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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 03:55 PM
Original message
Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not
Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 04:07 PM by Tsiyu
I know, because I'm one of them. And so are other DUers

I'm not writing this to claim I have it as bad as the poor living on the streets in America (rates of indoor plumbing are a moot point for them, since they have no "indoors") or the poor in Third World countries.

I have heat, a roof over my head, no TV but a Shortwave/AM/FM radio and Dialup internet (which made researching this post take a looooong time.) I don't always have enough to eat, but there are people who feed me when that happens.

I am writing this because there seems to be such a denial of reality among many DUers about the lives of the poor in this nation.

Currently, around 2 million Americans are living without running water or with insufficient running water.

Here is a story about one community struggling (bold mine)

http://www.theroot.com/views/not-all-americans-have-eno...


"Time and again, he and his neighbors had had their entreaties to get municipal water rebuffed. In part, they were told it was not cost-effective for either a public water supplier, or any of the private ones that accommodate wealthier residents in Mississippi's countryside, to service a handful of outlying households in Sunflower County.

"We haven't heard from nobody. Nobody has contacted us. There must be some kind of holdup," says Martin, 71, a retired laboratory maintenance worker.

Ninety-seven percent of residents in Mississippi are connected to a water system. The residents of Sunflower County belong to the other 3 percent. More broadly, they are counted among the roughly 2 million people that the Rural Community Assistance Partnership (RCAP) estimates have insufficient water or no running water at all. "It's a real problem when you have 2 million people in one of the wealthiest nations in the world who are without complete access to indoor plumbing facilities ... and water services," says Stephen Gasteyer, a Michigan State University sociologist and international researcher on water resources. That population includes more than 1 percent of blacks in Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, South Carolina and Virginia. Montana has the largest proportion of blacks without adequate services, 4 percent. (The urban poor in substandard housing also lack water.

"You have this hidden population of people who never got access to these facilities ...," adds Gasteyer, who is formerly the RCAP's director of research and policy. He cited the threat of potentially deadly water-borne illness faced by those without access to safe water. "Add to that the human dignity part of this. Imagine not being able to take a shower because you don't have water, not being able to flush your toilet because you don't have water."



And this is based on 2000 Census data, but it tells some of the story:

http://www.rcap.org/stilllivingwithoutbasics

"The U.S. 2000 Census reveals that more than 1.7 million people in the United States, 670,986 households, still lack the basic plumbing facilities that most of us have come to take for granted. To some observers, these Americans may appear to be lost or insignificant within the larger population, but the hardships they endure in their daily lives are very real.

It may seem reasonable to assume that people who live in the 21st century with services more characteristic of a bygone era choose to live in places or situations where modern services are not available, or to live in such conditions only temporarily. A closer look at the numbers and trends reveals the opposite. A combination of circumstances some of them persistent have excluded these people from the reach of development.

Some of the people affected are the poorest of the poor, living in sparsely populated rural areas or in densely populated urban areas. They live in almost every state from coast to coast in the vast reaches of Alaska; the urban centers of southern California, New York, and Illinois; the sprawling colonias bordering Mexico; the Indian reservations and counties of the Four Corners region in the West; the underserved rural communities of West Virginia and the New England states. More than a third of them have household incomes below the federal poverty level. In fact, if you were born in 2000 into a family living below the poverty level in the United States, you were four times as likely as a fellow American living above the poverty level to be in a home without adequate indoor plumbing."



Many homes in Appalachia are substandard, lacking amenities most of America take for granted:

http://www.ruralhome.org/information-and-publications/i...

Some are helping:

http://www.app-pov-proj.org/igive.html

" Sixty seven percent of the households have no wastewater treatment, allowing 314,000 gallons of untreated waste per day to enter streams and rivers.That's 13 gallons per resident. EPA statistics indicate that 558 persons in McDowell are drinking untreated groundwater. They also concede that the number is under reported."



My point is, if you're going to discuss "poverty in America" on DU, please do some research.

You don't have to care. That's your call. But real poverty in America is a fact that you would do well to study if you wish to truly understand the issues facing the poor.




(Edit for subject verb agreement)









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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. My MIL in Ohio has no running water. She has an outhouse too. She's
living in an OLD house, I think 1800's and can't afford any better on retirement. She's perfectly happy, but struggles.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. You learn to live with it


especially those older folks who grew up that way. It's hard for those younger folks with kids, though.

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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. She's learned to live without it, but they had plumbing until the 90's
it disintegrated (a pipe burst) and they didn't have the money to fix it. The outhouse was there from generations past and they just had to use that. She goes and buys water in jugs or gets water from the spring on her property.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Jeez, it seems like someone in her family could fix the pipe! There's no way
I would let my mom live like that.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
77. +1
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
117. This is what the RW does... they make assumptions, and make it all PERSONAL problems.
The Democratic party that *I* knew understood the societal issues behind stories like this, and didn't jump to confusions concerning people they know nothing about.

It is time to begin to THINK.
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. Sometimes families need to move in together to help each other
We have to stop living in this world where we don't pool our resources as a family & live together. We can't keep living separately, that is a NEW modern way of living. in the 1940's extended families would live together. It's this living apart that is hurting many families financially, everyone is accumulating debt to live independently & separately. It doesn't have to be that way.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. We aren't here to dictate to each other how we think others should live.
I am asking you now, politely, to start thinking in terms of this being a societal problem.

That is the only way that solutions will be found.

Could you please do that for me?


Thank you.
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. Ok-educate me
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. about what
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Tell me how:
Tell me how family disconnection and caring for our disabled, eldery, and impoverished parents & children is not a societal issue.

I'm just stating that there is no shame in having a parent live with you-in response to the person who's MIL doesn't have water. I've walked the walk-my mother lived with me until she died and I changed her diapers and fed her (literally). Not everyone can do that. I did it living in a 40 yr apartment with my spouse & 2 kids.

I'm not saying that the State has no responsibility to it's citizens. I never said that. Our Government should care for those in need.
I am saying that helping family shouldn't be looked down on in this country, it's overwhelming (trust me) to do it.

I am not understanding what you are trying to say because you are not giving any specifics, you are just saying think socially. So please educate me on it. I'm not being snarky.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. You are continuing to treat it as a personal problem, and that will always mean that MANY are left
out.

I will repeat, because you may have missed it.... Treating homelessness as a PERSONAL ISSUE, with the solution being families and charity, is exactly what the TEABAGGERS are about.

I'm guessing you don't want to be associated with them....?

You said to "educate you". I can only do that if you are willing to hear.
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. I did NOT say the Government had no responsibility for it's citizens
Again, I didn't say the STATE/Government should not be involved or part of this.

All of society has to work together to end homeless-Federal & State, employers, citizens ALL OF US!!

Go to Redstate & argue over there with the Teabaggers instead of ASSUMING I've taken their position.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. No... you just didn't mention it.
I hear your anger.... you know, those of us who are left out in this damned cold are damned angry too, because he citizens of this country won't INSIST that the government go back to providing plenty of homes for everyone.

I am speaking to people here who call themselves "progressive", yet it isn't an issue here. I have no need to talk to teabaggers, when my "own people" won't listen!
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
120. wrong spot
Edited on Wed Feb-02-11 12:50 PM by barbiegeek
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
118. Can't your MIL live with you or all u siblings repair it.
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thetonka Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Water is more important than computers and the internet
Just saying, if I was in a position where I lack the essentials I would not be on the internet and I would sell the computer.

Priorities.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Selling the computer brings in some money, once.
It doesn't provide an income stream, or the necessary facilities.

Jus' sayin'...

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Dear California Peggy


I love you...


If anyone saw this computer they would laugh. I wouldn't get $20 bucks for it. And I do have hope of getting water, but it still is an inadequate system.

To have a well dug or to hook up to the water system here would cost me thousands of dollars. So I'm waiting on my tax refund so I can purchase a new pump (or rebuild the old one which I've done once in 2003 - not sure if the motor is worth it now.) Even then i only have a small spring but I make do with rain and help from others. Fortunately where I live there are many community springs where I can drive and get water, but man, it is heavy.

But isn't it hilarious that the only response someone would have is to criticize? Like i said, people don't have to care....I'm glad you do :hug:


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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
115. "But isn't it hilarious that the only response someone would have is to criticize?"
That is the result of too many people being too affluent, and having no concept of reality, and no heart to even HEAR reality.

I have seen so much of this criticize first..... *maybe* learn something later..... much later.

It is ugly, and it is what is killing the Democratic party.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #115
135. i have friends here in france with outhouses
Edited on Wed Feb-02-11 02:59 PM by reggie the dog
i live in a rural area, no waterhook ups and the condos on the coast about 40 miles away drives prices up high, so poor people move high up the hills where there are no pipes, just springs which go dry in the summer and freeze in the winter


but shhhh dont tell the rich fucks in cannes, st tropez, or monaco, they dont want to hear about us poor folks
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #115
161. Follow up...
"We aren't here to dictate to each other how we think others should live."

Follow up...

"too many people being too affluent, and having no concept of reality, and no heart to even HEAR reality...."

Sheesh.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #161
165. I raise you a sheesh.
Being oppressed doesn't mean you can't speak out... of course, some here would LIKE for us not to be able to speak out.

Libertarians believe there shouldn't be any laws.... let people do whatever they want. THAT is obviously NOT what I meant about telling others how to live and what to believe.

"Your freedom to swing your arm ends where my nose begins."

It really isn't that hard to understand, so sheesh back atcha.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Stupid judgmental statement.
Something one would expect from the right-wing and not a real liberal.
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barbiegeek Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
119. Hey--family is important-
When my mother had a stroke-she moved into my home & I bathed her & changed her diapers, sold her home, & cared for her until she died. AND I did it in a 40 yr old house with 2 bedrooms & 2 kids.

I see PLENTY of people too selfish to care for their OWN parents while they live in McMansions and leave their parents on only SS & disablity or dump them in state institutions and NEVER even try to move them home with them. That is republican right wing.

Maybe it was a judgmental statement, but a correct question. In Asia, they would never let their parents live alone.
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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. being on the Internet brings in $$$ ...........that could be used to get
water.....and other priorities....
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. you probably don't give money to pan handlers either
because they are subhuman and shouldn't have the choice to buy alcohol with it. Am I right?
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thetonka Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Nope, but way to assume the worse about people
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. you seemed to be doing some pretty nasty assuming there yourself.
Web
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. think you just proved her point dude
:rofl:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
106. I don't give money to pan handlers because for some of them it is a job,
and they bring home more than me in a days wages. I will buy someone a meal or a coffee provide them with clothing and direct them to shelter, but I won't give someone asking for it, money.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. have you considered why it might BE a job for some?
I don't fault anybody for not having the cash to hand out, hell I'm not flush very often, but I do despise the attitude that people who are destitute can't choose for themselves and if they want to spend it on chemical escape who has more reason? I used to think like that myself but realized my superiority was just another way of being an asshole so now I give if I have it and say sorry if I don't.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. you'd probably kill a laying hen cause you felt like some meat for lunch.
your type doesn't do very well when placed between a rock and a hard place.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Then you don't seem to have very good survival skills.
Short term gains are a hallmark of the GOP. Jus sayin.
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May Hamm Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. Oh for goodness sake!
When the city forced my parents to stop using their septic and hook up to city sewer it cost $12,000. And that was only the hook up fee and only for sewer. Digging the trench cost extra. You think you could sell your computer for 12 thousand bucks?

Just saying.

If the city or county will not bring water and sewer lines to the communities there is nothing residents can do about it. They can't even sell out and move because this is their family home and that means something to a lot of folk. Besides, who would buy?

But I'm blowing in the wind, aren't I? I doubt you can understand.

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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. I have the opposite view.
Having lived with no running water, limited electric, and outhouses, I tend to cherish the contact with the outside world that the internet provides.

Of course there is a difference between having no running water and having NO water available.

but, internet is pretty important for some folks out here in the boonies.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
49. Sell me your computer, and a month of you internet, and pay your mortage for rest of the year
Let's see how that works out.
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. You want to talk about priorities...?
Yours don't seem to be in line with the rest of us here...
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. Internet is ESSENTIAL today if you want help or a job
It's quite obvious you are not up to speed as to what is the reality of many poor in this country.

JOBS -- many of the burger flipping jobs refuse to take applications real life anymore. It's ALL done on the net.

There is a real problem finding information about charity help out there - there is no central information guides anymore. Even United Way doesn't have all the info out there -- and they send people to the net as well.

Even if it's dialup it is ESSENTIAL -- and will become even more essential when local communities cut library times -- th eonly other option for net access for the poor.

Walk a mile in the shoes of the folks you judge... :eyes:
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
65. You don't get it, thetonka. You have to have a community
infrastructure to get running water in a very tiny house. You can buy a computer for a few hundred dollars. If you have enough land to have a well, things are different. But even if you have a well, it is expensive to run pipes to your house, buy the sink and faucets and other plumbing fixtures you need. There is no comparison between buying a computer (especially since you can get cheap ones secondhand) and installing running water.

You and a lot of other Americans do not know what it is to be poor. Have you ever drunk water in a tin cup from a pump? You will never want water from a plastic bottle again if you ever drink good well water from a metal cup.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. My neighbors' new well cost $6000 to drill


Their in-laws down the road spent half that to get hooked to the system, and the pipe didn't have to come that far. For me? at least ten grand.

My spring is constant but not huge capacity, 25 feet down (just enough for a shallow well jet pump) and you are correct. It tastes SO GOOD I miss it!

But even when it's hooked back up, there are hundreds of dollars worth of plumbing to repair due to storm damage, so i will just have to run a hose to the house for a while.

Better than many have it, so i will not complain. I will probably come onto DU to celebrate. My old shoulders are seriously worn out and they will be doing most of the celebrating :toast:


And to all those above who had my back, I love you all. You understand. Without my $20.00 a month dialup I would be a sad puppy and unable to connect with faraway family, my beautiful kids, or keep up with current events or e-mail my boss who is a long distance phone call (but my friends would be happier cuz they could reach me on the phone easier ;) )
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #69
139. dialup is 20 amonth?
30 euros a month and you get broadband, telephone service with free local non cell calls and free calls to the usa and about 50 other countries, and 25 tv stations.... i never use the tv but hey...

prices suck in the usa

i had forgotten that since moving here.

i am poor 800 or 900 a month in euros poor and i have to have my net to talk to people or else there are just the grape fields and a couple of farmers to talk to
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #139
148. What's the euro/dollar exchange rate these days?



Man, I'd love a chance to talk to those grapes... :P

I pay $58/month for local landline, unlimited dialup and voice mail, so not too bad compared. I'm also a member/shareholder of the coop so I earn capital credits every year.

Dialup is available and many here have it. Lots of community stuff to do; every small town has a little library - I think I read somewhere that we had more libraries per capita (though talking teeny towns here) than any other county in TN

Love your sig pic, BTW

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #148
151. Out of curiosity what county do you live in?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #151
152. I think you were responding to regie the dog


and I believe he is in France



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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #152
163. Actually, I was asking you, what county in TN do you live in?
I think you thought I said "country" instead of "county".
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. I did


and as to your question, i would rather keep that private.

I will say that, for several months, whenever I was on the Google News page and hit the link for Local News, I received results for Monaco. Got a kick out of that...


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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. You mind sharing if it's East, West, or Middle TN?
If you don't I certainly respect your privacy, but I've spent some time in TN and would like to get a sense of where it is you are talking about.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. Cumberland Plateau


Which would be Middle TN
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #151
154. france
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #148
153. 1 euro is 1.37 us dollars as of today
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
81. Unless...
and I'm not, your one of those geeks that use water to cool their computers. :P
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am horrified at these statistics.
My heart goes out to you, and to everyone who is enduring this situation.

It is unconscionable and wrong.

What do we do when our so-called public servants (now there's a joke) won't listen?

:hug:

Recommended.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Again, thank you


:yourock:



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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Reflex
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. On dialup RT, so no youtube for me


but thanks for the thought.

And I pray to the Goddess every night that you get that beer and travel money, Dude.


:hi:




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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. We dont have water either
Our well went dry 6 years ago, so we are paying a neighbor to hook up a garden hose to our house so we get enough water for everyday living.

City annexed us 4 years ago, and even if we could afford a $6,000 well the planning office said they probably wouldnt approve one being drilled in the city limits.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. You really learn to conserve water though, don't you?


If i'm at someone's home and hear somebody taking a fifteen minute shower I'm almost horrified now!

I take "bucket baths" with five gallons tops. And I've learned how to do the dishes with very little water (bleach helps.)

I am planning a rain catchment system too. Have you looked into that?

Currently I have tubs and a barrel that collect a good bit when it rains for the animals and garden.

You have my best wishes that things improve for you soon.

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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I lived in North Africa with people who brought water in everyday
They had 4 very large jars (man sized jars) brought in everyday. That was the water for 16 people. Not to even think about hot water. We went to public baths, Actually Turkish Baths) for real body cleaning. Otherwise using the water was very measured.

It was a good experience, but hard to live that way.....for me anyway. At least these people had water delivered. I knew people who had to go get it themselves. That is a hard, back breaking, job. We are very spoiled here. I try to conserve, but I'm not as conservative with water as I should be.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I had a great discussion with a student here from Nepal


about how spoiled most Americans are, and how they don't conserve water. He was freaking out when he first got here and saw how much water people wasted brushing teeth, etc.

When water is precious, you never waste a drop...

Wish we had a Turkish bath here! :)

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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
61. Water is wonderful!!! I am afraid I use too much of it, but...........
I do notice what I do with water and try to conserve. I save gray water for the garden.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
68. What's your rainfall? And lose the tubs, they're a menace.
For effective long term storage you want minimum 250 gallon (1000 litre) lightproof containers. (Those pallet cubes are fine for transport but can quickly turn into algae farms in the sun.)

Beyond that, just as with the contents of cheeleader's sweaters, bigger is always better.

With fair rainfall a 10 kl water tank will see most housholds through between rains. 25 kl will give you a garden that is damned near droughtproof. If it is going to be your primary water supply, split it over at least 2 tanks for disaster proofing.

Big tanks also make it far more affordable to have water trucked to you when the rains fail.

Assuming parity between here (Aust.) and there, for the price of a well ($6000 quoted in this discussion), you should be able to install 40-50,000 litres of watertanks complete with a new pump and plumbing and unlike with a well, the investment can be spread out over multiple separate purchases. You can start with as little as 1000 litres on a stand with no pump solely for drinking water and expand from there. Just be aware tanks are empty space, and economies of scale, scale really really quickly when the commodity on sale is the void within a container. Big bites will cost less in the long run.

Consider sump pumps to move water from remote buildings if you're on a larger property.

Pro tip: If you don't already use one, get a twin tub washing machine and do 2 or 3 loads between water changes. Older barrel style with wringer also works. Oh and if you use only pure soap flakes and nappy sanitiser for your laundry, the water can go straight onto a garden without any worries.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I have a blue 55 gallon barrel


under one downspout and it gets a little bleaching now and then but never grows anything.

the tubs are great, actually, for toilet flushing and garden, and a littel bleach kills anyhting growing in them. This time of year is no problemo. Just ice now and again ;)

I have done a lot of research on various catchment systems, including ones on animal housing, etc.

I'd like to get darker tanks and have them gravity fed as much as possible.

But designing the system is money. For $45 bucks i can rebuild a good old pump i have (if the motor's good.) For a few hundred, i can get another shallow jet pump and that's probably what i'll do now.

but thanks for the tips :hi: MadMonk

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
79. We're working toward moving off grid and have been looking at low cost catchment options.
I wanted to share the following link to people building low cost cisterns out of earth filled, recycled PET bottles and cement.

http://www.temasactuales.com/temasblog/environmental-pr... /

:hi:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #79
158. thanks for the link


and for all your contributions to this thread
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
101. What will the city charge to hook up to water? n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes there is poverty n the US... I will never deny it
yes there are homes in the US with no access to services.

Yes you are in that situation, I am sorry.

But no, when you look at statistics and compare them to well Egypt, our poor are still better off.. when you compare them to the GENERAL MIDDLE CLASS... no, they are not.

But when you do a comparison... well I am sorry... I have my doubts that in the US we have the percentage of people dying from enteric diseases south of the border, let alone in places like Egypt.

We are really comparing apples and oranges, even when the suffering is just as deep at the individual level. I'll put it to you this way.. you got a computer, and dial up... that is a luxury in a ciudad perdida.

We have issues of food insecurity in the US. Heat insecurity... water in some places, especially in rural areas... and we have suffering we should NOT have. We should have better distribution of resources, and food, and heat and water and all that. But no, we are not anywhere close.

And yes I am familiar with poverty, deep poverty, in both San Diego County and Tijuana Mexico... people here, do not face this.



Yes people here look for things in trash cans, but not at the local dump, nor live at the dump

Nor this



We are close to this though



Mexico



The US

Or these housing conditions



For the record we were there once, and having slightly better conditions is not an excuse. I still hate the idea that when as a medic we took blankets to the poor in the colonials, and here we need to do the same. Or the idea that we have to feed people. But we still do not have to take these with us round the US at all times.



With of course a liter of water. We are not there yet..

Nor does this mean we should wait to solve this until we reach those conditions.. we should not... and as a society it shames me.
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I imagine those who live in poverty
have a much different perspective on 'who is worse off' than those observing from the outside. It's like arguing over who is worse off in which degree of hell....it's all hell.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That is why I said at an individual level
the suffering is the same.

But we have a lot less of a hill to climb to bring people out of it. We lack a political will.

But if what I need to bring people out of it, is enough money for food, water, electricity and dignity, at a policy level it is less difficult than having to also have to teach people how to read... treat them for things that should not happen, and taking a kid like the one in that photo into a school is extremely hard... nor do we have people dying from enteric diseases.

So at an individual level the suffering is there, and great... but at a policy level it is EASIER to bring these people out... if there is a will.

Now there is something else. Over the last 10 years we have had a massive increase of poverty in this country... by several million... we are up from 45 to close to 60 last time I checked, This means an incredible increase in human suffering. Why I also chose that picture of that woman in Mexico City, and that man who knows where. That is your outward sign that it is getting much worst.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. And this is supposed to help the OP's cause how??
Usually your posts are helpful but this was ridiculous! Why don't you just kick the guy instead of pretending to be "helpful."
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Whatever... look at individual level
there is great suffering... but it is important to recognize that at a POLICY level, which would benefit the OP if there was the POLITICAL will, our hill is not Mt. Everest...

I like to recognize the reality of where we are. And where Mexico is, is where the US was in the 1930s. I have hope that perhaps, we will be able to climb our mountain and pull the OP and many others out... but it is a mountain, NOT Everest.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thanks there


I'm not really suffering here, because I'm used to it for one thing and because if i need a shower or water there are places i can go. Many without running water also lack transportation or any way to improve their situation. And it appears with fracking, foreclosure and increased poverty in the US, lack of common amenities is only going to get worse.


But living in Appalachia has taught me so much about the reality of American poverty.

I just wish people would open their eyes and stop with the "but it's not that bad - at least it's not..." crap. For many Americans, the poverty is devastating.




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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. AH key word (Graphics, aka photos from there)
Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 04:53 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Appalachia, the worst poverty concentration in the US for ever...

Yes thanks for pointing this out. That is to the same level I saw in Mexico. And it is inexcusable.









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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. It's a tough life


but it's easier in some ways when everyone is pretty poor and you aren't judged by what your trailer looks like.

But it shouldn't be this way with our level of wealth in this nation...

and even worse are the reservations..
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
140. it is not quite that bad
an hour or so up off the med coast up from cannes, lots of people in ramshackel cabins, caravans, trailers, and do it yourself houses, many with no drinking water acess when the springs go dry for a month or two in the summer, but it is a very small area and perhaps only a few thousand people are concerned, there was an article in the paper a few months ago, many retired people can afford a trailer in the woods. often electricity comes from generators etc. these are old people from this area too who are poor, plus young adults who are poor
total opposite of the azur coast but not as
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. dupe
Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 04:52 PM by ohheckyeah
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Here Appalachia service project
http://asphome.org /

Yes they are a Christian group... but in Appalachia it is not with the government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia_Service_Project
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. It seems that there should be some help from somewhere.
The idea that the government just doesn't give a rat's ass is sickening. Might any of the stuff below be applicable and helpful?


Section 504 Rural Housing Loans and Grants
# Low-interest loans and grants are available to help very low-income people repair or improve their homes to eliminate health and safety hazards. Among the eligible projects are improvements to or replacement of wells. Applicants must own and live in a home in the rural U.S. and be able to show that they can repay the loan. Grants are available only to people 62 and older.

Read more: Grants for a Water Well | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_5946577_grants-water-well.html...


Household Water Well Program
# This program makes grants to private non-profits to help low to moderate income individuals in rural areas construct, refurbish and maintain individual-owned wells that serve households. The organizations use the grant funds to establish revolving loan funds from which individual households may borrow. Some of the recipients of these federal grants were Aid to Distressed Families of Appalachian Counties, Oak Ridge, Tenn.; Self-Help Enterprises, Visalia, California; Southeast Rural Community Assistance Project, Roanoke, Virginia.; Northeast Michigan Affordable Housing Inc., Alpena, Michigan; and Rutland West Neighborhood Housing Services, Inc., West Rutland, Vermont.

Read more: Grants for a Water Well | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_5946577_grants-water-well.html...
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Thanks for those links


it's hard for me to research much with this slow frickin connection. Another reaon I love DU - it's dialup friendly... :)

Thank you; i will have to check these out.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
111. Yeah, that would have
been better off left unsaid.
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
72. All true. However, on virtually all the major indicators the US...
...is going backwards at a considerable rate of knots. Infant mortality, childhood mortality, longevity, literacy, numeracy, overall education, general health and wellbeing. And virtually all of the movement is driven primarily by trends below the poverty line.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. What definitions are used for "insufficient" or "adequate"?
There's obviously a big difference between "no water" and "insufficient water". The question is how big... and what proportion of these 2 million fit into each bucket (no pun intended).
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R because I do care.
My mother and her family grew up in poverty, it was multi-generational. We have also lived near Appalachian folks who were hidden from the public view. It's one of those things that you don't believe it until you see it and when you do, it's still hard to take in.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. It's nowhere near as bad here as in WV or Kentucky


but I could drive around and take pictures very close to here that would really open some eyes.

However, these are my friends. I love them and i admire their tenacity and I would never expose them to DU.

Sometimes, though, I wish i could....


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. nothing in your op backs your claim that 2 million people
in this country live without running water. Of course, it's shameful that anyone in this country lives with inadequate plumbing- unless like I did they choose to do so- but inadequate plumbing is not the same as no access to running water.

If things were as dire as you portray, there damned well would be an epidemic of water borne illness. There is not.

And I can imagine not being able to flush a toilet or take a shower. I lived for two years without running water- just a pump and an outhouse. Granted that was a choice, but I do have some idea about what it's like to live without running water.

I also live in a poor rural area- lots of trailers and shacks. some towns around here didn't even get electricity until the 1960s.

Yes, it's awful that there's poverty such as this in the United States. inexcusable.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
60. Just three Waterborn illnesses are estimated to cost over $500 million

a year to the US healthcare system.

That would buy a lot of wells....


And that may not be an epidemic in your eyes, but contaminated water does make Americans sick. I suppose they're not dying off in vast numbers yet, so no reason to get alarmed or to complain about the water supply yet. Only the poor are affected anyhoo, so why worry about it, right?



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18020305

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/1007141517...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/07/14/us-legionnair...

As to your first question, I included the homeless. They need water as much as the rest of us.


At least, in my opinion.


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
141. why not take photos
of their homes without them in the photos?
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. k&r
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
52. Thanks SM


:hug:
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. I can't put into words
how it makes me feel to know that you and others don't have the basics of running water. Years ago I lived in an area where it wasn't uncommon but I guess it's easy to forget how tough others have it when you become isolated in your own little world.

In a nation that claims to be number 1, that spends billions upon billions on 'defense', it is unconscionable for anyone to not have running water and adequate food and shelter.

I know how hard it is when our electricity and thus our water goes out (we have a well)and I can't imagine the struggle to live without running water on a daily basis.

Having said all of that, what do we do to change things?

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. Your words mean so much



Honestly, i am fine because I've learned to live with it off and on since I've moved to Appalachia (by choice.) But so many are not and i appreciate your caring so much.

This issue is just like the issue of the homeless (who truly have it the worst of any of us.) People need to wake up to the reality of poverty. Once you know the truth, you can't forget.

Pressuring our legislators to invest in infrastructure for those deprived is one step, though with so many Repukes ( and too many Dems, unfortunately) in DC diverting all funds to their Corporate donors, i don't see much hope of that any time soon.


If you know someone without running water, offer them some of yours, or to let them take a shower once in a while.

it means a lot...
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I'm glad you are fine.
But you shouldn't HAVE TO BE FINE without running water. It's just wrong.

The only person I've personally encountered in a while without running water was my brother when his well ran dry. He did laundry and took showers here until he had his well fragged or something like that.

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
142. you dont have water
but why do i have the feeling that hillbilly blue bud is very easy to come across down there, and free if you know the right people ;)
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. Then there are people who have it and can't use it, poor or not
The military's pollution plume poisoned the town wells on Cape Cod when I lived there. The water was so bad they told us not to shower in it, let alone drink it or cook with it. You can imagine how well that went over.

Later they said showers were OK, but not baths, even after they'd flushed out the system and shut down the worst wells.

I used a water service that delivered 5 gallon carboys of water from off Cape.

You never know how great it is to turn a tap and get water for tea until you can't.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Fun times for you...


It is a miracle - running water. And I fear more and more Americans are going to have to deal with what you dealt with, due to fracking and groundwater depletion by the unscrupulous...




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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. I've been considering a move down to Mexico
at least during the winters (especially now, 10 degrees, heading below zero, snowing like hell, high winds, iffy power and the 1946 floor furnace aint cuttin it) and I know exactly what I'll have to deal with in the way of water, although you can use tap water there if you boil it so it's OK for cooking, as well as bathing and washing up.

I'm just not looking forward to that part of it. Oh well.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks for sharing your story...
... and statistics. It's beyond shameful and heartbreaking that anybody must live in such horrific conditions. I have had my share of hard times but some people that have never experienced poverty simply don't understand. Hang in there, my friend. :hug:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. I'm doing very well, actually, compared to many in this nation
I should have at least a hose running into the house soon.

but you are welcome. it's rather embarrassing to admit you don't have running water, as most Americans take it for granted that we all have it.

That's what made me write. Because we all don't!


:hug:


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
143. why be embarrased?
anyone who would pass judgement on you is just an asshole anyways and not worth your time. i have water, i also have a friend who is poor and lives in an RV up on blocks on a piece of land in the hills, no electricity, no water. a wood burning stove to heat the rv (using little wood actually) and to cook on. you can get drinkable water for free in town a 10 minute drive away but he only has a motorcycle but his friends with vans help him out. anyone who wants to judge him can fuck off. he knows construction, but the job market in wales was shit, he has a welsh friend here so he figured he would try. but construction is slow now. even after huge floods there is little work to be found. they work but not every day.... and working when there is work is nothing to be ashamed of. being poor isnt either.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #143
149. sorry so late responding to all your additions to this thread.
Edited on Thu Feb-03-11 12:38 AM by Tsiyu

I've enjoyed them all

I came home from the metal scrapyard - $58 for aluminum cans, $495 for a junk car and some other metal - to no power.

My friends were glad for the haul. They are a young couple; she's pregnant. They are in the process of remodeling a trailer on 5 acres so they headed down to the Home Improvement store and I came home to a dark home and no heat.



(As we were headed off the mountain, passed a guy who is always out walking the highways picking up cans. He supplements his disability and keeps the roads clean...but I digress)

As to your post...That's why I live here. It's simple. You aren't killing yourself just to look like everybody else and be miserable, stuck in traffic all day.

If we could get a college up here, that would be awesome. Some of us have talked about a cooking school/restaurant/farm where we could get help from TN with agri-tourism programs.

Anyhoo, thanks for your input.


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #149
155. i know what you mean
I love living up in the hills and you could not pay me to live down on the azur coast at a place like cannes or st tropez, even if i became rich somehow i would never live down there
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #149
162. Your idea of a cooking school/restaurant/farm sounds brilliant!
Some time ago, I saw information about a program that had money available for projects like these, that would begin a business, and the income could be used for low-income housing.

This sounds like a real possiblity, and I hope the people there can follow up on it.

Good luck to all of you! :yourock:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #162
168. Thanks for your encouragement
Edited on Thu Feb-03-11 05:21 PM by Tsiyu
Quite a few of us have discussed the idea, but everyone is so busy surviving.

I was inspired by one of the chefs (now deceased) that I worked for, as are a few of the others who worked with him. I have quite extensive plans on paper and they say if you write it down you can make it happen.

I have been inspired by others who have done the same thing, farm-to-table establishments. But the culinary skills and fine dining service skills a young person might learn could help them survive as they get out in the world outside of the mountain and get educated.

Many young people here try to further their education, contrary to common believe about Mountain people. But opportunities are scarce when a kid has few resources and no transportation. Commuting an hour each way to school is cost prohibitive. The only institute of higher education here is for the very elite. Though they offer limited scholarships, the univ. townfolk and staff would rather pay the poor local kids crap wages to cook their food and scrub their toilets than to help them get the education that might better their lot in life.

So many young men and women here have no hope, no self-esteem. So many young men and women get addicted to pain pills or alcohol or heroin - a bigger problem than many realize - and they get in trouble, have absolutely no way of paying for legal representation or for fines and jail costs and probation costs, so they just give up. These are the kids who, armed with a little engineering or public health know-how, can come back and help their own some day. Instead, they commit suicide, die in car wrecks, rot in prison.



THERE has to be a way to reach them without judgement and without using fear or humiliation as a means of social connection. Some people do all they can to chew up poor mountain kids before they're even out of the gate, so you fight them right alongside the demons which plague the kids.

Anyhoo, better go check the weather.

Stay warm, bobbolink. :pals:



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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. k and r
good post

I live on the edge of poverty and no water so I have some understanding. I have a bit more of a safety net due to family circumstances, but the physical reality - especially water, or the lack of - is there.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Thanks kali


I have a great network of family and friends and i really don't suffer except for the toll the water jugs take on my freakin' shoulders.

And now I must leave this thread to...go get collect tub water and water the horses..lol

Your words mean a lot and I hope things get better for you very soon. I loved looking at your farm pics the other day btw (think that was you.) What a beautiful place....


:hug:

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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
51. We have a rainwater cistern
We can't get water out here even though the nearest line is less than a mile away--too much money. The wells in this neighborhood went bad years ago, long before the gas wells went in. So we have a rainwater cistern, which we have to clean annually and keep chlorinated. If it doesn't rain for a while, we have to have water delivered--that's really expensive, but you do what you have to do. We've been drinking bottled water for 20 years, because we don't really regard the cistern water as safe.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I've thought about one of those

I'm trying to design an above ground system i can move to the future (hopefully) house i want to build on my land.

Not sure if it will be cheaper than a cistern, though. The rainwater system guy near here charges thousands for his setups..lol.

I do have an unused septic tank - concrete - that was never used because the previous owner had it put in too close to the spring. i have wondered if i could make use of it for a water cistern, but haven't gotten that far yet.

Rainwater has been my savior many times, though! And snow....but it takes a lot of fresh snow to get a little bit of water.

Hope you aren't in the path of this storm. We are getting rain and really high winds now...no snow yet.

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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
147. I turned a forty years not used septic into a cistern
Going to just use it for the garden. I dug it open, pried off a slab of concrete, cleaned out some mud, pressure washed, used a bit of mortar in a hole or two. Take waterproof swimming pool paint or foundation paint and now I have a 5000 gal reservoir against drought. Good luck man.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #147
173. okay, i have to try this


what did you paint? the outside i assume? What are you using to pump the water?


Part of my long term plan is to have a free-standing "bathhouse" for people who camp out here and for summer events. it will be, by coincidence, right next to the old unused septic tank (it's about 15 years old). I'll have a rain catchment system on the bath house roof. So it can hold water for toilets/showers with a small pump going to an on demand hot water heater (hope to have some solar hot water heat and floor heat with water as well.)

Thanks for the encouragement.

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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #173
174. No, I painted the inside
We are not going to drink out of it, just garden. Right now I have a dirty water submersible that I bought at Harbor Freight for $60.00. It pumps way to fast and I am going to get a different pump this summer.

I had a cheap way to fill up my wading pool with hot water. I had a lot of hose and would lay it on black plastic. Every 20 min or so I would run it in the pool. It heated up great.

I would love on demand water. We had one in Germany in the '70's that was fantastic.

You might like to read Divine Right's Trip, it was in the first Whole Earth Catalog, by Gurney Norman.
Later R
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
175. When our whole system collapses, you're going to be sitting pretty!
:yourock:
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. So far, so good with our well
The nearby town annexed us years ago, then failed to extend water lines. Or sewer lines. The town tried to force everyone on our road to pay outrageous prices to hook up to faraway lines, but the courts ruled we didn't have to. Town didn't do its part when it should have.

Believe it or not, they still try to bill us every now and then for water we don't use. They say even though we "never connected," we are still water customers and owe them money. They always back down once we get in their face.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #55
87. Your wellwater is probably better anyway


glad you're standing up to them...what a racket, huh?

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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #87
104. Oops, below post is for you

Replied to mine instead. Haven't had my coffee yet.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #55
103. Racket's too kind a word

Good luck with your situation. Sounds like you've done your best to deal with a bad one.
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antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
59. Another part of the story of poverty in Appalachia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Appalachia's curse is its coal and timber, as Nigeria's curse is its oil, as Columbia's curse is its many natural resources. A history of deception, coercion, economic strangulation, and outright brutality including murder has resulted in the dispossession of these people from their lands and livelihoods, the dependence on jobs in the resource extraction industries that are hemorrhaging their land, health, and wealth even as they are virtually the only means of obtaining a decent livelihood; and ironically, the resultant terror of losing the jobs which are virtually the only option left.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
62. Many communities in the Navajo nation territory and many people in Pueblo and Zuni communities...
...must make a substantial regular trip to fill water containers, as they have no running water and, increasingly, no year-round reliable source of water nearby.

This problem is getting worse as the watersheds in the Southwest continue to be FUCKED WITH by developers and their politician minions.

My favorite line from the TV series "The Wire": "No, man, he's worse than a drug dealer. He's a developer."

wearily,
Bright
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. "No, man, he's worse than a drug dealer. He's a developer"


Ain't that the truth!

One dude up here has somehow managed to get approval to just destroy one of the most pristine places you can imagine. he dammed up a gorgeous waterfall to make a lake, tore out all the native laurel and dogwood and wild azalea and built a massive barn (for weddings - no amnimals allowed in it) with endangered brazilian wood for godsakes.

And he advertises it as a "pristine wilderness"

My good friends are his neighbors on a land trust and they are sick about what he's done. But NO ONE is buying his lots and he's going broke now i hear.

You have enough money you can do anything you want. I fear that this part of the Cumberland plateau will soon be like the coastal areas that lost all beach access. They are building where the animals roam and soon there won't be anything left for the poor PLUS their taxes are only going to go up.


Developers SUCK


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
63. REC. Good idea to bring this up, Tsiyu. There are a lot of us, myself included,
who haven't a clue about this. My first thought was 'why don't they drill a well?' Of course, if one is poor, the cost of a well is prohibitive.

There is at least one organization that exists that tries to bring clean water to communities that do not have it, but I think it's geared more toward international aid. This sounds like a perfect example of a role for Americorps or some other public service group to take on.

Another obstacle to drilling a well is that some locations have polluted aquifers.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. I used to have no idea either


So i try to be patient with people who never saw this side of things.

I'm glad you found this helpful. it's embarrassing to admit so the poor stay silent.

I understand so much more than i once did.

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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
67. If you live in a rural area, a lot of rural folks have septic tanks. You don't?
Why not?

If you don't have running water, do you have a well?

If you don't have either of those things, were you born and raised in that location? Is there some reason you didn't move away, since it seems to be way out in the boonies where public services aren't present?

I can see why there would be some areas where it's not practical to have municipal services. One reason being there aren't enough people with money (taxes) to pay for it.

Not being critical. I really want to know how it is that you ended up in an area without municipal services.

But yes, I would believe there are areas in the U.S. without such services. Every area in this large country can't (and shouldn't) be filled with sewerage plants and pipes. There are beautiful areas in large parts of the U.S. where people live in order to get away from other people, so they won't have the facilities that areas with people have. And that's how some of them want it, but unfortunately, others have to accept. But once youngsters grow up, they usually move away (that's how those sparsely populated areas stay so sparsely populated).

There's probably also little employment there, if there are so few people and services.

I'm from the deep south. My grandparents were "from the sticks," as they'd say. No munipal services, because they didn't live in a municipality. I've always known that's how it is in the sticks. (My ex and I used to call that primitive camping, but I wouldn't want to live that way.)
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. This is glorified camping
for sure.

i do have a septic tank that is hooked to the toilet and another one that is unused above the pumphouse.

The toilet is gravity flush, just pour water and voila!

Gray water is diverted to garden.

No, I did not grow up here. I have not always lived like this. I grew up lower middle class, when i split with the last hubby we had a seven bedroom two kitchen log home on 17 acres.

But it was in the outskirts of Atlanta which I could not bear anymore, due to the Rightwingers and fundies and racists and woman-haters in my area.

i researched the closest state (to be close to my kids) that was not alabama, florida or s carolina and that was TN. I researched land prices and political demographics. I chose this place because

A) They voted for the Democrat in presidential elections (Gore and Kerry both won in the county I originally lived in about 20 miles away. Sadly, Obama got slightly less than half the vote)

B) The flatlander real estate agents told me they wouldn't come up here and advised that I shouldn't come up here becuase they were all druggies and car thieves and "no one will talk to you." At that point I was in fullblown shot out PTSD and I said to myself. "Good! I don't want to talk to anybody anyway!"

I bought a 37 acre farm, house, two barns, but after losing a really great job in nashville post 911, I could not keep up the mortgage and traded my equity for this land and mobile home and some cash. I liked the idea of no rent or mortgage and still do.

I love this place; I love the people; I have more true friends than at any time in my life; there is always something to do - for free; lots of musicians to jam with, and some of the most beautiful country you will ever want to see.

I may not live here forever. I flirt with the idea of a nonprofit to help here, and will try to keep this land because this place means a lot to three of my six kids. I can't really explain it; you have to live here a while to get it.

There are few jobs. I make my own way, one steady client for my freelance biz and others from time to time. A great local biz called me for an interview this week, though I am writing now and hope to get some stuff sold again. I've sold veggies, artwork, played music for money, sold writing, sold some scrub timber that was a fire hazard, and have done a lot of chef work all over this Mountain.

Most people could not live this way. i absolutely WILL not let any of my relatives visit me here; they would be appalled, and demand i leave here.

but I can saddle up one of my mares (btw, you can't give a horse away these days due to feed costs and I love mine like children and they feed me :) ) and ride through the woods and ride to town on backroads and I am just steps away from so much natural beauty, the old place I live in does not matter one bit in my scheme.

Now i have gone on too long but hope i answered your questions. This writing of mine sucks but thanks for checking in :hi:
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
144. you just described the hills where i live in the south of france

"I love this place; I love the people; I have more true friends than at any time in my life; there is always something to do - for free; lots of musicians to jam with, and some of the most beautiful country you will ever want to see."

my friends tend to be middle class or poor, the middle class ones can live in town or what not in an apartment, but the poor ones get a bit of land and build their own houses, literally, i have one buddy and him and the neighbors are like the smurf village, lots of musicians, hippies, music is in the air many nights a week, i go over with home made cakes, they make up a stew for dinner, another friend who lives in an rv may stop by with some food or drink to share, and our retired architect friend brings his guitar up from town and the music is so cool, and the best is that these people all come from wales or england so we speak the same language....

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
145. wtf???
"i absolutely WILL not let any of my relatives visit me here; they would be appalled, and demand i leave here."
what in the hell kind of family do you come from? you are so unlucky to come from such a judgemental family. you are a winner, you beat capitalism, you get by with MINIMAL WORK! you should be PROUD of that FUCK THE OTHERS STUCK IN THE RAT RACE AND THEIR JUDGEMENTS!
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #145
159. This post made me laugh...in a good way


And I have worked pretty hard, actually. Just can't do it as much anymore due to physical issues, but I sure try.


My family isn't judgmental at all; they just want everyone in the family to live a "good life."

They have never understood my desire to spend most of my time in the woods, in nature. I have been that way since I was a child. So now I live in the woods.

I have been to the Big City. Attended a wedding in Greenwich, CT a year or so back. I like to dress up and have fun, and I love NYC and Amsterdam and London - been to all three and should be visiting NYC this summmer - but I have never wanted to live in the city or the suburbs.

I don't care what a dwelling looks like. My head turns over what i see growing in someone's garden.

My family is different, and they would be hurt, so I go visit them. I don't force my lifestyle on anyone. I only mourn when they are sick and unhappy and stressed out and fighting among themselves.




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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #159
176. Amsterdam is a nice city
they have nice little coffeeshops, but they are pricy.....

it is a pity that your family cannot understand your way of living, you worked hard early on, saved up enough to have your little paradise in the woods and live the good life. some people just cannot appreciate smoking a fatty and watching the sun set behind the hills then pulling out the acoustic guitar and jamming with friends, others of us love that way of life.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
146. I can do the same on a mountain bike
"but I can saddle up one of my mares (btw, you can't give a horse away these days due to feed costs and I love mine like children and they feed me ) and ride through the woods and ride to town on backroads and I am just steps away from so much natural beauty, the old place I live in does not matter one bit in my scheme." and i do it too, i drive to work when i go, but i often ride my bike to visit friends
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
71. I've lived without water for a couple of years
Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 10:29 PM by hfojvt
it is not the worst thing in the world. The first time I did it, in 1986, I really missed being able to take showers. However, even if I had water, I would not have been able to take a shower, because I had neither a water heater, nor central heat. I had a wood stove that was not very reliable heat. It sorta heated one room, but I had to keep my milk in the non-working refrigerator to keep it from freezing. On a cold night I could not put enough wood on the fire to make it all the way through the night. So the fire would go out before I woke up. There was a spring 1/4 mile down the hill though, so I always had water.

I lived without hot water for another year, 1991, and so I was washing my hair in the sink, and also taking advantage of the indoor pool at the community center. For $1 or $2 admission, you get a hot shower, and a swim.

Then in 2003, I got mad at the water department and thus shut my water off for a year. Once again, I could take a shower at work and bring home a few jugs of water home too. Even last summer I shut the gas off again after my thermocouple went out on my water heater and thus did not have hot water all summer.

I don't think of it as a huge hardship.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
73. Thanks for posting this, Tsiyu.
Like some others here, this isn't something I'd considered. Oh, I know that some people live without any of the modern conveniences I take for granted like electricity and running water, but I didn't know it's that widespread. I'm in awe of your resiliency!

When I moved into my house, I was very happy to learn that there were 5 houses on one well. People think I'm nuts and I should want my very own well. Um, no. I knew if something went wrong with the well, it could potentially be thousands to fix it (like a new pump at about $1500). We don't have an association or anything so we just got together informally and decided to contribute monthly to the well fund to (a) pay for the pump electricity and (b) build up funds in the event something happens with the well. We each contribute $15/month, which I can afford. I'm reassured knowing that if there's a problem, we'll be able to take care of it thanks to foresight and having 5 houses on the well!

My heart goes out to you and all in your situation. Feel free to head over to the Asheville area if you want a vacation with real showers & hot water! (I guess that's not realistic with the cost of gas these days, but the offer is there. Then again, if you're just over the TN border.....)


:hi:


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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Thanks for the invite tpsbmam!


I saw the most awesome outdoor production of Macbeth in Asheville last fall with a very dear person i know. Lots of very cool places there for sure.

My mom wants to move to N carolina (out of Atlanta), so maybe I'll be coming through soon if my dad goes for it :)

:hug:


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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-01-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. You have a bed and a shower if you do head this way!


:toast:

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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
80. Was surprised CSI LV actually had an episode on fracking
Surprised the heck out of me. Lets go light some water on fire..
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
82. K&R. (nt)
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
83. K&R n/t
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
84. K&R # 101
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
85. K&R and
:hug:
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
86. Thank you for this post.
You taught me something today. I had no idea that there were Americans, besides the homeless, who had no access to clean water. I guess I'm still a little naive about the true America :(
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. and thank you and everyone who posted here


I didn't know these things either until i lived them. I feel my 11 years here have been the best education I could have received.

and I have enough stories to write about for the rest of my life
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
88. Thank you
K&R


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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
90. A huge K&R, and thank you!!!

Thank you for taking the time to provide invaluable information.

Bless you....

:yourock:

:hug:

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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
91. I have experienced it firsthand.
I wonder if any of the corporate "persons" have this problem?
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #91
100. The corporateniks probably say to each other:
"Let them drink Perrier"
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
92. wow, I had no idea...
thanks for this.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
93. I spent my early years in a coal camp.
The running water was in the creek behind the house. You didn't turn the kitchen stove on, you built a fire in it. We had three rooms and a path.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
94. I know this is kinda irrelevant but at the same time it does go along with the gist of the story
but as a kid who was born in march of '48 to a poor white family I've lived being poor, dirt poor. We didn't have electrical power in our community until '54 or '55 and we didn't have running water until '61 and it came from our well.
My neighbors drink untreated well water to this day. I'm sure if I was to drink some of their water I'd have the trots for days but they seem to have built a resistance to that water. We're out here where we all have septic systems too. I've got a well on our property but we don't use the water for anything. I had the water from our well tested and it was safe to leave in the ground only and it might be a hundred yards from my neighbors well and about as deep. I'm afraid to use it on my garden even.
The thing is they drink from their well even though we have good treated rural water with a line that is closer to their house than their well is. some people just don't understand or don't care, either way its not smart. It cost us on average about a buck a day for our water and we have a pool and we raise a garden using our treated water for both.

We have all these poor people who don't have safe water to drink nor a safe way to dispose of their waste but we have a few hundred outrageously rich individuals who are raking the money in hand over fist. For the life of me I can't understand how those few rich bastids live with themselves

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
95. Thanks for posting, none of this is necessary..that is the CRIME imo,
We are fully capable as a government to provide at the very least the most basic means
for people to live with safe water, plumbing etc.

I am so sorry this is your reality.

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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
96. Staggering Poverty on Indian Reservations, one of the many faces of poverty in America Today
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/interestingfacts.html

Of all ethnic groups in the United States, Native People are the most economically disadvantaged, 22% live below the poverty level, nearly double the national rate of 12.4%.
Seven of the ten poorest counties in the United States fall within various "Indian reservations." Of these seven poorest counties, three are on the reservations within the borders of the state of South Dakota, home to many of the Lakota people.
Over the the last forty years, Shannon County in South Dakota, has been our country's most poverty stricken county. Shannon county is comprised of The Pine Ridge Reservation.
Pine Ridge has the nation's lowest per capita income, the highest percentage of families below the poverty rate, the highest percentage (63.1%) of persons below the poverty level, and the second highest percentage of children below the poverty level.
Indian Health Services reports suicide rates that are triple that of the national average.
Harvard School of Public Health reports that the life expectancy of Lakota People living on Pine Ridge Reservation to be the lowest in the United States, and only in Haiti is the life expectancy lower than the Lakota of Pine Ridge in the entire Western Hemisphere.
The average life expectancy of a man on Pine Ridge is 61, 16 and 1/2 years lower than the national average. At 70 years of age the life expectancy of a Lakota woman on Pine Ridge is 13 and 1/2 years less than the national average.
Unemployment on Pine Ridge Reservation ranges between 80% and 95% of the population of about 22,000 people.
The average household occupancy on Pine Ridge is 17 people. There are over 900 families on waiting lists for housing. Many of those fortunate enough to have a house live in sub-standard structures.
Thirty-three percent of homes do not have electricity or running water. Twenty-two percent of all homes are in need of major repairs or need to be replaced.
Seventy percent of Lakota people living on Pine Ridge Reservation do not have access to transportation.
Nationally, telephone service reaches 98% of the populace. On reservations phone service only reaches between 46% and 55% of Native people. On the Pine Ridge Reservation more than 70% of the homes are without phone service.
Native People are victimized by violent crime at a rate that is more than twice the national average. Approximately 70% of these violent crimes against Native People are committed by people of a different race. This cross-race victimization rate of Native People is substantially higher than black or white victims.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
97. I didn't think there WERE that many teabaggers!
Seriously, though, I know what it is like (short-term). Our water company doesn't send out shutoff notices. They just show up and turn it off. They CLAIM they send out notices, but I've never received one. I've let it go a bit too long a few times and off goes the water - usually on a Friday afternoon. Fortunately, we keep jugs of distilled water around for fish and hermit crab purposes so we've always had at least some drinking water until they turn it back on. The REAL bitch is the toilet. We discovered that if you pour a gallon into the bowl (quickly), it will force a flush. There's a machine outside one of the grocery stores that will dispense a gallon of "filtered" water for a quarter (bring your own jug), so it doesn't cost that much to keep flushability. But it IS a royal pain in the ass. I really can't imagine dealing with that on a regular basis.

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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #97
108. distilled water is not good for fish unless you are REALLY aerating it good.
and readjusting pH and mineral content for species requirements.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. You have to do that anyway, but it does eliminate the tap water problem.
I still use the treatment drops, but there isn't the chlorine/chloramine and other contaminant issue involved with tap water.

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duhneece Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
98. I, too, have no running water & use an outhouse
I live in southern New Mexico, lost my mobile home 10 years ago (long story) & live in a primitive dwelling. I've had plans/hopes to improve my living conditions for years, but haven't been able to. I just turned 60 & am not sure what's going to happen...but that part is true for EVERYONE!
I love where I live and am trying to get a business (romantic?) partner, investor or housemate...maybe one who can help me develop a mineral bath/hot tub business.

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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
99. Thank you for bringing this to light. My parents were both born and raised in
western Md, the very tip of Appalachian country. They were not as bad off as some people, but they did/do have relatives who live in the heart of it all. We visited them when I was a child, I still remember the utter despair in the people's eyes. :hug: :cry:
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Buddha2B Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
102. Do people use Rain Water Tanks in USA?
Slightly off topic: Rain Water Tanks are very popular here in Australia, Especially remote/rural areas.

Is there many personal rain water tanks installed?
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #102
157. Quite a few people have cisterns and other rain catchment


I know in the more arid states in the SW, there is more interest. I've seen some systems out there that are phenomenal.

There's a guy who does systems up here, but he charges quite a bit compared to do-it-yourself.

We have abundant natural water/rainfall here. It's just that many people need help getting either hooked to the system or having their individual systems made functional.

There is a water system in place but pipes are not run out to every backroad and cove (the name for hollows or "hollers" here.) It's your responsibility to run the pipe where there is none, and trenching and running that much pipe is very cost prohibitive and often destructive in terms of the ecosystem.


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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
105. Nevermind. n/t
Edited on Wed Feb-02-11 10:35 AM by wisteria
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
109. ha - we are there today
got down to 11 degrees this morning. water was still flowing when kid left for work at 6, but its froze up now! JUST starting to drip so hopefully will have it again soon, although temp outside is still 24.3.

Hope nothing broke, tonight forecast to go down to 9 - pretty freaking cold for this area.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #109
150. Wishing you the best


Hope you have it unfroze...

I know I'm glad the power was back on, even tho' I ain't a foolish virgin!

I had my lamp oil ready...and hunkered down in the covers with the cats at my feet.

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FreeStateDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
112. The lack of compassion by some local governments is disgusting.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
113. This is crazy ....
:mad:

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
114. Since this thread is getting long and i can't reply to all


Gotta go runhelp some folks sell some scrap metal (metal prices are good right now so the good news is many junk cars are being hauled off- if any of you are broke and have metal, sell it).

I want to thank everyone for posting here, even the negative ones because you highlight the problem.

One thing though: some adults on this thread have said "it's not so bad to not have water."

True, if you're an adult on your own.

But imagine the children who live without enough water? What is it like to go to school with dirty hair and dirty clothes and not having been able to bathe? How does this further stigmatize these poor kids?

You may be fine living that way as a grownup, but have a little heart for the little ones, could you?

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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. Sorry to disagree with you but it IS bad to live without a source of clean water
and anyone who says otherwise is justifying the continuation of the problem here and abroad. For one thing, the massive implementation of indoor plumbing and other modern water sanitation in the 20th century represented a leap forward in public health. Children and adults were less likely to contract water and waste borne illnesses.

Another reason why promoting equal access to clean water and modern plumbing is important to society is that it frees up time for other productive tasks. As you well know, being poor is a time-sucking job and a half. That's time taken away from tasks like seeking and keeping paying jobs or acquiring the education and skills trained to make one qualified for some jobs.

Ultimately reducing poverty improves the country overall by creating more productive workers. That's what's in it for EVERYONE.


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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #122
156. I live it, Gormy Cuss


I know what no running water means.

But many people all over the planet are without it.

So we find posters who have said "I've done it. It's not so bad." on this thread.

Because if someone has "done it" then they feel qualified to speak for everyone else who has done it or might do it in the future. And what they mean by, It's not that bad is:

Quit your bitching; everyone has troubles.

Toughen up!

What are you, special?

No one owes you running water

I must have a better work ethic than you, because I did it and I never complained.

Blah, blah, blah



There are myriad ways a person can dismiss a problem.

I was responding to one of those tactics by saying, in essence "Think of the Children." because sometimes, dear DUer, we do have to think of the children.





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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
116. EXCELLENT post, and I am delighted to see it get so many recs!
VERY good writing, and I hope you open some minds with this.

It is time!

:applause:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
126. It's quite common in the Alaska bush
for entire villages not to have water or sewer services, thus the euphemistically termed "honey buckets."

When I was a child in southwest Ohio, we also had no indoor plumbing, but we didn't think about it too much. One set of grandparents had an indoor bathroom with a flush toilet, and all of us cousins thought it was an amazing contraption. I didn't think of us as poor at the time because we had a farm, plenty of food and a roof over our heads.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
129. In CA, if you don't have running water... they take your kids away...
Nice, huh?

I drive through "The Jungle" every day on my way home from work... I purposely drive through that section of Downtown when I leave the glass and steel tower... just to remind myself how good I have it... and to drop off leftovers from corporate lunches. There's something satisfying knowing where that food comes from. All you have to do is pull over and lift a bag... the people will come. They freak out a little if you touch them.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
130. I taught in Deep South, so I know this to be true.
I've had students whose families used water from wells because they had no indoor running water.

Most people have no idea of the poverty in some rural areas of South because it's never discussed nationally.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
132. k/r --
Thanks for trying to let us know --

be back to try to actually read all of it --

:)
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
134. i have a friend in rual montana
who has no running water in his cabin either

there is a spring he can drink from, he takes creek water into a black plastic sac heated in the sun to shower, in the winter you melt snow and "bathe" with a wet washrag and pot of hot water, the outhouse is fucking cold too
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
136. There are many living in little cabins in the mountains of the west without water.
I know a few of them.

Two women I know are in that situation because it was the only housing they could find.... small cabins on someone else's land, and they let them live there.

Without the cabins without water, they would be as homeless as I am.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #136
160. Trying to catch up on posts


And wanted to respond to you before i get to some chores...

We don't have anyone without shelter here due to the fact that there isn't much zoning, so people can have a little land and live in whatever housing the can put together - camper, bus, tent - and work their way up to a house.

Families will let other family members live on land as well.

You don't let people sleep in the streets here, i can say that

There is definitely affordable housing, just not what some people would consider for themselves.

Because they've never lost it all, most Americans just can't imagine how other people live...





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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #160
164. And that is the KEY.... LAND. As a friend said years ago, "We're fresh out of beaver pelts".
In other words, no frontier to start with nothing. "I owe my soul to the company store".

And I agree with your plea.... have some compassion for the children... PLUS, those who are physically not able to work so hard just for what others take for granted.

It sounds like you have found some peace, and I am glad for that. I envy that, but I wouldn't have the physical ability to make it work. I have dreamed of building my own adobe house, mud brick by mud brick, but I can't physically do it. There are so many like me, and we are forgotten.

:pals:

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #164
166. I hear you


It boggles my mind that we have any homeless when we have an 11% vacant home inventory.

You should not have to worry about housing. No one who is disabled should worry, whether we have plenty of empty houses or not.

People argue over many issues here, but the right to a roof over a person's head in this wealthy nation should not be something we ever dispute.

The answers are right in front of us, but too many people want to discuss Sarah Palin's kids or Boehner's affairs .....ad infinitum...

And when the subject of poverty does come up, it sems Duers come out of the woodwork to completely derail the discussion...






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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #166
167. In theory, DUers agree with you that nobody in the richest country should be without a home.

But when it comes down to it, they buy into the blaming the victim, they don't want to hear the actual facts, and, yes, you are right....they derail to their hearts content. This is all the province of shrinks, me thinks. ^_^

You have done very well, here, to bring one small part of the picture to light. I salute you, and hhope you continue along this path. What you have done here is so important!

I don't know if you saw this response of mine, or if it fits at all, but I thought it was worth seeing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Be very good to yourself... you are doing some very good things here! :pals:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-03-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #167
169. Thanks for your encouragement


It's just a keep on, keepin' on thing...chip away the false pretense bit by bit and get to the guts of it.

Your pictures of the homeless were tragic and I wish you would do a weekly thread of pictures. Seriously.

Thank you for all of your responses here. I read them all and I appreciate your input.

Please stay warm out there. :donut:



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TheMightyFavog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
137. ladies and gentleman, Mr. Lewis Black...
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-02-11 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
138. Thanks for the reality post, K&R
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