Exclusive: US empire could collapse at any time, Pulitzer winner tells Raw Story

[Donnachaidh]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/untitled-chris-hedges-interview/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

America's military and economic empire could collapse at any time, but predicting the precise day, week or month of its potential demise is unattainable, according to a former New York Times war correspondent who spoke with Raw Story.

"The when and how is very dangerous to predict because there's always some factor that blindsides you that you didn't expect," Pulitzer-winning journalist Chris Hedges said in an exclusive interview. "It doesn't look good. But exactly how it plays out and when it plays out, having covered disintegrating societies, it's impossible to tell."

He explained that he learned this lesson as events unfolded around him in the fall of 1989. Then, members of the opposition to the Soviet Empire told him that they predicted travel across the Berlin Wall separating East from West Germany would open within the year.

"Within a few hours, the wall didn't exist," he said.

Hedges was one of roughly 135 activists who participated in an act of civil disobedience that resulted in their arrests outside the White House yesterday, even as Obama was unveiling a new report on progress of the war in Afghanistan.

More at the link --

[Ozymanithrax]

1. I wonder if he reads DU. n/t

[TheWraith]

More likely he reads the Psychic Hotline Handbook. He uses their methods, afterall.

Make big, flashy predictions that are impossible to falsify in order to get attention, then run off and find another flashy prediction to make while your first one completely fails to come true. This guy belongs in the same list with Kunstler, stock market predictors, and the guys who make their living as cable news analysts.

[ananda]

2. It is in the process of collapsing.

It's been pretty steady lately.

[femrap]

42. This latest Tax Cut for the Rich

is pretty much the last nail in the coffin. The rich have taken everything they can get their grubby hands on....

Watch food prices jump...up 1% (that 12% annualized) for last month.

WASF. The decline of the empire will speed up...all we need is a drought/flood/earthquake to push us into the abyss.

Shit.

[truth2power]

60. I'd recommend getting your hands on Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia"...

Especially read the chapter called "The Trillion Dollar Band-Aid" about the author's take on health care reform.

In any other context, what Obama did would be called fraud perpetrated on the American people. That's not considered polite, though. So, I don't know how to describe it. I've run out of euphemisms.

[sirthomas66]

61. It's getting valid enough, I don't see why you have to not speak

your mind. We end up sleeping under freeway overpasses when we can't work, they'll be no place to plug in the puter, or anyone on the other end except rich people.

[defendandprotect]

66. Let's not be shy... Obama has fostered corporate crime ... from bailouts to "preserving" privated

health care which Rahm bragged about telling the business community to

be "grateful."

PLUS billions in business contracts from the stimulus --

And new trade agreements coming up --

on and on --

[truth2power]

81. Thanks to both posters for the reply. I don't at all mean to be shy, but

I posted a couple days ago that I thought the Obama administration was a criminal enterprise and my post got deleted. It's all in how you say it. "fostered corporate crime" works for me.

Now, lest this also be deleted, I'd like to ask an honest question. I really would welcome a response from someone:

Re: the pressuring the govt of Spain about prosecuting war crimes...If a friend of mine was indicted and I went to my county prosecutor and tried to twist his arm or otherwise force him to drop the charges, do you think I would be arrested and charged with a crime? Most certainly!

So, whatever functionary went to the Spanish govt. with some sort of missive saying to quash the investigation, on whose say-so was that demand made? Does anyone think it was that Michelle Obama's hairdresser was annoyed? No, it had to come from the highest echelons of the US govt., otherwise the Spanish courts would have consigned it to the round file.

Is that not also a criminal act, then? Perhaps not in international law. But are we not allowed to call out "the peoples" government for a breach of the law? I welcome responses from international law scholars.

[defendandprotect]

87. You've made a great point --

Re: the pressuring the govt of Spain about prosecuting war crimes...If a friend of mine was indicted and I went to my county prosecutor and tried to twist his arm or otherwise force him to drop the charges, do you think I would be arrested and charged with a crime? Most certainly

I'm with you -- and think most of us aren't getting as far along in thinking about this as you have.

Keep tellin' it -- !!


:)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

162. Cheney

[Amonester]

212. The answer is, it's not 'the peoples' government any more.

The government for the people by the people has been replaced by the government for the Rich by the Rich.

But the semblance of the former has been retained, for obvious reasons.

Just look around and you will see.

[femrap]

122. If Matt wrote it....

I'll get my hands on it.....thx.

Polite is over....Truth is what counts.

[AC_Mem]

124. Food Prices!

I've been watching this for a couple months. I am a HUGE coupon shopper (I cover at least 32% of my food bill with coupons). I plan my entire household menu around sales, coupons and finding the deals. I can tell you within pennies what items in my store cost.

Prices are going up. A simple example is butter - I used to get it for about $2.39 for a pound, now it is $2.99. The rise in the prices has gotten my attention to the point where I have thought about speaking to the store manager about it.

$100.00 is the new $25.00.

Annette
-- alarmed that you validated what I've been noticing for the past couple months

[Odin2005]

195. A brand of frozen pizza I get occasionally was $5 in 2004, now it's almost $8.

That's just one example I have seen. I was whining to my mom about it when she called me the other day, it's ridiculous!

[The Doctor.]

114. Wish I could disagree. Here's what I have the biggest problem with;

The corporate elite have fully programmed their ignorant wingnut base by now. Their escape plan is to point their base at the 'liberals' upon the collapse, and then make their getaway in the confusion.

This is not good.

[Enthusiast]

175. Members of the 'ignorant wingnut base'

call in to C-Span's Washington Journal each morning to tell us how it is the lazy freeloading poor people, illegal aliens and unions that are the nation's greatest problems.

I agree with you, this is not at all good.

[lonestarnot]

3. K & R!

[bananas]

4. 'A corporate coup d'état in slow motion'

From empire to corporate fascism - you're doing a heckuva a job, America!

[ladjf]

14. ... and the "slow motion" is morphing into "fast motion".

The rate at which this shift of wealth is moving is accelerating exponentially. We are nearing a point of no-return.

[AC_Mem]

125. When the sands of time

begin to run out, they appear to fall faster to the bottom of the hourglass.

Time is speeding up, consequences are happening quickly.

My family thinks I'm a bit of an alarmist and I try not to talk to them too much about this, however like you cannot un-ring a bell, we cannot "un-know" what we know.

Knowledge is power, at least we won't be completely taken off guard when the walls come tumblin down.

Annette

[ladjf]

190. Good points. The big question is, is there anything that could

be done to slow, stop or reverse the sands flow.

Remember, after all the sands of an hourglass have fallen, the hourglass is inverted to start events in a continuum. I mean by that, the scope of one hourglass is not infinite, therefore until the last relevant grain of sand has dropped there is alway a possibility that outcomes can be different than before. (Sorry to be so brief. I don't like long posts.)

[Enthusiast]

179. The point of no-return

is upon us. Outrageous claims about how social security is the source of all deficit spending is a major talking point in the media today. Another is the repeated claims that, "Wages are just too high in this country, the corporations can't compete." and "Corporate taxes in the U.S. are the highest in the world."

All these claims go unchallenged because the media is so strictly controlled.

[ladjf]

191. I totally agree with your assessment. But, I interpret your "upon us"

as meaning "about to happen" rather than it's being a done deal. If the point is about to happen, there is a slim chance that forces could stop, slow or reverse the processes.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

69. I'd call 2000 to 2010 FAST motion

:cry:

[obxhead]

101. 2000 to 2008

was the time of we don't give a fuck, we're here to screw you and do it well.

2009 to present has been the time of we still don't care, but we're going to try to make you feel good about us accelerating the process.

[Joe Bacon]

163. It won't be slow when we hit the debt ceiling in April

All hell is going to break loose when we hit the debt limit in April. The GOP will refuse to fund the government until Obama accepts Paul Ryan's plan to gut Social Security and Medicare. Which he will gladly endorse. Then we will see Obama go on TV all somber and tell us for the good of the country this has to be done to rein in spending. And we just can't bring our troops home to cut the military. Nope, that would be a sign of weakness. So "we will have to sacrifice". And our Press Whores will all sing the praises of our brave president. Enough Manchin/Nelson/Conrad types in the Senate will go along with all the Republicans to kill Social Security.

And what will happen? just watch. Evan Bayh will announce a challenge to Obama for being too far to the left. The same press whores who love seeing Social Security guttered will turn on Obama calling him a frustrated Marxist. The Bayh-Obama fight will tear the Democratic Party to pieces just like 1980 did. And Sarah Palin will win in a landslide along with more Republican senators and gerrymandered Republican congressmen.

The fix is in. FDR, Truman, JFK and LBJ all turn in their graves over Obama dismantling everything they've done...

[defendandprotect]

172. Ironically ....

will capitalism's crime wave all over the planet perhaps make other nations

more likely to want to keep US troops in their land -- or to get rid of them?

Would be nice if we saw more pushing by these countries to rid their countries

of our troops -- but wondering what we might be contributing to their economies?


We've always know the GOP were the destroyers -- however,

don't think anyone ever expected a Democratic president to do this much damage --

Sad thing is, think the country would be in more of a fight back mode if this

were a Repug president!

[Enthusiast]

183. A Republican president

could never get away with this shit. No way. Bush was attacked unmercifully for his designs on social security. TPTB have now decided on a slower but no less effective means to erode the social safety net.

[Enthusiast]

182. You probably have it nailed.

I hate to admit it. But there it is. Right in our face.

[ixion]

5. The First Rule of Empire: All Empires Decline and Fall over time

the question is not 'if', but 'when'.

[Pathwalker]

6. So, is HE panting with anticipation, too?

Or worthy of mocking? I await the fiddlers.

[cali]

12. sure. Hedges is undoubtedly a secular apocalyptic

not that "War is a force..." isn't an awfully good book- it is. Anyway, the American Empire is done. The collapse has been underway for quite some time. That's not the issue for me. I want to know if we can make the post-Empire country a livable one for the majority. So far the signs for that, aren't exactly heartening.

[tekisui]

18. I tend to agree with all of what you said.

My hope for what comes next is that there is a significant shift in the power dynamic. It is possible, though not probable.

[Pathwalker]

25. My real question is: Is this crumbling "part of a plan?"

Seems to me that this coincides with the Globalization Project, which appears to have the goal of taking the US down to 3rd world levels - or is this just an "unintended consequence" of globalization? I don't think it's just a coincidence. Am I wrong?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. No, Empires don't ever collapse, if you ask the power elites that is

And Exceptionalism is still strong in DC.

It is happening though, and careful for the troops in the field...collapse could get really dangerous to THEM as they could potentially get stuck.

Worst cases are never nice to contemplate.

[Nevernose]

67. They really DON'T collapse for the power elite: they just rebrand

What are the European middle ages -- essentially an empire of the Catholic Church -- except the Roman Empire with some cosmetic changes?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. hmm not quite

even if the Holy Roman Empire wanted to, and the crowing of the Emperor in 800 AD was supposed to do that.

It was a simulacrum of Rome, and a remembered version of Rome.

Remember, the new Holy Roman Emperor could not even read, and the original Emperors were not crowned by any religious authorities.

It was a new animal, and an empire, not quite.

For the most part the only projection of force were the Crusades and that did not go too well either.

[WCGreen]

129. Something people forget about that collapse was the black death

that swept through Europe and the Mediterranean back in around 800...

Europe fell into the dark ages because of the first plague. rome had already collapsed and the holy roman empire was an empire in name only.

Add the threat posed by the rise of Islam, people forget that Islam was strong in greece, spain, into northern Italy and you have a better picture of what claimed European civility.

Whole communities were isolated and so turned inward.

I don't think the collapse of the US would be as spectacular as most believe. I think there will be a big uptick in violence but ultimately, outside of a huge country wide natural or man made disaster, things will go along pretty much the same as they are now; is slow decay as stuff just deteriorates and there is no ability to fix it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Just one correction

the Black Death came in the 14th century, and it WAS spectacular.

It destroyed High Medieval Civilization since it challenged the main tennets of it.

A very good treatment of this is Tarnas's "The Passion of the Western Mind. The chapter on that is spectacular. It is also a high level history, so it is not detailed into regions or even cities, but looks at this from a trends perspective and cultural effects.

That said the collapse in the US could go in two radically different ways... a whimper, mostly we continue to go into the shitter, troops come home things get worst, we get a few disorders.

In my view, and it has to do with the anger and the polarization, we will see a very short, sharp and nasty civil war... with disintegration. We share this with the USSR. we are a continental empire with very distinct cultures.

We will know soon... as it is coming like a freight train. We can even see the headlight in the distance now.

[defendandprotect]

171. Interesting ....

Obviously, a lot to be understood about the impact of things like

culture - growing populations -- living conditions -- on health.

Sickness is an obvious sign of things going very wrong --


We see this in the "deterioration" of Bradley Manning in isolation --

deprived of normal human contact and stimulation -- and we see it in

deterioration of mental health of soldiers subjected to combat.


We see physical illness increasing in our own population in the last

decades as the greed of elites has increased -- and the impact of capitalism

on our environment grows. What destroys nature also destroys us.

Many stories here at DU which make clear the tragedy which comes from a lack

of medical care and a lack of preventive medical care.


Just coming back to the Medieval period for a moment -- women were the

original health care providers. Oppression of women and actual violence

against women -- the attack on women's knowledge of medicine/plants -- the

movement from females as midwives to males taking over medicine and even

childbirth -- must all be considered. Women have often responded to the

outbreak of this illness asking ... "Where were the cats?"

An obvious pointing to the war on women -- the witchhunts --

A lot to be understood about all of this -- of which I know very litle.


Native Americans really had no economy to be destroyed -- their well-being

didn't rise and fall with "crashes" -- it was a commonwealth -- no actual

private ownership of property -- economy based on trade.

Their health and well-being versus the European is glaringly obvious -- and

I'd apply that as well to their emotional well-being and their mental health!


Until the coming of the "discoverers" --

http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_3%20European%20Disease%20in%20the%20New%20World.htm

[Odin2005]

196. I believe he means the 6th Century Plague of Justinian.

The first great global epidemic of Plague. It depopulated wide swathes of Europe. 40% of the folks in Constantinople died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. I am thinking the Black Death with came though Venice

in the 14th century.

There were a few but the Black Death led a semi population crash. The rest, not so much. Even if dearth and want was common all the way to the 19th century.

[WCGreen]

209. That was what I was referring too...

I was responding and not looking for verification. Too much attention on Xmas decorating and I was distracted. Thank You...

[Odin2005]

225. No problem!

[cali]

30. I don't know. I tend to be an Occam's razor sort of person.

And I think people are more often greedy and stupid over greedy and smart.

[Pathwalker]

32. They're building "Armegeddonvilles" around where I live.

Very, very small subdivisions of big, fancy houses that you can't see because they're surrounded by HUGE berms, with only one gated, armed entrance. Clearly, they are expecting something soon. There are several of them now, and they're still building them, despite the real estate crash. VERY creepy. This is why I worry - I know some of these people - they are not DU kind of people, but they are heavily armed.

[kath]

33. whoa - what state is this in?

[Pathwalker]

34. Michigan. Things have been bad here for a long time.

People are radicalized, now. The mood is angry and scared.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Radicalized like 1930s radicalized?

I have been asking how long until people take to streets. If that is the case, it is round the corner... in historic terms that is.

[Pathwalker]

63. Not sure what you mean by 1930s radicalized, Nadin.

Could you explain more fully? Thanks. They all drive Hummers, Suburbans or Escalades, upper middle-class who hate anyone on the lower rungs of the social ladder. They're professionals; medical management, lawyers, administrators, etc. ALL white, one religion, racist. Always angry and unpleasant, very distrustful. NOT Democrats. And, like I said - heavily armed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. In the 1930s we had food riots

and other events from the working classes. No, what you describe are proto fascists.

We had those too, but they were a small group.

Thanks

[Pathwalker]

88. No food riots yet, but other problems, such as

the local food bank is begging for money because they're so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of hungry people needing their support, but the Red Cross just separated from them, so they're now on their own. A homeless compound almost burned to the ground and 2 men died when they tried to light an old wood stove by using gasoline. Many others lost their tents and what few possessions they had in that fire. They've opened up an old condemned apartment building for shelter for the women and children, but frozen dead are discovered 2-3 times a week. Faded For sale signs on homes that have been abandoned for years. Fires in these homes. Very, very sad.

Yes, those people are fascists. And everyone HATES them - even the right-wingers and fundies.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes, it is the depression AGAIN

I suspect that sooner or later folks will get it But don't expect it to be on the NATIONAL Mainstream media well until they cannot avoid it.

We need to keep in contact and try to help locally.

As to the ARC... let's just say I have never been too impressed, and they are gonna be tested in ways they don't understand.

[Pathwalker]

94. The local tv stations only covered the fire because it was seen

from all over town. This compound is one of several in the area, but the press pretends it's not there. Only the paper covers the deaths and smaller fires - barely, but not the homeless compounds. I suspect there are compounds like these all over the country, but they are hidden so people can't see them, so they think the problems aren't that bad. In reality, it's horrifying. Once upon a time, Michigan was considered a harbinger of America's future - America had better hope that's no longer the case...

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. Well I hope my neighbors

in the river valley got out before the rain came in.

Yep, homeless, they live by the river.

[haikugal]

126. May I as you

What is the ARC?

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. American Red Cross

[defendandprotect]

173. A few months ago ....

there was an article where Obama was calling this a "depression" --

scrubbed and replaced with "recession" before I was able to post it --

It's a depression without FDR --

What's the "ARC"?

[Mosaic]

78. The empire will fall, but the country won't.

Typical wasp, paranoid types. The empire will fall, but the country won't. The way forward for them is acceptance of the reality of the 21st century.

[defendandprotect]

68. For quite some years now, the mall at Short Hills in NJ, has featured HUGE IRON DOOR/GATES

for sale as you enter the Mall --

I doubt anyone has ever stood around questioning them -- but they've been

there -- right in the open -- 8-10 feet high -- very substantial stuff!!

[Pathwalker]

71. Those sound like great rose trellises!

I have a rose that wants to grow 10 feet high, but I have to keep cutting it back because I can't find a trellis tall enough. I bet these would work. All our malls have are empty spaces and very few shoppers.

[defendandprotect]

174. When you actually stand there and look at them....

it becomes a strong message as to what they're really about -- !!

Beautiful art work, btw, involved in them --

But obviously not to be mistaken for anything decorative!

[JackRiddler]

127. Why would it matter? Would it make it his fault that an empire was built and collapsed?

[KurtNYC]

7. I've got $1000 that says he is wrong

It has been declining for 4 decades but no collapse is imminent. The Berlin Wall is a terrible analogy and has no correlation to the state of the USA.

If you look at the bank bailout, the bill for the Afghan war, the deficit, the amount of loans held by China and many other things it would seem that the Fed is completely over-extended yet we have survived worse. About the only thing that would collapse the US (and every other country and government) is an out break of disease or persistent worldwide famine. Money is just a fantasy -- it is worth something because we believe it -- reality rules don't apply to money.

[Cleita]

9. Or, global warming gone so bad that it will

cut into our food producing abilities bringing with it the famine and even plague. Oh wait! We are pretty close to that already!

[justinsb]

10. Food Producing Abilities

It's not just global warming. The aquifer that feeds the midwest has been over-drained (for irrigation etc) for a century. It will dry up in less than 50 years and agricultural production in Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Nebraska, east Colorado and north Texas will fall to almost zero (those states will consume more than they can supply.)

Also overfishing is rapidly depleting the oceans - prepare for sea food prices to double every five years (unless/until it runs out completely).

[defendandprotect]

89. Don't think we're talking 50 years .....

More likely pressures felt within next ten years --

or sooner --

You can see impact of capitalism and Global Warming on bananas --

tomatoes -- oranges --

[justinsb]

93. Right but....

My comment was in relation to the US grain belt, it's not directly related to global warming

And the oceans - related to global warming but overfishing / overpopulation / tragedy of the commons is the real problem there.

[defendandprotect]

112. Every state has problems with Global Warming including the

Grain Belt --

Understand what you're saying about huge water supply under it -- they didn't understand
it wasn't renewable -- rather like they all had a straw in one glass of water.

But again, don't think we're talking about 50 years --

Also overfishing is rapidly depleting the oceans - prepare for sea food prices to double every five years (unless/until it runs out completely).

Fish are already contaminated and they're trying to turn to fish farms which is an even worse
idea -- viruses, worms whatever develop.

More like pollution of oceans will make fish inedible --

These are all simply evidence of the suicidal nature of capitalism --
for the planet and for humanity.

[juajen]

136. I don't understand. Aquifers are renewable. Our's in So. La

is renewed by rain all the time. They are just using up too much of it. It's not being managed properly. We have fought selling any water from our aquifer, though they are certainly trying to get it all the time. Sorta like Kevin Costner's "Waterworld" scenario. I hope some visionary will help rescue us from this hellacious mess.

[justinsb]

139. Aquifers are renewable but..

Not nearly at the rate it's being used currently - not even at half the rate it's being used currently.

[defendandprotect]

166. Good --

from what I understood of some of the source of this water, it wasn't renewable --

Glad to know that!

[defendandprotect]

216. Just a PS to that response ....

Of course, in some sense, oil is "renewable" -- may take 500 million years,

but it is renewable some will say!

As I understood this underground source of water, it was not "renewable" in

the sense that we usually think of ground water as being replaced --

Not that I've looked into this question lately -- but that's how I recall it.

NOT going to be a source for them again any time soon, clearly.

[Enthusiast]

184. Many of the midwest aquifers are prehistoric.

They can't be recharged quickly enough to matter.

[defendandprotect]

217. Thank you ... I had just come back to try to make my original comments clearer ....

but not as well as you've done it -- !!


:)

[Art_from_Ark]

133. Actually, Arkansas has adequate rainfall

Unlike most of the other states and regions you mention, Arkansas has a humid temperate climate with over 40 inches of rainfall annually throughout the state. The other states/regions, especially the ones west of Arkansas-Missouri-Iowa, are at a far greater risk.

I have a bad feeling that you are right about overfishing-- it's one reason why I don't eat a much seafood.

[justinsb]

140. Arkansas & Fish

Rainfall in Arkansas isn't the issue. There is a vast aquifer that runs under a good portion of the southern midwest. It is where most of the water for the region comes from - it is what feeds irrigation etc., That aquifer - which is fed by rainfall from the region is drying up, very rapidly. If it rained 10" a day in Arkansas 365 days / year it would not be enough to save the aquifer.

As for the fish - the major oceanic NGOs said 5 years ago that if fishing continues at it's current levels the oceans will be dead by 2050. It's not just a matter of fish, but at a certain point the lack of fish will allow microscopic organisms (plankton etc) to overpopulate to a point where they deprive the oceans of oxygen - essentially turning the entire ocean into a dead sea.

The oceans are not so much a U.S. thing as a global thing - coastal countries, especially in asia and africa are consuming a vast amount, but if they didn't they would starve. Overfishing + overpopulation.

[glinda]

138. Aquifers are also being drained or poisoned by energy processing at even a faster rate.

Am kind of glad I live near the River and in the middle of farm country. Uh... nahhhhhhhhh.... everyone is a Repub with tons of firearms here!

[Enthusiast]

186. The greedy corporatists already

see diminishing water resources as a commodity to exploit for their profit. They will achieve their goals with the help of complicit (bought) legislators.

[defendandprotect]

72. That's already happening ... we've been feeling effects of Global Warming since at least 1980's....

obvious effects --

Global Warming is one of the things which imo has pushed this rush to capture all

nations and put them under corporate/elite control --

Of course, elites/corporates created Global Warming -- and when the "Katrina's" begin

to pile up, they don't want angry citizens in a position where they could bring them

to accountability.

Where will they find survival? In some underground caverns? In some "Dr. Strangelove"

fantasy?

The fear, self-hatred, stupidity and ignorance which leads to violence against others and

a desire for control is not going to lead them out of this safely.



Just a comment on my subject line --

Scientists have recognized Global Warming for more than 100 years -- Industrial Revolution --

Dying of the Trees -- and certainly much discussion bringing it to public's attention in

1950's -- but what I was describing in subject line was something which would have been

obvious to most of us if we were paying any attention to weather.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Try & buy food or fuel without any of that fantasy stuff.

[KurtNYC]

159. Bartering

for some the reality is "will work for food"

[Jackpine Radical]

161. Yes, I think it might come to that.

There is also the concept of "local dollars." Madison, WI as well as a number of other places do something like that, in which 1 hour of work is worth 10 units of the local currency, and people trade them around. Of course, it makes the IRS crazy, but that's not going to matter After the Fall.

[starroute]

15. The collapse of US empire is not the collapse of the US as a nation

The United Kingdom didn't collapse when the British Empire went away -- it just became smaller and more modest (and distinctly poorer.)

In the same way, it's the whole overextended American house of cards that's going to become unsustainable -- the one where the US has a military presence all over the world, tries to act as the global policeman, and has the illusion that it can carry on two full-fledged wars and contemplate more.

And yes, that could collapse virtually overnight.

[defendandprotect]

74. Think we're all trying to figure out exactly what it means ... collapse of MIC?

That's very corporate --

Where would that leave intelligence complex -- ?

CIA/FBI -- military branches?

Congress has repeatedly refused to act over decades to "bring the troops home" --

they've been there now for 60 years post-WWII!!

[ixion]

16. Correction: In a fiat currency, money is worth something because OTHERS believe it

This is the crux of the problem, and what many happy-talkers seem to be missing.

While 'reality rules' (e.g. 'the gold standard') indeed do not apply to fiat currencies (by definition) the 'unreality' rules of fiat currency most certainly apply.

And if folks lose faith in your ability to pay/produce/backup, your fiat currency goes belly up. That's just simple macro-economics.

[defendandprotect]

75. And looks like the world is seeing an America "unable to pay up" ... ???

As we all try to figure this out -- that's one of my questions --

And, how about those who "bought gold" -- will they be lugging it around to buy a loaf

of bread?

Very much believe food shortages are coming because of Global Warming -- which elites

have not wanted to acknowledge for 60 years because it would have meant stopping suicidal

capitalism and the huge profits they've draw from it while exploiting the planet and

humanity!!

Agree, dollar bill is an artificial entity -- and as long as it is still "believed" it

transfers power from the many to the few.



:)

[Selatius]

152. Poor fiscal policies can destroy a fiat currency.

If you simply continue to support deficit spending by selling more Treasury bonds, eventually, you will saturate the market. People won't buy them anymore without a word that you'll practice some fiscal discipline. Then, you either raise taxes or cut spending or a combination of both because investors no longer have an appetite for more gov't bonds. During World War 2, the US borrowed roughly 140% of its GDP at the time just to win the war, but every president until Ronald Reagan made sure the national debt each year shrank. This built up good will between the government and would-be bond investors. However, since Ronald Reagan, every president has overseen a rise in the national debt except Clinton.

You simply cannot binge on deficit spending forever. Eventually, people lose faith that you'll ever get your books in order.

[defendandprotect]

218. Well, bailing out corrupt and criminal capitalists was forced upon the public ....

given the choice, the public wants home owners bailed out -- not criminal capitalists --

they want Social Security repaid -- not money used to reward and rescue corrupt business

practices put in place by corrupt legislators!!

[Selatius]

219. The argument slides both ways. The same public voted in these crooks to begin with.

It simply goes back to the point that a democracy can last with a well-informed citizenry. Listening to Rush Limbaugh 24/7 and listening to supply-siders who rode in on Reagan's coattails won't lead the American people anywhere except fiscal collapse and, perhaps, loss of what little freedoms they had left to begin with in the name of national security and waging the War on Terror. The US will probably exist for some time in some form, but I hardly doubt it will exist for the next two centuries as a functioning Republic, more like a Banana Republic or some form of oligarchy or even a simple military dictatorship.

[defendandprotect]

220. We also voted for Obama and CHANGE ... these voters didn't vote for what they got--!!

And trying to suggest that this is anything but corrupt politics --

bait and switch -- is to further confuse things.

The public is not getting what it believes it has been voting for --

they're also waking up to a Congress made up of mostly millionaires and

multi-millionaires whom they have been expecting to vote in their interests!!


Overall, from the highest perspective, Mother Nature/Global Warming will be playing

the final cards -- most of us know that -- and the elites know that.


Capitalism is suicidal -- it's time to end it.

[Selatius]

222. I agree on the last statement, but I fear achieving that could mean a nasty fight, with many deaths.

Industrialists and bankers will not give up power easily. This is a given.

[defendandprotect]

223. We have to try to continue to find ways which cut corporate power ....

not expand it --

As financial well-being of citizens contracts, obviously less will be buying

corporate products --

The main agenda of elites/corporates is to replace sovereign governments -- to

control the wealth and natural resources of nations -- to have power over the populations --

not to do business for profit.

[eridani]

150. Gold is a fake fiat currency propped up by belief just like any other currency n/t

[defendandprotect]

221. There may be people on street corners trying to buy bread with gold....

but I don't really see it --

Maybe passenger on a boat out of here -- but not daily sustinence --



:)

[pokercat999]

157. What use do you have in your daily life that would bring ANY

value to gold? It too is a fiat currency of a type. It has SOME use outside of it's pumped up value as a currency but as a useful metal not so much as to give it the "value" it has today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. And I've gotba slew of empires who'se citizens believed as you do

That say you are wrong. The trends are there, and for most citizens it will be a shock and surprise. Hell it will be for some people in the elite as well. Some of the recent actions in DC reek from desperation.

[defendandprotect]

76. Don't disagree with you, nadin -- but think there is a lot of it many of us here ...

are still trying to understand --

Is the underlying basis of this Global Warming?

This is a lot to think about because people running around with gold and

trying to sell their diamonds depends on an environmental future -- and

someone actually making a few loaves of bread --

is either going to be there?

[Kablooie]

31. You're not quite right.

It's true that money is a fantasy but it can create panicky, violent reactions in people and those are not a fantasy.
There is likely to be some economic collapse around the bend which will result in extreme panic and wrong decisions in all quarters of our world.
This will result in the breakdown in the system and suddenly basic needs like food and electricity will become hard to get.

Just look at the Twilight Zone episode The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street.
It's a parable whose basis is all too true.
A total fantasy can easily bring down civilization.

[defendandprotect]

91. The ride down is much different from the ride up --

and I'm also reflecting upon the VN-era effort for citizens to withhold their

taxes which would go to pay for the war.

Peak Oil fears are based on an energy collapse -- no way to run cars -- insufficient

public transportation - need to grow food locally -- for community to cooperate person

to person and presumably in suburbs, community to community/?

What does come first -- oil that few of us can afford -- or is that simply phase 1 of

Peak oil? What about the first ime you can't pay for heat or air conditioning?

Does that bring people out talking to one another?

Saw a lot of Twilight Zone, but don't recall the particular one you'r citing -- or simply

don't recall it?

[Kablooie]

131. Twilight Zone

When Maple Street is hit with mysterious blackouts, the residents become convinced that aliens have invaded and are hiding among them. Soon the usually friendly residents start suspecting one another of being the alien and the neighborhood devolves into a horrific, paranoid, war zone.

It's a parable from the Red Scare but could easily apply today. It illustrates how paranoid fantasies could grow to totally disrupt a society.

[defendandprotect]

215. Dont think I ever saw it -- but think ....

I recall seeing a program which highlighted parts of it -- connecting it to the McCarthy

Era --?

It's all interesting -- Rod Sterling's show -- paranormal -- his look at Global Warming --

don't know if he wrote every show?

Don't think you can beat "The Crucible," however, in regard to deception and paranoia --

witchhunts ---

And as I reflect back on the McCarthy Era it seems entirely staged by the right wing --

too much emphasis had to be put on "democracy" etal during WWII to win -- and I think it

was a very well organized/planned attack -- not only to purge government of liberals but

to eventually replace them with Nazis/fascists being brought in under Operation Paperclip.

Needless to say, a huge attack on the arts -- and its continuing attempts to tell TRUTH.

A very vicious and long-continuing attack on liberals and the ideals of democracy.

Of course, Nixon a large part of it -- much of it a frame up of Hiss --

the still questionable attacks on the Rosenbergs -- and the actual execution of them!

Shocking period of time which was never suitably responded to, except by JFK --

and his presidency.

It's the continuing question, imo, of how the few can control the many -- with violence,

intimidation, threats. Age old question!

[ProudDad]

64. "we have survived worse."

Really?

When? :eyes:

[KurtNYC]

160. A: 1860-1865

The Civil War. 625,000 dead.

Now PM me so I can tell you where to send that $1000 check. :eyes:

Or do you think losing in Afghanistan is going to be worse than the Civil War ?

[Demstud]

8. Doubt it

Yeah, we may be in a long and slow decline, but I don't see a complete collapse anytime soon.

[justinsb]

11. It already has

As a dual citizen (Canada & U.S.) who has lived on both sides of the border I would say that the view from outside the US is decidedly different.

The only thing that has yet to collapse is the illusion of a US empire. The national psyche of the US demands it be an international super power. Both political parties know that Americans won't stand for being #2 (or 3, 4, 5 etc) but that has already happened and spending has gone through the roof so that Washington can continue to pretend otherwise.

China is now the #1 power in the world. Many are unaware of it because China has yet to seriously flex its muscles. It is in China's interest, for the moment, not to appear to be the #1 power in the world. They are quietly increasing their wealth, their military and their standing in the world. They are making huge investments in Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Latin America and right here in Canada - they are buying up fuel and mineral rights like it was a black Friday sale (or boxing day if you're in Canada.)

India is currently #3 and will be #2 within 5 years (maybe less).

Currently the US has a very strong and technologically advanced military, and some remaining economic strength - much of that though (much of both of those things) is propped up by debt and a good chunk of that debt is owed to China.

Asia, Latin America, the Middle East and Africa already don't care very much what the US thinks. Most won't openly come out against the US but the days when the US could bully other countries and get it's way is over. If push comes to shove most other countries will turn their back on the US and go their own way. Hopefully the new congress will not land the US in new wars before they realize that:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/12/07/the_tea_partys_vendetta

From my point of view the only way that the U.S. can avoid collapse is to set her sights on being a better place to live and give up on being an international super power. That would mean (in the near future):

Cutting military spending dramatically (say 50%)
Sharply increasing taxes, especially on the wealthy (though many of them would just leave the country)
Balancing the federal budget (meaning cuts to entitlements)
Making a dramatic shift to green (renewable) energy - not baby steps, a huge, dramatic and almost immediate shift. China owns your fossil fuels.
A government takeover (complete and total) of the health care system

Short of this, I don't think even the illusion can be kept up for long (10 years max). The recent tax cut is being paid for with money borrowed from abroad. Not a good first step.

[ixion]

17. laying mortally wounded, but still dangerous

most empires do not fade quietly into the night, rather, they rage against the light, to paraphrase.

[justinsb]

20. Teeth?

I think that if the US rages it will be internal. It's difficult to see how the US could take on more international adventures short of using nukes (against other countries with nukes.) With a few pen strokes China, and a few other countries, could devalue the US currency to the point where air craft carriers couldn't afford to move - they could also cut off the US fossil fuel supply in a heartbeat and dramatically reduce the food supply.

I think the greatest danger lies in civil war, not international.

[ewagner]

21. Agree

The anger of the populace..both "informed" anger and blind, mindless rage is growing and we see it all around us. People are doing irrational things just out of shear, unadulterated desperation to relieve their rage.

and certain news outlets are fomenting more of it...for profit...not for the good of the nation

[defendandprotect]

85. Unfortunately, the "nukes" are always a consideration ...

and perhaps some in the MIC would like to go out #1?

That's a frightening thought --

Dr. Strangelove -- ?

[justinsb]

104. Yes, the nukes are there

But it's back to MAD. Any use of nukes by the US against anyone - would be the end of the US.

If the U.S. is lucky, they would nuke a nuclear power or the close ally of a nuclear power and be blown into oblivion

If the U.S. were unlucky they would not get a nuclear counter-strike but would be an international periah - the U.S. dollar would plummet, exports would shrink to near zero, imports would shrink to near zero, inflation would go through the roof and the U.S. would be asking Ethiopia for humanitarian aid (before, during or after the inevitable civil war).

[defendandprotect]

113. That's already happened ....

Any use of nukes by the US against anyone - would be the end of the US.

But our lies and propaganda were believed --

Doubt our kharma is in very good shape -- and doubt we could get away with it again.

But it has already happened -- and there are still people who believe the myth of

why US did it!!


:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. It hasn't fully and the illusion is still there

But what you describe are the new alliances forming as all that remains is the last hurrah. The last to know will ne USA-Americans.

[ProudDad]

65. "meaning cuts to entitlements"

Which "entitlements"?

My meager Social Security check and Medicare?

I'm with you on the rest of the list, I just don't want to have to starve under a freeway overpass... :shrug:

Cutting military spending dramatically (say 50%) <-- let's say 75%
Sharply increasing taxes, especially on the wealthy (though many of them would just leave the country)
Balancing the federal budget (meaning cuts to entitlements) <-- I hate that word Entitlements!
Making a dramatic shift to green (renewable) energy - not baby steps, a huge, dramatic and almost immediate shift. China owns your fossil fuels. And POWER DOWN -- cut consumption by at least 50%
A government takeover (complete and total) of the health care system Enhanced and Improved Medicare for All

I'd also say we must change the economic imperatives; create local, sustainable steady state economies -- we DO NOT NEED the Ponzi scheme banks and exchanges...

[justinsb]

84. Cuts to entitlements

Don't always mean across the board cuts to everyone. It can be as simple as means testing (not giving Social Security to people who are millionaires) and/or counting entitlements as earned income, so that if you go beyond a certain point in income you pay taxes - and the medicare wouldn't be an issue anymore (see the rest of the list).

[defendandprotect]

95. No -- once you create a Medicare or SS where wealthy only pay in and don't

get their fair share in return, you destroy it --

how long would elites tolerate it?

And, it would become "welfare" -- the dreaded condition!

[justinsb]

100. What I'm saying is

that it needs to happen. The current US spending on entitlements (sorry I know it's a bad word but...) is unsustainable, something has to be done and means testing is the least painful way of doing it.

It can't keep going the way it is, it will bankrupt the country. The cheques will be for the same amount but they won't buy much.

The overall problem with SS is that the government, for decades ( under Dems and Republicans) treated it as general revenue and filled the Social Security coffers with IOUs, now the debts have come due and the money isn't there.

[defendandprotect]

108. US government spends NOTHING on Social Security .....

it is paid for by employees and employers -- not government.

It is the MIC which is an "entitlement" and which is unaffordable!

I'm amazed that you are spouting this right wing argument --

If the money "isn't there" for those the government has borrowed from

then it isn't there for China or anyone else?

Granted, you can talk about theft -- but nationals also understand that --

if you're willing to steal from your own citizens, you'll likely steal from them!


:eyes:

[erodriguez]

120. That is until Pres. Obama signs the tax cut bill.

[defendandprotect]

168. Don't understand all the implications ....

but something happens which connects it now to the General Fund?

PLUS the cuts to funding now --

It's the reverse of what should be happening --

but then, too, Obama is the reverse of what should be happening!!


:(

[coalition_unwilling]

134. Actually, means testing for SS and Medicare will spell the death of each program

because the broad-based societal consensus around the utility of such programs will begin to fray once there is means testing for the benefits. A far less painful way to shore up SS and Medicare is to raise the caps on payroll taxes to make SS and Medicare tax structures more progressive than they are currently.

[jtuck004]

137. Just because one has a debt the money isn't there?

So if one has a mortgage they have to move because "the money isn't there", or our national debt means we
have to turn out the lights because the money isn't there"?

It's in T-bills, notes backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. And we are the sole manufacturer of
the dollar. So of course it's there. We cannot go bankrupt.

I will grant you that if we keep going the way we are going we would have to keep adding more zeroes to the reserve
account, and eventually people would lose faith in the dollar, but as long as we have electricity we can create
more zeroes. Read the publicly available reports from the Federal Reserve, it's quite clear.

But austerity is not the only path, it is just the only path that preserves wealth for the very, very rich, and keeps
most of the rest of the country in debt to them. That is far from the only way we can go. When companies like Goldman
Sachs created their deceptive shell corporations which began to move much of the wealth of this country to a small group
in the 20's (among other reasons), they helped cause the Great Depression. In response we created a jobs program like no
other, and drew up some laws that began to reign in the worst excesses of the banks, as well as insuring that unions could
survive in a capitalist society. Over the years we grew our way our of the Depression (including a war) and had a long
period of great prosperity. When we got rid of those regulations and over the years we lost that ability, lost the core
of our industrial growth, and lost our security.

There are a few people trying to use their money and power to convince everyone that the only way to proceed is to
protect their class. They are wrong.

[justinsb]

142. Again...

The us is a bubble...

Yes you are the only producer of the US dollar but the world already has lost faith in the US dollar - a long, long time ago. There were 4 countries who pushed for OPEC nations to switch from the dollar to the Euro as the benchmark currency for oil prices about 10 years ago - those countries were Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Venezuela. The first three were listed by Bush as the "axis of evil" the last .... well look at US relations w/ Venezuela.

Everyone on Earth seems to know about all of this - outside of the US.

[jtuck004]

151. If you have lost faith in your dollars, would you please send

them to me? I am sure there is a UPS outlet near where you are. But I bet you won't - oh, sorry. You can't bet, 'cause you don't believe in the dollar.

Your point seemed to be that we needed to cut spending on social programs. But that's only if we want to preserve the wealth of the people who have the most money. We once had great success building this country up, and such a solution would help the 80% of the people without the wealth. The 20% who own 87% of all private wealthy would have to pay their fair share, which they are not doing now.

I am not so sure there shouldn't be a world currency for settling trades, there are a couple books that talk about that. Removes it from the realm of politics. But that's another post, doesn't really interest me.

And as far as the bubble thing, that has already made the news here. But thanks.

But a lot of people do seem to have the same thoughts as in your post. They repeat them frequently on various talk radio shows, and occasionally on the floors of our Congress. It's too bad, really, because the one advantage we have with a government such as our is the ability to put everyone to work on huge programs that could encourage the building of wealth. The silly talk about cutting back is just a Republican mantra for "I am selfish and want to keep my money". Shoot, we just signed off on a tax bill that will give 1% of our people a tax break of about $77,000 a year, and the 20% that make the least about $400. What the hell is fair about that? It's no way to run a country, and people should be ashamed they let it happen.

Why the talk of cuts is popular is beyond me, but if we continue to go down that road we will likely be in at least 20 years of the most horrendous economy we have seen since perhaps the 1930's. Barring some large civil unrest, which I really don't see, there will be a lot of misery and a lowering of living standards for millions of people, although the few with money may be somewhat insulated.

Which may be why they feel safe in promoting that "cut expenses" crap.

We need investment in the country, investment in our people, and for people with wealth to pay their fair share for a change.

[defendandprotect]

177. It's socially responsible government which keeps people and nations going ....

and great wealth and rule by the few and greed which destroys them --

[jtuck004]

202. Yup. And we are being so irresponsible now it is sickening. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

You really are not interested in what it means

to lose reserve currency status?

Unfriging amazing.

Yes that means you have way too much dollars in circulation for starters. Hyper inflation is one possibility

The other... assured, is that you and I will have to buy products abroad in somebody else's currency. That means that you will need lots of dollars to get one of those other currency. Exchange rates, something Americans are not familiar with. For a while the Sterling was really not valuable and all things the briths bought in the world stage, from fruit to oil, was really expensive.

I am not surprised you do not want to know... but you will... of course there are also currency controls and a slew of other things that countries can face.

For starters, those apples we import from Chile could easily be five times their cost RIGHT NOW at the supermarket.

[nadinbrzezinski]

181. You really are not interested in what it means

to lose reserve currency status?

Unfriging amazing.

Yes that means you have way too much dollars in circulation for starters. Hyper inflation is one possibility

The other... assured, is that you and I will have to buy products abroad in somebody else's currency. That means that you will need lots of dollars to get one of those other currency. Exchange rates, something Americans are not familiar with. For a while the Sterling was really not valuable and all things the briths bought in the world stage, from fruit to oil, was really expensive.

I am not surprised you do not want to know... but you will... of course there are also currency controls and a slew of other things that countries can face.

For starters, those apples we import from Chile could easily be five times their cost RIGHT NOW at the supermarket.

[jtuck004]

200. You misread my message or maybe I wrote badly.

I know what it means - I just don't care to run around like a chicken little bemoaning our fate. I would rather find
people who want to do something about it and, well, do it.

I also know that inflation is one thing, hyperinflation is quite another, and requires almost a frenetic response to
events. You know, I suspect, that this is the same stuff they told Japan about hyperinflation, still hasn't happened.
While it might happen here, inflation, even serious inflation, is much more likely. Even so, I have been listening
to people yap about inflation since the financial crisis started - we even have a government that has spent money
trying to encourage it. While there has been some, even they haven't been able to jump it like they say they want.

This was the strongest, smartest, most capable nation in the world, and sometimes a place that could visit great tragedy
on other people. We could do the good part again, but everyone seems to have gone all fatalistic, forgotten what growth means.

Easy word, GROWTH. Apparently hard to accomplish.

And growth, real growth, could come from investing in our people, investing in our infrastructure, just like we
did in the 30's. And that IS what I am interested in doing, not just watching the country circle into the drain
of Goldman Sachs.

On the other hand, giving $114 billion presents to the very, very wealthy is not the way to do that. Cutting people
from Social Security, dropping their insurance, mandating that people send bucketloads of money to insurance
companies without fixing the health care delivery system is a path to certain ruin, inflation, loss of the reserve
currency status, etc. And I am most definitely NOT interested in seeing that continue.

And those apples we import from Chile could be grown in Washington - they would cost more, but they would employ the
people who used to pick them, and people would waste a damn site less than they do today. We might even figure out a
deal where the apple pickers could own part of the business. And that would work directly against against the falling
of our currency status. But the best part is that it would work against the small minority of people who hold 87% of
the private wealth in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. First WE STILL grow apples in Washington

they come from Chile when those apple trees in Washington State are not in season, something else people have forgotten.

As to investing in the country yes I know what that is. Unfortunately there are strong forces, start in DC, that do not want to do that.

Oh and I am not being fatalistic, I know that Empires fall, we are falling.

I also know that things will NOT change until we go through THAT pain. Then, and only maybe then, will those who have the power to change the dynamic, will get it and do it. Empires have very predictable ways of acting. We are at the dysfunctional stage...

And yes I would love to change the dynamic, but me alone will not. I try to buy ONLY American, the way I can try to fight this. Hell, we just got NEW dishes from a LOCAL craftswoman. They were four times what it would be if I went down to Ralphs... they are NOT mass produced. You have done that?

As to inflation, it will be a given when the USD is no longer the reserve currency.

[jtuck004]

206. I never said we don't grow apples here.

You wrote - well, you know what you wrote. They are hobby growers for the most part, in comparison to what used to exist here. Doesn't mean there aren't still a number that grow relatively large amounts of produce, especially wheat in the Palouse, asparagus and other veggies in the Tri-Cities area, onions and potatoes in the center of the state. There are a couple bins for local produce at Walmart, the rest is from out of the country. As a country we began to import those things because people got used to being spoiled, being able to eat apples and cherries all year long, instead of apples in the fall and cherries in July. Now we do it out of necessity, and that's a path to ruin.

When we can I buy eggs, milk, and a few other things locally, and I make my own bread with wheat that is grown not too far away.
The point is that we must go back to producing our own wealth (food will be problematic, because we have built crap on so much arable land that we no longer have enough to grow the food supply for 300+ million people). Our house, and a lot of others, sits on top of what used to be a huge strawberry field. Otis Orchards, a few miles away, used to be...wait for it...orchards. Apples and all sorts of fruits. Now it is mostly all houses. Not just in agriculture - as a nation we have let our factories decline while we (in a larger sense "we") pursued short-term gains by moving jobs out of the country. Our education, another industry we have neglected, is woefully inadequate for anything other than creating fodder for the oligarchy.

My point is that by taking back the production we can start to rebuild the country and reverse the trend. If we don't do that, you are correct, we are finished.

Went to a little farm the other day in the old "orchard" area - they were selling winter squash and other output from their farm. They had a trebuchet set up, and were slinging squash to entertain everyone. I remember thinking how odd it is that we import food, that we have 40 million people on food stamps, and here they are destroying food for entertainment purposes. Now, they will plow that under, and it will become nutrients for the next year's crop, but I thought it was kind of symbolic of what is going on.


Respectfully - blah, blah, blah inflation\hyperinflation - we can all read and understand not only the likelihood but the constant drumbeat of people warning against it coming...some day. Ok, when people get a little more specific maybe they will be worth listening to. But I don't hear anything about solutions in that. Nor is it inevitable. We have spent and destroyed trillions of dollars in the past few years, all of which, it was predicted, would turn the dollar into mulch. Still waiting...

I highly suspect the greater threat is deflation, given we are only using less than 75% of our manufacturing capacity, and have
a 9 year inventory of homes (and that doesn't count the foreclosures coming next year) and 30+ million people are unemployed or underemployed. We are adding to the long-term unemployed with disheartened people faster than we are creating jobs. At this point it is very likely we will not see 6% unemployment for at least two decades, and there is nothing inflationary about that. On the other hand the Fed is still trying to shove fistfuls of zeroes into the banks, and we gifted another $100+ billion dollars to the very wealthy, so if people work at inflation hard enough, maybe they will make it happen.

> "Unfortunately there are strong forces, start in DC, that do not want to do that."<

We aren't slaves to them, they work for us. The 300,000,000+ people are the ones with the power, whether they know it, or use it, or not. But we, as a people, the ones with the power, seem to be captivated by "Dancing Like A Star" or whatever, watching on our Korean television with the Korean car in the garage, taking calls on our Chinese iphone, munching on our frozen, prepackaged mush made from cheap food grown in Mexico, or Chile, or wherever. That abdication is the only thing that gives the politicians and the oligarchy that controls them power.

I have no doubt we are dysfunctional as a country - I just don't think it's irreversible. We have built one of the strongest, most capable nations that ever existed, partly due to our ability to bring people of various cultures together to work for a common goal, that of building something bigger than they could build on their own. We seem to have forgotten that, but it doesn't mean it couldn't re-awaken and happen again. Most of the countries around us still today are not innovators - they buy new ideas from us. They are trying very hard, but our system supports the production of new ideas better than perhaps any other.

Your reading of history may lead you to other conclusions, and I can live with that. But I think spending my time trying to figure out a new manufacturing process, or creating an employee-owned facility that can compete with Chinese prison labor, or how a group of people can survive in the face of a falling nation is a better use of my time. I am aware of the downside of continuing as we have been, but occupying my thoughts with what will happen if we don't take the actions we need to take is not going to get them done.

I should add - I don't mean to argue with you. I really like reading what you write. I just think more people are caught up in this whole "oh my god we have to spend less, cut loose the seniors,blah, blah bah" rap than need to be.

It's like everyone has forgotten that we have a choice - we could very well grow ourselves out of this, and build economic and political structures that leave the oligarchy behind.

Or maybe I give people too much credit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. Alas we are at the same point I was

when I was an 18 year old voting for the frist time in Mexico.

Elections are a joke...

The fight is NOT there.

As to the rest, here is a hint, I could try to grow my own stuff, or run my own company. Been there, done that. If I cannot get credit, I don't have operating cash.

So unless we go to you lending me and me lending you, it ain't gonna happen

The fight needs to be fought, but people first need to wake up to the cold reality.

Oh and the production in WA St, is beyond just hobbyists growing some stuff.

Yes we need to grow and produce our own stuff. blah, blah, blah, blah. It will not happen UNTIL the empire does collapse and our economy is FORCED to do that. As I said there are forces out there. I am just aware of them... and yes 300 million could fight them. And chances are we will, but not now. It will take a lot more pain. We are getting close, the crisis is almost here, And as to hyper inflation and all that. it is well within the possible if and when the world stops using us as a reserve currency. It depends just how fast they switch. The Sterling had another problem, a lost decade, but then there was this small war between 1939- and 1945... you may have heard of it, and of course a small plan to help them, by 1947... we will not have either of those, especially the latter.

Have a good day.

[justinsb]

187. You didn't read

what I said before replying I don't think. You've missed some key points and added in some new ones.

1) I don't live in the U.S. so I don't see a ton of US dollars and if I do get them I exchange them for Canadian dollars - I don't send them to people I don't know (what a very strange request.) In general if people lose faith in a currency they exchange it for a different currency, they don't throw it away.

2) I didn't say anything about cutting social programs. I did say that they need to reduce entitlements and then went on (elsewhere in the thread) to suggest things like means testing. I did suggest cutting military spending sharply (I didn't know that was a social program though) and I suggested a government take over of health care - which I think would count as increased spending on social programs.

But yes, overall the US does need to cut expenses - if the US continues spending at current levels the dollar will collapse and your income will be irrelevant as the money will be nearly worthless.

[jtuck004]

201. I read it. I disagree with the path suggested. n/t

[glinda]

143. they are taking care of that with letting the elderly die. Right now the majority of the

population is older or elderly. First time that there are less younger people. Of course the will get rid of them also because there won't be much food to eat.

[defendandprotect]

82. Found your comments very interesting ....

The only thing that has yet to collapse is the illusion of a US empire. The national psyche of the US demands it be an international super power. Both political parties know that Americans won't stand for being #2 (or 3, 4, 5 etc) but that has already happened and spending has gone through the roof so that Washington can continue to pretend otherwise.

And from inside the US, I acknowledge being very confused.

When you say "the national psyche of the US" do you mean the right wing/corporates/elites in

control, or do you actually mean the population? But you confuse me further by suggesting that

"Americans won't stand for being #2..."

I don't see it as the public -- in fact, not so long ago, think I saw a spark of resistance to

MIC from a military leader/? Like all other people, I think Americans want PEACE - and think

that's made clear in the anti-war movement/?


Also, re China -- you're probably correct.

But how much more room is there for exploiting nature. I don't think that would be a pathway

to the future -- more like ending it/?

Some say, concerns about China and India and perhaps fears of their takeover of the Middle

East might have propelled our takeover of the Middle East/?

We are obviously losing in Afghanistan as the Russians did -- and in order to hold onto the

occupancy we are becoming even more brutal in our occupation.

If China or India's ideas are basedon more capitalistic exploitation of planet and humanity,

I think we see the time for that is over/?


Agree re most of your recommendations -- obviously, if government was going to increase taxes

on wealthy, we'd have to call out the national guard! But we could pass regulations which would

again prevent the flight of money.


What's happening in Canada -- aren't you also being troubled by a right wing takeover to some

degree/?


:)

[justinsb]

90. re: re; re:

Wow.. bunch of stuff. Yes, there is a US anti war movement, it would have to be much larger though. There are always anti-war movements in the US but to date it is the most agressive, war like nation in modern history. If you include the indian wars the number of years the US has been at war (with someone somewhere) far exceeds the number of years it has been at peace. It permeates the culture. I'm always surprised when I talk to "progressive" Americans and say that they are no longer the #1 power in the world, or that they might potentially lose a war (not just pull out but out and out lose) and they start talking about nukes. It actually happens fairly frequently.

That you can watch (in tv and movies) and act out (in video games) dozens of brutal murders but a naked body is absolutely forbidden says much about the culture.

Also see - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x28066

Re: China

I agree, their environmental record is terrible and they will eventually be surpassed by India because india is being much smarter, more progressive and forward looking in it's development. The reality is though that any talk of renewable energy is now about the energy supply. The world has decided to do nothing about global warming/climate change. The baby steps that have been taken have all been about controlling the growth of emissions, not reducing them (except in rare cases like Germany). Green/renewable energy at this point is about peak oil, not climate change.

There will be environmental catastrophes in the next century, no doubt about it. At this point the focus of world governments, if they think about it at all, is about responding to them, not preventing them.

Re: Canada

Yes, we have a minority conservative government - that means that they do not hold a majority of either house but have more seats than anyone else. That also means that they can't do anything on their own. In order to get votes they have to compromise with someone.

You also have to remember that our "conservatives" are in many ways more left than US democrats. Canadian conservatives - support National Health Care, support the Canadian Pension Plan (social security), wouldn't dream of touching social programs and recently announced the scrapping of some planned military projects because of the economy. They also spent hundreds of billions on stimulus and ran a 50 billion dollar deficit (the largest in Canadian history - including WWII).

The left in Canada is up in arms about how right wing they are, but in the U.S. they would be unelectable pinkos.

[defendandprotect]

105. Thanks for the reply ....

but ...

There's a huge international war movement which America is part of --

And agree completely with what you're saying about the long history of US aggression --
We're in the same gene pool which gave us genocide vs Native America -- and enslavement
of African here.

And, agree that in certain places where the MIC has a high presence it can permeate the
culture - or so I've heard.
But, truthfully, I am shocked at your report that we have ordinary people with the
"nuke'em Le May/McCain" mentality!

That you can watch (in tv and movies) and act out (in video games) dozens of brutal murders but a naked body is absolutely forbidden says much about the culture.

And, agree with you on that, as well -- but the right wing has spent decades trying to turn
this into a violent society -- prudish, evidently -- but violent!!! :eyes:

Looking at your link ....

Also see - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

don't really find much to argue with -- if I have a problem at all with what you write
it is that you seem to really believe that the country has failed because of the people --
not right wing leadership/?

but I will comment on this from the link ...

First of all, the tea bagger/ repuke problem is that they look at the US golden age (1945-1960 ish) as the goal post. That is the time they want to get back to. What they do not understand about that time is why the US prospered. If they understood that they would understand that it will never happen again (hopefully).

The T-baggers are the creation of the Koch Bros./Oil industry -- financed by them, put in play
by them -- and run out of a PR firm which guarantees them exposure.

As Cheney told us -- and he should be believed -- "the right wing creates the reality and the
rest of you live it" --
That wasn't an observation/sentiment unique to Cheney ...

John Mitchell, former Nixon/AG, told the same story --
"this country is going to go so far to the right that it will make your head spin..."

W Bush -- "you have to keep catapulting the propaganda" --

Right wing corporates don't run our press and buy up all the news outlets because they
love a free press -- they do it to prevent any real news from leaking out --

They don't buy up all our publishing houses because they like to run businesses -- they
do it to control the flow of ideas and information which threatens them.

The T-baggers are part of a long chain link -- GOP gave start up funding for the Christian
Coalition in the 1980's -- Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization -- and other
wealthy Repugs financed Bauer's org.

Can we look at the "pro-life" community and its propensity for violence/murder -- and/or
the NRA which targetted moderates and liberals in the Dem Party -- and even in the GOP --
as anything but part of the GOP?

We've had more than 50 years of right wing political violence which ran a coup on JFK and
took our people's government with it, as well --

ALL of those things were inflicted upon the American public by elites/corporates to create
a right wing environment -- having nothing to do with the wishes of the public.

Add the Drug War into that -- which Ehrlichman made clear was seen by Nixon as an opportunity
to criminalize African Africans who smoked marijuana - and other people of color.
And look at how it has now turned into an operation with heavy military involvement -- and
which has been used to intervene in the affairs of many other nations.

I'll respond to the rest of it in another post --

[defendandprotect]

106. ... and glad to hear your report on Canadian government ... !!

It's not about China's enviornmental record ... it's about where we are with Global
Warming severely changing and limiting the conditions under which we live right now --
and compounding in ways we can't even begin to estimate.

The world didn't decide to do nothing about GW ... elites who control our natural resources
did that! And they've spent tens of billions lying to the public and misinforming the public
in their own interests.

The reality is though that any talk of renewable energy is now about the energy supply.

No - renewable energy isn't about fossil fuels which is where our "supply" is based now.

Germany allegedly now has an electric car -- SOLAR GENERATED BATTERIES -- which will go
more than 350 miles before it needs a recharging -- and then recharging takes 6 minutes!

Obviously, renewable energy has been denied, disappeared, and dumped as quickly as it has
been invented over the last half century.

It is not so much peak oil which is a threat to humanity -- it is OIL, itself -- and all
fossil fuels. We should be nationalizing them and limiting their use.
And the Democratic Platform which JFK ran on in 1960 called for nationalizing the oil industry!

The "world" didn't decide to do nothing about Global Warming -- those who control and profit
from our natural resources made sure no action was taken.

There will be environmental catastrophes in the next century, no doubt about it.

Two decades ago, our scientists told us that at that point we had limited time -- we have even
less time now. All over the world GW catastrophies are being suffered.


And, OK ... thanks for the news on your government -- we need someone left to come save US!


:)

[glinda]

141. China is less than a quarter of our debt I had heard. Other debt holders include somewhere by

Dubai but it might be that the biggest debt holders are all of the investors, retired folk, teachers,etc.... with the monies invested in the Banks. Where is that money anyways?? hmmmmm.... oh yea... it is most likely out of this Country. (think BoA????) to be gambled with.
America's payback for its debt is it's sell out and blood of the soldiers. America is beholden to the oil industry and the big asses that hold the globe in itheir sweaty greedy palms.
Add to that Global Climate Change and it is a disaster waiting to happen. They know it and they fear it. Money put into Mars mission and looking for leaving the planet.
How long will it take for others to invade us? Don't you think that the top cats here worry about that? The jig is up here also but yet the full picture is not revealed to many. It is global. We used to add blood and food for good until blood and food and resources became the debt owed. Not only do we start wars to attempt to maintain some assemblence of power and so called survivability but we are also the fodder.
America is also being tipped by the leaks. It could go for the good or it could go for the bad. I want it to tip for the good but will not hold my breath.

[justinsb]

148. China

China may be "only" be a quarter of the debt but a quarter of the debt is an amount of money that is inconceivable to the average mind. Somewhere on the order of 1000 million times what the average person will see in their lifetime.

I wouldn't worry about being invaded though - there is nothing to be gained by invasion. Modern wars are over resources and trade routes, the US has neither. The US won't be invaded, it will be pushed to the sidelines.

[glinda]

149. Good points. WE are the holder of a great deal of debt. The money, the stocks, bonds, etc

And maybe just maybe...... this is the next shoe to drop or leaked. They screwed all of the people's savings and investments away. Nada. Nothing. Big scam of the Century. So they cut entitlements and HC and other things because we no longer have the money. Money that people earned.

[eilen]

164. I'm at the point where I am not certain if our military is

not just a mercenary force for China Corp. to secure those mineral and fossil fuel rights in Iraq and Afghanistan. The AQ boogeyman drone attacks -- what are they really for?

[treestar]

19. oh dear

:scared: :scared:

[SidDithers]

22. I hope it doesn't happen this weekend...

I've got a busy week next week.

Sid

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Gahahahaha!

:rofl:

[Buns_of_Fire]

36. Lemme check my calendar... Well, Jesus is returning in May, and the Mayans have us scheduled for

something in December 2012, and I start drawing Social Security in early 2013... so, other than that, I guess I'm pretty much open. Are we going to have to fill out any forms? I hate filling out forms.

/Andy Rooney Moment

[femrap]

44. Sid...you

are too funny.

Don't worry it'll be next year. I'm going with Jan. 6, 2011. Before all the Xmas bills come in the mail!

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. ROFL

Most preposterous headline in weeks, and that's saying a lot.

[Kablooie]

29. The country may collapse but the corporate empires will remain.

They are not US based anymore, they are global and the corporate empires are all that matters to our evil overlords.
They will still be successful and happy as pig in your pocket.

[newspeak]

109. During Little Boot's reign

I questioned whether he was spending like a drunken sailor on purpose. He and his greedy accomplices were shoveling treasury money as fast as they could to their corporate friends. War makes it even easier to keep shoveling the dough.

I still think, might be wrong, it has to do with the grand "New World Order" scheme, that Poppy and Kissenger have more than once publicly stated. Now what would be the NWO? I believe the NWO is a grand scheme of global corporations actually having more power over resources and people than individual national governments. I mean, they use nationalism to drive an agenda, but it is the power brokers who have the power, not governments.

And, any nation, especially a strong democratic nation, is a detriment to their grand schemes. Any democratically elected leader who cares more about his/her people than the "business" agenda is taken out, either by assassination or coupe. And, I don't believe the participants of the NWO have any high ideological goals--it is money, power and control. Just a bunch of greedy sickos with a "king of the mountain" mentality.

[Enthusiast]

188. Their New World Order does

not include the 'lesser people'. You can take that to the bank.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

35. Chris Hedges is the only guest for Bob McChesney - Sunday 2pm ET - streaming

http://will.illinois.edu/mediamatters/show/december-19th-2010/

Media Matters with Bob McChesney
Sundays at 1 pm Central on AM580

Media Matters features host Bob McChesney in conversation with a variety of guests. Listeners may call with comments or questions.

Bob McChesney is a research professor in the Institute of Communications Research and the Graduate School of Information and Library Science at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "The media are central to all our lives," he says. "Yet the media are the most frequently misunderstood parts of our lives. We want to help people understand the role of media in society."


MEDIA MATTERS PROGRAMS & ARCHIVES:
Sunday, December 19, 2010

Chris Hedges and Bob McChesney Sunday at 1pm

Chris Hedges, whose column is published Mondays on Truthdig, spent nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, the Middle East, Africa and the Balkans. He has reported from more than 50 countries and has worked for The Christian Science Monitor, National Public Radio, The Dallas Morning News and The New York Times, for which he was a foreign correspondent for 15 years. Call and comment during this live program. http://www.truthdig.com

[femrap]

45. I hope I can remember about this!!!!!

2:00 pm EST on Sunday. I respect both of these dudes. And I really don't like people, so that's saying a lot. I'll try a post-it on the alarm clock!!!

[Bozita]

224. Hoping this helps

[Taverner]

37. Define collapse

Collapse as in, the world stops using our money? That's starting right now. Some may say we already have collapsed by that definition.

Collapse as in, the government can't pay for itself? Hell, that's also happening now.

Collapse as in, barbarians at the gates? Well, define barbarian. The Tea Party looks like barbarians to me...

Collapse as in cease to be a government, well I think they have enough guns, tanks, planes, nukes and sundry to keep that going.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. USSR style collapse that is what he is talking about

and we are well on our way. Why it is imminent.

What is funny is that a British Historian published an EMPIRE IS "BOUT TO COLLAPSE in foreign affairs at the beginning of the year... Foreign Affairs is not quite a liberal, lefty institution.

Now it is becoming quite obvious to those of us paying attention.

Voices joining that chorus is also part of the trends I am tracking.

[Taverner]

40. If you're talking about "Empire runs out of money" then that is well underway

Many towns and states are insolvent. Soon, our Federal Government will be, and the GOP will do nothing but give tax breaks to the rich in the interim.

So, if that's your definition, we're already there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. No we are not there YET

it is very near, but not there yet.

It can and will get much worst before it is official.

[Taverner]

46. Cities and some States are already turning insolvent

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Yes, and it still can and will get much worst

by the time the USSR disolved the Army had not been paid for two months and troops were on short rations. Police all over did not get paid for six...

And streets and other services were falling apart.

We are not there YET.

We are moving there, but have not arrived.

People really have no idea just how much worst this can be.

[Taverner]

48. No, I have seen failed states

Was in Cambodia during the FUNCINPEC days...nothing like no police, no waste services and no law...

12 year olds carrying rocket launches, 4 year olds packing heat, and instead of throwing away your trash, you just put some petrol on it and burned it.

Not sure if we'll hit there - my prediction is that cities will get strong leaders who find a way to make it happen anyway

But still, scary at best...

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Oh absolutely

and personally I am hoping for the USSR scenario and not oh Somalia scenario.

A civil war is not civil.

[Taverner]

51. No I think it will be better than the USSR scenario

Towns, Cities and States will unite, but government in California will definitely be different than that on the East Coast.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I expect the country to break up

When I spent a month in Cleveland for dad's surgery I got to see how different values are.

And for god sakes that is LIBERAL Cuyahooga CO.

It was like being in a foreign country and that alone was scary.

[Taverner]

54. I have noticed it too

Texas and California will be independent states.

Those two states have completely different values.

Even NYC and SF have totally different values. Even within their subcultures.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Here since I went looking

that is what Foreign Affairs opened 2010 with

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/65987/niall-ferguson/complexity-and-collapse

Trends have accelerated in massive ways since that was published.

[glinda]

146. But where will I send my bill payments to since they all go to Texas right now?

[Warren DeMontague]

110. At least the river doesn't catch on fire, anymore.

Now that was fucked up.

[glinda]

145. I am glad that you brought that up. I would like to propose that everyone Dem move to

the upper tier States next to the Canadian Border. Some of you that own businesses and Corporations might have to hire us. We will have to kick out the rich Repubs that have moved into MI by the great waters but overall I think it would be a good move to become partners with Canada.

[eilen]

167. Our biggest challenge will be keeping warm.

Perhaps a large investment in geothermal energy as well as solar. I'm in a border state-- Canadian border about 2.5 hours, or heck, just 30 min to the lake and then I could grab a ferry (if one existed). We have had incredible amounts of snow, about 6 ft so far.

One thing is good-- we have lots of water and a canal system.

However, we are looking at moving South (even though dh does not like it so much) because of the work. The country there is beautiful but he runs into the same types as reported here, confederate flag waving, beer and gravy bellied, lips moving when they read, Nascar, Glenn Beck, Limpbaugh devoted sots in large wheeled trucks with guns. My dh shoots in competition pistol league when he is home, but he does not walk around with one strapped to his boot.

Our plan is to travel around the country and find the place that fits us best. I am leaning towards the Pacific NW. The weather is milder. If not, we could return to the PA/NY/MA region.

[eilen]

165. I'm already nervous about a visit to Florida

about the only thing that keeps me rational about it is knowing that this time of year there are thousands of snowbirds there from NY. When I go to TN, I try to stay in Nashville -- or one of the main cities. My dh is working in a very small town right now and the culture shock is something else. He says he guesses he is a culturally arrogant Yank. Mind you, he is not anywhere near the stereotypical effete Northeasterner. Compared to NYC region-- we really live in the sticks.

[dgibby]

176. So does this guy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a3sayDZz.QKc

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised, and another Civil War is a distinct possibility.

The question is, how does one prepare in order to survive?

I have always believed that one should expect the best, but prepare for the worst case scenario; therefore, I'm in the process of doing the following:

Moving closer to family.

Joining a CSA.

Growing(and canning/drying) my own fruits and veggies, keeping a few laying hens,

Stocking up on essentials, non-perishable food items, medical supplies, and things that can be used for barter, etc.

Using environmentally friendly products, such as solar ovens, solar panels, fuel efficient car (with diesel engine that can be converted to run on recycled veggie oil).

Installing a well on my property.

Converting the lawn to edible,organic landscaping/garden.

Building a self-sufficient community, including family and friends, each of whom will bring a different skill-set with them.

I would welcome ideas, additions to this list, including examples of what others are doing.

[Pathwalker]

178. Buy lots of books, including ones that would help for medical issues

in case you can't get to a doctor or hospital. Also, self-sustaining gardening, power issues, guns and ammo for hunting, herbalist bible is a good book, alternative heating, etc.
Whatever would work for you.

[dgibby]

185. Two nurses(me and a niece) in the family,

so we're covered there. Several hunters, lots of guns and ammo,too, plus several folks who can build anything. We're a fairly diverse group. I have lots of gardening books, but the herbalist bible would be a good addition. Thanks for reminding me! Saving heirloom seeds is also something I'm planning on doing.

As for alternative heating, I'd love to go with a combo of solar and geo-thermal, but will have to settle for either a wood or pellet stove for now, as the cost of the others is prohibitive at present.

I'm lucky in that both of my parents were raised on farms during the depression, and my mother left lots of info about surviving then, how they cooked on a wood stove,grew and preserved food,smoked meat,build a root cellar,etc. She even described how they used down from their ducks to make feather beds! My grandmother recycled their old clothes into quilts. Nothing went to waste, that's for sure.

[Pathwalker]

192. Thought of something else you'll need: A Greenhouse!

You can buy them, or build your own - there's books telling you how to do it. You need one for those winter months, and getting a jump on the growing season.

Edited to add: Plant Fruit trees right away.

[dgibby]

198. Thanks!

Got one(almost). I bought a 2nd hand 3-sided insulated sunporch that is designed to be attached to a wall of a house. My new property has a free-standing garage/workshop, so I'm going to attach it to that. That will give me a potting shed/greenhouse in one building. The house also has a sunporch, so I'll be able to use that, too. The kicker is going to be getting the detached sunporch from SC to Va. Hope the van is big enough or I'll have to make other arrangements when I move next month. Keep your fingers crossed that there's no snow or ice on the roads, as I'm driving into the mountains, and sure don't need that. Moving is stressful enough!

[Enthusiast]

189. Although at the moment

it appears that we have an abundance of game species, like whitetail deer, once things turn really bad these animals will be depleted in nothing flat. Poaching.

[Pathwalker]

193. It will take awhile in Michigan to deplete the deer population.

They're everywhere, and they're good at procreating, and meat from a deer will last awhile. Game birds(pheasants and wild turkeys, mostly) are harder to come by, but my area is also overrun by rabbits, due to the neighbor opening up his rabbit hutch when he moved out in the middle of the night, some years back. That's why keeping a vegetable garden will be a key to survival.

[Enthusiast]

197. I have commend the Ohio Department

of Natural Resources for their diligence in keeping the deer herd in check. Our herd only numbers a bit over a half a million. For this reason they are healthy and grow very fast. 18 month old bucks in Ohio crop land average eight points and 200 pounds on the hoof! Woodland deer growth in the S.E. and Southern Ohio is much slower, however. We also have an abundance of turkey.

[Pathwalker]

199. Michigan's DNR has been less successful. I almost got ran over by a herd

running through my yard a few years back. I had just stepped off my front porch when I saw and heard them running trough my yard, my garden beds and up and over my berm. 32 of them. They live in the woods across the street. I've had 2 die in my front yard from being hit by cars/trucks/whatever.
There's just too many of them here.

[Enthusiast]

210. We have two

in the freezer. They were gifts from hunters. I hope to get a third. I can no longer hunt. Wish I could. My wife and I feel much better about eating venison than the antibiotic and steroid dosed beef.

[eilen]

211. I recommend Carla Emery's Country Living Guide nt.

[martymar64]

99. A Yugoslavia scenario is also not desired

If we break up, I hope it is relatively peaceful. I know it can't all be peaceful, there will likely be bloodshed. I hope that it stays at a minimum. Once it starts, I'll pick the region with the most liberal government, probably California or the new Republic of Cascadia or New New England.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Yeah that be a nightmare

for a few reasons.

[newspeak]

116. The USSR collapse hurt a lot of people

especially the elderly. People were thrown out of their apartments and on to the streets. Also, corruption was rampant-the mafia gained a stronger foothold and corporations were like pigs at the trough.

Of course, it wasn't a major media extravaganza here, but there were enough articles about the state of Russia after the collapse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Absolutely

It wasn't a walk in the park... it was better than oh Somalia, or Yugoslavia, but it was no walk in no park.

For about 18 months things were really bad, and the country came this close to a shooting civil war.

[Pavulon]

39. Collapse... I worry about this.. constantly

[underpants]

56. With all due respect - I have the answer

read the article

[lunatica]

50. Well I do wish the Empire part of the US would collapse

Because that means other counties will throw out the 700 US military bases we've got spread all over the globe.

[Ikonoklast]

53. I love threads like this.

So very informative, that's for sure.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Chris Hedges, verily a credible authority on everything.

:boring:

[liberation]

58. The US empire will not collapse, it will wane...

... just like every empire does. And it will probably involve the same process as previous times: migration of capital, which has no national allegiance, to greener more profitable pastures.

The actual "collapse" will be global, and it will involve passing the threshold when oil stops being a really cheap source of energy and raw material for petrochemical products.

[sirthomas66]

62. I agree with that for a variety of reasons. However, I think the US could

be the first to initiate the global collapse.

[liberation]

73. It may or it may not be.

Alas that will be pretty irrelevant if the "collapse" is at such global scale.

I don't agree with the OP's approach, such perennial cries of wolf tend to be waaaay too politically motivated and miss the forrest from the trees. Empires come and go, that is a given. It is like claiming how someone is going to die at some point. Well, duh... it is a law of nature, at some point everybody dies.

The socio-economic system prevalent around the world is capitalism. and currently it is based and enabled significantly by one single natural resource: oil. The problem is that capitalism expects not only infinite growth but for that growth to be exponential, among other things because it is coupled with population growth which follow exponential curves. So it does not take a genius to see how at some point in the future (where it is near or far is also irrelevant) the exponential demand will collide with the finite nature of oil, as well as basically every other natural resource in the planet. And it will be then when the inevitable rigidity of the laws of nature will show their ugly head: every bubble will eventually pop if inflated beyond its structural capabilities.

That is a given regardless of whether the US, or China, or whoever is the prevalent empire when that happens. Ironically empire, just as capitalism, is unsustainable. Alas imperialistic/expansionist traits seemed to be the favored ones during our process of evolution. So maybe nature's selection processes do not work as intended when it involves self aware beings.

[sirthomas66]

80. So then China and India must have populations that are less

self-aware? Both have grown exponentially also, but their systems always seem to provide because of diminished greed and the respective governments ability to provide healthcare, etc for the low-paid populations. And then there's Russia. I would replace food with oil in post, now, or certainly shortly in the future. Well, I agree that empire is unsustainable, although China's has lasted a long long time. I believe they will walk on our ashes--unless there's a market for them.

[liberation]

83. Have you been to either China or Inidia recently?

Russia already collapsed, it is now an oligarchy.

I still consider oil the fundamental trigger: without a cheap energy source you can't harvest and distribute food at the scales needed to feed large populations. It becomes almost impossible to repair, maintain, and build infrastructure. Trade comes down to a halt. etc, etc. And even if we converted every single car on the road to electricity, we would still need oil in copious quantities.

And it will not really matter if Russia, China, or India are the ones calling the shots when that happens. The clusterfuck will be global. Unless alternatives which can be implemented at the required exponential rates are found pronto. Also there will need to be deeply systemic changes: figure out how not to have exponential growing populations for example.

BTW, technically I would be implying that China or India have more self-aware populations, if you're to properly twist the logic of my comment. :-)

[sirthomas66]

123. Okay. The main thought that struck out to me in reading your last

post is: "figure out how not to have exponential growing populations for example". I agree with that, although I hope your plan doesn't include euthanasia because I'm getting older. I don't need some Thomas Cromwell to come in and tell me its time to die and then be marched to the block. I haven't been to China since around 1978, and I don't remember much about it. My memory didn't work well for a while after Vietnam. Sorry, about the self-aware thing. I think I understand what you mean about that. I think it meant that the Chinese and Indians have more of an awareness for their stations and how they are a cog in a greater wheel, where Americans have moved away from that. Well, nice talking to you liberation; I don't get a chance to talk to folks who can think abstractly too much. The people I deal with are more linear. Well, I'm going to go finish the rest of The Tudors--my favorite family. After what happened today with the tax abortion I am somewhat evervated, somewhat disgusted, somewhat fearful. Good night to you, sir.

[liberation]

144. No worries...

I didn't mean to imply euthanasia or anything of such nature. I am just stating that if humans keep increasing their numbers at exponential rates, we will run out of resources/room needed to support such large numbers of the apex species on the planet. I have absolutely no idea how that can be dealt with, as fucked as it may sound it may involve limiting the number of children allowed per family or some such draconian measures. But as a species we need to realize we're in this together and no amount of denial can spare us from the ultimate consequences of nature's laws.

My point is that regardless of which country(s) may be at the top, when exponential demand growth and finite supply of natural resources collide... we just won't be able to "buy" or way out of it. So I think it makes sense for people to get that realization NOW while there is still some time, and act accordingly. I.e. plan our existence around the fact that we have to work with what our planet can provide us without shitting where we drink from. Or we can face nature at its cruellest. I just don't like that prospect. at. all.


Anyhow, sorry for the gloom and doom. The saddest thing is that the solutions are relatively easy and straight forward, it just involves a few people stop being monumental selfish dicks. We'll see...

[glinda]

147. And died so young too.

[Citizen Worker]

59. Some DUers may remember that the venerable Henry Kissinger said the US was in decline in the early

1970s. Within minutes of that utterance he was attacked from all sides. Seems Kissinger may have been right about one thing after all.

[FarLeftRage]

107. Venerable my ass....

he's a rotten motherfucker that has an awful lot of blood on his hands...

:puke:

[coalition_unwilling]

135. He's lucky he's not in the dock at the Hague for Chile 1972 and Cambodia ca. 1969 - n/t

[Mosaic]

79. A cooperative 21st century

The country will become one republic once again among a community of nations, a member. The "empire" is one of influence, not like the empires of old of conquest, and that influence is most definitely waning. The world will continue evolving as it is beyond a competitive 20th century culture into a cooperative 21st century one. It's a good time to be alive.

[justinsb]

97. Hmmm...

I hope you're right

The problem that may occur is that the U.S., after being the biggest meanest kid in the sandbox for 50 years is no longer the biggest meanest kid in the sandbox. The U.S. didn't "decide" to be nice, the US was outdone. There is a lot, a LOT of bad blood out there and ultimately whether or not the 21st century is competitive or cooperative is up to India and China - the US doesn't really get a vote on the matter.

[OneGrassRoot]

156. Thank you for another perspective....

I'm with you in that a possible scenario, if people choose to DO something about the changes and come together -- truly come together rather than just venting about the hopelessness and the imminent apocalypse -- is one that can be a positive future.

I'm a proponent of coming together in local grassroots, sustainable communities -- working toward that NOW as something that is healthier for us as individuals and our society is a positive thing. It doesn't have to be as a result of collapse/devastation/apocalypse. It can be the result of a more common sense approach to being on this Earth

And there are steps we could be taking in unison to fight TPTB and change the systems themselves, no matter how daunting it may be. Many systems will no doubt still crumble, and they need to. But we needn't have the apocalyptic scenario DU is full of these days.

I reject that reality that many are determined to create as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead, I choose to work toward compassionate, cooperative communities now.

Anyone who resonates with this, I invite you to join me at Wishadoo!

:hi:

[hulka38]

86. The wealthy are starting to tear meat off the bone

and it's going to accelerate quickly, imo.

[DemoTex]

96. Excellent analogy.

+1

[mckara]

I Hope He's Right!

The American empire is antithetical to our values as a people.

[mckara]

103. I Hope He's Right!

The American empire is antithetical to our values as a people.

[brettdale]

111. I gave up

On raw story a long time ago, theyb too doom and gloom, but thats just me, im more of a huffington post type person.

[TwilightGardener]

115. Better use those holiday gift cards pretty soon, then.

[libmom74]

117. it would be nice

if we could divide into two countries, the hardliner rightwingers could have their half and be as uneducated and fundementalistic as their hearts desire and the rest of us sane people can have a normal, halfway decent country that isn't constantly getting torn down by trying to compromise with mouthbreathers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. It is going to be more than two

and some will be dystopias by the way. Three to five is not that crazy, actually.

[dgibby]

180. As long as they don't get Virginia! n /t

[elzenmahn]

121. Hedges is a prophet and a patriot...

...read his latest, Death Of The Liberal Class. It explains what and why all this is happening to a T.

[gateley]

153. K&R nt

[democrank]

154. We`re definitely on our way down, if not out.

Nothing will change that except a dead serious demand by citizens to do so. We have let our "leaders" get away with so much beacuse all we do is nod and re-elect. It`s really frightening.

Think about it. In America, it`s a bad thing to speak more than one language but it`s a good thing to demand a tax break during wartime. It`s a bad thing to believe in global warming but a good thing to wiretap without a warrant. It`s unacceptable to have "socialized medicine" but it`s a good thing to give gigantic tax breaks to corporations who force their jobs offshore.

Take a walk through urban projects or chat with homeless children. Start counting foreclosure signs and boarded-up factories. Figure out how many drug addicts and pregnant teens we have. Add up our credit card debt and national debt. Count how many people we have in our prisons compared to other countries. Learn where we stand in math and science grades compared to other industrialized countries and while you`re at it, look at college loan debt compared to other countries.When all that`s done, think about how we actually have political leaders and others on television stating the benefits of torture.

We were glued to our teevees because an "abstinence-loving" teenage mother who happens to be the daughter of a halfwit, unfit vice presidential candidate was on Dancing with the Stars. The "stars", mind you. She`s 19 years old, but in America, just about anyone or anything can be a star or a hero.

We are disintegrating.

[eilen]

169. Ever read Townies in the NYT

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/author/elizabeth-dwoskin/

Elizabeth Dwoskin has done two posts so far and reminds me of a modern day Nellie Bly.

She illustrates the reality people are actually living in. It looks nothing like the sanitized televised version of events you see on the "news."

[OneGrassRoot]

205. Wow, thanks for this link. She's brilliant!

A quote in the most recent article was spot on:

"I’m in the professional equivalent of an abusive relationship..."

If I had money, I'd bet most people who must work nowadays, in any capacity, probably feel this to some extent. Self-employed or otherwise; there is most definitely a sense of quiet -- and sometimes deafening -- desperation.

Of course, the desperation is even more acute for the millions seeking employment, to no avail.

:(



edit for typo

[EmeraldCityGrl]

207. She should win a Pulitzer for this. Outstanding.

[FlyByNight]

155. Imperial collapse is certainly one way to reduce...

...the Pentagon (and related circles) budget(s). MIC enablers - both wings of the Business Party - simply won't do it. After all, war is good for business which, in turn, finances unregulated political campaigns (thanks to Citizens United).

In this regard, nothing terribly bold will come from this administration. There is yet more triangulation to come. Frankly, I'll be pleasantly shocked if the Afghan pullout starts late Summer '11. I suspect, at best, it'll probably end up as just another, low-key, re-branded occupation like Iraq.

On the domestic front, the eventual evisceration of SSI is next. Per Mr. Hedges, "Unless we begin to physically resist, they are going to solidify neo-feudalism in this country."

[Douglas Carpenter]

158. I have nothing but the highest respect for Mr. Hedges - he is perhaps my over all favorite political

commentator. However, I do think the collapse of the empire is more than likely a number of decades decades or at least several years rather than months away.

The U.S. is still in spite of everything the holder of the world benchmark currency and U.S. treasury bonds remain the global investment of last resort and are globally viewed as the final safe haven. The entire current world order is utterly dependent on American imperium and its threat of force. The U.S. is still in spite of everything not only the world's largest economy and the world's largest exporter. America remains by far the first choice immigration for peoples all the world. The former Soviet Union certainly never enjoyed any of these advantages - not even close during their best of moments.

But in terms of the long trends that Mr. Hedges mentions, I believe his analysis is quite correct. But it will take more time that what Mr. Hedges is suggesting.

However, war with Iran could certainly expedite the collapse of the imperial order as none other than Zbigniew Brzezinski has pointed out:

"I think of war with Iran as the ending of America's present role in the world. Iraq may have been a preview of that, but it's still redeemable if we get out fast. In a war with Iran, we'll get dragged down for 20 or 30 years. The world will condemn us. We will lose our position in the world."

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Vanity Fair, 2006.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was National Security Adviser under President Carter and a well known hawk and interventionist

[eilen]

170. By 2024 this will be a very different place. I bank on that. nt

[Odin2005]

194. Down with the empire!

[merh]

213. But who is the Reagan of this era who will demand

"Mr. Obama, tear down that wall?"

[JCMach1]

214. He must...