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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 02:30 PM
Original message
It pains me to say this but...
Edited on Thu Jul-19-12 02:34 PM by kentuck
I believe DU3 has been more or less taken over by the right-wing or a very conservative group of people that call themselves Democrats. It's depressing but the evidence is there. If you don't believe me, check it out. They pretend that any comment against Barack Obama, true or not, is off limits. At the same time, they espouse some of the most conservative and right-wing viewpoints that you will ever see on a "Democratic" discussion board. I think they are doing great harm to our Party and we are headed to defeat if we follow their guidelines and opinions... This is just my opinion but I do not make it lightly.

on edit:
Also, they are incapable of thinking outside of the box and are some of the worst political thinkers I have seen in my 11 years on DU. They think in total black and white terms. They are unimaginative and lack any creativity. Most will say that they are just a different type of Democrat and progressives are losers.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep.
The only thing that makes me hesitate, even a little, is the term "progressive.' I do not think that word means what many seem to think it means.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think we can safely say that the DLC is not progressive.
moderate to conservative, in my opinion. More likely to endorse free trade agreements, cuts in social programs, tax cuts for stimulating the economy, etc..
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-12 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. ? General agreement on that is impossible. Did you read the post that I linked in Reply 1?
Edited on Sat Jul-21-12 02:46 AM by No Elephants
The DLC is the one that revived the Teddy Roosevelt era term "progressive" to describe DLC policies. Please bear in mind as well that the Progressive Party was the result of a schism between the right and left wings of the Republican Party in Teddy Roosevelt's day.

The whole practical liberal line of political cartoons is about the "home of pragmatic progressives" tag line of the Progressive Policy Institute, begun by a co-founder of the DLC.

Another DLC co-founder, Hillary Clinton, all but wore out the term during her campaigns for the Senate and the Presidential nomination. Obama has called himself a progressive.

It is precisely because of the DLC that I am so leery of people using "progressive" as a synonym for "liberal" or something akin to what today's center right Democrats disdainfully call "liberal."

In addition to the post to which I lined in Reply 1, you may want to check this thread http://www.leftunderground.com/threads/716-ALL-Democrat... and the sources cited within it.

That board has since been abandoned by its own to spammers, but it was a pretty informative board to read before that.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-12 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I think "pragmatic progressive" is sort of an oxymoron.
Of course, people can call themselves anything they like. That doesn't make it so. I remember when Will Marshall started the PPI and I remember Bill Clinton's policies as well. They may have been pragmatic but they were not progressive. They only compromised our Party closer and closer to the present-day conservative nuts Party. I think it is important that we keep the "ideals" in our Party, so we do not lose track of what we really stand for. Continually compromising with the right-wingers in a "pragmatic" way may make some temporary progress but it does lasting damage to our Party as a trade-off, in my opinion. I think both Hillary and President Obama are very close to the Bill Clinton style of governing. "Let's do what we can get done" and "Let's do what works" always sounds good but the results are not always good for our Party or our country. As examples, I think of the SS "tax cuts" and the extension of the Bush tax cuts. I think both ideas hurt our Party more than they helped.

So, you are right that "progressive" does not mean what many think it means.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-12 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. "Pragmatic" is not the crux, though.
Edited on Mon Jul-23-12 08:05 AM by No Elephants
"Pragmatic" is only an adjective, one of many that can be used to modify "progressive."

Given that the Progressive Party was started by the left of the Republican Party, I think "progressive" fits the political position of the DLCers, New Democrats, etc. perfectly, whether they seek to further their progressivism position by means that are pragmatic, impractical or downright reckless.

Out of curiosity, which political position do you think "progressive" describes?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-12 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I dont think DLC policies are progressive..
Their pragmatic policies have turned out to be very ephemeral and temporary...or outright conservative.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-12 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Which political position do you think is described by the word "progressive?"
Edited on Mon Jul-23-12 08:45 AM by No Elephants
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. At least we still have DU2!
Truthy to power!
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. But to be honest...
the only people that can read DU2 are those that post on DU2. The general public cannot link to DU2. They are forwarded to DU3.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. They can still link to journals at this site.
So does that mean there are no journals at the other site? I see the word journals at the top of the front page, but when I click to read them I have to log in to do so. I am not logged in there, so I don't get to read the journals there. Yet at this site they can still be read by others not logged in just as they could before.

I think you can still read the posts as well through old links. I was doing a search on google for a topic and found some back to 2003.

It's confusing.

Follow me on Twitter

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. They started the journals from a new beginning...
None of the old posts are there. I posted there and linked my journal in my sigline...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. I have wondered why there is no link to read journals?
I often liked at this site to read journals randomly. I found some very good ones that way. There seems to be no way to read them there?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Now, there's a truthy post! Glad we can still count on you, snooper 2!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. No Problem!!!!
Had to come check out my crazy wild anarchist happy-go-lucky buddies on DU2 every now and then!!!


You guys are just smokin'!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. I see it everywhere, and when you alert, it's poo pooed
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dude!
You know it. And what they're really good at is moving the discussion rightward.

When in doubt, ask their thoughts about election fraud.

Never heard of it. Or them.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. OMG
So glad to see you here.

It could be that in the long run one of the benefits of our occupation is that others will have a place to come home to if they wish.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. It pained me, but I would not transfer my DU presence over
there are clearly people there who do not share progressive views, and who displayed such clear cut right wing BS talking points while here. I just cannot be around that anymore...


Get it now, or one of a million other designs! http://www.zazzle.com/the_party_of_no_has_to_go_gop_rep...
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-19-12 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is Democratic Underground.... the other board is Democratic Establishment
I think we should ask Skinner to get a new domain for DU3.... let's call it DemocraticInNameOnly.com

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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. I agree
That's why I come here for a sanity check.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Election season..
I'm guessing a lot of people are cashing minimum wage checks (or even earning no wages under the "intern" scam) in exchange for pro-Obama pro-corporate internet spam.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. So, no one saw this coming?
I just don't get it.

We went through the looking glass when GWB was installed as the chimpanzee n' chief.

And the whole thing, our social reality bubble, was turned upside down and inside out on 9/11/01.

People are in denial about what actually happened and this denial is what makes the current absurdities possible.

Voltair: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

And we have and will continue to so long as the absurdities stand. Democratic control of the White House or Congress be damned.

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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. +++
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bikebloke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-20-12 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. I've found other places.
FU3 reeks of freeperville. I do my reading and occasional postings elsewhere. I still drop in, but less and less.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-12 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. Interesting
I haven't spent enough time over there to come to conclusions as harsh as you have, but I certainly have noticed that there is more pro-Obama sentiment and less anti-Obama sentiment there than there was on DU2. I will also add that I have seen ridiculous posts giving Obama credit for things that he deserves no credit for whatsoever, where the difference between reality and what the post claims is so great that I could classify it only as a brazen lie.

Could it be that the reason for the pro-Obama tilt and the kind of comments you describe is that we are getting close to a presidential election? The DU rules change somewhat as we get close to an election, in that criticism of Democrats running for office becomes less well tolerated. That gives the kind of people you describe license to say things that they wouldn't ordinarily have the courage to say, perhaps, knowing that they will be less likely to be attacked.

On the other hand, I would not go so far as to that DU3 has been "taken over" by these people. There is still plenty of people over there who are like us, and who fight against the kind of behavior you describe. For example, I posted an OP a couple weeks ago or so that was highly critical of Obama, which was voted by a 4-2 jury decision to be "hidden": http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&for... There was much reaction against that decision, and EFerrari posted another OP that complained about the decision to hide that post, and she received a lot more agreement than disagreement with her thoughts on the subject.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-21-12 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Perhaps I am too harsh?
Yes, there are still plenty of folks over there that are just "like us" but, dare I say, I do believe they are in the minority. I suppose that is what I find so depressing? Because I truly believe that the majority is on the wrong track and that there is no way to jump off the train unless you do it all the way. But I don't want to desert those that think "like us". So it is a situation that has me torn between two positions.

I could give example after example where I and others would be in the minority, such as the trade treaties being negotiated, such as tax cuts for the wealthy and those making more than $250,000, on war-making powers, on prosecutions of the big banksters, on the lack of progressive advisers, etc...etc...

Yes, I'm sure much of it has to do with the upcoming election and the desire not to say anything negative that might affect the election. As if not saying it will not affect the election? Is it under "control" of a certain clique of posters? I would have to say yes. But, I would add, you can still express your opinion. No matter how uncontroversial, some will shoot it down. That's the nature of the beast. You can fight them or you can agree with them.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-12 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. EFerrari is one of the DUers I miss very much.
The thing is, it is not all about Obama.

I only wish it were only about Obama.

Then, it would be over in another 4+ years at most.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-22-12 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. It will be all better in four more years?
I expect they already have another Trojan horse in the wings just waiting.

"Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours"
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-23-12 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. ? I did not say that it will be all better in four more years.
Edited on Mon Jul-23-12 08:24 AM by No Elephants
I said almost the direct opposite of that. IOW, we agree.

However, I would take small issue with "another Trojan horse."

If anyone assumes that the next Democratic nominee will be to the left of Clinton and Obama, he or she must be comatose.

Although, even as I was typing that, I realized that I may be wrong.

As I have posted before, I know someone who was graduated summa cum laude from Barnard and who reads many magazines and three newspapers a day. As of a year ago, she had never heard of the DLC. I had to tell her about it.

She had, however, ceased to believe in either of the two major political parties after Obama took office. Until then, she had believed that Dummya and Republicans in general were the only source of her dissatisfaction and election of a Democrat would cure it. (I think she still likes Bill Clinton, though, so go figure.)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-24-12 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. DU3 will change after the election
Criticism of Obama will be allowed. The DLC trolls will get quiet, and the leftier types and commies will be welcomed back.

It will start to look like a left-leaning site again...




...until the primaries

:-)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-25-12 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Skinner says criticism of Obama as President is allowed now.
I don't see a lot of things at DU3, but I did see that.

He explained that, in 2008, criticism of Obama was not allowed because the only purpose of that would have been to dampen the vote for Obama. Now, however, Obama has been President for four years, and criticism of his performance is legit.

But, election season or not, DU3 will retain its "Invasion of the Body Snatchers meets Lord of Flies" qualities.

The SCOTUS, no doubt tired of having to view porn movies to see if they had any redeeming value at all, came up with the "community standards" criterion for judging whether something was speech, and therefore protected by the First Amendment, or "totally' porn, and therefore unprotected.

Whatever one may think of community standards as a criterion for determining whether something is porn or not, it is totally against everything that First Amendment means to use community standards to determine whether political speech should be suppressed or not. If only speech approved by the majority is protected, the First Amendment is unnecessary and the ballot box would suffice. The First Amendment exists to protect minority opinions.

I realize that the First Amendment applies to government, not to message boards owned. However, I would expect a political message board to honor First Amendment values, especially one that is ostensibly for the left.



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