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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:18 PM
Original message
To all those men who don’t think the rape jokes are a problem:
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 05:32 PM by ThomCat
http://www.care2.com/causes/rape-jokes-are-no-laughing-...

To all those men who don’t think the rape jokes are a problem:

I get it—you’re a decent guy. I can even believe it. You’ve never raped anybody. You would NEVER rape anybody. You’re upset that all these feminists are trying to accuse you of doing something, or connect you to doing something, that, as far as you’re concerned, you’ve never done and would never condone.

And they’ve told you about triggers, and PTSD, and how one in six women is a survivor, and you get it. You do. But you can’t let every time someone gets all upset get in the way of you having a good time, right? Especially when it doesn’t mean anything. Rape jokes have never made YOU go out and rape someone. They never would; they never could. You just don’t see how it matters.

I’m going to tell you how it does matter. And I tell you this because I genuinely believe you mean it when you say you don’t want to hurt anybody, and that it’s important to you to do your best to be a decent and good person, and that you don’t see the harm. And I genuinely believe you when you say you would never associate with a rapist and you think rape really is a very bad thing.

Here is why I refuse to take rape jokes sitting down…

A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.



Please read the whole article. We have had some heated discussions here about whether or not humor is still just a joke when it targets people in reference to violence or humiliation, especially when it is about people who are already in vulnerable positions for one reason or another, vs being about people who are positions of power. Humor is a complicated subject. Of course, everything is a complicated subject. So let's see if we can finally have a discussion about this that involves more light, and less heat.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R, and a hide thread.
Good stuff, but I don't want to see the aftermath. I've been there before.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. i am told the page cannot be found. and i rec and still, shows up 0. i am sorry that
posters feel this is a post to unrec. but, i get why they do. and it isnt pretty.

thank you for the post. i would like to read the article, if you can manage an edit.
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Ptah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. here is a corrected link:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. i appreciate it. thank you. nt
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. TY
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Sorry for the truncated link. It's fixed now.
Thank you for pointing that out. :)
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Rape's not funny.
I think people who think it can be funny are very far away from it. As a man and unlikely target of rape, I did learn during my teenage years that the percentages of women who are sexually abused are just astounding, so even if it seems like something you think isn't a big deal because you live in a bubble on this topic, you should understand that if you tell a rape joke in mixed company, there's about a 99% chance you're addressing someone who has been or someone who knows someone who has been sexually abused.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Lets not forget about all the men that were raped as boys
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 05:38 PM by justiceischeap
who tell no one about what happened to them. You can't count on keeping the jokes out of mixed company saving you from this. Kinda like gay jokes, you can't always tell if someone within your group is gay or not.

edit for typo.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. That reminds me of a student of mine from back in 1995
who was so pale and white-blond he almost looked all one color. Whenever he was in an all-white group in which someone made a racial slur or told a racist joke, he would pull out his wallet and show a picture of his family: his mother, his stepfather (who had married his mom when the student was still a baby), and his four siblings.

His stepfather—who to him was just his beloved Dad, not “Stepdad”—was Black, and his siblings were all different shades of brown. He would show his family picture to the people in the group and calmly say, “I don’t believe you have ever seen my family.”

Very effective!

Offensive comments need to be called out, so that people feel “unsafe” making such comments no matter what the make-up of the group they are in. When offensive things are said comfortably in “polite” company (often disguised as mere jokes), that domesticates those things and normalizes them.

But when they are simply never uttered without the risk that the speaker will be called out and publicly shamed for saying such things, then that sense that something is simply unacceptable becomes internalized. Furthermore, the absence of such comments in young people’s social environment will also prevent them from growing up with a sense of tolerance toward things like rape, racism, and gay-bashing, even as subjects for joking comments.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. Boys/men
can be sodomized, not raped. Males can not get pregnant. Women can be both raped and sodomized.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. that's ludicrous.
Definition of rape: the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. vaginas
are raped. butts, sodomized. It's anatomy. I'm sorry you don't understand that. Ignore me, please.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. Wow, you need a serious education.
Sodomy is legal (in most places). Sodomy says nothing about whether or not the act was consensual. Rape is always illegal and both men and women can be raped. Rape is unwanted sex. Isn't that difficult, is it?
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
156. Further misinformation.
The rape is not the act of penetration. It's the violence. One need not be penetrated vaginally for it to be rape. One need not even be penetrated for it to be rape.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #156
160. You'd think that would be common sense.
And if any man had the hubris to say that women couldn't be raped simply because some idiotic organization didn't record female rapes, they'd be rightly calling for his head. Funny how some here think sexism is fine and dandy so long as it's directed at the "appropriate" gender.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #156
210. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #210
213. your avatar is so ironic.
:rofl:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. actually, the FBI does not include male rape and child rape in rape numbers.
it is an issue many have with the fabricated numbers of the FBI and women movements are working hard to get the FBI to acknowledge rape of men as rape, also.

the poster is correct, technically it is not considered rape.

i dont agree. i consider it rape.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. I too consider it rape and I think men and children aren't included in the numbers
because if it's something that only happens to women then they don't need to do as much about it.

As far as the other saying that anal rape is sodomy, then a woman who is raped anally isn't raped at all, she's been sodomized instead?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. yes...
i believe, and dont quote me on it, the issue with how the FBI and police across the nation no longer catagorize this stuff as rape.... atually sexual assault which i think it should be called what it is. i think with an object or anal it is not rape bringing the numbers even lower.

when people quote the rape numbers have decreased by a significant number, it just has not.

police departments erase it off their records, too, in different manners
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Charlemagne Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
82. Wow, seriosuly?!?!
I didnt know that. Thanks. I assumed when the charges were 'sexual assault' it was that someone grabbed their butt or boobs or something. It is troubling (though not shocking) that the simple switching words and definitions makes you think about things differently
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. i kept calling it rape and hearing sexual assault. i was offended. call it what it is.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:55 PM by seabeyond
then i was told that courts pretty much dont use the word rape. they use sexual assault. i thought sexual assault was exactly what you say.

it does bother me.

i call it what it is.
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justiceischeap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
92. Seems to me, not calling anal rape, rape, gives rapists more incentive
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:37 PM by justiceischeap
to rape people anally so they get a lesser sentence.

It's amazing in how many different ways women, children and some men in this nation are hated or disregarded by trying to redefine what is simple: unwanted sexual penetration of any sort is rape.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. from what i have read, seems it varies from state to state. but i am addressing what i read with FBI
statistics. and i know it has groups angry and they are working against this. i read recently that it looks like they are getting it changed. but there is also a push across the nation in the police departments to lower crime. they can easily do it with rape by catagorizing it in other manners.


U.S. News and World Report (April 24, 2000) said, ''facing political heat to cut crime in the city, investigators in the New York PPD's Sex Crime Unit sat on (thousands of) reports of rapes and other sexual assaults.''

One officer snarled; ''The way crime was solved was with an eraser.''

In 2000 even the FBI admitted that one district ''failed to report between 13,000 and 37,000 major crimes.''

''A 2000 Philadelphia Inquirer report found from 1997-1999, of 300,000 sex crime reports, thousands of rapes got relabeled ''investigation of persons'' or ''investigation, protection, and medical examination'' – non-crime codes.''

''This puts one in four rapes in a non-crime category.''

Lying sure reduces rape!

http://www.whale.to/a/reisman5.html

more
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #65
89. Technically, it IS rape.
Whatever bullshit reason the FBI has for not including male and child rapes, it IS rape going by the dictionary definition OR the legal definition. Why the hell would anyone for one second think that wouldn't be rape? How incredibly daft.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. women org (i dont know what one) has been petitioning to get this changed
i read something recently where it sounds like they are getting it changed or it just has been changed, with the FBI. like last week, or two.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. Once again, what the FBI classifies something as is irrelevant to this discussion.
The comments were in response to the utterly ludicrous assumption that men can't be raped (apparently, that's considered sodomy) and that only vaginas can be raped. That ludicrous and stupid. Sodomy says absolutely NOTHING about consent. Rape is non-consensual sex. Period.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. in your opinion. once again, i think my original post had relevance
to the person i posted to

whether you feel it has relevance or not
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Opinion has nothing to do with it. It's a FACT.
I know you're rather hostile to those pesky things, but they exist whether you want them to or not. FACT: men and children can be raped by any definition of the word. Whether the FBI chooses to record those as rapes is entirely irrelevant. Dear god, the obtuseness I encounter on these threads is mindblowing.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #100
110. dear GOD... the hysteria. how dare someone posts something you dont want them to. nt
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:59 PM by seabeyond
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. LMFAO. Oh god, I needed that.
I'll get many laughs this week, but none so great as the one I just got seeing you lecture someone else about hysteria. You've got your PhD in hysteria, don't you?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. sheeeeit, your emotional rollercoaster is off the scale. what can i say. nt
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Punctuation is hard, isn't it? I don't know what you'd say, but I'm pretty sure...
it would be absolutely hilarious!

Case in point:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. calm down, eote. people are allowed to have differing opinion. really,
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 02:23 PM by seabeyond
it is ok. your world will not spin out of control. i assure you

deep breathes.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. If only you'd learn that, you might go far. NT
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. i always get two for one with you. nt
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. And by the way, only schizophrenics think that people can have differing opinions on facts.
You're very well entitled to your own opinion. You've made your opinion on tit birds quite known. You're not entitled to your own facts. No matter how much you think you are.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. That post you responded to was responding to the bullshit assumption that men can't be raped.
That's some of the most offensive and sexist shit that I've ever read here. Hence, it doesn't surprise me one bit that you'd defend something like that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
101. Actually, they have changed that.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/fbi-change-definition-r...

It is no longer restricted only to women.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
112. thank you redqueen. i had read something about it. wasnt sure if they had changed
or were working on the change. appreciate the info.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. My pleasure as always.
:)

I think I had posted about this when they were still working on the new definition. Glad they have now made the change.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. then it must have been YOUR post i read, lol. nt
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
138. It seems to me that your definition aids rapists
I hear over and over that rape is about power, not sex. But your definition as purely vaginal means that some guy can tie my wife up, and use any part of her body other than the vagina, and its not rape. Surely still some sort of assault, but not really rape. In fact, taken to its logical extreme, if what he does to her does not involve putting his penis in her vagina, then he can shove whatever else his sick mind can think of up there, and its still not rape. And that seems to me to be wrong on a whole lot of levels

dictionary.com has rape as "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person."

Sexual intercourse seems to fall in a gray area, defined generally as genital contact, or male/female sexual penetration for purposes of procreation. But it also can be defined as other "sexual penetrative acts".


In short, I think you are absolutely wrong. Little boys are raped. Plenty of women have been raped even when their rapist forgoes shoving something inside their vaginas. And even grown men can be raped, rare though it may be.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. deleted
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 04:03 PM by redqueen
sorry I thought this was directed at the person who referred to the FBI's definition.

I have no idea what femrap was referring to.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #138
217. Who knew
that anatomy was such a difficult concept. And sexual intercourse is everything??? It's between a vagina and a penis. Holy hell. Where is this ignorance coming from?

I don't care about what you think about 'power.' Rape is the unwanted penetration of a male into a female's vagina...and it's about humiliation and degradation in the most intimate way possible....taking what should be love and turning it into hate.

And to top it off, the male rapist can add sodomy to this. He can sodomize the women's anus.

Has this anatomy lesson helped you in any way?

The ignorance will now be ignored.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #217
242. wow
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #242
265. No shit.
:wow:
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thucythucy Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #217
287. Who knew that "femrap" wouldn't know how to use a dictionary?
Edited on Sat Dec-10-11 09:01 PM by thucythucy
From Webster's Ninth New Collegiate: "rape: 1: an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force 2: a sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception b unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat OTHER THAN by a man with a woman 3: an outrageous violation."

Since my Ninth is somewhat out of date, I checked the Merriam Webster Dictionary On-Line and it gives the same definition for 1 but under 2: "an unlawful sexual activity and USUALLY intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will USUALLY of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent."

Notice Websters says "usually" not "exclusively"--which is how you seem to be defining the word.

Herant A. Katchadourian and Donald T. Lunde, in "Fundamentals of Human Sexuality" says "Rape refers to the use of force or threat of force in conjunction with sexual gratification at the expense of an unwilling victim. The victim is usually a woman, but men are not uncommonly raped by other men in prison." It goes on to describe other instances of "rape" -- for instance, of boys by adult women.

And from "Our Bodies Ourselves" (which you would think someone who calls themselves "femrap" might think to consult): "rape, one of the most common forms of sexual assault, is defined differently in each state. Most state laws define rape as penetration with use of force and without the person's consent. Penetration in the vagina, anus, or mouth can be committed with a body part or instruments such as bottles or sticks." You'll notice OBO says "person" not "woman" or "female." Notice also that "rape" according to the editors of OBO includes penetration of the mouth and anus (hence the widely used terms "oral rape" and "anal rape.")

Certainly, the men I know who are rape survivors call what happened to them "rape"--not "sodomy." Then too, Nicolas Groth, who wrote "Men Who Rape" and was director of the sex offender program for the Connecticut penal system for years and years, has written quite extensively I think on what he calls "male on male rape."

BTW, your definition of "sodomy" is also wrong, at least according to Webster's. "Sodomy" in Webster's is "1: copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal 2: noncoital and esp. anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex." Rape isn't even mentioned, and it certainly isn't defined as forced anal penetration of a woman by a man.

Given that Webster's Dictionary, various medical doctors specializing in sex, and "Our Bodies OurSelves" all disagree with your "facts"--you think maybe you might want to tone your arrogance down just a bit?
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
154. You know, I swore I was done with DU and would never come back
and then someone sent me the link to this post.

Rape is not sexual. It's an act of violence committed using sexual acts. And men CAN get raped.

And it's UNCONSCIONABLE no matter WHICH gender rapes WHICH gender. It's a vile, violent, hateful crime, and to claim that males cannot be raped is as offensive as claiming that WOMEN can't could be.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #154
212. +1
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #154
215. Anatomy.
Women have 3 orifices down there. Men have two. What part of that is so difficult for you to understand?????

Ignored for ignorance.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #215
232. what about the definition of rape is so fucking hard for YOU to understand?!!!?
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thucythucy Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #215
290. "Women have 3 orifices down there?"
Down where, exactly? You're saying a woman's mouth is below her waist?

Talk about "ignorance" of basic anatomy.

See my post above for everything else that's wrong with your definitions of "rape" and "sodomy."
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lbrtbell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-12-12 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #290
296. Women's three orifices:
1. Vagina
2. Urethra
3. Anus

That said, femrap is completely wrong about rape. Men are raped in prison quite often...and very few (if any) of these men have vaginas.
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thucythucy Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #154
288. Thank you for this.
See my reply to "femrap"--I think it's number 287. S'he seems misinformed and arrogant both, a truly dreadful combination.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
161. That has to be one of the most offensive comments I've ever read on DU.
Congratulations, that's quite an accomplishment to post something so vile and disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
179. Wow. I'm always amazed at how people jut make shit up.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
187. "Males can not get pregnant" and neither can some females so they can't be raped either?
Rape is forcible sexual relations, including but not limited to penis-vagina intercourse of people who can get pregnant.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
202. I am female. I was raped when I was 8 years old

It happened Years before puberty.
No risk of pregnancy.

Are you saying I WAS"NT RAPED!??
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #202
214. No, I'm saying women
are raped...they have a vagina. Men are sodomized...they don't have vaginas/vaginae. Women can be raped and sodomized.

And some women do start period at age eight.

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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #214
221. No
Rape is rape!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #221
262. And
sodomize is sodomize.

I'm ending this. good luck
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #262
276. Good.
Because you don't know fuck.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #214
231. someone please take away that shovel...
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #214
266. Jesus Christ!
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #214
278. Intercourse is the term used for vaginal sex and sodemy is the term used for anal sex
And rape is the word used when either vaginal, oral or anal is forced.

I'm afraid you are the one mistaken and it is likely VERY hurtful to the men who have suffered rape to have you suggest that they did not.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #278
279. Who in the hell
said being sodomized was fun??? Maybe anal sex with consensual couples is cool.

I know I live in a Patriarchy...and no matter what is discussed the Males have it Best or Worst....it doesn't matter.

So I am sure if a man is sodomized (or as you call it raped), it is much worse than any woman has to endure.

So sorry for interrupting your enjoyable patriarchy.

I'm so sick of living in this :puke: :crazy: :argh: :dunce: WORLD.

It was better for women back in the '70's than now.

We have DEVOLVED.

I don't know why I waste my time on such willful ignorance.

You go ahead and stand up and protect your widdle boys and shit on your sisters.
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #279
282. I'm sorry for you. n/t
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
211. that's one of the most ridiculous things i've ever read.
:puke:
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #211
223. You and me both, Dionysus
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #223
228. i've read a lot of crazy shit on DU Vanje, and rarely do words fail me...
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
216. You need to open a dictionary,sodomy and rape are different things.nt
nt
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #57
220. Under the new definition of rape the FBI is now using
Rape is not limited to forced vaginal intercourse. Men can indeed be raped. Coercion leading to intercourse is also now rape. The new definition does away with all of the nitpicking about rape vs sexual assault vs sexual coercion vs sodomy vs etc.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #220
261. Great, the FBI
which is led by men, tells women if they are raped, assaulted, sodomized, etc. Wonderful. At least the term, 'forcible rape' seems to have been dropped from the vocabulary.

And now these men tells us what sexual intercourse is. Wonderful.

So glad that I have the big strong dudes of the FBI there to tell me how women have been treated.

I give up. We are immersed in Patriarchy and to trying to explain that is a waste of my time.

Please refer all questions about how women are assaulted to the FBI...then we'll know how to feel....and how to describe the acts inflicted upon us.

So happy to know that the FBI provides women with the terms we can use. Maybe in a few years, they'll decide to change them again. So then women will have to return to their past horrors and redefine them according to the new FBI terminology. Yippee. I feel so much better knowing that the FBI has women's backs.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
277. Completely untrue, and completely ignorant.
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 09:47 PM by chrisa
And you're doing this in a thread that is against minimizing rape. wtf?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #57
289. Shame on you.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
292. That is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read anywhere ever
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. I must have led a sheltered life.
I can never remember anyone telling such a joke in my presence and for that much I am grateful. But then I have always been more of an artsy type than a he-man macho jock hammerhead.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Same here, I consider myself fortunate in that regard
I've never heard anyone make a joke about rape, that I can recall. I've heard countless racist jokes in my life, mostly during high school, but that's another topic where people assume everyone thinks like they do :(
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. You've never heard all the "jokes" about prison rape?
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. Now THAT I've heard on multiple occasions
I was speaking specifically of male-on-female rape
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. all rape is deplorable
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Agreed!
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Please apreciate how lucky you have been.
I grew up in a much more typically macho environment and heard those kinds of jokes kind of frequently growing up. :(

I also got this crap in the dorms in college. I volunteered with a feminist organization that organized to protect people against rape and sexual assault on campus, and educate people against the rape culture. As a guy who volunteered with that group I was sometimes a target for wise-asses who thought it was funny to taunt me with rape jokes to "teach me as sense of humor."

Since college it's nice that I've been able to surround myself with people who wouldn't find these jokes funny.

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Charlemagne Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
83. The only rape joke...
....ive heard is from a guy I went to college with (graduated in 06). He would always say "im gonna rape your mouth" or something when we were playing video games. No body laughed and we told him it was weird, but eh thought it was hilarious. I dont think he really respected women. He always cheated on his girlfriend (real nice gal too, she and I have been friends since elementary school). He blamed her for the cheating, saying that "if she had been at his place, or at the party, then he wouldnt have cheated." Yeah it makes no sense.

Anyway, he just graduated from med school and is on the sports-medicine staff of a major college football program that just got a new coach (the coaches shares a first name of a pope).

Here is the kicker. This guy was a hard core republican. He was pissed when his girlfriend got a job with a job with a company that collected signatures for campaigns because "she might help democrats get elected."

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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Well as the "he-man macho jock hammerhead" representative ...
... we're not all bad. ;)

But as that rep, I can say, I've never heard any rape jokes either - and me and my friends can be pretty fucking crude and childish.
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
47. W.o.w.
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Lunacee2012 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
68. The only rape joke
I've ever heard came from a teen-aged boy who told me that he wanted to rape me in my own front yard. Well it was more of a threat than a joke I guess....
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
269. I can't say I have "never" heard a non-prison rape joke. But only about once a decade.

I think it may be a new thing. I finally got stuck watching some Jackass last night. That sort of joke seems to fit them.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Why single out men?
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 05:56 PM by MellowDem
Women tell rape jokes as well. Indeed, I think there was a thread on Sarah Silverman telling rape jokes as part of her gig. I'm sure there are women out there who don't think rape jokes are a problem. So why just address this to men?

Your link doesn't work, but I honestly doubt that many rapes happen due to people telling rape jokes. I doubt it contributes to a culture where women can be raped either. Most times I've heard rape jokes, it is through media. The last time I heard a rape joke was the Sarah Silverman thread. I do remember a girl in college who would tell rape jokes, and I later found out she had been raped herself (she never reported it). What do you say to her? I'm glad you admit this is a complicated topic, but your approach seems incredibly overly-simplistic and targeted at men.

Any proof that rape jokes are widespread? And isn't context everything? The rape jokes I have heard from the Sarah Silverman thread are dark humor, just like many other jokes on dark topics. Humor is one way a lot of people deal with and comment on horrible parts of life or society. Many people may not find them funny, but I think it's quite a stretch to say that they cause rapes or create a culture where rapes occur, much less convince rapists that all men are rapists. I think that let's the individual rapist off the hook. I think a possible point of such jokes is to actually attack such cultures that allow rape. It brings something to the forefront that is usually never talked about and talks about it in blunt ways. It reminds us of a problem we never want to think about.

My grandparents generation never would tell rape jokes and thinks my generation is as crude and rude as possible, but as the years have passed, many of the family secrets have come out, and it ain't pretty. It wasn't rape jokes that allowed such a culture of complicity and silence, but rather views of gender roles and a culture of hiding "taboo" subjects.

I don't think many people tell dark humor jokes that others may misunderstand or find offensive. Most people tell such jokes only the company of close friends they know well and who know them and their type of humor well. Some of the jokes about rape I do hear through the media are usually jokes of men getting raped in jail, usually rapists getting raped in jail.

I'm not convinced that rape jokes are widespread enough to be a "problem" and I have seen no evidence that suggests rape jokes cause rapists to think raping is OK.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I am guessing we'll be exposed to jokes about raping little boys in showers...
since it's in the news everyday. Do the same standards apply?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. of course we will and have had it happen already. the person was shot down pretty fast
by other duers and eventually the post was locked.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. What?
I tracked the posts that were deleted. I screen captured all of them.

So... just who was 'shot down pretty fast'?

I'm beginning to get the picture about you. It's not nearly as pretty as I'd hoped. So, who was 'shot down' and for what?

S'ok, no need to use the excuse about it being 'against the rules', you can PM it to me and that will be that. In the meanwhile, I'll keep these screenshots that took me about 3.5 minutes to grab. I know you're going to try to diminish that fact, but diminution is just another tool of yours, isn't it?

Your veneer is chipping. Please start dealing in earnest.

I asked you if Romulox laughed at Silverstein's "joke" you said he did, but he didn't. I believed you at first and even offered an apology.

But I know better now.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. wtf are you talking about now?
first, we will address this post you are throwing a hissy about. the poster made a comment about there will be little boy in the shower rape jokes to come. i made the comment, right after sandusky a poster did make a little boy in the shower rape joke and the duers were outraged. the thread was then later locked.

i have no idea or interest what all your accusations are about.

i dont know what you are talking about screen shots. i saw no screen shots. i dont give a shit about screen shots. the poster on the deleted subthread and i were talking about another thread if a rape joke is funny. this is the joke we were discussing

“‘I need more rape jokes,’ she shouted nasally before letting her fans in on what she called a comedy secret, that such jokes are actually not so ‘edgy’ after all. ‘Who’s going to complain about rape jokes? Rape victims?’ she asked. ‘They barely even report rape.’ There were no groans this time.”

i said that if you got it, it wasnt funny. if you didnt get it, you laughed.

that is all

that was how long ago with that thread. but when i posted tonight, i was not saying "you" as in the poster. just as saying "you" now is not referring to you. i dont give a hit what you believe or not....

you are too out there. i work hard at being sincere and honest in my posts and you do nothing but make up shit that i do not say or think. just enough

on so many posts, so many occasions, i have been so very patient with you and inevitably you go into baseless accusations and summations as if they are fact to the point of ridiculous.

if you think i am all that, then fuckin quit reading my posts.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I recommend 'coherence'.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 11:14 PM by The Doctor.
It's a good thing.

Like simply answering the question put to you instead of flabbergasting all over the place.

Good night.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #60
247. I didn't make any such comment. I know you didn't *specifically* say I did, but you were pretty
sloppy with your comments (not the first time.)
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #247
252. wtf are you talking about. you come into a totally different thread
and address a post of mine, when i was talking to a totally different poster about something TOTALLY DIFFERENT. what are you talking about now?

what comment didnt you make. what am i being accused of now.

ALL i said to you was, if a person got the joke they wouldnt think it was funny. if they thought funny, couldnt have gotten joke.

so

what is my sin
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #252
254. I just don't want my name brought into your "shower joke" subthread. Not hard to figure out. nt
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 10:58 PM by Romulox
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #254
255. then get off my ass and talk to doctor. i believe he used your name
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 11:02 PM by seabeyond
dont quote me, it is what i remember. if not, i am not lying, just didnt get it right.... and i said poster. i dont think i used your name once. he brought it up and would. not. let. it. go. again, talk to him.

had NOTHING to do with me.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #255
256. OK, whatever. I just don't want to be included. I apologize if aimed at the wrong direction. nt
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #256
259.  it was a very confusing time for me
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 11:30 PM by seabeyond
hence, my impatience. i was confused thru a lot of it.

and no apology necessary. thanks
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zinnisking Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
166. Was it the one about Michael Jackson consisting mostly of plastic?
He was going to get melted down and formed into Legos so little boys could play with him for once?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #166
169. eew. no. i dont remember the joke but had something to do with sandusky and boys in shower. nt
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
246. It's worth pointing out that despite my name coming up, I did NOT make the joke to which this poster
refers.

This isn't the first time that seabeyond has "misremembered" what I've said, either. :hi:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #246
249. nooooooo. the poster said something about shower jokes coming up
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 10:49 PM by seabeyond
i told the poster it already happened. it had nothing to do with you. nothing. doctor brought you in at this point. the other subthread had been deleted. he assumes. he thought i was talking about something else. i was talking about sandusky. the poster i assumed talking boys in shower, was talking sandusky. i said a poster made a sandusky joke about kids in a shower. duers were all over the poster. the thread was locked.

i NEVER SAID you made this joke.

geezus.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #249
250. OK, thanks for clearing it up. Because my name got dragged into it, somehow. nt
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Of course. And prison rape. And other situations. Of course the same standards apply
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. There's a corrected link above and I think you should read
the article. It may help you to understand the problem with your argument. It's the same reason why it's wrong to listen silently to racist jokes or laugh at them or gay jokes or disabled jokes, etc. By silence or laughter, we help to condone the action and imply assent to beliefs expressed in the joke or comments.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Most of the humor on comedy central...
when it comes to late night stand-up comics, are nothing but racist jokes. But I don't think such jokes condone racism or are meant to. Just the opposite many times, or they are simply current social commentary or a meme that's popular or a pop-culture reference.

A lot of comedy is based around stereotyping whole groups, but are really subtley poking fun at the idea of bigotry as well as different groups of people. I just have a hard time believing, and haven't seen evidence to make be believe, that such jokes cause more racism or promote hate crimes.

I was able to read the article, but I guess I still fail to see how context isn't everything. If the joke is meant to degrade women or men and promote the idea rape is OK, then sure, speak up. But when I've heard rape jokes, it is dark humor meant to illustrate the problem of rape, or, it is revenge humor, where rape is the (sometimes ironic) punishment for someone who has done something bad.

I guess, to me, one way to illustrate this would be for me to not laugh at the Colbert Report. Colbert promotes racist, sexist, bigoted, elitist, etc. views as part of his right-wing persona. I laugh at his views because they are satire. Supposedly, some conservatives think Colbert is actually a conservative. Now, should I not be able to laugh just because some conservatives don't "get it"? It's not like those conservatives became that way because of Colbert. I honestly don't think many people don't "get it" though.

I don't think the problem are "rape jokes" but rather attitudes that promote a culture of rape, however they may present themselves, including some types of humor.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I posted this because I think they're widespread.
I've certainly heard them often enough to think so.

I used to hear them often enough to be regularly disgusted by them, and had to avoid groups of people, and places where they were common.

I don't hear them anymore, but you reach a point in adulthood where you only spend time around a small number of people you choose to be around.

There are people who don't think Rape is widespread, and nothing will convince them.
The same with sexual harassment.

If you don't see it personally, and don't experience it, then perhaps nothing will convince you. Others will feel differently based on their own experiences.

Your comment about people only telling dark humor jokes around close friends is way off base though. When I was still able to work, I was a corporate consultant. I worked in an environment with a lot of other consultants and a lot of sales people. No other group tells more jokes than sales people, and you would have to be deluded to think the jokes don't get dark or offensive at times. Sexist and woman-bashing jokes are an absolute staple.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. But are they that widespread in reality?
As for telling jokes, let's just say that some people have different standards of who they feel comfortable around and close to than others. Co-workers are some of the people most likely to tell dark humor to each other, because they see each other every single day. People see co-workers more often than their closest friends. And the work environement can get quite boring, so that humor is a common way to break the boredom, especially dirty jokes. I don't think it's an automatic sign that people promote everything they joke about. It depends on the person's style of humor and context.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. An ex-husband once told me, "if you think what they (male co-workers) say in your presence
about women is bad, you ought to hear what they say when there are no women around."

And he was very upfront in objecting to stuff like this, so surely some of them knew he didn't approve.

That means we can only wonder how bad it would get when he was not around.

I think you are at best naive if you believe this stuff is harmless and doesn't perpetuate a hostile environment.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. I can't believe you think there's any context in which a rape joke is acceptable.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 10:15 PM by BlueIris
Especially in the work environment. That is the one place inappropriate "humor" is most unacceptable. People don't have the option to leave their work environment to get away from vile shit like that.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #52
88. Well, like I said...
I've rarely heard rape jokes, and I've never heard rape jokes in the work environment, so I'm not so sure just how widespread they are. It's all opinion. And of course rape jokes can be acceptable given the right context. Any joke can be. It's all in the eye of the beholder to an extent.

I think a lot of people miss the point of humor. Humor can be a way to comment or deal with the nasty side of life. Not all rape jokes are about attacking the victim and promoting rape in other words.

Hell, there have been baby in microwave jokes, fetus jokes, etc. They don't promote killing children.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
122. But one in six people don't microwave fetuses.
One in six people don't think it's acceptable to kill children, and admit to it as long as it's not called 'killing children'.

One in six men has raped a woman, they just don't consider it rape. When you 'joke' about rape, you are sending a message to them that really, you're on their side. That it's just something you don't talk about, but everyone really agrees that date rape isn't really rape... that taking advantage of a drunk woman at a party isn't really rape... that if you're just 'persistent' after a woman says no, and she finally just gives in to avoid being beat up as well as being raped, it's not really rape.

It's all rape.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. i have read 3 different studies having different numbers stating 43%-60% would rape
if they thought they could get away with it.

three studies with different numbers college men would rape.... if they could get away with it.

that says something.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. It says a hell of a lot.
That's just the ones that would openly admit they would rape someone, it doesn't quantify the numbers of people who seem to be in denial about what rape even IS.

I've seen DUers state that sometimes rape isn't really rape, because the guy just 'doesn't get' that she's really saying no. Signals get confused, they said.

Shocking, disgusting stuff out there. We need much more dialogue about this.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
222. It says something that I know of several guys in college who DID!
And got away with it. All but two of the women they (date)raped dropped out of school.

Those two women were changed by it, and became very isolated, very cautious, and had no social lives and few friends at all after that. They were the butt of a lot of jokes among the fraternity boys though, whom they had to go out of their way to avoid.

Those were very ugly situations, and I won't ever be convinced that those were the only women. They were just the only women I knew about.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #222
225. yup. nt
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #122
164. Hmm, one in six men have raped women?
Not in any study I've ever seen.

Regardless, your argument doesn't make much sense. People joke about horrible things that still happen, like rape, and just horrible things in general. The fact that rape still happens doesn't mean all jokes about rape are meant to promote rape.

I think the argument that joking about rape somehow, someway causes more rape is analgous to arguments that violent video games cause violence. There is no evidence to back it up in other words. You can say that it causes more rapes, but it is just an opinion, and personally, I find the argument to be pretty simplistic and unconvincing. It's all about context with humor, and to ignore that completely makes no sense. I also think there is a lot of hyperbole supporting the idea that rape jokes are somehow widespread, or that rape jokes meant to promote rape are widely accepted and commonplace.

Sorry, but your argument comes across as moralistic shaming with no proof to back it up. You personally don't like rape jokes in any context, so you make a wild claim about it with no proof. It just reminds me of all the conservative religious groups logic. You claim that one in six men rape, and it's obvious you want to create the worst perception possible, facts be damned, to support your reasoning, and any evidence that doesn't support you is ignored. I bet many religious fundamentalists would agree with your argument. The part I don't like is doing so without any real proof, but rather as part of a cultural crusade.

I think some rape jokes can attack societal perceptions about rape in certain contexts.

As for something people just don't talk about... actually people just don't talk about rape. Period. Rape jokes can bring the issue to the forefront.

http://jezebel.com/5094798/is-a-rape-joke-ever-funny

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/when-is-it-o... /

I think to say that any subject is off-limits to humor is to fundamentally misunderstand humor. I think it's enough to say that men and women should speak up when anyone promotes something that hurts others, whether through humor or otherwise, but context will be everything.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. The study has been posted more than once in this very thread.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 05:12 PM by redqueen
As for jokes causing more rapes or promoting rapes, who made those assertions?

Your last sentence, I agree with, and that seems to be the entire point of the OP. I'm glad it was mainly directed at men because IMO it will only matter when men start speaking up, because women are often just flat-out ignored. Men, too, usually, I'm sure.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #165
185. The OP's link...
essentially says that rapists rape because they believe all men rape, and rape jokes are one way rapists confirm that all men rape. Rape jokes convince rapists that rape is OK in other words. If there were no rape jokes, supposedly less rapists would become rapists, I guess is the theory.

I don't know where the study you reference is, but there are many studies that contradict that study. Trying to figure out how many men rape others has to be nearly impossible regardless, so I don't see the reason to rely on just one study for such a hard to determine statistic.

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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #185
224. Where are those "many studies that contradict that study?"
:shrug:
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #224
237. Considering the original study hasn't even been linked...
I really don't feel like researching for you. Why don't you take a look?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #185
240. Link
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-th... /

Please link to several of the many, many studies which contradict this.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #240
275. This link contradicts the claim...
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 05:12 PM by MellowDem
that 1/6 men rape women. The blog references two studies, in one, 6% of men self-report to have raped or attempted to rape. In another study, 13% did. Now, how accurate is self-reporting? Who knows, but neither were 16-17%.

Another blog linking to another study:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/05/05/how-many-men-ar... /

So this study finds 4.5% of men self-reported to rape. It is also quite a bit less than 16-17%, which is what 1/6 men would be. I think the study must have been misread. I don't see the need to post more links when this link doesn't even back the claim. I am not the one trying to prove that 1/6 men rape women, so I don't have the burden of proof.

Of course, you also have to take into account that self-reporting could be wildely innaccurate, not to mention these aren't random populations being studied.

I think it's fair to say that we really have very little clue as to how many men rape women as a percentage of all men. To claim 1/6 do, I don't know where you get the data, and you'd have to ignore a lot of other studies that say otherwise.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-12 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #275
295. I would not trust any so called study that relied upon self-reporting as a rapist, ffs.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
66. wow, make this about yourself your family and men... instead of reading the thing and giving anyone
else;s experiences any creedence. Way to go, dude. We get it, it;s all about you and all the other poor guys.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
91. What bull...
Saying my opinion on this topic doesn't make it all about me. It's called a discussion forum, not a lecture. Get over your pettiness. The OP is the one who made this all about men, by the way. Freakin' hilarious.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. How about jokes about how guns are better than women?
#1 is (drum roll, please)

Because you can buy a silencer for a gun.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's the same as people telling racist jokes then pleading they aren't racist
That may be all well and true but the comment is still deeply, deeply hurtful.

Telling a rape/racist/sexist/gay/hurtful joke may mean you have a sense of humor.

NOT telling a rape/racist/sexist/gay/hurtful joke proves you have a sense of empathy.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. +1
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. nuclear.... you shine. i love that.
Telling a rape/racist/sexist/gay/hurtful joke may mean you have a sense of humor.

NOT telling a rape/racist/sexist/gay/hurtful joke proves you have a sense of empathy.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #31
74. Thank-you, lady.
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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't see who would laugh at a rape joke.
That just totally doesn't seem funny at all. Who would?

That said, thanks for posting the thread. It's definitely food for thought, and I didn't know the statistics cited. I especially didn't realize that rapists think we're all like them. It should be said front and center at each and every turn that we do not condone rape jokes.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Well of course rapists think we're all rapists.
Just like racists, cheaters, and thieves.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
113. Precisely.
Misogynists, too.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. Rape jokes are kind of like 'voter fraud'.

Scarce but wrong.

Thankfully, the notion of 'rape humor' has been shunned by decent society and pretty thoroughly marginalized. The only 'rape jokes' I've heard in the last decade have been about prison or told by Sara Silverman. None of them were funny.

What I find offensive is how so many of these threads start out with "To all you {insert demographic}". Yes, it's fairly specific and pointed, but the problem with the set up is that it gives the impression that there are just hordes of {insert demographic} that are in someway guilty of whatever offense is being addressed.

Par Example;

"All you women who think it's funny to castrate a guy..."

That's probably not the best example, because in the last decade I've heard more women laugh at castration 'jokes' than I've seen men laugh at 'rape jokes'.

Does that make women bad?

No. Of course not. But the intro makes it sound like a significant proportion of women get together and talk about male mutilation.

I wonder how a thread, written exactly like this one but about "All you women who think it's funny to castrate a guy...", would be received here? You see, that's how you can tell when something is inherently biased; put the shoe on the other foot and see how it feels.

The point of the OP is commendable, but feeding the fires of misandry doesn't do anyone any good.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
177. it's not feeding the fires of misandry, it;s about asking men to step up to the plate for us
way to miss the point, dude. Thanks.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #177
193. I'm not the one who missed the point.
I did get the point, I agreed with the point, and I also made a point of my own that went right over your head.

If someone posted a thread titled; "For all you women who think it's funny to castrate a guy...", the outrage on DU over the suggestion that women on DU laugh at male mutilation jokes would blow a server.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #193
200. false equivelency. if women were castrating men in large numbers, you'd have a point
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:39 PM by bettyellen
instead of having a point, you're stuck in denial.

men in our culture ARE exceedingly more violent (by ALL measures) AND many of them love to rub it in our noses. Many men who should question these attitudes are too chickenshit. So they make excuses.

Stop attacking the messenger, because that's where you become part of the problem. Castration indeed! This isn;t about your ego and your irrational fears dude, give it a rest.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #200
218. So it's okay for women to laugh at male mutilation because it doesn't happen often?

Wow. It's also obvious I'm not the one in denial.

I really do believe in equality. Women are equally as abusive as men. Just because they don't use their fists doesn't make it okay.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #218
219. no. i dont think it is ok to laugh at that. but i dont ever think hurting another is funny. nt
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #219
233. Not even a rapist?
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 09:54 PM by The Doctor.
Actually, we agree that causing suffering is not funny at all.

But I did do such a thing to some subhuman excrement that raped a friend of mine. I wasn't laughing either.

And no, I'm not proud of it either.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #233
236. no. not even a rapist. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #218
251. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #251
257. Did I touch a sore spot?
So, what you're saying is that women are nowhere near as capable of intimidation, coercion, or subjugation as men are.

You're saying that women are just plain 'victims'.

How sad that, in your opinion, women are simply not capable of dealing with men.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #251
258. Or, wait... are you saying that the emotional damage that women can do
is nowhere near the depth or severity of the physical damage than men can do?

Or are you saying that women aren't good at physical violence while men are excellent at emotional violence?

Your position is very confusing.

Why do you insist that women are simply victims but not aggressors?
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thucythucy Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
293. "Feeding the fires of misandry" seems
Edited on Wed Dec-14-11 03:59 PM by thucythucy
a bit extreme. Especially given headlines like "Frat Suspended After Distributing Rapey Survey."

This was posted on DU3 today (December 14). Seems a Vermont fraternity, as a sort of joke, handed out a form asking its members, "Who would you most like to rape?" Just some more future leaders of America, indulging in a little "off" humor, right? Or doesn't that qualify as a "rape joke" in your book? You think maybe these fraternity "brothers" were being serious about the question?

Anyway, show me an instance of a sorority asking its members, "Who would you most like to castrate?" and I might just see some fire behind the smoke you're blowing about "misandry." Until then, I just don't see any comparison.
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dballance Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. Point Me Toward the Rape Jokes Where men think it's funny. It's awful
I think you must be confusing Bill Maher's comments to Elizabeth Hasselbeck BEFORE anyone knew the other woman was abused. I know Maher can be acerbic - it's what gets him ratings just like FOX and Hasselbeck. But I doubt Maher would joke about a woman who has been abused.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
56. On things like this,
You're just going to get allusions to things like the "Rape Culture" on DU. You'll never get any actual evidence that the men around here are into 'Rape Jokes'.

There are some people that just need to grow up and realize that gender discrimination of any kind is wrong.

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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Here you go:
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 10:43 PM by BlueIris
An article about a well known incident making light of forced sex acts (and had people defending the 'integrity' of the 'joke'):

http://www.women24.com/LoveAndSex/SexAndSizzle/Why-Dure...

It's a link I found via an Alternet piece detailing several recent flare ups of publicly made rape jokes.

About Bill Maher--Hasselbeck went after him for making the following joke about Lara Logan, a woman everyone knew had been raped earlier in the year:

“New rule: now that Hosni Mubarak has released Lara Logan, he must put her intrepid hotness on a plane immediately. In exchange, we will send Elisabeth Hasselbeck.”

So clearly Maher would make jokes about a woman (Logan) who had been abused. Also--so what if he didn't know if Hasselbeck had? How is a joke in which he refers to the idea of sending Elizabeth Hasselbeck to another country (where she could be raped just as Lara Logan was) acceptable in any way?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #59
93. Why can't someone joke about sending someone else to another country?
Christ, I'd like it very much if Hasselbeck were sent far away from here, why the heck can't someone make a joke saying so? Can you also not joke about wanting to send someone to prison? Surely people could be raped there, even if that isn't what the joke was about.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #93
226. Because what is supposed to make a joke like that funny
is that she's not being sent there to immigrate, set up a home, and live happily ever after. She's being set there as a substitute for the other woman, meaning that she's being sent there to experience what the other woman experienced, which was sexual assault. Oh how funny! Let's send Hasselbeck to Egypt to be mobbed by a bunch of strange violent men and sexually assaulted! Hillariaous! Then let's have her get arrested and possibly raped in custody! Wow, what a Laugh Riot!

If you listen to that joke and all you hear is that she's being sent to Egypt, period, then you didn't get the joke.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
103. Facebook refuses to take down comments or pages which joke about rape.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/05/should...

People joke and laugh about rape quite often. Consider yourself lucky that you've managed to avoid it so far.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
104. Also, post 73 in this very thread. (nt)
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
253. prison rape
Common jokes in movies etc. Just as disgusting and not funny.
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lbrtbell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. Joking about rape is like joking about murder
Some things just aren't funny.
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sylveste Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. depends on who's telling them
it's all in the delivery. as far as i'm concerned everything is fair game when it comes to humor, although sometimes you have to walk a fine line. i don't think i could come up with a good holocaust joke but who knows maybe someone else out there can.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. I can't believe you think there would be an acceptable way to "joke" about the Holocaust
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 10:10 PM by BlueIris
or rape. Some things are not "fair game when it comes to humor," without being in exceptionally bad taste. And even if someone could find a context in which "jokes" about trauma, sex crimes and genocide were somehow "funny," the article posted by the OP is about the impact those jokes have. Which is not a positive impact.

That article was written for people like you.
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sylveste Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
157. and what is the impact
i've heard plenty of "rape jokes" yet i've somehow managed not to rape anyone. humor is an art form and like all art forms the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. wow. so many men claim rape jokes just are not told as you claim you hear plenty
that is something to think about.

interesting.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #163
243. deleted
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 11:00 PM by redqueen
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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
134. no
:thumbsdown:
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. K & R
To those denying how prevalent it is?

A joke about getting a woman drunk to take advantage of her? A joke about "getting some" from a woman who doesn't want to "give it up?" A joke about sex with a child?

Those are rape jokes. And if you really understand that (deep in your gut, not just intellectually and abstractly), then your reaction to those jokes is going to be very different from that of someone who just can't grasp it emotionally or empathetically.

The people who just don't grasp what rape really means are the ones whose sense of humor is stunted and lacking--not the ones who realize that causing pain to people who've already been hurt just plain isn't funny.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. My friend who is a rape survivor has nasty flashbacks because of rape jokes.
Rape is NOT something to joke about, goddammit! :grr:
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I have a friend with similar issues.

It's a long story, but they did some very ugly things to her. I took it very personally because, well, let's just say there were very good reasons she was very special to me. I did stuff about it and that's that.

To this day, she can't hear the word 'whore'. She can't watch "Firefly", one of the greatest sci-fi series ever written, as well as a thousand other works of any kind just because they use that word. It breaks her just to hear the word, and I'm not talking about a weak person, but someone with skills and talents in the highest percentile... and those dearfuckinggodicanbarelyfuckingtype god DAMNED fucking pieces of human-pretending refuse DESTROYED something so beautiful just for the "fun" of it....

I can't even tell you how many times I've had to backspace over some of the things I've typed here. I know a sort of hatred that would destroy most people. I'm pretty sure I'm not entirely intact over it myself, but I retain reason, rationality, and I think I have some toenails in 'civility' still... barely.

From the day she confessed to me what had happened, and after all that happened afterwards, I can say that there is nothing funny about rape.

I don't treat people who laugh about women being raped very well either.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thank you for posting this
and for being on our side.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. I guess I've lived a lot more sheltered life than a lot of you people - I never grew up with or have
ever been around any group of guys who thought rape jokes were the slightest bit funny, or indulged in same. And I played HS sports and was a Frat boy! You folks sure do seem to find yourselves in close proximity to some iffy crowds.

What's up with that?

:shrug:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
42. k and r--thank you for posting this.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
43. Hmmm...don't know any male that would make 'rape jokes'
so you have me a little bit confused. Is this a problem in American society? I know domestic violence is, but are a huge portion of men into 'rape jokes'?
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Yes, they're everywhere... do your own research...
because no one here is going to bring you significant facts.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
111. This link has some examples.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/05/should...

I guess you just choose not to look for yourself. Must make life easier.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #111
186. I was referring to DU.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 06:50 PM by The Doctor.
I'm sure there are men who laugh at rape jokes just like there are women who laugh about male mutilation jokes.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
109. This link has some examples.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/05/should...

I'm honestly surprised so many people have been lucky enough to miss this kind of crap.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
46. Recommended. nt
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
50. When Sandusky gets raped by a monster, some people will laugh.
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 10:11 PM by Zanzoobar
I will be one of them. Laff and laff.


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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Dear God.
I hope you can feel good, laughing about crimes. I'm not defending the monster that is Sandusky, but I could never laugh about someone being the victim of a violent crime. That is terrible.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. Well, let me rephrase.
I get it.

Thus, it is my deepest wish that he experience tenfold what he has given to others, and that lovingly, the experience bestowed upon him from here on out is bestowed by mobs of loving angels who only love him as he has loved others.

Howz'at?

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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #64
72. So, you advocate rape.
There's no other way to see it than as an advocation of rape. It matters not who the victim is, that is what you are supporting.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #72
75. exactly. that is exactly what the poster is doing.
thank you
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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. No need to thank. It's not a noble thing to speak up when you see something wrong.
It's just what I consider the normal thing to do.

But thanks for your thank you. :hug:

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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
178. I hope they love him like he's loved others.
To quote Paul:

The love you take is equal to the love you make. I hope he gets a 10 fold share.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #178
227. an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 09:39 PM by Odin2005
Your morality is sick and backward.
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robbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
132. I don't think it's wrong
to wish that there could be such a thing as Karma, and that it would be visited on such people as GW and Cheney and Sandusky such that they would suffer as they have caused others to suffer.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. Thank you. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
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Zanzoobar Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
180. I absolutely love platitudes!
Thank you!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
53. Thank you -- and think THIS way of checking what you're doing is a wise one ....
Note: A quick and simple rule for language and behavior if you want to be a decent person:

Ask yourself, “who is more likely to be made to feel comfortable around me based on whatever I’m about to say/do? Rape survivors? Or rapists?

Who is more likely to be made to feel uncomfortable?”

If you’re doing something that is more likely to make rapists feel comfortable and/or rape survivors feel uncomfortable, then don’t do it!





That's from the article, of course!

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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
121. I loved this part
And it would make a great footnote to all discussions about potentially offensive jokes or art. There are jokes about rape where the "enthymeme" at play is not "hur hur rape is no biggie," but rather "oh shit that's fucked up."

The answer to those who doubt that good jokes can be made about rape, torture, murder, or genocide is black humor, where humor and real pain intermingle. Not every joke involves some brash obnoxious comedian acting like a tool.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #121
206. black/dark humor exists out of personal emotional necessity
Its purpose is to attempt to emotionally make light of an otherwise horrific thing in order to be able to personally cope with it. It is only understandable and permissible in THAT context and no other. Anyone who is NOT in need of emotional lightening in order to personally be able to cope with a situation at hand and finds anything amusing in black/dark humor are those that are so unempathetic to the suffering of others as to lack common decency and humanity.

Humor itself whether dark or light has only ONE single purpose - to AMUSE and to make LIGHT of something. To make light of something means to diminish its seriousness and importance. When no one is smiling along and laughing then it is NOT humorous, therefore NOT humor. If they ARE smiling and laughing then they DID find AMUSEMENT and LIGHTNESS in the subject. While there may be a side benefit of certain kinds of humor as a learning tool it is still the reaction of those hearing the "joke" that determines whether or not they mostly learned something serious and important or mostly found the "joke" AMUSING and its serious and importance was diminished. And when the "joke" is delivered it is those people that smile and laugh that are mostly AMUSED and found the subject DIMINISHED in seriousness and importance rather than mostly LEARNED something serious or important. If they mostly learned something rather than mostly being amused they wouldn't fucking be smiling and laughing and would find the "joke" NOT amusing, NOT diminished in seriousness and importances, NOT humorous, and therefore NOT HUMOR.


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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #206
241. Such purity, and so self-righteous!
Sadly however you don't really know what you're talking about. Humor has a multitude of uses, and to limit it to "making light" of something is to limit the realm of all that is comedy to crappy late-night comedy central reruns. Literature is rife with examples of works that have used black humor to rigorously examine or portray even the most horrific of subjects. And one reason why it works is because when done well black humor is unsettling, disturbing, and even genuinely painful. It's about as far from "amusing" as possible, so get off your high horse and fucking read a book or two, maybe.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
58. outstanding post nt
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
67. Along these same lines...
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:05 AM by CoffeeCat
I have noticed jokes and people making light of pedophilia and child rape.

In the movie "The Hangover", the most beloved and notorious characters in the film (Alan, played by
Zach Galifinakas) was a pedophile. There were several jokes about his desire to sexually abuse
children, and his fellow actors passed no judgment and barely said a word. Alan even took
an infant's hand and pretended to masturbate the child, and insinuate that the child was pleasuring
himself, "See! He likes it."

I found this to be so offensive because they made this character lovable and hilarious.

I'm sure pedophiles all over the world were happy that they were being shown in a positive light, but
it made me really angry.
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Corruption Winz Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
73. Personally.. I can see this bothering people...
Obviously. And I don't joke about certain things with people if I feel it will bother them or they tell me it bothers them. However, I'm just not someone that believes any particular subject is off limits as jokes all come from the same place.

Virtually EVERY joke comes from the same place. You're trying to be funny. People have every right to object. But, I, theoretically, have the right to make the joke. I don't find rape jokes to exactly be my "thing" so to speak. However, I can laugh if it comes from the right place and happens to be funny.

One of my favorite comedians of all time, Louis C.K. made a rape joke that I found pretty funny..

(Paraphrasing)
I don't condone rape, at all. You should never rape someone. That's bad. Unless, of course, you want to have sex with them and they won't let you. Then, what other choice do you have? You can't just accept that. That doesn't solve anything.

Now, that could sound bad and I realize it's not for everybody. But, the joke isn't really about rape there. It's about a character (that Louis C.K. is playing) being so stupid that he thinks this is acceptable behavior. The joke is on that character, not the theoretical rape victim.

Most jokes, if examined, point to that same scenario. It's not really about rape. It's about seeing what sort of reaction you get from someone, when you're saying something that is morally reprehensible.

Now, I'm not trying to get anyone to enjoy rape jokes or any sort of "taboo material" if they don't actually feel it's funny. But to say it's wrong is to miss the point of actually telling the joke. Any joke, for that matter.

Saying that "You don't read because a book said it was bad for you," comes from the same place as that Louis C.K. joke in the sense that it's about mocking yourself while talking about someone virtually no one agrees with.

Just my two cents. But, I get where you're coming from.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. "you want to have sex with them and they won't let you""what other choice do you have?"
did you read the article? because to say this does not advocate rape, regardless how you twist it around, is condoning all that hear

ya, you want it. what is a man to do.

i am not trying to get you to not enjoy your rape jokes. but ya, it is wrong.
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Corruption Winz Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. It's not about twisting it...
It's about the reality of the situation. To say that it's condoning rape is to say that stand-up comedian Louis C.K. is actually fine with you raping women if you have no other choice in his mind. That is unrealistic. It's absurd, to be truthful. It's a joke. And the joke is on him, not theoretical rape victims.

And I don't think it's wrong. I don't think it's appropriate to joke about that under all sets of circumstances but it's not wrong. Might not be funny to all, but the intent is still to be humorous. Not hurtful. Virtually no person in their right mind makes any sort of joke about any serious subject matter with the intent of hurting someone. Unless they obviously have a problem with that particular person.

Rape is wrong. A joke is something totally different.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. i dont agree with you. i think words matter. i think the normalization
conditioning matter. i think hearing the penis is all important, matters. i think we see if in our world

i understand you dont gree with me. i dont agree with you.

that is pretty much where we sit
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
127. The joke points out the flawed mindset of rapists
How they think they are entitled to sex with someone after wining and dining them, etc. "What choice do you have?" Unless the tone really changes it, the joke reads as a statement on how absurd the rape culture is.


Merely mentioning rape is not the same as reinforcing the rape culture. This joke is an example of how humor--even humor that deals with rape--can be a useful tool in changing people's hearts.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. but i dont agree. i understand that is the validation for the joke. but i dont agree
it is either the intent or comes off that.

the joke men say.... woman might as well lay back and enjoy the rape.

i think that is purely and plainly about dismissiveness of the wrongs adn horrors of rape.

i understand what you are saying. i dont agree with what you are saying. i really think it is just an excuse to laugh at the expense of a rape victim. personally i am appalled at that. i cannot imagine myself ever finding a way to laugh at a rape victim.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #133
137. I haven't seen how it was delivered.
So maybe I'm wrong. Just one interpretation.

Do you think that categorically rape can never be the subject matter of a joke? Or art generally? Trying to see where you're coming from.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. no, i dont think as a progressive and evolved civilized society, rape should not be entertainment
for society. there was a movie, the generals daughter. have you ever seen it? it was an excellent movie. the actress was ganged raped by members of her military group (i dont know the proper names for military shit). john travolta was in this movie. very good movie. when she reenacted the scene of the rape for her general father who has dismissed her rape, her speech was gruesomely impassioned. very strong. very good scene, about rape and the dismissal of it. she was naked and spread eagle, tied down.

watching the scene, in the grips of her horror and what she was saying, my attention kept being drawn away. i didnt like the scene at all. later thinking about what really bothered me about it was while she was talking about this really really traumatic event to her father the photographer was shooting her at angles and had her move in angles and had her body oiled to where, it was not the horror of a rape, but a scene to turn men on in a fuckin movie. they took an excellent movie and turned this powerful scene into a fucking sexual turn on.

yes, i have an issue with us as a society using rape to be entertained.

i would hope a person would not be entertained by rape. i would hope a person would not be able to find anything funny in a rape joke. i know people do and will.

that is why i have to bottom line it to, i disagree. i disagree that it is meant to focus on the evil of the rapist. i think it is a cheap laugh at the expense at a rape victim. i think the comedian is out for a laugh and uses rape and people go along cause they are in the grips of a show or just dont give a fuck.

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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #133
151. A question...
If we alter the quote slightly, would it make your opinion different?

For instance if it were: "man did you see that article on the guy who raped his girlfriend? What a moron. Can you imagine what went through his head, 'I don't condone rape, at all. You should never rape someone. That's bad. Unless, of course, you want to have sex with them and they won't let you. Then, what other choice do you have? You can't just accept that. That doesn't solve anything.'"

For me it does. Mocking a rapist is not the same as making fun of rape.

When it drops back to implied, in a satirical form, its a little tougher. on the one hand, informed intelligent people will know what is being said. On the other, there are still republicans who think that Colbert is one of them.

Jokes about rape, diminishing the act or trying to make it humerus or ok, jokes at the expense of a victim or stating that someone else should be raped are wrong, as a generality.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #151
168. it didnt make it any better. i get the joke. i think it is at the expense of a victim, dismisses
the horror of rape. i think the comedian that resorts to that humor is a lazy comedian. and people that laugh at that is par with someone that will laugh at a "retard" joke.

i know there are people that talk about dark humor. dark humor to me, is being ugly for a laugh. that is not in me. sorry.

i laugh and laugh at comedians all the time. i keep laugh u.s.a on my radio. we watch comedy channel often.

but no, i dont think it is meant as a social commentary. i think it is a lazy joke at the expense of the person they are going after. and i dont see it as going after the rapist.

what are you going to do. you cant take that

is exactly confirming a constant notion in mens head, though yes.... the majority would never rape.



"· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior

In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)

51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;

65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.

43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse. "


http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

Normative standards about the acceptability of the sexual assault of women remain
confused. In a 1993 national study of 1,700 sixth to ninth graders, a majority of the boys
considered rape “acceptable” under certain conditions and many of the girls agreed (Wallis
1995). According to several sources, 51 ‐ 60 percent of college men report that they would
rape a woman if they were certain that they could get away with it. One out of twelve
college men surveyed had committed acts the met the legal definition of rape; 84 percent
Page5
of these men said what they did was definitely not rape

http://www.sanctuaryweb.com/PDFs_new/Bloom%20Sexual%20V...

51%-60% males would rape if they could get away with it.


i think where we are off on this discussion is we say few males (boy/men) feel rape is ok, or not a big deal, or only the scary ugly guy. i dont think that is a reality adn the study does not bare it out. i think young, males are raised in a manner, and girls too for that matter, that it is the way it is suppose to work, one reason or another.

we cant pretend that only the "bad" men rape. i dont think it is a reality. i think we need to be honest what we see in society.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #168
191. Interesting.
I think I understand what you are saying. I can respect your view, although I disagree with what I believe you are saying.

Personally I think, mocking a rapist is not at the expense of a victim, unless it is done poorly. I think that it is in fact, a positive step, exactly the kind of thing the OP article was about. I don't really socialize that much, nor watch much TV, and I have never heard a "Rape joke" of any sort, to the best of my knowledge. I would confront a person using a joke about rape in my presence. How would I do it? Likely by mocking the hypothetical rapist in the joke, making it clear their rapist protagonist was not just incorrect in behavior, but so far outside ok that they should be ashamed, a valid subject of mockery.

I do not argue with your studies. And there is a lot about it I will likely never know, even as a person interested in the topic, being at the far edge of "unlikely to ever be raped", it does not impact me personally in quite the same way. The facts are the facts, and it worries me. I have often wondered how the numbers stack up across different cultures. Are their social arraignments that actually change the prevalence of rape, or do we just define it differently in different cultures(IE, can a wife be raped, is reporting it socially acceptable, how much is hidden even in an anonymous study, that sort of thing)? What can be done?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #191
194. i see the "date rape" a little differently than a lot of people
and a lot of women.

i am not in line on this. i dont think that the guy is necessarily evil. that seems to be the context that we put the rapist in. i think what is happening today, with the date/friend rapes it is so beyond what we get to, because we do not want to believe the boy next door is capable. i think they are quite capable. and i dont think these kids are throw away, either.

you look at who was being asked, and these were relatively young men and boys/girls. they are just walking into the real world and their sexuality. trying to figure out with the rest of us. they are learning things from our adult world at a way too young age. and they are not processing it the same as an adult would. i think the reason we have so many missteps in threads like these are men are generally older and much older and they are beyond their younger days and are not quite remembering them. the men so get rape is wrong. have known women that have been raped. are comfortable in their manhood and sexuality. they get it. so, the concept that that large of a group of college guys would rape if they didnt get caught is foriegn, unthinkable to them.

the two genders are trying to figure out their roles in their sexuality and this is a confusing part that they are fed endlessly to the role of male and the role of female from our society.

this is why subjects like the objectification, privilege, and yes, sorry, even porn, are such an issue for women today and we discuss. it is all wrapping around each other.

if adults and parents especially, dont have consistent and occassional conversation to explore with the children on this subject and their roles, they are going to gain the info somewhere.... and it probably wont be pretty.

any, ... thanks for listening. agree or not, i dont care. lol. just listening or thinking is good stuff

hey... you always seem to tell me you are a bet of an isolationist. i am right there with you. sigh...
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #194
196. No, they're not different at all.
The victims of both are assaulted, violated, brutalized and left with the EXACT emotional and physical wounds, only, in the case of date rape, as in spousal rape ...... the issue of trust is one the victim will long struggle with afterwards. Often, for years. You need to get your facts straight.

Wow.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #196
198. so... even though i acknowledge immediately that i see it differently
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:33 PM by seabeyond
you are all over my ass.

i will reiterate. i see things differently. just as you understand/get? the comedian using that humor, i get.... we see that issue differently.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #198
205. Well the comedian I refer to that uses a forum to joke at the sickness of the mentality
of a rapist ....... as I stated I could understand, isn't going out date-raping anyone, is he??? So really there's no comparison. UNBELIEVABLE.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. do you really think i was comparing a rapist behavior/comedians behavior?
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:56 PM by seabeyond
or do you think i might have been comparing that in both occassions we have differing opinion.

really?

polly. you have not liked me for the longest of time. why must you follow me around?
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #207
208. You're kidding, right?
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 08:06 PM by polly7
I don't even 'know' you, let alone like or dislike you, or 'follow you around'. I replied to something I stated I understood differently and you responded by lying about what I posted.

No, you were comparing date-rape to stranger-rape and making it out to be not so bad .......... which is absolutely false, and an insult to every woman who's gone through it. You have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, and your views on date-rape are just as disgusting to me as would be someone telling me a rape joke to my face. Carry on, my stomach's a bit sick here.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #208
209. i understand. i get that. totally. hence, me saying
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 08:12 PM by seabeyond
i see it differently than most and especially women.

what part of that did i not clarify before posting.

i dont agree with your conclusion that i dont think it is "as bad". why do i know that is not the correct conclusion? i dont think that. you created that conclusion. you might draw it from my post. but i didnt not say it and am not saying that.

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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #73
117. I get what you're saying.
I'm a survivor, and I have heard 'jokes' that are clearly meant to point to the sickness of the rapist's mentality, and not the act itself. Even this type of dark humour can accomplish something, if only to highlight the obvious, which I believe most comedians who use it are trying to do. I've never heard a rape joke from an everyday person/disgusting pig/sick freak .... I'd have to rearrange facial features if I had, so I really hope I never do. That's my two cents, and obviously I'm as much against finding anything funny about rape as anyone.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
124. Nice analysis
There is a kind of meta-rape joke where the joke is that you would be the type of person to actually make a rape joke, and while they can work quite well they require a subtlety most people don't have.

And let's not assume most people have or are even interested in that kind of subtlety. Most rape jokes are played straight, with the unspoken premise being that rape is just no big thing. That rape itself is just really funny, hur hur. These are the ones that would never be missed.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
130. Jokes like that reinforce the idea in the 1 in 6 men who DO rape
that it's really ok, and most guys get it, and are on their side.

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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
176. You're not going to get much by way of 'comprehension' on this subject.

See, 'reason' and 'comprehension' are the first things to go when someone experiences outrage over a subject. Even if the joke isn't about rape, if it uses the word 'rape', then it must be a 'rape joke'.

When 'outrage junkies' (which is actually what it is, they really are 'addicted' to the neurochemistry of righteousness) get a hold of an issue, anyone who doesn't absolutely agree with them becomes tantamount to a perpetrator or criminal. You, believe it or now, have just 'condoned rape jokes', and therefore by extension, you have 'condoned rape'. It's not rational, it's not reasonable, it's not really true at all, but you have to understand this about some people.

I hate sexism, so when I see people on DU get together for some good ol' male-bashing, I can't help but mention something. That makes me 'sexist', I've been told. When someone stands up for women, they're 'heroic', on the other hand.

We had a thread here where supposedly 'civilized liberals' were calling for the beating or summary execution of a man for saying he wanted to have sex with a girl and then asking when the mother could 'sign her off' for marriage. He didn't actually hurt anyone, and no one knew what culture he grew up in. I totally understood the sentiment of wanting to hurt him, but when I dared to say that his perverse inquiry was not deserving of death, guess what I became?

Yes, I was actually called a pedophile.

Now here's the funny part; Did anyone call for the beating or execution of any of the women who had sex with underage teens?

Nope, not a one.

Double standards; get used to them.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #73
263. I imagine many people place a higher priority on vulgarity
"I'm just not someone that believes any particular subject is off limits as jokes all come from the same place..."

I imagine many people place a higher priority on vulgarity than on courtesy, tolerance and respect, regardless of how it may be rationalized... the justifications for it are as old as humanity.


"But, I, theoretically, have the right to make the joke...."
I certainly don't think anyone is denying you that right or saying you do not have that ability, yes? Simply critiquing its vulgarity and intolerance certainly doesn't appear to be any form of post-hoc censorship. It does seem though that invoking your right to tell these jokes are merely part and parcel of rationalizing it-- a little bit of melodramatic, self-inflicted martyrdom to justify the hurt that ss eventuality caused to other people.
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
80. Thank You, ThomCat.
I'm a man. I've never raped, will never rape, wouldn't befriend a rapist and think that a suitable punishment for rapists involves an anvil, a sledge hammer and their testicles (one at a time).

I would no more tell a rape joke than an ethnic, religious of gay joke.

Words DO matter.

PEACE!
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
81. Thank you ThomCat.
:hug:
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
85. The numbers don't add up.

I hate to point that out. Also, her first link doesn't work.

If 6% of college aged men have raped, and 14.8 percent of women (by the second link) have been raped, and 2.3 have suffered attempted rapes, that's a little more than three women per rapist. And the estimate of rapists has to be placed higher since those were college-age men, and you would think more men would "turn" somewhat later. Now, one would think that rapist would be attacking women a lot more, since as this post also points out, rapists believe other men are rapists. What would restrain them?

It's too bad the first link doesn't work. Wording can be very important in a survey like that, especially when you are trying to measure the incidence of a variable you're trying to evade.

And BTW, I never joke about rape.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #85
106. This link has the wording.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #106
267. Suppose you went into a survey, and you were maybe paid a few bucks . . .
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 12:50 PM by caseymoz
. . . and when you arrived in there, you find the first question is, "Have you ever falsely accused a man of forcing you to have sex with him?" or "Have you ever, for financial gain, spread rumors that a man raped you?"

Wouldn't you feel insulted? How much respect would you have for researchers? How honest would you be? How honest do you think most women would be? Do you really think most women would feel that they owed the researchers the truth?

Now, how plausible is it that they tricked many guilty men into being honest about sexual assault by not calling it rape? Were there any penalties to admitting sexual assault, or just lying on the survey?

Maybe researchers included this question, "Have you ever lied to somebody who offended or insulted you, or asked you obnoxious questions made to make your whole gender look bad?"

So, for the sake of argument, let's say six percent were rapist. Did the survey a control group for how many pathological liars they could expect? Probably, there were more liars than the six percent who said they were rapists.

Before you get into outrage in thinking that any survey on shameful, illegal activities queried with insulting question mean anything, also inform yourself that people lie about sex more than anything else. That scientifically demonstrated fact is the bane of all sex researchers. Sex is psychologically complicated, and people lie about it for all kinds of reasons. Remember that one survey where they asked males of college age how many sex partners they had in the last year? The average number was twelve?

Now the researchers who do these surveys know all this. Yet they put them out these spectacular results as though they have any scientific validity whatsoever. And women's groups simply consume them without question.

In fact, your source says it was college age men, and the numbers, between the surveys, still do not add up. If you extrapolate to the general population, and 4 percent of guys commit 5.8 sexual assaults by that time, there is no way the percentage of women raped add up to only 14.8 percent. Even if the guys were not all college age. In fact, if the men's survey was valid, the number of women suffering sexual assault has to be significantly higher than women are reporting. Like double or more.

So, either women are under-reporting it even in anonymous surveys, or men are over-reporting it when surveys are anonymous, or both. I could imagine why men would try to screw with the researchers; I don't immediately see why women would screw with theirs. Either way, the numbers are questionable.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #267
270. Of course women are under-reporting it.
It's much more soothing to one's psyche to think that it wasn't really that big of a deal that you got drunk and some guy took advantage while you were too inebriated to function, let alone fend him off. That's just one example.

Also, that source was a blog and they got it wrong. It wasn't "college age" men.

It pains me to know people are so seemingly so invested in this topic, yet won't read a fucking thing unless it's handed to them on a platter. Shows how much people really care.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #270
271. How do you know men aren't over-reporting it then?
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 03:58 PM by caseymoz
I mean if you presume women hide it in anonymous surveys, how can you presume that men don't exaggerate at it in this survey? I mean, men have been known to make up "conquests." Or are you telling me that men are inherently more honest than women, even about their criminal behavior? I find that statement as implausible as you do.

I can't help it that you linked me to the blog rather than the actual study and the blog misinformed me, or that your source was so uninterested that they didn't read the study and look at the age distribution.

So invested? I'm sorry you're irritated for having to provide sources when otherwise I have no reason to think this is credible enough for the effort, at least immediately. Otherwise, I would also be scouring Birther websites just to show I'm invested enough to be skeptical that Obama was born in Kenya. Or how about 9/11 conspiracy? Got to show I'm interested, 300,000 words and a month after I know it's bullshit, just so I have a right to skepticism.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #271
274. Right. Rape statistics are as meaningful as birther nonsense.
And no, I wouldn't think men would lie about forcing women to have sex with them.

Thanks for making it clear how very unseriously you take this issue. I'm done.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #274
284. You mean you're shutting me out of your ward?
Edited on Sat Dec-10-11 07:08 PM by caseymoz
A symtom of social hysteria is a contempt for and a suspicion toward those who don't show the proper, expected level of fear or outrage.

So, enjoy another friendly bridge burned and another step toward marginalization. I suppose it's better than being successful at starting a social hysteria like the satanic ritual cult "investigations" of the late '80s and early '90s, which started with feminists, and from which people are still in prison on impossible charges. Whenever you disregard scientific discipline and skepticism in favor of grasping fear and outrage, you put innocent people in danger, and perhaps, more danger than the object of your hatred and fear.

I take rape very seriously, BTW, but I draw the line strictly at hysteria and psychosis, and if that isn't serious enough for you then it may be better that I'm not on your visitor list.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #284
285. You compared researching rape statistics to researching birther nonsense.
If you don't see why that's offensive I don't know what to tell you.
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Lady Freedom Returns Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
87. You are right!
Rapist do think that all guys do it and they think that the gals really do like it! Both thoughts are wrong!
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
90. Thank you, ThomCat! n/t
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
95. The ONLY issue i have with the article is the statement that 1 in 20 men is a rapist.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:42 PM by ret5hd
edit:typo
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. It's true, they will admit it, as long as you don't call it rape.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #95
229. If you don't call it rape, but instead ask,
1) Have you ever attempted unsuccessfully to have intercourse with an adult by force or threat of force?

2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone who did not want you to because they were too intoxicated to resist?

3) Have you ever had intercourse with someone by force or threat of force?

4) Have you ever had oral intercourse with someone by force or threat of force

As you ask these questions in anonymous surveys where men trust that they cannot be identified, one in twenty will admit, answer YES, to one or more of these questions at least once.

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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #229
235. How big a study was this? Less than 200 i believe.
sorry, not convinced.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #235
244. Almost 2000. (nt)
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 11:02 PM by redqueen
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
98. Thanks for posting this here.
Very much.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
107. Any link to proof that rapists think all men are rapists?
I highly doubt that. They may think that they are "normal," but I doubt they think "everybody does it."
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Most tax cheats think 'everyone does it'.
Most people who file fraudulent insurance claims think 'everybody does it'.

It's probably true that not all of them project their lack of character onto everyeone, but I'm quite sure most do engage in this form of rationalization.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #108
136. Any proof of that? I didn't think so.
My GUESS (and I'm able to admit that it's just a guess on my part) is that tax cheats and insurance frauds think "I'm smarter than most. Watch me get away with it."

Whereas you're "quite sure" that most rapists rationalize that everyone does it, I'm skeptical, and I'll still like to see proof that rapists believe that.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #136
139. I tried looking for proof but there's so much stuff about rape...
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 04:01 PM by redqueen
I've given up for now. I wish the person who originally made the claim would have sourced all those studies they referred to.

As for cheaters thinking that everyone cheats, it's one of those conventional wisdom things I suppose. I hope you're as adamant about shouting it down when it's trotted out as the reason republicans or religious people believe some of the ludicrous things they believe (e.g. that welfare fraud is rampant despite all evidence, that atheists must necessarily be immoral because why wouldn't they if there's no god to tell them what not to do).
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Those are quite different subjects, but if they're being presented as facts
rather than opinion or supposition, then yes, I will call the person on that and ask for data.

No, rape isn't a fun subject to research, and I don't blame you for not wanting to dig through all the stuff.

I just think that since the person who wrote the article/OP has that as their CENTRAL argument: "But do you know who think all men are rapists? Rapists do." that maybe, just MAYBE, they would provide some data, some surveys and studies of rapists that proves the central argument.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #141
146. Yep, a cite would have helped.
I might take it up later and see if I can find whatever she was referring to. If I find it I'll definitely post a link.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
116. Uh, if they think it's normal. . .
doesn't that pretty much imply what you doubt? That they think their behavior is unexceptional, ordinary. Unless you're being overliteral.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #116
135. No, normal behavior doesn't mean ubiquitous behavior.
I think it's "normal" for people to play the lottery or smoke weed, but I sure don't think that everyone does it.

I'm still looking for proof that rapists think all men rape. I'd like to know where that meme comes from.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #107
280. when we look for moral justification we tend to believe that everyone would behave
like us, if they had the opportunity to. so honestly i think rapists with a conscience are more likely to think of all men as potential rapists, than rapists without a conscience (sociopaths).

i am not sure there are stats on this, but i think the theory on it is pretty solid.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
142. How's about a little devil's advocating...
I have fallen down stairs before... if someone made a joke about falling down stairs, that would not bother me. Is rape any different?
I've been robbed before... if someone told a joke involving burglary, I might laugh, and I do not think that condones burglary.

If a rape victim sees humor in a rape joke, finds some relief in a otherwise traumatic event in their life, would there be something wrong with that person?

My mom had a disability, but did not want to be looked at any differently because of it. Making light of a problem can be an indication that the problem is not a burden on the victim and relieve them of some serious emotional weight.

Of course it's easy to say "that's bad. don't do it" and I can stick with that idea, but I really think what is important is the victims' feelings about the matter. Of course every victim might have different opinions, so it's hard. Some people do not like crude jokes in general.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. Yes, rape is different than falling down stairs.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. " Is rape any different? " yes. rape is different than falling down stairs. nt
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. I see you are not responding past the first line
I should have predicted this.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #147
170. sigh... that line alone tells readers how clueless you are on the issue of rape
i read your whole post. this line, the first line pretty much addresses your whole post. sorry you dont like it. you said it.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #145
189. I took that first line to mean 'would the reaction of someone who's been
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:07 PM by polly7
raped to a rape joke ... be any different than the reaction of someone who's fallen down the stairs to a joke about getting hurt falling down stairs?'. But, I could be wrong.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #189
192. and still... i say, yes, it would be different than falling down the stairs.
i understand that you say you have been raped and rape jokes dont bother you.

i maintain that falling down the stairs is not the same kinda trauma as being raped.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #192
195. Holy shit, what a lot of nerve you've got.
I said I'd never heard a rape joke to my face and that I'd probably react very violently towards anyone doing it. I also said I can understand some comedians making a joke at the sick mentality of the rapist - which is NOT saying rape jokes 'don't bother me'. Get your fact straight .... lying probably doesn't help 'our' cause.

And, no shit sherlock, falling down the stairs is far different than rape. But that's not what the poster was implying. You just assumed you knew it all ..... again.

Fucking pathetic.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #192
197. this to me sounds like you are saying you get it and it doesnt bother you.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:30 PM by seabeyond
"I have heard 'jokes' that are clearly meant to point to the sickness of the rapist's mentality, and not the act itself. Even this type of dark humour can accomplish something, if only to highlight the obvious, which I believe most comedians who use it are trying to do."

i still can't figure out how what i said opposes that. because i did not mention the sexist/pig/? and punching him in the face part...

but, you understand why some comedians use this humor. hence, i assume, it doesnt bother you. if it does, please clarify and i will correct.

edit... you didnt exactly say "punch in the face" but i cant remember the exact. what was it, rearrange? regardless, because i said punch does not mean i am purposely "lying"
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. How sickening your games are.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #199
201. then dont post on my post. see how easy that is. every. time. i talk to you
you throw this shit out. every. single. time.

dont post on my posts if you have issues. you will do this regardless of what i say. you look for shit. dont like it, dont talk to me. simple.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #201
203. I politely pointed out that I understood something differently,
and it bothered you so much you had to lie about me saying 'rape jokes don't bother me'?

Nah, I didn't throw anything out. Always the victim, you are. Ironic.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #201
204. delete. dupe.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 07:47 PM by polly7
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #142
148. I seriously cannot believe ...
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 04:20 PM by redqueen
ugh, nevermind.

:banghead:
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
149. Straw man. Nobody jokes about rape except for ignorant plicks. nt
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. I've never heard a rape joke, but it was mentioned that Sarah Silverman does
She's accused of pushing the liberal agenda. I guess she's a plick.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. There are lots of people who do it, and not people you have to pay to see them from.
This article has some examples

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/11/05/should...


Maybe people should look instead of just assuming they know everything. That's really not so much to ask.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. You could also just say 'it depends on the nature of the joke'
It's obvious when w joke is meant to be hurtful, versus when a joke is meant to make light of a heavy topic.

I assumed, that it goes without saying that a hurtful joke is bad. That's not even debatable. If a joke makes light of a heavy topic, that might be different, is what I'm saying.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. I was addressing this persistent idea some men have
that nobody jokes about rape, or if they do then we should just ignore it/pretend it isn't happening.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. Ok sorry for going off on a tangent...
I just felt like opening myself up to ridicule, for some reasion I'm just in that mood. I'm on your side on this issue.

I don't let that stuff slide. For instance there was a guy at work today who was talking about how hot this customer was, and I was like 'are you single now?' He is in a relationship. I would not let a crude joke slide either.

Again, I thought we were talking about the Sarah Silverman types, but apparently that's not the case. Sorry for the miscommunication.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #158
159. I think it also applies to Sarah.
Her jokes didn't offend me, but they're rape jokes, so IMO they're on the table.

I'm more offended by those like Louis CK's which was shared above. Or Facebook pages like "What’s 10 inches and gets girls to have sex with me? My knife."

It seems that Facebook has now started taking this and other hate speech directed towards women, so that's nice to see. No apology for waiting so long and trying so hard not to do it, though.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #152
182. Or not get bent out of shape about something that's really not a big problem? nt
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #150
181. Don't know if she's a liberal, but I do know she's NOT FUNNY. nt
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #181
184. i have given her a try a handful of times. i dont see it either
and that has nothing to do with rape jokes. sophmoric. and a woman. i am not into that kind of humor. i expect her to say, .... fart, and everyone laugh. lol
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #149
171. poster 157 says he has heard jokes often? forget what he says. seems like comedians use it.
but good to hear it is not in your world.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #149
230. How do you know that?
Other people seem to have had other experiences. Perhaps you just don't bother to notice or remember them.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
162. I,m a guy who just put this article as my status on facebook
Thanks for posting this.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #162
173. you are a guy?????
all those wonderful pictures i have looked at, i thought you were a woman all this time. just a hoot when i realize how wrong i am.

and yea.... you get it. thanks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #173
188. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #173
238. Really? C'mon, you know you can't see
those pics clearly without wiping off the testosterone!

:rofl:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #238
239. bah hahaha.
that is it. that is what every single one of those pictures say.

i know.

i think it was your first post when you came back to du. what? 3, 4, 5? months ago. you were all excited to be back and talked a little. or maybe another time. i could swear you said something about your hubby or something and i put that in my head. silly me. i had a whole story going about you. and you didnt even know.

imagine my surprise.

but i do love your pictures.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-11-12 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #173
294. No, that's not 'sexist' at all.
:eyes:
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
167. Unfortunately, a lot of comedians whom I really enjoy reference rape in their material.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 05:36 PM by RandomKoolzip
To name just a few from memory: Patton Oswalt, Louis CK, Brett Gelman, Sarah Silverman, George Carlin.


As a man who considers himself a feminist, the enjoyment of these comedians' acts often makes me terribly uncomfortable. It does irk and anger me to hear the word thrown around so blithely, especially since I know so many women close to me, whom I love and respect, who have been raped, sexually assaulted, and/or abused by men. It's difficult to laugh when comedians use the word in their act as a punctuation mark, or as a vehicle for absurdist shock. I truly wish that comedians would stop using the word rape in their acts.

Having said that, I am going to try and explain why one of them does it - please do not misconstrue this as condoning the use of the word.

With Oswalt - a solid lefty - his use of the word rape needs to be understood contextually. In no way can Oswalt be considered pro-rape; he uses the word in such an over-the-top, almost Rabelaisean way, and in such incongruous situations and settings, that the humor comes from the use of the word in contexts that make it sound alien and strange, rather than dumbly macho or assaultive. For instance, when Oswalt, on his 2007 album "Werewolves and Lollipops," discusses the hypothetical making of the film "Death Bed: The Bed That Eats People," the absurdity of such a poorly conceived and plainly stupid film making it all the way to production provides context for the punchline, which is when Oswalt references his own follow-up, "Rape Stove." The line makes me cringe, but I can understand why he uses the word in this context: to underline the oddity of the former film getting made in the first place. One can see how using such a shocking word is a cheap laugh-getter as well, and like i said above, I truly wish he and other comedians i respect and admire didn't feel the need to "shock" their audiences into laughing through the use of the imagery the word conjures up. However, Oswalt's point in using the word is not meant as a lionization of male power, a la an Andrew Dice Clay, Nick DiPaolo, or Sam Kinison, who wring sexism for laughs and regularly present an image of male power (or at least males performing domination) in their acts. Oswalt's comedic persona is far different, and thus even more problematic; as a nerdy, smart shlub, he doesn't evoke the grim violence that a Clay or a Kinison does; with the latter two, the imagery of male-on-female violence is almost expected. With Oswalt, one sensitive to how rape is portrayed in the culture finds oneself more disappointed than shocked when he uses the word.

Of course, many comedians will use "taboo" subject matter as grist for their comedic mill, but the more i hear that particular word - and the reality of what the word represents - in the material of so many comedians, the more i get pissed off by it.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #167
172. Reading that joke by Oswalt,
I agree that that's fairly innocuous. Another DUer made the same point above: When it's clearly not in line with someone rationalizing or making light of rape, it can be funny.

That said, I think those cases are so few and far between, that they serve mostly as the exceptions that prove the rule. Most of the 'jokes' about rape that I've seen are more in line with the Louis C.K. one posted upthread, or the ones which are more popular on various sites than something like 'Rape Stove' (e.g. The one that ends with the words 'my knife'.)

I can't be sure but I suspect that that's the type of 'joke' most people are thinking of when they've reacted to the idea that rape jokes can never be funny. Perhaps if someone had posted about the "Rape Stove" joke earlier, we might have seen a little more leeway... there again though, these kinds of jokes do seem to be the exception (I'm certainly not too familiar with them), so maybe that's why they've been ignored, I don't know.

It's like the word "bitch"... when I see it used in a hateful way, I am offended. When I see it used in a non hateful way (e.g. Bitch magazine, girls calling their friends a bitch in a playful way, etc.) it's not so offensive.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. .
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 05:49 PM by seabeyond
i dont get rape stove. i even looked it up. better rape that stove before it rapes you boy. i dont get that.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. The joke is that there's this terrible B movie from the 1970s
called 'Death Bed: The Bed that Eats People." Oswalt, a screenwriter himself, thought the very idea of the film and its rather boldly stupid title so dumb and so worthy of mockery that he generated an equally stupid hypothetical followup, "Rape Stove." "Death Bed"/"Rape Stove." Furniture that attacks people.

Like redqueen said, it's RELATIVELY innocuous, yet the word still makes me grit my teeth.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #175
183. ok
thanks for working so hard for me to get it. i get it. it is so stupid, lol, it is nothing. but it is also not about a victim anywhere or really even rape, though he uses the word. i get what you are saying.

and i really appreciate your post showing the difference in the posters and it being about power, dominance. thank you
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
190. Thanks Thom for posting this! Not much more I can add at this late stage of the thread. nt
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
234. I believe that most men don't even KNOW any Rape jokes.
I can't recall even hearing one. ??????

But...I agree with the Poster.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #234
245. I would definitely hope so...
which would seem to make this request quite uncontroversial. However...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
248. I think it's fair to say that this entire thread was occasioned by a joke by Sarah Silverman.
How it developed into this is difficult to say...
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #248
260. Very doubtful.
I posted the OP, and I did't know about the Silverman joke. I've already posted that I've heard rape jokes many times in the past. Obviously, so have some others.

To think that this could come from one joke told once somewhere is a very interesting strategy for minimizing an issue.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #260
264. The article in the OP was published two weeks after the Sarah Silverman rape joke controversy
http://jezebel.com/5094798/is-a-rape-joke-ever-funny

"To think that this could come from one joke told once somewhere is a very interesting strategy for minimizing an issue."

A snide comment from someone who seems to have missed the major controversy. :shrug:
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
268. There are just some things you never joke about.
Rape is one of them.

The Holocaust is another.
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sylveste Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #268
272. caught an episode of
Edited on Fri Dec-09-11 03:59 PM by sylveste
family guy last night, it contained both a holocaust joke and rape joke and it's a light hearted tv show. hell there is a whole genre of jokes dedicated to dead babies. http://dead-baby-joke.com/
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #268
273. Tell Larry David.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
281. And this...
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #281
283. That woman is a mess. So glad no-one was picked up and charged for her lies.
Hard to imagine she worked as a psychologist.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
286. I love you even more for this post, Mr Cat
I'm on a thread right now on the HAOLP (aka HuffPo) re an article on Creepy Rapey Stuff - Who Said It - Rapist Or Lad Mag?

And of course, cesspool that the HAOLP is, up pops a plethora of guys with issues with women, who instead of quite sensibly thinking "This is creepy, and I hope that I don't know anyone who thinks like this about women", are on the warpath shouting "MISANDRISTS!"

Because, of course, the default is "Call out those who are rapists for what they are -> GAAAAH you called all men rapists, I call MISANDRY!!"

I'm of the opinion that the kind of guys who get real defensive about rape jokes, are guys who have, at the very least, considered it.
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thucythucy Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
291. Thank you for posting this
and best wishes.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-12 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
297. Great post, thanks, ThomCat!
:hi:
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