So what do you think about "The Pledge of Allegiance" in public school?

[Cyrano]

DUer Hedgehog posted an OP poll a while ago asking if you had prayers in public school. I didn't.

But to me, having to say the Pledge of Allegiance at public school assemblies was disturbing. Yeah, I recited it along with everyone else, but I had no idea why and it bothered me.

It was many years before I finally figured out why all of us kids were being programmed to mouth the pledge. Some might call it "patriotism," others might call it "tribalism," and still others might call it "teaching the young."

I call it brainwashing.

What is the pledge but a "loyalty oath?" It's the conditioning of young minds to think a certain way. It's brainwashing. And at that age, children are being forced to commit themselves to something they are incapable of understanding.

Same with singing the "Star Spangled Banner" (one of the worst pieces of music in existence). We start singing it in school and then stand up and sing it at ballgames and everyplace else some third party decides that we're going to stand up, put our hands over our hearts and sing.

Human beings may some day wise up to the stupidity and damage of all this if we don't destroy ourselves and this planet first.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

And, forced patriotism is the mark of fascism.

[condoleeza]

79. Agree completely, n/t

[Nye Bevan]

2. I don't really care.

I don't mind that my kids say it; I wouldn't mind if they didn't say it. I certainly don't stay up all night worrying that it is fascist brainwashing.

[HereSince1628]

3. Our Allegiance crisis is in BOARDrooms, not classrooms.

Our society has devolved to relying on jingoism to make us feel strong and important.

Vowing alligiance to flags and the government is basically a substitution for not having an authentic reason to feel like an authentic citizen.

[hamsterjill]

4. Patriotism

I see your point, and understand where you are coming from. For me, however, I think it's instilling patriotism. Now, I would go further to say that I think the Star Spangled Banner (yes it it bad, but it's "ours") does more to instill patriotism than the pledge, but I think the pledge has its purpose.

I don't like all of the hoopla over the "under God" language. Leave it, take it out...doesn't bother me. In that context, to me "God" could be defined as any higher power that someone believes in. Certainly someone who objects to saying the pledge should not be forced to do it.

[Armin-A]

7. athiests...?

what about atheists? should they just "sit out" the pledge because they don't believe in a higher power? i think the "under god" needs to be removed.

Unless freedom of religion doesn't include the freedom to not have one.

[hamsterjill]

13. So should we not have anything referencing a higher power?

I'm not trying to argue the point, but I am interested in your opinion. I believe in the separation of church and state. I happen to believe in God.

But what IS the solution for those that don't believe? Do they take precedence over those that do? Do we then need to remove "In God We Trust" from money, etc.? Is there to be no hint of religious values in government even though there is a long history of the belief in Christianity in the nation?

It wouldn't bother me if they did. But do we simply not having ANYTHING because it might offend someone?

[eShirl]

19. You try to say you don't care one way or the other, but you sound like you really do.

OK, to me, something like the Golden Rule, or perhaps forgiveness of those who've wronged you, might be an example of a religious value (or not, depending the specific religion). Belief in a higher power isn't a value, it is a belief; a religious belief.

[hamsterjill]

28. So what's the answer?

That's what I'm asking...

I don't care because I don't need to recite the pledge to further my own, personal belief in God. To me, that's a personal thing and it won't diminish my personal belief system if the words "under God" are removed.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. look no further than the US Constitution itself

which somehow manages to function just fine without a single mention of the "G" word.

[Armin-A]

42. this...

certainly things can be drawn on from religion as this poster mentioned with no problem as long as they are value that anyone can live by.

the golden rule is something everyone should follow

"under god" is an option

imo

EDIT: typo "every" to "everyone"

[Erose999]

30. I think all references to "higher powers" are just un-necessary platitudes.

While there may be a "long standing history of belief in Christianity" in this nation, there has been a longer standing belief in say, naturalism, paganism, shamanism, etc. Our government is in place to represent the people, not the religions. The people are free to represent their own religions and shouldn't need the gov't to do it for them.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. No. We should not, in the context of secular gov't. Is there a church shortage I'm not aware of?

because no one is preventing anyone from worshipping the fuck out of as many higher powers as they want (why only one?) however, it is not the place for our SECULAR government to give preference to ANY religious idea, and yes, the idea of a "higher power" itself (which just happens to be called "God", but really it could be any higher power. You know, it just happens we call it God, but, uh, we're not playing favorites ) IS a religious concept and as such does NOT belong in our government.

[defendandprotect]

65. Start here -- what "religious values" does male-supremacist religion teach?

We've had 2,000 years of this male-supremacy crap --

and the war on women continues!

Why shouldn't "In God we Trust" come off money?

Do you think that's something that JESUS would have supported? You really think

money was one of his "values"?

There's a longer history on this continent of a belief and trust in nature --

yet "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" have been licenses for the

few to exploit and destroy nature, natural resources, animal life -- and even other

human beings according to various myths of inferiority!!


Patriarchy's underpinning is organized patriarchal religion --

It's economic invention is capitalism --

It's pretty much "The Unholy Trinity" which has given us Global Warming -- !!


Let's stop worrying about how to keep male-supremacist religion going --

and start worrying about real things like Global Warming!!

[defendandprotect]

70. IF there is anything such as a "higher power" it is within ourselves ... not outside -- !!

Middle men are just that -- unnecessary --

[KamaAina]

86. Both "In God We Trust" and "under God" in the Pledge were added during the McCarthy era

as a response to "godless Communism". They belong on the ash heap of history along with the Berlin Wall.

[polmaven]

16. It has been made clear

that the words "under God" can be left out of the pledge whenever it is recited. No need to sit out the whole pledge, just leave out those 2 words.

I do agree that they should not be there in the first place, but do you remember the firestorm a few years ago about it? Ain't gonna happen.

[Armin-A]

43. a difference...

IMO...

I see at as intimidating and persuasive to those kids that would be saying the pledge. All the elementary kids that I know could not possibly have a grasp on this issue. You and I may be able to choose for ourselves as we have learned what principles are.

A child has not formed ideas and is still primitive in development. This is why children often mindlessly follow the beliefs of their parents.

Essentially brainwashing any alternative idea and mainstreaming the idea of God.

[defendandprotect]

69. "Under God" is OPTIONAL -- but should be officially removed -- !!

And very clearly, those who educate children are NOT telling that this is an

OPTIONAL phrase!!

[Lunacee2012]

80. This may be going off topic, but

did you see Rick Perry say on CNN that the Constitution granted freedom of religion, not freedom from religion? WTF?

[Armin-A]

90. care to link?

i just love the things my boy rick says. i hardly watch stand up anymore i just surf for republicans nominees talking

[Lunacee2012]

91. Sorry, I don't have a link, just saw it on CNN while channel surfing.

Are you from Texas too? I just have to ask since you called Rick "your boy". I'm more and more ashamed of him everyday 'cause he is my governor, even though I didn't vote for him. Between him and Bush, it is getting more embarrassing to call myself a Texan. I mean I love my state and all, but it's hard to explain why sometimes. I guess you just have to have been born here to understand.

LOL @ the stand-up comment. It's like Jon Stewart and Colbert don't even have to try anymore, the GOP does their job for them. For free even! Don't give up on all stand-up, Lewis Black and Patton Oswalt (I think I got his name right) are awesome.

[Armin-A]

94. nope from iowa

Yeah, I have been watching Colbert religiously lately because of them. I hear "breaking news another republican says something dumb" and I just can't wait to see how the comedy central duo puts it together.

I personally have never been to Texas, but I would love to visit sometime. Probably not much of the cities, but I have seen some of the most beautiful photographs of landscapes. The land there is so beautiful and unique!

[Lunacee2012]

97. Thank you for the "beautiful and unique landscapes" comment.

If you ever come down here you should totally check out hill country and the area around Kerrville. There are parts of the Red River and Lake Texoma that are nice in the spring, summer and fall months too; you just have to know where to look.

[Armin-A]

100. thanks

ill keep that in mind

[markpkessinger]

24. So, you think the robotic daily repetition of a loyalty oath "instills patriotism?"

I remember what it was like when I was in school in the '60s and '70s, and I suspect it is much the same today, where the pledge amounts to nothing more than some empty morning ritual, endured but not attended to or engaged on any significant level, and generally mumbled through by students who haven't a clue what the words even mean. And that, you think, instills patriotism?

Seems to me that a nation that conducts itself and treats its citizens in a manner so as to inspire genuine patriotic loyalty will have little need for rote repetition of a loyalty oath, and if a nation requires such repetition of an oath in order to instill patriotism, then likely as not it is undeserving of any particular loyalty.

[immoderate]

66. If you don't think it's indoctrination try sitting it out.

It's purpose in kids is to instill the idea of certain obligatory behaviors. They needn't understand anything other than something is required of them and they better do it.


--imm

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Your Words: "'God' could be defined as any higher power that someone believes in..."

and sure, that's fine, for your voluntarily attended 12 step meeting or whatever.

However, in a context of little kids and a quasi-mandatory recitation it's a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.

And believe it or not, not everyone wants or needs to have ANY "higher power", thank you very much.

[jeff47]

82. The pledge of allegiance isn't patriotic

In fact, the founders would be horrified by it.

The entire point of our experiment is that the government should serve the people. Patriotism isn't pledging allegiance to the government. It's the government pledging allegiance to the people.

[CJCRANE]

96. Good point. nt

[woo me with science]

5. Should read the Constitution together instead.

Got that idea from a DUer.

[Cyrano]

17. Great idea, but the Bill of Rights is shorter and more to the point.

I guess I wouldn't mind that being recited in school, as long as children were instructed as to the meaning of what it was they were reciting.

Then again, once they understood the meaning of the word "freedom," why would they have to recite it on a regular basis?

[woo me with science]

20. Why do math on a regular basis either?

[Cyrano]

26. Well, let me try this

Grasping the concept of freedom in this world, seems to be a lot harder than learning trigonometry.

[woo me with science]

29. I think...

you are right.

[Armin-A]

46. ......you have outdone yourself

Just love your post

[LibDemAlways]

6. I don't like the pledge either. I am a substitute teacher in a suburban

district which now limits the pledge to one morning a week. (Progress, I suppose.) I just think it's ridiculous to proclaim that we are "one nation, under God" with "liberty and justice for all" when the founding fathers specifically separated church and state, and whatever "liberty" we once enjoyed has been eroded by crap like the "Patriot Act" and "Homeland Security." As for "justice for all" - a complete joke. Special privileges for the 1% is more like it.

The lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner are just as irrelevant. Land of the Free? Uh, no. Home of the brave? Hardly.

What's even worse than the Star-Spangled Banner at baseball games is the singing of God Bless America. Just offensive.

[Armin-A]

8. +1

[DonCoquixote]

56. the star spangled banner

is a question, to ask if the flag is still weaving over a free land. If people understood that it was a question, they would answer it, and then actually put up the sort of vigil that would decimate the patriot act.

[defendandprotect]

73. +1 --

[treestar]

93. Your first paragraph got me to think a bit

Maybe that's true, but then it would be better to recite the ideal. Giving up on that because of failures would sort of kill the ideal, might it not?

[DevonRex]

9. My boys refused to do it because of the way we raised them.

We never said whether or not to recite the Pledge. But we did teach them about the dangers of just going along with everyone else, and the importance of freedom of religion and speech. They made their own decisions and we congratulated them.

Even had to explain this to their friends who, of course, all stood up and recited it. Their friends understood and didn't bug them about it after that.

[DCKit]

10. You aint't wrong. The unreccers have proven that. nt

[LeftishBrit]

11. Well, in my English school, we did have prayers (technically compulsory in British schools) but

never had any patriotic statement - we don't have a Pledge of Allegiance, but we didn't e.g. sing the National Anthem either.

But I spent a few months in Edmonton, Canada as a child in the 70s, and at my school there, we didn't say prayers, but we did recite:

'I pledge my allegiance to the flag of my country,
To all the good friendships from sea to sea;
I pledge my loyalty to the flag of my country,
The sign of a nation where all men are free.'

Neither particularly bothered me; I just thought that school was a place where one occasionally had to say things that were a bit meaningless. I remember interpreting school hymns in my own way; e.g. we sang one that began:

'Jesus bids us shine
With a pure clear light
Like a little candle
Burning in the night'

I understood this as an advert for 'Jesus Spencer's shine/ With a pure clear light', etc. I thought that this was about some sort of polish that could be obtained at Jesus Spencer's shop - presumably a bit like Marks and Spencers, but more holy!


Nor was I bothered by pledging allegiance to the flag of another country (in any case, it could have been technically called my country as I have dual citizenship). However, a friend in a similar position was a bit more concerned about this, and used to recite it as: 'I pledge my allegiance to the flag of your country...'

[MADem]

52. What a great series of memories! I hope you're passing these gems on to the next

generations!

As someone who was educated all over the globe as well, this comment in particular resonated with me:

I just thought that school was a place where one occasionally had to say things that were a bit meaningless.

Your parents raised a smart kid, I see!

[Arugula Latte]

89. "Get your sparks at Mark and Sparks!"

[Journeyman]

12. I pledged allegiance to the Constitution when I was inducted into the military in the early '70s...

I haven't repeated the pledge since, and I've no intention of ever repeating it.

The way I figure it, once you pledge yourself to something, if you truly mean it, you need never do it again. In fact, to do so -- to engage in a "doctrine of continual reaffirmation" -- makes a mockery of the original vow, as only a meaningless pledge needs constant updating. I affirmed my commitment to the Constitution as a young man. If I ever change my mind, I'll renounce my pledge. Until then, I consider it my word, freely given. Any attempt to make me renew it simply insults me and casts aspersions on my honor.

As for those who insist it should be recited on multiple occasions, who would prefer to see it rendered meaningless through reduction to nothing more than a rote recitation, I often wonder, if they can't trust me to keep a pledge quietly, what's my mumbling it going to mean?

Perhaps we should just reduce it to a “Reader’s Digest” version: “I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all.” Short and to the point, non-controversial, useful for all peoples on the planet.

[MADem]

53. You never reenlisted, then? Or got promoted?

They make you do it again at those junctures--if they were in a hurry, in a war environment, for example, that is sometimes accomplished with just a signature, but it's supposed to be given and spoken, technically, and then the enlistee/promotee signs a document with that printed on it.


http://www.history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html

[Journeyman]

55. It wasn't required when I received either of my two promotions . . .

nor was it required when I left the service. The first promotion came early in my enlistment, the second just a scant few weeks before I was discharged.

This is the first I've ever heard of the oath being required at any time other than induction.

[MADem]

57. Leaving--no, unless you're taking a reserve appt. But you did at least SIGN an oath to promote.

You absolutely had to, in order to get the pay increase.

It is traditionally given at every promotion AND reenlistment. Corners were sometimes cut during the draft era.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

85. I didn't sign anything when I got promoted in the Marine Crotch.

Nor, do I recall ever saying the Pledge of Allegiance during the 4 years I spent wasting my time.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. My son stopped saying the pledge in 6th Grade. Man, did he create a stink.

He was "allowed" to not say it, but he had to stand and remain quiet, hands behind his back, while all the other little robots recited it. To this day, he doesn't recite the pledge or sing the National Anthem.

[msongs]

15. most kids don't know the meaning of half of the words anyway - just being robots nt

[YvonneCa]

35. Which, for me, inspired...

...a teachable moment. My school policy required 'a daily patriotic observance' so many teachers, by tradition, said the Pledge...quick, over and done for the day.

I found, like you, that many elementary age students didn't understand what they were saying, so I taught a vocabulary lesson at the beginning of the year. They picked the words they didn't understand. Then they each rewrote the Pledge in their own words.

After that, for the rest of the year, saying the daily Pledge was optional. What was NOT optional was respect for a fellow student's decision.

[robinlynne]

18. I wouldn't recite it when I was a kid. I stood quietly. I got expelled from 6th grade.

my Mom went down to the school board and got me reinstated.

[Obamanaut]

21. Whether it is called patriotism, tribalism, teaching the young, or brainwashing, to that

group or individual it is the truth as they see it.

I have found that if one finds the pledge or singing or whatever offensive, simply do not participate. It's that easy.

[Cyrano]

38. So a seven, or eight, or nine year old knows what "truth" is? And not

participating is often not an option unless a kid wants to get harassed or beaten up by their peers.

[Obamanaut]

58. Jesus! It is likely that a seven, eight , or nine year old has not yet had time

to formulate his/her own beliefs. But the more mature folks who are doing the patriotism, brainwashing, tribalism, etc teachings also likely believe what they are teaching is the truth.

There are multitudes of religions. Each one has members who are teaching the youngsters in the groups what they view as the correct path to enlightenment, their version of the truth.

There are likewise multitudes of folks who have no religion at all, and that non-belief is their truth.

As the children in any group grow up, they form their own beliefs, sometimes based on what they were taught, other times not.

But you know this. I'm sure you do.

[defendandprotect]

74. If you have to stand at attention with your hand over your heart, you're participating ....

even if you don't say the words --

In order not to participate you'd have to leave the room --

And, of course, all youth are anxious to separate themselves as an "odd ball" -- !!

[kctim]

22. And for something just as important

my grass is turning brown.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. I did

Then went to a private Catholic high school as a non-catholic for Sophmore through Senior Year and no pledge - but morning prayer.

Funny thing is - my dad (passed away in August) was born in 1941. As a little little guy - he was taught to say the pledge with a er - 'funny hand salute' that resembled the way German's would have saluted Hitler. I think when he was in 2nd or 3rd grade it changed.

So along with having that under god put into it in the 1950's (author was kicked out of his Baptist church for his Christian Socialist beliefs - probably rolling over in his grave) - it's been fluid in how it's said, when it's said, and what 'hand salutes' go with it over the years.

Truthfully - I don't think it's necessary. I'd much rather have my kid sing This Land Is Your Land each day than say the pledge each day . . . at least they'd get a geography lesson in the mix. :lmao: Hell - sing Shenandoah!

Oooh - Shenandoah - I long to see-eeee youuuuuuuu . . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I don't like it but we have bigger battles to fight these days

[Cyrano]

36. "Bigger battles" often start with small skirmishes

[defendandprotect]

75. This small battle is based on a large concept -- Separation of Church & State --

which is your guarantee of your most precious right -- the right to freedom of

thought, free conscience and free will!

[Warren DeMontague]

31. 1) No one should be FORCED to pledge anything, and 2) The original pledge is fine as was.

"Under God" was tacked on later. It should be taken out.

[Armin-A]

44. but.....

America has been "under god" since we became free... in 1954...

personally i like the 1924 pledge

[jeff47]

83. Actually, the original pledge has it's own problems

The entire point of our experiment is for the government to serve the people, not the other way around. The government should be pledging allegiance to us.

[EC]

33. It never washed my brain

we had to do it, but I never really paid attention and I'd bet no one else did either. We stood and put our hands over our hearts and recited words, period, nothing meant anything in those words to me. I didn't know what allegiance meant (nor cared)I just thought about Superman I guess. It never meant anything to me...where I was born wasn't too important to me at a young age...what did I know?

[MADem]

34. I like the way they do the Pledge, now, at many schools.

You can participate, or not. If you don't participate, go stand in the back of the class. No sitting, lounging, smirking. I'd love it if they'd go back to the original words, but that will probably not happen.

I don't mind the Star Spangled Banner, even though it is hard to sing. Appropriate that our anthem had once been a drinking song from back in the day--it gives us that "Everyman" attitude. http://www.colonialmusic.org/Resource/Anacreon.htm

I don't care for ruining Seventh Inning Stretch with GOD BLESS AMERICA, though. Only one person could sing that song, her name was Kate Smith, and she's dead. Seventh Inning Stretch belongs to "Take Me Out To The Ball Game" -- not yet another patriotic bit of bullshit.

I enjoy national anthems, from all countries. Even Iran has a catchy one.

[Armin-A]

77. good idea

they should make them drink from separate drinking fountains too!

[MADem]

78. Well, that's just a silly comment. Makes not one lick of sense.

Sorry, your effort at has failed.

[Froward69]

37. porkeys rendition is a-ok with me.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Xkr2Dzf3U&context=C2c5...

[jdadd]

39. The Central Ohio public school I attended

Had both the Lords Prayer and the pledge. "Under God" was added while I was in the first grade. I don't think we did the prayer after 6th grade, but the pledge was still mandatory every morning....I changed some words in my recitation, just because I was a smart ass.....

[Spirochete]

41. I don't understand

why it's only a 24 hour pledge in the first place. Why does it need to be said every day? They should maybe have two pledges: the original pledge, that is said once, and a "Fuck the Flag" pledge, that undoes the first one. Neither one mandatory.

[ieoeja]

47. You mean you didn't make this statement every evening?

I reject allegiance
to the flag
to which I swore allegiance this morning,
And to the Republic
for which it stands
fifty states
no gods
without liberty and justice for many.


What kind of weird upbringing did you have?

[dtexdem]

45. I'm in favor of having the students recite the original:

I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[WinkyDink]

48. It's voluntary. I know. I had a homeroom.

[MADem]

51. +1. Any contretemps about it is as silly as "The War On Xmas." nt

[JI7]

49. only thing i didn't like about it was if i was late and they had already started the pledge

it felt awkward to come in while they were in the middle of it.

[hunter]

50. God doesn't like it, it's idolatry.

My mom said so.

The Pledge of Allegiance is one of those things that toughened me up as a child... I had a religious exemption and my mom would make sure that all my teachers knew it. I was plenty weird enough as a kid. My silence during the pledge simply added to my weird-kid-mystique and gave the bullies yet another reason to harass me.

Eventually Jehovah told his Witnesses that my mom wasn't welcome at their meetings 'cause she talked to God too much, especially about politics. And sex. So they posted some big guys at the door to keep her out.

After that I wasn't sure if the Witnesses' Jehovah and my mom's God were the same dude, or if it was just a bad connection. But the Quakers were okay with my mom so I soon decided it was the Witnesses who had disassociated themselves.

All these years later it's still not safe to invite my mom to most churches.

Anyways, I think the pledge is a waste of time and contrary to it's own stated purpose.

[Patiod]

84. Our Friends school would agree with you.

The Friends School affiliated with our Meeting doesn't do the pledge, and doesn't have a flag on site. Why do we need it? Are these kids going to forget they are in America or forget they're Americans? Do we worship the flag?

Right after 9/11 some wingnut from central PA wanted to require all classrooms to have a flag up front, and require all schoolchildren to recite the pledge. He got a lot of pushback from the Amish, Mennonite and Friends (Quaker) schools in the state, and I think they put in an exemption for religious schools in order to shut us up.

Oddly, most of the kids at Friends schools aren't Quakers, so we have to have a "Meet the Quakers" night every year to explain to the parents why we aren't doing the pledge, and why we're not all that gung-ho on war.

[TBF]

54. lol - we not only have that we also have the allegiance to Texas oath

By law in Texas:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."

When my daughter was in preschool I'd hear her singing "I pledge allegiance to the Texas" - always cracked me up. But, yes, it's worrisome too.

[Common Sense Party]

59. I like it and wish that it were more common and widespread.

I liked when I was growing up in the Midwest, back when it seemed like people LOVED their country.

[Gabi Hayes]

61. tell it to your best bud:

[Common Sense Party]

63. Typical.

[Gabi Hayes]

99. what, don't you love your country and its authoritarian leaders?

sure sounds like that's what moves you

lachrymose appeals to the "good old days" when real merkins loved their country, right or wrong?

right?

[malthaussen]

60. What bothers me about the Pledge is simple

A minor child is not capable in law of making a binding contract. Therefore there is no rational reason for the daily recitation of the Pledge. As to understanding, my third-grade teacher explained quite thoroughly what the Pledge meant, although in my case that was unnecessary since I already understood the words.

The fact that the Pledge is recited daily is also illogical: as someone pointed out above, what is the rationale behind a 24-hour "oath?" Either the oath is good for all time, or it is good for no time. As it happens, I am of the personal opinion that all oaths and promises are ipso facto invalid because the future is indeterminate, but that is a minority view and I expect few others share it.

In any event, my last year in high school I refrained from mouthing the meaningless words, and nothing bad happened to me. Of course, that was before the Patriot Act.

Patriotism is not something you say. Patriotism is not something you wear. Patriotism is something you do, a fact which appears to have escaped a good few of our countrymen, Pledge of Allegiance notwithstanding.

-- Mal

[niyad]

62. I pledge allegiance to Mother Earth, one planet indivisible

refused to say the pledge in school. always thought it was nonsense

[defendandprotect]

64. Brainwashing -- absolutely -- !!

[JoeyT]

67. I think they should force all kids to say it,

but only if we return to the Bellamy salute.



I'm far less concerned with patriotism than I am entertainment value.

[SteveG]

68. So long as it's the pre 1950 version...............(n/t)

nt

[Solly Mack]

71. I refused to say it, starting in the 3rd grade.

I don't think it serves any good purpose. The state would disagree with me (but it would, so...).

[Herlong]

72. I'm for it.

If we have to send them to war for no reason every generation or so, why not ply them with a little progaganda before we do it?

[Fool Count]

76. Just to put it in context, what other countries have anything similar?

I know that they do not do it in Canada and Australia. They do sing the Australian anthem at weekly school assemblies though. Any other examples?

[T S Justly]

81. I pledge allegiance to liberty and justice for all...

I think they want something else, though.

[Arugula Latte]

87. Hate it.

It imposes "god" on public school kids, which is outrageous, and it is an important indoctrination in making Americans the unthinking "rah rah red white and blue!" "patriots" who never question the things that need questioning.

We told our kids they had to stand for it, but they didn't have to recite it, as none of us believe in a god.

[LanternWaste]

88. At worst, it appears to be little more than a benign tradition

At worst, it appears to be little more than a benign tradition.

I rarely did, and currently do not, get worked up over the benign. Although I imagine there are hurt feelings and the sense of desperate oppression and 'brain-washing when we engage in or merely witness firework displays on July 04 of every year.

[treestar]

92. I don't mind it - the patriotic part is OK

It's not brainwashing to such an extent - not unless the school curriculum were really jingoistic.

Maybe schools need a thing like this to start the day.

However they should take out "under God" since that was added in later by people who really did want to do some brainwashing.

[DFab420]

95. I think it's great. Honestly it's the sign of a cynical mind that can't understand

that as children growing up in a country with so many different people and cultures to realize that everyone here belongs to the same group. For liberty and justice FOR ALL.

Its the "under god" part I could do without

[timtom]

98. It is most certainly brainwashing.

And the agenda has become so much more aggressive since I was a wee lad.