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Dan QUAYLE!1 is the power behind Cerberus/Freedom Group gun consolidation?

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 01:35 PM
Original message
Dan QUAYLE!1 is the power behind Cerberus/Freedom Group gun consolidation?
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 01:39 PM by UTUSN

Haraz N. Ghanbari/Associated Press
Stephen Feinberg, chief of Cerberus.

*************QUOTE*************

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/business/how-freedom-...

How Freedom Group Became the Big Shot


.... In recent years, many top-selling brands including the 195-year-old Remington Arms, as well as Bushmaster Firearms and DPMS, leading makers of military-style semiautomatics have quietly passed into the hands of a single private company. It is called the Freedom Group and it is the most powerful and mysterious force in the American commercial gun industry today. ....

Behind this giant is Cerberus Capital Management, the private investment company that first came to widespread attention when it acquired Chrysler in 2007. (Chrysler later had to be rescued by taxpayers). With far less fanfare, Cerberus, through the Freedom Group, has been buying big names in guns and ammo. ....

Mr. Feinberg, a Princeton graduate who began his Wall Street career at Drexel Burnham Lambert, the junk bond powerhouse of Michael R. Milken fame, got into private equity in 1992. That year, he and William L. Richter founded Cerberus, which takes its name from the three-headed dog in Greek mythology that guards the gates of Hades.

Today, Mr. Feinberg presides over a private empire that rivals some of the mightiest public companies in the land. Cerberus manages more than $20 billion in capital. Together, the companies it owns generate annual revenue of about $40 billion more than either Amazon or Coca-Cola last year. ....

Cerberus brings some connections to the table. The longtime chairman of its global investments group is Dan Quayle, the former vice president. The Freedom Group, meantime, has added two retired generals to its board. One is George A. Joulwan, who retired from the Army after serving as Supreme Allied Commander of Europe. The other is Michael W. Hagee, formerly commandant of the Marine Corps. ....


*************UNQUOTE*************
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. All your guns are us
yup
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. "You 99% can just STFU and kiss our steel-hard gun barrels." - Cerberus (R)
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Gawd! Guns in the hands of a potato (e) head relative. No that is disturbing.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Related thread with identical media citation
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. I have heard of the Cerberus group before in another context..
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 07:53 AM by annabanana
I think a trip to the archives might be fruitful..

Ah.. Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It turns out they are blood sucking vampires

They are also on this list
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

They are also mucking about in the foreclosure crises
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

JeezaLOO. . .

Go ahead.. search DU archives for this stinky slimy dangerous crowd. .
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. kicking for the research experts.. we need your input. . .n/t
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. kickers.. The NYT piece made Cerebus sound like a success story.
A real business hotshot, go getter, up & comer...
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's not just guns -- it's also Dyncorp and "tactical training"
I ran into some of this stuff last year while chasing after the military contractor end of things, since there was speculation at the time that Cerberus might have ambitious to become the next Blackwater. I'm glad to see it getting greater attention.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-12/dyncorp-to-...

Cerberus Agrees to Acquire DynCorp in $1 Billion Deal
April 12, 2010, 4:07 PM EDT

Cerberus Capital Management LP, the private-equity firm whose takeover of Chrysler Corp. ended in bankruptcy, agreed to buy defense contractor DynCorp International Inc. for about $1 billion. . . .

DynCorp, which helps train Iraqi police and supports the U.S.s operation of military bases, is at least the fifth government-services investment that Cerberus has made since 2000, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Cerberus owns government contractors including IAP Worldwide Services Inc., Tier 1 Group and Radia Holdings Inc. . . .

Cerberus filed to take public Freedom Group Inc., a Madison, North Carolina-based maker of firearms, in October. Since 2006, Freedom has bought gunmakers Remington Arms Co., Bushmaster Firearms International LLC, DPMS Firearms LLC and Marlin Firearms Co., according to a regulatory filing. . . .

Cerberus also owns Tier 1 Group, a Jacksonville, North Carolina-based company that provides weapons and military training, and Tokyo-based Radia Holdings, a temporary staffing company that serves the U.S. government.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Managemen...

Firearms - Acquired Bushmaster Firearms, Inc., from Windham, Maine native Dick Dyke for an undisclosed sum in April 2006, and purchased Remington Arms in April 2007. Under Cerberus direction, Bushmaster Firearms acquired Cobb Manufacturing, a well-respected manufacturer of large-caliber tactical rifles in August 2007. Cerberus also acquired DPMS Panther Arms December 14, 2007. Remington Arms acquired Marlin Firearms in January 2008. In October 2009, Remington Military products acquired silencer manufacturer Advanced Armament Corporation. These companies were combined into the Freedom Group.


http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2009/10/19/a-dossier-on-cerb... /

One positive aspect to Cerberus involvement in the gun industry is that the huge political clout Cerberus commands as the rescuer of Chrysler Corp. (which Cerberus also acquired) should undermine efforts to ban AR-platform rifles, wrote the Accurate Shooter.com in December 2007. Cerberus is big enough to make waves in Washington. Money talks in politics and Cerberus has lots of it. . . .

Understandably, Cerberus is trying to brand their firearms companies under a new name: Freedom Group, Inc. Im sure theyve probably conducted a poll that finds gun owners are not the types who are thrilled with a private group taking $4 billion in tax dollars to bailout one of the worst investments: Chrysler. This would be the same firm that decided to take out full page ads in USA Today, The Wall Street Journal and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution to the tune of $400K+ thanking taxpayers for giving up their hard earned dough to continue supporting a dying company.. Im saying it in the interest of full disclosure since I have a history of calling out PR campaigns for what they are, wrote Bitter on the blog Bitchin in the Kitchen in Feb. 2009. . . .

George Kollitides, a Cerberus managing director, is helping oversee Freedom Group. He has twice run unsuccessfully for an NRA board seat. His campaign platform says hes a true sporting sportsman who has lobbied for the Second Amendment politically, in the field and on the range. In endorsing his 2009 candidacy, Guns & Ammo magazine said Kollitides is a person who is engaged in the shooting sports industry on a daily basis and lives in our world of hunting and shooting.


http://www.defensereview.com/cerberus-freedom-group-goi... /

October 21, 2009

According to a regulatory filing, Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. is planning to take Freedom Group Inc. public in a $200 million ($200M) initial public offering. Cerberus owns 94.3% of Freedom Groups shares, according to the filing. In H1 2009, Freedom Group, which owns a number of firearms and related companies that include Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS Panther Arms, Marlin, and now Advanced Armament Corp. (AAC), experienced a reported sales increase of 35 percent, making the timing for an IPO move look pretty good.

Reuters reports that Freedom Group sold about 1.1 million long guns and 2 billion rounds of ammunition in the year ended June 30, 2009, according to its prospectus, filed on Wednesday with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Freedom Group reported net sales of $427.3M for the six months ended June 30, 2009, which is up 34.9 percent over the same period a year earlier. Net income for the same 6-month period was $32.8M.

So, why the IPO plan? Freedom Group wouldnt specify beyond saying that it was for working capital and general capital. But, capital for what? Probably to buy more firearms (and related) companies.

DefenseReview is not anti-Cerberus/Freedom Group, but were not exactly pro-Cerberus/Freedom Group, eitherat least not yet. Steve Feinberg is simply way too secretive and enigmatic for us to trust or like him and Cerberusyet. How can we? We dont know him, or really anything about him, other than that he enjoys buying companies.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Tier 1 Group
Tier 1 Group, which is owned by Cerberus, runs a tactical training center in Arkansas. Their official webiste (http://www.t1g.com /) doesn't tell you much beyond a listing of their facilities and training courses, but the best explanation of their history I found last year was at a gun-related discussion board. Basically, they're operating out of a facility that was formerly owned by the Olive Group (a well-connected British security firm) but have added modifications and improvements since they acquired it in 2009.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=sho...

The facility located in Crawfordsville Arkansas started off decades ago as OMNI Explosives. Then Tactical EXPLOSIVE Entry School (T.E.E.S.) took over the small parcel of land from OMNI. OMNI moved down the road and T.E.E.S. built their brand. A few years ago Olive Group North America bought T.E.E.S. & the site. They also bought the surrounding property so they could build a site for their new company Olive Security Training Center or O.S.T.C. . OSTC ran their operations with some good results until a number of things happened in the industry & overseas that saw a majority of the business dry up overnight. O.S.T.C. site improvements were put on hold and the facility was put on the market.

While O.S.T.C. was building their brand & site T1G was brought into the industry by its founder & retired Marine Steve Reichert. Reichert wanted to build his facility in NC, however after 3 years of working on multiple land development projects the O.S.T.C. site was for sale. By then T1G had a great reputation in the SOF community even without a facility. T1G acquitted the assets of O.S.T.C. in 2009 and immediately started site improvements & modifications to meet the demands of their SOF clientele. Also in 2009 T1G started a new brand strictly dedicated to civilian and law enforcement called High Caliber Training or HCT. T1G handles all DoD training and HCT Civ/LE.

The sentence I put in bold is of particular interest to me, because I suspect that this kind of training of police officers in what is essentially a military context (and Tier 1 isn't the only facility that offers it) may be partly responsible for the militarization of civilian law enforcement that we're seeing in the suppression of OWS.

The Arkansas facility, by the way, is notable for having a replica of an Afghan village on-site for training purposes. This was there in the Olive Group days but has apparent been upgraded since.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Cerberus's motivations in acquiring Dyncorp
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 11:44 AM by starroute
This is stuff I found at another discussion board, run by something calling itself the "Special Operations Community Network." (http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1293501 )

The thread began with an April 2010 news article about Cerberus buying Dyncorp and taking it private. One poster compared Cerberus to Goldman Sachs and wrote:
They're vampires. If Cerb does to PMC/PSC what they did to small arms platforms, you'll see them consolidate a fragmented industry, set the market price, and sell off in a few years.

OTOH, a private company can operate more freely in the gray area than a public company like Dyn that has to have disclosure/transparency to stockholders. We may have just witnessed the start of a massive private war machine tailored for high demand/low density. Just in time for a couple of huge re-competes.

And that same poster further added:
Cerberus will make money off Dyn by growing it or gutting it. Dyn's bonds were trading as junk (Moody's Ba3) and their margin was half of what it should have been. Perhaps some circumstances beyond their control, but still money on table if you believe they're in a growth market.

Since Cerb consolidated small arms platforms and is now the largest manufacturer of commercial firearms and ammunition (link above) - plus owner of OMNI/TEES/Olive/Tier 1 Group training site outside Memphis - I'm thinking maybe the guy is considering what opportunities Cerb would have as an 800 lb gorilla of private paramilitaries.

Other posters pointed to the fact that Dyncorp had been in danger of losing the contract to train the Afghan national police (which it had held since 2003) when control of the training program shifted from the State Department to the military, but had launched a protest of the Army's projected transfer of that contract to Blackwater/Xe and had recently been upheld by the GAO.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Just In Time for War
So that's what's become of Dyncorp! Thank you for the heads-up, starroute.

I should have known Mr. Impeachment Insurance would have all 10 of his greasy little fingers in that oily gunmetal gray pie. These guys don't believe in competition, unless they can sell arms to both sides. Their tagline is Merchants of Death.

Perhaps one day we'll have an honest news media to report what the nation needs to know about the revolving door between making war and making money off war for government "officials" and their connected cronies. Of course, as with all fiscal policy since Pruneface's time, these, the servants and clerks of the Top 1-percent, will see their masters get the lion's share of the proceeds.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Sounds like DynCorp is growing and looking for new opportunities
From their website:

http://www.dyn-intl.com/overview.aspx

We recently expanded our intelligence services beyond our Global Linguist Solutions translation support for the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) with DynCorp International Intelligence Training and Solutions. Our 300 intelligence professionals provide strategic, professional, and technical advisory and support services to government and military organizations through the Phoenix Training Center and the DynCorp International Center for Professional Development.

In addition, we have also recently strengthened our ability to support international development with the acquisition of Casals & Associates. The combined strengths and experience of DynCorp International and Casals & Associates provide initial rapid response capabilities in emergencies, world-class post-conflict and transition programs, and sustainable solutions for long-term development, with an emphasis on building local capacity. Our unique delivery model, combined with our extensive global infrastructure, gives us the agility and flexibility to rapidly integrate any or all of our solutions as needed any time, anywhere in the world.

Our services to both governments and private industry are characterized by a great deal of technical and administrative innovation, including DynInsight, our Web-based enterprise information system, which helps customers manage everything from supply chains, inventory, and work flow to internal communications and administrative support.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. They like to go where the money is: WAR. And they enjoy the pain, especially in the giving.
Their reputation makes one shudder for the children.



It's Dj Vu for DynCorp All Over Again

David Isenberg (author of "Shadow Force: Private Security Contractors in Iraq")
Huffington Post Posted: December 6, 2010 08:47 AM

For an example of how just one transgression can lead to endless bad publicity consider the movie titled The Whistleblower that was released earlier this year. To summarize the plot, in Bosnia in 1999, Kathryn Bolkovac, a U.S. policewoman served as a U.N. peacekeeper. Her post was with the International Police Task Force which was arranged by DynCorp Aerospace. She was assigned to run the IPTF office that investigates sex trafficking, domestic abuse and sexual assault. She ultimately alleges that peacekeepers, U.N. workers and international police are visiting brothels and facilitating sex trafficking by forging documents and aiding the illegal transport of woman into Bosnia. DynCorp responds by firing Bolkovac, who returns to the U.S. and files a wrongful termination case. She wins the suit but says she's still blacklisted.

Put bluntly, DynCorp was involved in a sex slavery scandal in Bosnia in 1999, with its employees accused of rape and the buying and selling of girls as young as 12. Dyncorp, hired to perform police duties for the UN and aircraft maintenance for the US Army, were implicated in prostituting the children, whereas the company's Bosnia site supervisor filmed himself raping two women. A number of employees were transferred out of the country, but with no legal consequences for them.

This was one of two cases involving DynCorp and sexual scandal in Bosnia. The other, involved air plane mechanic Ben Johnston who sued DynCorp, alleging he was sacked because he had uncovered evidence that Dyncorp employees were involved in 'sexual slavery.

The negative impact of just those two cases cannot be overstated. Indeed, search online for "dyncorp AND sex scandal" as I just did and you get nearly nine thousand hits. DynCorp spent many years trying to move past the bad publicity resulting from these cases. And indeed, one can look forward to more on the subject when Ms. Bolkovac's book on the incident is released this coming January.

One could also note that, in a much less noticed case, in October 2004 it was revealed that DynCorp contract workers operating at Tolemaida Air Base in Colombia distributed a video in which they could be observed sexually violating underage girls from the town of Melgar. This video was even sold on the main streets of Bogot. Nonetheless, the Lawyers' Collective of Colombia has not learned of any criminal investigation undertaken in relation to these acts involving minors. According to follow-up work carried out by the Lawyers' Collective it was discovered that one of the minors involved in the videos committed suicide some time after the publication of them.

CONTINUED...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-isenberg/its-dj-vu-...



I'm sure the average employee is a fine person. Strange how this global child sex trafficking story, despite 9,000 Google hits, never really got any traction in the American press. Those BFEE connected turds running the thing put the "E" in Evil, all right.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Though on looking further, the financial relationships get bewildering
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 05:17 PM by starroute
I found a recent article that refers to DynCorp being owned by something called Delta Tucker Holdings, Inc, so I looked a little further on that and found some DynCorp press releases that I can't say I understand. Does this mean that DynCorp was sold off again by Cerberus? Or since it refers to "entities created on behalf of affiliated funds and/or managed accounts of Cerberus Capital Management," does this mean that Cerberus is still in charge overall? Does anybody know enough about business jargon to interpret?

On edit: It seems that Delta Tucker is variously described as either an "affiliate" of Cerberus (http://www.hoovers.com/company/DynCorp_International_In... ) or a "corporation created on behalf of affiliated funds and/or managed accounts of Cerberus" (http://google.brand.edgar-online.com/displayfilinginfo.... ), whatever that means.


http://ir.dyn-intl.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=4811...

FALLS CHURCH, Va., Jun 21, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- DynCorp International LLC ("DI"), the wholly-owned operating subsidiary of DynCorp International Inc. ("DynCorp International"), (NYSE: DCP), announced today that it has received, as of 5:00 p.m. New York City time, on June 18, 2010, tenders and consents from holders of $374,112,000 principal amount, or approximately 99.4%, of the 9.5% Senior Subordinated Notes due 2013 (CUSIP No. 23326BAB0) (the "Notes") of DI and DIV Capital Corporation in connection with its previously announced cash tender offer and consent solicitation. The tender offer and consent solicitation is being conducted pursuant to that certain Agreement and Plan of Merger, dated as of April 11, 2010 (the "Merger Agreement"), by and among DynCorp International, Delta Tucker Holdings, Inc. ("Parent") and Delta Tucker Sub, Inc. ("Merger Sub"). Parent and Merger Sub are entities created on behalf of affiliated funds and/or managed accounts of Cerberus Capital Management L.P. Pursuant to the Merger Agreement, as of the effective time of the Merger (as defined in the Merger Agreement), DynCorp International will become a wholly-owned subsidiary of Parent.


http://www.dyn-intl.com/news2011/new033011-di-parent-re...

Falls Church, Va. March 30, 2011 Delta Tucker Holdings, Inc. (Holdings), the parent of DynCorp International Inc. (DI, and together with Holdings, the Company), a global government services provider supporting U.S. national security and foreign policy objectives, today reported fourth quarter and calendar year 2010 financial results, with adjusted annual revenue up 32.2% from calendar year 2009.

On July 7, 2010, DI completed a merger with an affiliate of Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. (the Merger), with DI as the surviving corporation. Upon completion of the Merger, DI became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Holdings.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Apparently this merger *was* the acquisition
And it also seems like it was a major deal -- enough to make business observers sit up and take notice. But since almost everything since the merger has referred to DynCorp as owned by Delta Tucker Holdings, I keep wondering if it was structured in this way to draw attention away from the Cerberus name.

http://www.srz.com/srz_represents_dyncorp_in_acquisitio... /

SRZ Represents DynCorp International in Acquisition by Cerberus Capital Management
July 7, 2010

SRZ represented DynCorp International Inc. (DynCorp International), a leading global government services provider in support of U.S. national security and foreign policy objectives, in connection with its sale, for approximately $1.5 billion, including the assumption of debt, to affiliated funds and/or managed accounts of Cerberus Capital Management LP ("Cerberus"), one of the world's leading private investment firms. Under the agreement, . . . Cerberus obtained fully committed financing for the transactiona combination of equity financing from Cerberus and debt financing from Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Citigroup Global Markets Inc., Barclays Bank PLC, and Deutsche Bank Securities Inc.


http://www.srz.com/Representation_of_DynCorp /

We represented DynCorp International Inc. (DI) in one of the largest leveraged buyouts of a publicly traded U.S. company since the 2008 global financial crisis. DI, a leading global government services provider in support of U.S. national security and foreign policy objectives, was sold for approximately $1.5 billion, including the assumption of debt, to affiliated funds and/or managed accounts of Cerberus Capital Management LP. We helped our client achieve a successful closing of the transaction in less than three months from the signing of the definitive merger agreement. The transaction was selected by The Deal as one of 2010s Private Equity Deals of the Year.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thank you, starroute! Outstanding info there...
Regarding "Delta Tucker Holdings"...

Former Second Lady Mrs. Quayle's maiden name is Tucker. One their children enjoys the happy appellation:



Tucker Quayle, Managing Partner

Mr. Quayle has enjoyed an International financial career working throughout Asia and the United States. Prior to joining the APG Security team, Mr. Quayle was an investment banker in Hong Kong specializing in mergers and acquisitions focused on the Greater China market.

Currently based in Phoenix, Arizona, Mr. Quayle is a founding member of APG Southwest. HE is a board member of the Arizona Science Center in Phoenix and is active in the community. Mr. Quayle and his brother Benjamin founded Tynwald Capital, a firm that seeks to invest in high growth companies, where they take active roles in the management of their investments.

Mr. Quayle holds a Bachelor of Arts from Lehigh University and a Masters of Business Administration from The Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia.

BREAK...

About Us

We are a leading Full Service Provider of security services in the Northeast Region. Our Executive Officers have been in the industry for a combined total of over 100 years.

On December 5th, APG was honored by NJBIZ at the 2007 New Jersey's Finest Awards Dinner and Ceremony, as the recipient of an award recognizing them as one of the fifty-fastest growing companies.

APG Security Services was founded by Colonel David B. Kelly, former superintendent of the New Jersey State Police, who instilled in it the qualities of integrity, training and professionalism that he developed in building the NJ State Police into a nationally recognized law enforcement agency. As a client driven contract security company, Colonel Kelly's primary focus and a principal discipline is the protection of businesses such as yours, and the safeguards of people, property and assets associated with the businesses we protect.



Remember when Gore Vidal asked Mr. Carlson: "What, exactly, is a 'Tucker'?" Good question. We should be so lucky. Crony disaster capitalism, anyone?
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JohnnyBoots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. They'll be the 1%'s private army if the
99% ever turn violent and revolt. The US military and PD's would be used as the main force for supression barring defections, the Dynacorps of the world would be used to protect the 1%'s homes, family, workplaces and other assets. It reads like a sci-fi movie script.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. kickerino ,. ., . .n/t
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. No shit! Cerberus?
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