practice it. Unlike other fields, where noneducated folks can walk in and start doing the work. Legal and Medical degrees instantly wipe out competition in the field. Of course no field 100% guarantees income, even a heart surgeon can be poor under the right circumstances.

Also, I had a loan that I was not required to start paying for a couple of years, so I did not feel pressured to get a high paying job right after graduation. I think this was better overall (albeit stressful) because I was able to try a few temp jobs and broaden my experience. Regardless of what others think, I feel I am better as a result.

[JCMach1]

36. The advising I give here in the Middle East is ofter counter what happens in the West

as all parents here push students into Engineering, or Medicine. Other majors often lead to lucrative jobs as there simply isn't talent to flesh-out those jobs in the region.

[tabbycat31]

16. a few weeks ago we were talking about the lack of critical thinking

And now we go criticizing majors in college.

Mixed messages here!

[FLPanhandle]

18. What's mixed?

One aspect of critical thinking is being able to realistically understand what your job prospects are for a particular degree.

Nothing bad about getting a poly-sci degree, but someone has failed to properly think through the equation by going severely into debt to get one without thinking about their prospects for being able to pay it back.

That's critical thinking IMHO.

[riderinthestorm]

26. Yes but that person may realistically believe they can get a law degree

but now that the economy has bottomed out, and experienced lawyers are getting laid off, they may not want to go further into debt to just join that unemployed pool.

My daughter graduated last May with a Masters in Medieval Archaeology from the University of York, a top UK school for her field. She'd been working towards that for 6 years and when she started on that path, archaeology in the UK was one of the most stable careers out there. The UK (and other EU countries) by law require an archaeological survey to be done before any construction work so archaeologists, especially highly trained ones, used to be in high demand.

But then the economy took a nosedive and construction dropped to nothing. Experienced field techs are being laid off.

So her college debt in a "liberal arts field", that shouldn't have been a problem when she started, is now a major load.

Does that mean that her skills will never been needed? Or that construction won't pick back up someday in the future so she can get to work in her field, making really good money? Or that 6 years ago, she should have seen this downturn coming?

Your judgemental attitude towards liberal arts majors who THOUGHT they had things figured out a few years ago, isn't very compassionate.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

46. Your daughter's situation is almost the exact same one I'm in............

Got my degree in anthropology back in the 90's when there was a construction boom around here and archeology jobs were plentiful. But come 2003 and the start of the endless wars, the infrastructure spending trickled to near nothing and, guess what, no jobs! How can someone forsee that?

Work has picked up somewhat since then but archeo employers have become much more selective in their hiring criteria. I gave up on the archeology thing altogether and have gone back to school for nursing. Bad part is though, SL's are not enough and I'm having a hard time finding even part-time work to pay my living expenses.

Best of luck to your daughter.

[DaveJ]

20. Agreed. I often wonder about the DU people

Sometimes they are all way TOO progressive for me, then other times they seem, uh like this. People pick their majors when they are like 17 or 18. For one legitimate decision, picking a college major, to ruin one's entire life is ridiculous.

Also, just for the heck of it, I want to reiterate my point above. People should be willing to put in years of work and not expect the 'system' or any corporation to instantly take care of them either. If one stays focused and becomes the best at something, then they will be rewarded, probably, at some point. I want to repeat this, just because there is a lot of talent out there being wasted because people often will not work at anything unless they are being paid. If they need to be paid, then they must not love the work that much.

[tabbycat31]

23. Besides what's wrong with doing something that you love?

I know that the conventional wisdom these days is to major in business or something science related and go into health care. I know that I personally would not last one day in the healthcare industry (I never had a desire to work in that industry).

I'm a political strategist who works on campaigns for a living. I absolutely love my job and would not give it up for the world. I make sacrifices elsewhere but doing what you love is priceless.

[lonestarnot]

24. And so how many fucking pairs of bootstraps have you worn out?

[BreweryYardRat]

43. Thank you on one point, disagreement on another.

People pick their majors when they are like 17 or 18. For one legitimate decision, picking a college major, to ruin one's entire life is ridiculous.

Thank you. I majored in English and minored in history because I was considering going to law school. If I'd known the fucking economy was going to crash so thoroughly, I'd have gone to trade school. By the time the depth of the problem became apparent, it was too late to change majors or switch to a trade school. And I had my degree covered through a pre-paid tuition program. Now, if I want to go to trade school, I'll have to take on debt.

If they need to be paid, then they must not love the work that much.

Getting experience is great, but you've got to have a roof over your head. Some creative endeavors will pay off in the future -- writing, art, et cetera, but you've got to have something to live on until they do.

[readmoreoften]

32. You can't major in medicine and law as an undergrad.

Not to mention law is a terrible market to enter, a poor overall investment in a degree. You can major in biology but even that can be difficult.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. You think a law degree is practical?

In Texas about 2000 people take the bar and pass it twice a year. That's about 4,000 new lawyers a year.

I earned a law degree 25 years ago. I have not passed the bar, but have never been able to get a job as a legal assistant. I worked in the legal field my entire working life, as a court reporter and legal secretary.

I also have a BA in biology. That degree has never gotten me a job either. I earned that 30 years ago, when there were few females who got biology degrees. My biology classes were about 3/4 men. My law classes were about 2/3 men.

If I had it to do over, I would have gotten a BFA in painting and gotten the exact same result in terms of jobs. None.

But I was told I couldn't major in art because that "wasn't practical".


Bullshit. :banghead:

[riderinthestorm]

28. Right on! My nephew is graduating in May from Harvard Law School.

His undegrad from Berkeley and his stellar grades at Harvard mean he's getting a job.....







...... nowhere.

He has no offers. He is going to go back to the firm who had him as an intern last year when he graduates.

I often told my kids when they were growing up that they should do what they love, that their passion will lead them to success. This economy means that the "sure roads" are no longer a pathway to wealth and prosperity which seems to underscore my point all the more. But even more so now, I believe that if they always follow their heart, they will be happy - perhaps they may even be as successful as if they had worked hard towards a more conventional life.

[NJCher]

31. about doing what you love

I often told my kids when they were growing up that they should do what they love, that their passion will lead them to success.

You are right, but I think that it's hard for average students to know what their passion is. We do little to encourage the exploration of the self. There's hardly anything devoted to that in college.

I definitely agree, though, that this is the way to go. Each person is given certain talents and it is criminal not to use them.


Cher

[readmoreoften]

34. Wow, that's intense.

[hfojvt]

30. Thirty years ago

I heard that the country had far more lawyers than it needed, but people keep going to law school.

Many of them seem to be doing well though. It wasn't a bad major for Obama.

[pstokely]

37. but education is not a Presidential requirement

a high school dropout can be President, may even buy their way into office someday with corporate $

[readmoreoften]

33. You hit it on the nose. There is no "practical" degree anymore.

None.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. All of my undergrads who wanted to work have had offers

I teach in the computer field. There is enough retirements and other changes of field that the demand is there. Not sure what the national stats would be.

We make heavy use of CoOp and similar programs so that most of our graduates have practical experience as well as a BS. It seems to make a difference.

[kelly1mm]

35. I actually think a law degree for me was the best investment I ever

made. I went to a "top tier" public school and graduated with about 40k in school debt total. (undergrad was paid for by the GI Bill). I only make about 15k per year as a lawyer though - working 5 hours per week. However, I make a pretty good living doing other things as a small business person working another 20 or so hours per week. A lot of my income is based on my analytical skills which law school and the practice of law makes possible. I do admit I have been extremely lucky and that a great many people (including law graduates) will not get the breaks I have had being in the right place at the right time.

The other thing that allows me the freedom to pursue my entrepreneur side is the fact that my spouse has medical benefits.

Good luck to all out there struggling.

[Liberal_in_LA]

40. Yep. That's how it goes these days. 4 years in college, 20 - 30 years in payments

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. They WILL take your student loan payment out of your Social Security.

That is NOT a joke.

DH went to a ripoff private school (The Art Institute) and graduated with a useless A.A. degree in 1994. He made straight As and it did nothing to help him get a job (He already has a BS and MS in physics/math).

He is now old enough to get Social Security and they DO take it out of his check.

[JoePhilly]

45. Rather then pick a field in which you "think" you will get rich ...

pick a field that you love.

If you are going to take loans on an education, you damn well better LOVE the field you pick.

Lots of people take majors that they don't really like, but that they thought will PAY well. And then if the struggle, they blame the system, not themselves.

I picked a major that, at the time, seemed to have very little up side. But it was what I loved. And so the notion that it might take me a very long time to pay off those loans was something that I KNEW from the start.

I took the loans, not to make myself rich, but to "enrich my knowledge". That is what a student loan really is. It is an investment in you, not an insurance policy to ensure you make more money later.

[Iris]

47. "an investment in you" - exactly!

And I can't help but feel that when you do something you care about, you are going to inevitably contribute something back to society, something that seems to have no place in today's conversations about education and work and life in general.

[JoePhilly]

48. Very true ...

I had been counseled to pick one major over another (I liked both fields) as I left high school for college. The one had obvious high salary potential. The other, not so much, AND this one required advanced degrees (meaning bigger loans).

Initially I picked the "big money major" ... but I hated it in practice, and so switched to the other, which I loved.

Turned out, I was able to combine them. The one I love can actually direct and guide people who love the one I hated. So I know both very well, I understand both, but the one that was "a waste" has actually led me to lead and direct people who do the thing I hated.

Basically, I get to help fix those things I hated about the other field.