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The President says, "It's what caused the mess in the first place..."

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 04:24 PM
Original message
The President says, "It's what caused the mess in the first place..."
"What mess?" That is what most average voters would say, in my opinion.

The President needs to remind voters of the "mess" that he inherited because the voters in this country have a very short memory. They can't even remember yesterday because they have slept since then.

The President, in his latest ad, was explaining that Romney wanted to do more of the same thing that got us into this "mess".

I truly believe that the majority of Americans do not recall the "mess" that the President mentions?
It would behoove him to remind people just what that "mess" consisted of and do not assume that they know what he is talking about?
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Politics
I started remembering shit that Politician presidents did from Bush Sr (ahem Papa Bush according to Ministry) thanks to well Ministry and their NEW WORLD ORDER. so from Bush crap to Clinton then to Bush crap with the runs.... how anyone can forget someone stole the election twice I don't buy it unless Republicans are counting on people being that stupid :( and I don't think we are..
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I wish it were true...
that people are not that stupid.

But I think the Republicans know their supporters very well and they talk to them as if this whole mess was Obama's fault and he has done nothing to fix it, so it is time to let the adults back in charge...
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. people in general are that apathetic and ignorant of what caused
this mess, so yeah - Pres. Obama has to spell it out in simple terms.


Get it here --->
http://www.zazzle.com/what_is_mitt_hiding_romney_bumper...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. True dat. So apathetic that most don't even vote.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. the numbers are staggering, really. many we know who even like to talk about
what is going on, still don't fricking vote! :(



Get it here --->
http://www.zazzle.com/what_is_mitt_hiding_romney_bumper...
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-12 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. They did not steal the elections with good intentions in mind.
Just look at the results. The nation has completely gone to shit.

But still, people are persuaded by the massive waves of propaganda. The media has essentially saddled Obama with the economic trouble. Most people polled (if we can believe the polls) now think that Romney would have a better command of the economy than Obama. Take it for what it's worth.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. FDR had to invent the wheel. He erred in heeding Republican cries about deficits.
Edited on Wed Jul-25-12 12:29 AM by No Elephants
Until then, FDR was turning around the mess Republicans had made. Once he made that mistake, though, he needed WWII to get the country properous again.

Fortunately or unfortunately, sixty or seventy years later, wars, like everything else in the plutonomy, only work for certain people, like stockholders of Halliburton. They don't lift the entire economy anymore. In fact, aside from the 1%, wars now seem to make the economy worse. So Obama's economy is not going to be rescued that way.

Obama did not do the things FDR did, except for pulling back once the Republicans started screaming about deficts. (Yet, Obama had Cheney to quote: "Deficits don't matter.")

(In fairness to Obama, the economy was less global when FDR took over from Hoover. On the other hand, I am not sure what Obama even tried to do about that his first two years in office, although he is saying some things now.)

You can't run on change when you're the one who has been in office for the past four years. Right or wrong, I think most people think that the President has had four years to fix the economy and he hasn't done so. And will roll their eyes when he keeps repeating how bad Bush left us.

Romney says he knows how to turn the economy around. Whether voters believe him on that single claim or not is very likely to win or lose this election.

I think "Romney's the problem, not the solution" is the emphasis that will win. It is related to your OP point, just a different emphasis.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. "Romney's the problem, not the solution"
Cuts right to the quick. I think the campaign needs to use it more.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yet, they recall the mess when Romney blames it on Obama....
It's true.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. They remember the mess, but pretend to forget the causes of the mess.
Though, in fairness, I think it was thirty or so years in the making.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. However...
Bush and the Repubs did inherit a balanced budget and an actual surplus. So I think the taxcuts and wars can be laid at the feet of the Repubs.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't think you can look at those two things in isolation because
Edited on Wed Jul-25-12 11:30 AM by No Elephants
the policies of Reagan, Poppy and Bubba combined led us to the 2008 crash, perhaps nothing more than repeal of Glass Steagall and offshoring of American manufacturing jobs. It just took a while after Bubba's term ended for those things to hit the proverbian fan, but he planted those seeds.

And, say what you will, Obama has been in charge since 2009 and for the first two years had both great popularity with the general public and the largest majorities of Democrats in both houses that we have seen in years and greater than we are likely to see for years.

So, no, I don't think either the crash of 2008 or our current situation csn be laid at the feet of Dummya alone.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. But ...
While I agree about Clinton and Glass-Steagal, it was the over-all disregard for regulations and the taxcuts and the wars that led us to the debacle in 2008, in my opinion. That was primarily, although not solely, the fault of George W Bush and the Republicans. They have a greedy appetite and simply do not know when to stop eating...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Historically, that is not accurate.
Edited on Wed Jul-25-12 12:33 PM by No Elephants
Reagan began de-regulation, or lessening of regulation, anyway, and Presidents since, including Clinton and Obama, have continued it. I believe--though I easily could be mistaken on this one--that Reagan may have started by loosening up antitrust regs.

And, again, the crash of 2008 would not--could not--have occurred without repeal of Glass Steagall. The offshoring of American manufacturing jobs is hindering the recovery, but repeal of Glass Steagall was the cause of the sub prime mortgage/credit default swaps crash that led to the bailout.

I don't think citing a general climate of de-regulation either explains the 2008 crash or excludes Clinton and Obama. In fact, Obama left Bush appointee Cass Sunstein in charge of regulations.

As far as the wars, Obama "left" Iraq on the timetable set by Dummya and doubled down in Afghanistan, where we will be forever in reality and, in theory, until 2014. And Obama approved of the Afghanistan War all along. He campaigned on that.

Had Obama pulled out of both countries soon after his inauguration, my position as the wars might be different. As it is, I don't see
many hard bright lines, except that Obama claims he would not have diverted from Afghanistan to Iraq.


Anyway, I don't agree that the wars caused the crash of 2008.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. P.S. We may have to add Carter. He may have signed the Airline DeRegulation Act,. which
Edited on Wed Jul-25-12 01:00 PM by No Elephants
Ford had initiated. (Ted Kennedy led the hearings!)

I am going to do more research.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Of course, we have no way of knowing, but if Al Gore had been the President...?
from 2001-2008, I doubt that the crash would have happened, even with the repeal of Glass Steagal? However, repeal of Glass Steagal in the hands of an incompetent Administration was an explosion ready to happen. And it did.

Carter did a lot of de-regulation, it is true. He was a conservative Democrat, but he had a conscience, the best I can tell.

Yes, we can re-hash all of the stuff that Obama should have done and I'm not saying I disagree with you on any of it. However, you are talking about facts and I am talking about political reality. We are where we are. We cannot permit Romney to win or else, no matter what Obama has done or not done, it will be much worse. I am looking at it from a very pragmatic viewpoint, I suppose?

But we go to political battle with the Party that we have, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld...
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-12 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I know no reason to think that Gore would have, or could have, done anything to
Edited on Thu Jul-26-12 01:39 AM by No Elephants
avoid the crash of 2008.

Short of asking Congress to repeal Gramm, Leach Bliley, what could he have done?

I have no reason to assume that Gore would have sought repeal. Certainly, he voiced no reservations about it when Congress was contemplating its passage, or at any time since. And Gramm Leach Bliley is still the law of the land. And Bill Clinton is still defending it, albeit rather lamely for such a brilliant man.

But, you are correct that we have no way of knowing what Gore would have done, one way or the other. or even that he would have gotten two terms.

Yes, I agree that Carter had a conscience. I believe he still does.

I have always thought Carter was underrated as a President and I still do, though maybe that is wishful thinking. His own party was quick enough to throw him under the bus.

Anyway, it pained me to find yesterday that he had been responsible for a lot of the deregulation.

When the financial crisis was all over the news in 2008, I knee jerk blamed Reagan, having bought into the myth that deregulation was uniquely a Republican "thing," and his most of all.

Then, sadly, I learned about Clinton and Gramm Leach Bliley. It's sadly amusing that people cite both Teddy Roosevelt and FDR as the greatest Presidents ever, even as they steadly work to undo the signature achievements of those two Presidencies.

I was even more said when I learned about the DLC and the center right in general. I wish that I had learned about them before the 2007-08 primary and election, but I hadn't. Today, I cannot believe how far into the sand my ostrich head was then.

Politically, the last few years have been very difficult for me, as I learn more and more. True, I was far happier politically as a cross between an ostrich and an unquestioning disciple, but I believe that unreality is unhealthy for me.

Yes, we will go into the 2012 election with the Party we have, much as we did in 2010. And so will the Republicans.

Some Americans will be grieved over how far right their Party has gone and other Americans will be grieved that their Party has not gone far enough to the right--and not all of the first group will be Democrats and not all of that second group will be Republicans!

Damn the Koch brothers to hell for backing both the DLC and the Tea Party--and the same for all others who would make this country a one party system furiously pretending to be a two party system.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Turns out Carter, one of my personal Democratic heroes, had a lot to do
with deregulation.

And Clinton's contributions included repeal of Glass Steagall (aka Gramm Leach Bliley) and decontrol of telecommunications, which allowed ludicrous consolidation of media outlets, both huge detriments to our society, and the National Energy Policy Act (ditto).

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-12 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Let's not forget that those guys,
Gramm, Leach and Bliley were Republican assholes through and through. And Phil Gramm's wife sat on the board of Enron. It looks like Enron served as the new economic role model for the GOP future, with "new" third way Democrat assistance.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-12 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, but, as Senator Harkin has reported, Clinton lobbied hard for passage of the bill.
Edited on Thu Jul-26-12 05:10 AM by No Elephants
I would expect Republicans to want something like Gramm Leach Bliley because they are Republicans and it's what they do. I don't mention it because it is not remarkable in any way. ("When dog bites man, it's not news, but when man bites dog" etc.)

However, I would expect Democrats to be Democrats block it and a Democratic President to do what he was elected to do and veto it, not lobby for it, say he wants it on his desk ASAP.

Then the system would work and elections would actually matter quite a bit, as they should do.
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