Atheists edge out Christians in free-speech battle

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Atheists edge out Christians in free-speech battle

Atheists edge out Christians in free-speech battle

By Robert McCartney
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 16, 2010

In ancient Rome, the contest was Christians vs. lions. In Loudoun County today, it's Christians vs. atheists.

This year, the atheists came out on top.
....

The atheists ended up with six out of 10 positions on the lawn, including the most visible location at King and Market streets. A weather-beaten Nativity scene has filled that spot for at least four decades. This year, it'll be occupied instead by a banner reading, "Celebrating our Constitution: Keeping Church and State Separate since 1787."
....

"I don't call it a circus. I call it a free speech forum," said County Supervisor Eugene A. Delgaudio (R-Sterling), a local Christian conservative leader.
....

For their part, Christians object that several of the atheists' signs go too far in criticizing religion. One up now says, "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

"They have a right to have their displays, but not to mock our Christian displays," said Don Phillips, a Knights of Columbus leader who put up the Christmas tree. "It's disrespectful to do so."

[Angry Dragon]

1. a Knights of Columbus leader who put up the Christmas tree

don't they mean the PAGAN tree??

They stole it from the Pagans .........

[beam me up scottie]

2. What part of the Constitution bans mockery of christian displays?

Somebody call the whaaaambulance.

[Matariki]

7. I don't think he was saying that.

He gave a clear example - and I agree with him on this. I'm not a Christian, but I don't think it's respectful of other people's beliefs to put up signs like this: "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.

On the other hand I applaud and agree whole heartedly with this: "Celebrating our Constitution: Keeping Church and State Separate since 1787."

It seems to me that Atheists could define their beliefs and express them in public forums without being disrespectful of other people's beliefs.

[beam me up scottie]

12. So you believe we should voluntarily limit our freedom of speech?

Have you ever been to a Gay Pride celebration?

We don't have to respect religious beliefs, nor should we. That's kind of the point.

[DragonSlave]

23. It'd be nice if these Atheists made philosophically defensible statements

"Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

"Religion is a myth"
-Its actually a mythology, but then so is science.
"...superstition"
-Superstition comes from the magical system which was marginalized by organized religions
"...hardens hearts"
-If it gives me resolve then I guess it does serve a useful purpose
"enslaves minds"
-How is a Christian less free than an atheist? They both seem to have their own distinct freedoms.

[beam me up scottie]

26. It would be even nicer if you could explain why you think science is a mythology.

Man, this gets better and better.

*runs off to make more popcorn*

[DragonSlave]

31. I won't pretend that I can precisely define mythology or myth, but...

One might say that a specific story within a specific religion was a myth, such as the book of Genesis. But since there's a collection of disjoint stories, theology, etc, it really isn't just a single myth, so it is a mythology. It is a system with a lot of rules attached to it.

Science is another example. Its myths are papers, experiments, peer reviewed articles. That sort of thing. The point is that it is the same kind of thing.

Now the thing I'm doing here is avoiding circular logic. Since science is the pathway to truth, I can't use that same truth as proof of the power of science.

[beam me up scottie]

36. So mythology is "a system with a lot of rules attached to it".

And that's also your definition of science.

And you think you're avoiding logical fallacies.

wow.

Dude I don't think should be left alone in the same room with science.

[CJvR]

40. No they are not.

The drug induced halucinations of bronze age goat herders, or wherever a particular religion comes from, is as far from science as it is possible to come.

[Kalyke]

28. You're missing the point.

No - you don't have respect anyone's religious beliefs, but it's far more harmonious to point out the separation of Church and State WITHOUT snidely mocking someone's beliefs.

And, yes, we SHOULD voluntarily limit our freedom of speech on such volatile issues - we do it all the time in our daily lives, for Pete's sake. For example, a customer may be the biggest asshole in the world, but you smile and put up with him/her because he/she is gonna purchase your product, but probably wouldn't if you called him/her an asshole.

When you start mocking someone's beliefs, they stop listening to you, making any point you're trying to make moot.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Harmonious? What country do you live in?

Do you really think well behaved minorities are rewarded with equal rights and protection?

[Matariki]

38. +1. Just the point I was trying to make.

It's a lot more civil to point out separation of Church and State - or simply say "I don't believe in God" than it is to say "what you believe in is stupid".

I certainly wouldn't advocate legally forcing civility, but I will suggest it as the better way to communicate and coexist with people.

[Matariki]

37. Of course not. I said that attacking other's beliefs is disrespectful.

There's a difference. I'm a member of the ACLU and share their core values - that everyone has the right to free speech - even people I vehemently disagree with.

And equally, I'm free to express what I think of that speech. In the case of the first example I quoted, I find it very disrespectful. I also think that if the only way a person can express their own beliefs is by ridiculing someone else's that their philosophy is pretty unsophisticated and not well thought out.

[beam me up scottie]

39. If your believe that sign is "very disrespectful" then you've lived a very privileged life, imho.

Especially compared to the way christians express their beliefs about gay people.

[Matariki]

42. Pulling random stuff out of your ass and throwing it into the conversation isn't helping your point.

It's disrepectful to tell someone their spiritual or religious beliefs are stupid, even if that's what you think. If you can't grasp a simple fact like that, you aren't someone I'd want to know. End of conversation.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Like the respectful way you're expressing yourself right now?

Do tell.

:rofl:

You really should read what the founding fathers had to say about religious myth and superstition, why it's positively scandalous! :wow:

[YankeyMCC]

3. Mr Phillips' quote I think points out why Conservatives like to say

"Freedom isn't free"

I think because their idea of "freedom" is that is Must be defined by them so they're constantly have to fight, work to get everyone to conform.

[Edweird]

4. All mocking does is elicit cries of "militant atheist" and and incite those who would 'save my soul'

I'm not interested in a 'holy war' with the believers - I do my own thing and keep to myself. I see no benefit from this. I deal with each 'bleever' as an individual. I give each one the opportunity to decide what type of relationship we have. The bus ads and billboards, to me, are 'starting shit'. I don't 'start shit'. I wish they would knock it off.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Yeah! Who do those goddamn uppity atheists think they are, American citizens or something?

Back of the bus!

[Edweird]

11. What do you see this accomplishing?

[beam me up scottie]

14. Me? Hey I'm just glad they're not allowed to burn us at the stake anymore.

I'm ever so grateful for the little things.

[Edweird]

16. Was that accomplished by an antagonistic billboard or bus ad?

[beam me up scottie]

18. No, that was accomplished by a lot of uppity atheists and their theist brothers and sisters.

Who refused to shut up and sit down.

[Edweird]

22. I think it's better to choose your battles than run around flipping everyone the 'bird'.

[backscatter712]

9. I'm with the "New Atheists" on this one.

Religion should be directly confronted on its demands we believe in Bronze Age superstitions.

And it should be confronted on its demands that we base life-or-death policies on the alleged words of imaginary deities.

[Edweird]

13. That sounds like 'militant atheism' to me.

I'm a lifelong atheist and I'm against militant atheism.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Define "militant atheism".

:popcorn:

[backscatter712]

17. Exactly. "Militant" is defined by theists as speaking out and putting up billboards.

Meanwhile, Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of virtually every other major religion have pointed guns at people, tortured them, or had them thrown in prison because they didn't believe in their invisible sky-daddy, or believed in the wrong invisible sky-daddy.

Yet, Atheists who do nothing more than state their opinions in public and call for a real debate, get called "militant."

[Edweird]

19. 1) Antagonistic billboards are not 'calling for debate'.

2) Faith is not something you can 'debate' by it's very definition.

As long as it ends where I begin, I don't give 2 shits what dumbfuckery anyone else believes.

[beam me up scottie]

21. I never did know my place.

I blame my parents.

[fifthoffive]

43. Exactly

If certain people would stop maintaining that we need to base legislation on the bible, there would be no need for confrontation. When people use "In God We Trust" and "under God" as proof that the US is a "Christian" nation, it's time to fight back before we allow this nation to become exactly that. If I wanted to live in a theocracy, there are plenty to choose from.

[TexasObserver]

6. recommend

[tritsofme]

8. Very childish.

These athiests certainly have the right to act like 3 year olds, but I doubt they are doing much good for their cause.

[Xicano]

24. I find what atheists are doing to be far less negative than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UhTe_ID8K4



From the above video clip:

"We have a philistine in Washington that is aided by the powers of darkness, he stands just as much, every much a type of goliath as goliath stood when he mocked the children of Israel. There is a spirit of the Anti-Christ in Washington that is trying to strip away the freedoms of this nation. That is trying to take our right to stand up and preach.."

-snip-

I don't care what the supreme court says, I don't care what the ACLU has to say, I don't care what the goliath in the White House has to say as long as I got breath to breathe I'm a gonna preach that Jesus Christ is the only way, and Islam is not a good religion its a demonic, despotic, no hell, no good religion from the (inaudible).

-snip-

We've got a cause to fight for and to stand for and not back-down one iota. If the powers at be have its way with legislation that is partially already been passed what we teach and preach over sun-life radio would become against the law. It will become against the law to tell the homosexual that he wasn't born that way, that he's under the curse of sin but Jesus Christ can save him and set him free.

[tritsofme]

25. That guy sounds like an asshole too.

What is your point exactly?

[Xicano]

29. I already stated my point.

"I find what atheists are doing to be far less negative than this"

Where the word "this" of course is referring to the example the video clip illustrates.

[tritsofme]

33. Ok then...I guess I just don't see how one is related to the other, or to this thread.

I'm sure we could all go searching for random videos we find offensive. We've all seen the wacky Christians.

But thanks for proving that all sorts of people can be childish assholes, I guess.

[backscatter712]

10. BOOYAH!!!

Eventually, the public will be desensitized to the concept that some people just don't believe in imaginary sky-daddies.

We will push through the demonization and dishonest mischaracterization that religious people have resorted to in order to keep atheists in the closet.

That's why we're doing this.

[Ezlivin]

20. +1

Damned right.

People are completely ignorant of history. Atheists used to be tortured and killed regularly by religious officials.

Now that there is sufficient liberty for atheists to speak their minds the religionists are alarmed.

If religious teachings were discussed in an open forum they would sound utterly ludicrous. The internet is helping people "see the light" in new ways. Atheists realize that they are not alone, that there are millions of others out there and now they are coming awake.

[Kalyke]

32. "Imaginary sky-daddies."

:eyes:

More mockery of religion by the hell-bound class.

And if you don't understand why I just wrote what I wrote, then you're obviously missing the point.

Edweird, for example, is attempting to tell you jackasses that your mocking Christians (or Jews or Muslims or whomever) is antagonistic and in no way helps your cause.

I don't give a flying shit if you don't believe in a deity and you shouldn't give a crap if someone believes in God. By mockingly using the phrase "sky daddy," you only show me that you care too much about someone else's business.

[beam me up scottie]

41. Our cause is freedom of speech and religion.

Like the right of a hypocrite to call atheists names because they don't like how the atheists are expressing themselves.

:rofl:

[lynne]

27. I think every faith - or non-faith - should have the opportunity to express

their beliefs and am glad to see that Loudoun County is allowing exactly that. However, I do think it in bad form for any one tenet to mock or ridicule the other in doing so. It's not necessary and it certainly doesn't win friends or influence people.

[Bill McBlueState]

30. I don't think this should be declared as a win for atheists

because they got a slim majority of the lawn displays.

Rather, it's a win for free speech. People get to see different ideas side by side, they get to see that nothing bad is actually happening as a result, and those with minority viewpoints don't feel so ostracized. Everyone wins.

[Xicano]

35. "It's time to stomp out atheists in America."

Remember this piece of garbage? I'll say it again. What I see atheists doing now is responding to and standing up against years and years of persecution and intolerance. To me that is the embodiment of the American spirit - unapologetic resistance against that kind of crap.






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My response to that crap: