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Viva_Daddy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:50 PM
Original message
I am no longer proud to be an American.
We Americans love to crow about how great America is. Certainly I was raised to be proud to be an American, but I no longer am. Why?

There are more than 50 million Americans who are either unemployed or underemployed. Many of these same Americans and more have no medical coverage except for emergency care and they are afraid to get that because they know they cant afford it and/or are too ashamed to ask for it. We are the only advanced nation in which basic health care is not a human right.

We complain that we dont have enough doctors, engineers, or scientists, so we hire people from other countries where they get their higher education paid for from the general fund, while our students must either come from rich families or they have to take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get a higher education. Meanwhile, we are graduating kids from high school who cannot read and understand a basic contract.
We have millions of citizens who are homeless, many of whom are veterans like me.

Millions of children (and many adults) do not have enough to eat.

We spend more on so-called defense than the rest of the world combined, while too many of our citizens do not have their basic needs met. We, along with our European friends (and now our Russian friends), are the major producers and distributors of weapons to the rest of the world. Maybe if we were a better friend and neighbor to other countries we wouldnt have to spend so much to defend ourselves against our enemies. I find it hard to believe they are merely envious of our greatness.

Our Congress has become dysfunctional. Too many of our representatives are more concerned with kowtowing to their rich benefactors while saying whatever lies they can get away with to be reelected, rather than working to benefit their constituents or find solutions to Americas woes.

Our Countrys infrastructure is rapidly declining. No-brainer jobs bills that would put people to work fixing this problem are not coming out of this dysfunctional Congress for political rather than economic reasons. Too many politicians would rather deny Evolution or the conclusions of climate scientists, reaffirm In God We Trust, name buildings and erect statues to Ronald Reagan than do their job.

People in this Country are being pepper-sprayed, beaten with batons, and arrested for doing nothing but exercising their First Amendment rights.

Unfortunately, there is a lot more I could add to this short rant, but I have to get ready for Thanksgiving. I dont want to even get started on the need for paper ballots and fair elections.

I would like to be proud to be an American again; but with these things going on, I fear I may never again be proud to be an American.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tom Ripley Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. I never have been
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I was proud when this country elected Obama
but since then ... not so much. :-(
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. That's sad. eom
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Tom Ripley Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Blame it on my studying of American history rather than American mythology
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Study the history of any country and things would be no different
than here.

It is what it is.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. +1 n/t
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Whatever, Ignored....As an astute DUer once said "All empires suck"
going back to Britain, Spain, the French, you name it...We're just

the "latest" in a long line, and I hope we are the last.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #45
60. +1000 +++ n/t
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. Absurd.
What other country has done anything even remotely like the following at the expense of its own populace?


"From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."

- William Blum


And now count on your fingers the countries invaded and smashed or financially decimated since 2003 by the US of Goldman Sachs.

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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. We are a young country. Again,read the history of other countries
and you will find many similarities.

Your quote covers only about 50 years----hardly any time in the history of the world.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Try as you might,
misrepresenting the actual history of a country won't persuade the millions of high-info, web-connected people around the globe who are now waking up and willing to face the facts head on, even spilling their own blood, to join you in putting more lipstick on a herd of pork-barreling swine.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. I could post a very lengthy response.
But instead I'm just going to post this and let you figure out the following 500 years.

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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
59. That's a good point. I don't claim to be an expert, but I bet one can find a very
dark side to the history of any country. Most countries were founded through wars and domination of some other group/country. One thing good, I think, in all of this mess is more Americans are starting to realize that we need to think more about where we are headed, and where we are at, with our current policies.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Look into Occupy Wall Street
When I see occupiers waving the flag, it looks pretty to me. First time I've been able to look at it without feeling disgust and horror since 2001.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. Yep, that's it. Got fascism? Call OWS. Join us in
taking action to make a kinder and saner world.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. You will be proud again. Just make sure you don't give up hope, and join OWS in your own way nt
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. OWS has made me hopeful, showing many are not happy with the status quo. n/t
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's a low quality country and it has been for a long time.
I caught on 30 years ago.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yep, that's about when I saw a significant change, but I thought it was
temporary. Hopefully, anymore, more and more Americans are waking up. I really find it hard to believe most sane Americans think this is great and the best of the best.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It's denial. No one wants to admit that things aren't good. Almost no one.
I"m vigilant. I observe. I see when things are falling apart. I've always been good at that. I remember as a kid, when I blew up a transmission, which happened frequently, I had the diagnosis for the broken part within the first several seconds. Most people are under water with kids, jobs, mortgage, sickness...

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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. That doesn't make any rational sense, though
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 07:59 PM by MedleyMisty
Their plan is to just deny it? But then they will just continue to be under water, and things will just get worse. And they hold some of the responsibility for it getting worse, if they won't admit what's going on and refuse to speak up about it and won't try to change things.

Not making a choice is a choice, and it's a giant fuck you to the rest of us and the people who will come after us. What are they going to tell their grandchildren when the kids come home from their day of working 14 hours at the local Wal-Mart as a janitor? That is if they live long enough to see their grandchildren and haven't already died from not having health insurance or in a natural disaster caused by climate change.

"Well honey, I guess I could have fought the fascists and helped to create a better future for you, but I just didn't want to."

I love Occupy, and it sometimes gives me hope that Americans will fight for themselves. But then I look at people camping out for Black Friday, and I read comments on news stories slamming the occupiers, and I read about people not wanting to admit it and not wanting to talk about it, and I think - those who will not fight deserve what they get.

I guess that could be called victim blaming, but the freaking planet is dying. If you won't stand up for life itself, then yeah. I'm gonna blame you.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. That's how we ended up here.
You may have missed the first reply to this thread. The comment was basically, love it or leave it. Some jackass from FR came over here.

Drunks do this. Hell I used to drink excessively. But when I started aging, I suddenly realized that maybe 4 beers a night isn't the best thing for me. 20 years of drinking came to a stop over night. But a real drunk often is in denial in order to not change.

It's hard to put a handle on. OWS also gives me hope for the first time in a long long time. Why would the guy who replied to this thread with a love it or leave it statement say that? If it could be a better place, then why defend the flaw?

I see it as some form of machismo whereby they get a kick out of being crude and unrefined. Never pay attention to detail. Don't care enough to be introspective. Don't strive for something better. Not even perfection, but just something better. Even if it's causing distress to others, these people don't care enough to think a little.

I also think it's partly due to an inability to diagnose the situation properly. I've got an aunt who is so kind and nice. And a total right wing dork. It's not like she's mean. She just has no clue.

We have to pull the entire weight of the country as well as the idiots who can't see.

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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Someone was once saying in another thread that it's sort of like the Stockholm syndrome. n/t
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Yep, definitely denial and overwhelmed hoping to survive. For me, it's like walking in
a really old building wondering if the floors going to give way. The footings aren't sound and you know there's a good chance the floors might give way. It doesn't feel good, not at all. I know some people that don't even want to talk/think about it ... OWS gives me some hope.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
51. But, Gregorian, your profile says you live in Mendocino, CA...That's a high real estate market, no?
Maybe they're not in denial..Maybe in that area, most people are NOT doing that badly,

not that I wish they were.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. Funny how in this particular location people care.
I live in a town that is what they would call fringe in that we're similar to Berkeley or SF in politics. Even though we have it made, we still seriously care about those who don't have what we have. That's the America I love. Sadly, that isn't the America that exists over the majority of it's population.

It's a nice place to live in the sense that people are not in denial here. I've lived in rural red America. I learned to watch my tongue. Here, I can say what I feel to the checkout person, and we can talk freely.

Even my attorney is pro-OWS. I was a bit shocked with that one. :)
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Since it's well known as a wealthy, well-educated, liberal area, I'd say that's predictable
Liberal views, along with civic awareness and activism, frequently coincide with wealth and education.

What is a "shock" to me, is your easy put down of the entire country

when you, I suspect, are one of the more privileged in it.

Were rural red America able to appropriate some of what you enjoy,

perhaps it's "quality" would be more likely to meet with your approval. :eyes:
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
49. Really?.....It's been going downhill since Reagan...but I'd hardly call it a "low quality" country
at least not until recently. :eyes:
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. It just depends upon your standards.
I drive a Porsche. :)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
72. Really?....An amazing thing to say for someone who has probably benefited from it more than most
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 04:01 PM by whathehell
Sorry, Porsche, despising your own country is really NOT

a prerequisite to being a Progressive. :eyes:
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Why do you feel the need to be proud of a piece of geography
you happen to have been born in? Are you a patriot in the traditional sense? Correct me if I'm wrong.

See, I can join you in the desire to have America be restored to a great country for freedom-loving people of all races to live in. But the need to be proudly identified with your country of origin is at the root of a tremendous amount of the horrors that have been perpetrated in the name of "proud Americans".



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. say that while you drive through milies and miles of ghetto in Detroit.
in fact, maybe you can tell Detroiters they are all drama queens, too.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Kind of a dickheaded response. n/t
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That's a personal insult wrapped in a gender slur
and hurled at someone who seems to be in distress.

Could already have been alerted on, but I would like to see it stand for what you represent.
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Fokker Trip Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. "a personal insult wrapped in a gender slur" Nice turn of phrase Kaleko. nt
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Welcome to the club
I reached that point over a decade ago.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. At 10 years old
I realized America was not living up to its potential as an inspiration to the world and have tried to make Americans see this and change. To not much avail.
I am 65. Many European Constitutions are more advanced than ours, we have destroyed Democracy in Central America, e.g. Guatemala 1956, Raygun destroyed public education and more, etc., Iraq was a WAR CRIME, etc.

I haven't been proud to be an American for a long time, 55 years.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. Not much too be proud of, for sure. If I ever again hear or read 'get a job'
from those among the 99% who some how feel superior to the OWS protesters for whatever reasons, I swear I will lose it!


:grr:










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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. Time to face the truth, we fucking suck as a country
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 08:55 PM by quinnox
Ever since this country elected George Bush junior, its been all downhill.

I see some folks got pretty upset by this and there are deleted messages, but damn, lets stop fooling ourselves and telling ourselves we are the greatest and all that nonsense when the stark reality is staring us in the face. Lets stop the insanity of believing we are so fucking special and the brainwashing.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. I never understood pride in geographical location
Why is what country one lives in something to be proud of especially if it was just an accident of birth?


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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. + a million...
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BrendaBrick Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. That is a very profound point!
To take pride in a geographical location simply because it just happens to be...(what?) an accident of birth?

I think that taps into a very important sense of 'belonging'. Not something easily overcome (by the way) - because we all want to 'belong' and thus take pride in our "specific" (geographical) place of origin.

Though I must say, with the wonderful, recent advent of real-time, real-world technology, we just might be in the beginning stages where we start to blur the lines of separation and we can (maybe?) begin to see ourselves and identify with as NOT from this geographical location or that geographical location...but that, at its heart, in its very real beating essence - we are ALL just human beings struggling to make our way in this world. ALL of us...combined.

I'm reminded of the famous James Bond statement in the movies when asked his name: Bond. James Bond.

Perhaps now we are on the precipice of expanding that by saying (with regard to our identity).....: Being. Human Being.

My serious concern right now is with the limiting of free exchange with other human beings across the globe via Net Neutrality and this is really a single global effort which MUST continue to remain open and free if we are both to save ourselves and this planet that all of us inhabit and work towards dismantling the powerful dictators that be...across the board.

As beings...human beings.

I remain optimistic.

I think its doable. Very doable.

And the Occupy movements across this great globe are testament that this is indeed starting (and it is my hope will continue) to take form and foster a global peaceful movement where the symbol of any particular countries flag will be replaced with a unified flag for ALL inhabitants of this third rock from the sun of ours:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9teen87/5266131816 /






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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. Is pride a good thing?
Pride commeth before a fall?
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Fokker Trip Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. Americans have been subjected to PR on a massive scale for a loooong time. .
For decades and decades now US citizens have been relentlessly bombarded with propaganda that promotes American Exceptionalism. Look up Edward Bernaise, he started the modern advertising and PR movement. He was S. Freud's nephew and perverted Freud's work for Corporate gains starting in the 1930's I believe.

Its now leading to huge cognitive dissonance within the whole population.

Even people on this board who espouse progressive ideas seem to have trouble letting the idea of American Exceptionalism go (fro sure not everybody)

Its well understood that telling a child over and over again that they are better than everyone else as they grow up really messes up the child psychologically.

But in the case of the US it has happened on a national scale. It goes way beyond a feeling of pride in Ones country and it is what has allowed the US to use 25% of the world's resources with only 5% of the world's population.

The shift towards true understanding, which will be(and is being) forced on the population through global events will be a dangerous time. Its hard to wake up from the dream of exceptionalism into the reality of 6+ billion equal souls. The end result will be a better country but the transition is dangerous. Tantrums with nukes.

I sometimes wonder in the Boomer generation (members of which seem to suffer from the worst cases of me-firstism) were the most affected by this as they were really an innocent population of young folk being subjected to TV for the first time. Ads and TV shows have promoted these ideas relentlessly from the start and they had no knowledge of what was happening, no defenses. At least now a good many people understand what propaganda is and does and have some cynicism and knowledge to defend themselves. Just a thought.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Well, goshdarngoodgolly, that is one string of observations worth reading.
(Ahem, and this comment is not payback for your reply to me upthread, though I liked that too) :)
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Excellent analogy
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 06:35 AM by JNelson6563
You're exactly right. America is like a child who has been told a few times too often how very, very special they are. I actually know a few kids like that and you are right on the money. (In one case, a mom of one of these oh so special kids told me her child was "perfect". Much like a winger in denial about their perfect America)

Julie
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. "The Century of Self" perhaps describes some of which you speak
Edited on Thu Nov-24-11 06:42 AM by Agony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM

3 hours long

edit add desc.
To many in both business and government, the triumph of the self is the ultimate expression of democracy, where power is truly moved into the hands of the people. Certainly the people may feel they are in charge, but are they really? The Century of the Self by Adam Curtis tells the untold and controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society. How is the all-consuming self created, by whom, and in whose interest?
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cyrakitty Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #27
54. Wow
Edited on Fri Nov-25-11 01:23 AM by cyrakitty
Beautifully stated Fokker Trip and I think you hit the nail on the head!
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
61. Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to me ... the first generation subjected
to the power of propaganda via electronic media.

I think the Tee Vee had a powerful influence on an innocent population of young people starting in the 50's. ... and now people are getting a better understanding of the powerful propaganda used in this country to control the population and to shape their minds to the desires of TPTB.

I also think Internet censorship is going to become a real reality if some of the current bills pass in congress. The freedom of the exchange of ideas is a powerful threat to TPTB. TPTB don't want the masses communicating among themselves too much as is undermines the state propaganda machine.



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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
76. As a Boomer who had friends and family both fighting in, and protesting the Vietnam War,
I would have to say that a characterization of us as a generation that "had no knowledge of what was happening, no defenses",

would be incorrect.

The Boomers who came of age in the late sixties challenged, on a level never before seen in this country, American foreign policy

in Vietnam and the notion, generally, that America was always "right" and beyond criticism.

This generation brought down the Vietnam War, and questioned, not only America's foreign policy, but its materialistic

values via the counterculture.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. There must be some attraction, otherwise folks would not be migrating
to join us - some of them legally, others not-so-much.
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Fokker Trip Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. There are some great opportunities in the US for sure. Though fewer all the time.
My post wasn't meant to be anti-American. The US is still a great place for some people to migrate to. But it can't possibly live up to the hype.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country but the kind of over-the-top Nationalism and cheerleading, the flags everywhere and the reverence for the armed forces, these things are creepy and unnecessary.

Your post seems a bit defensive, and I feel that that might be some verification of my point. A country has to be able to take criticism as well as praise and it can be hard for those raised to feel like they live in an exceptional country to take.

I think that most people on the planet want very much to see the US rise again and be a beacon for freedom and not the enabler of torture with an omnipresent military world-wide (more than 700 bases).
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. because it's one of the easiest ones to get into
legally or illegally. Other decent countries have far more strict standards as to who can live and work there. Without a ton of money most people couldn't get into any other decent country and it's far more difficult than ours is in getting across a border.


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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. I don't know about that....
I recently visited with friends in Croatia and asked them to

come out and visit us sometime in the US...They told us of how

hard it is JUST TO get a visa to VISIT here now...They have to go through all

sorts of shit just to VISIT and I think this is the way it

is for much of central and eastern europe...My spouse's polish

co-worker told him that "If all the people in Poland who wanted to come

here, did, Poland would be empty".
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. permission to visit carries a red flag from Eastern European countries
The US is inundated with illegals from Eastern European countries already particularly from war torn areas like Croatia. One of the easiest ways to get into the US and stay illegally is a permit to visit, so of course a permit to visit is going to be more difficult. The US would far rather accept someone from Croatia whose intension was to live and work here than someone who claims their intension is only to visit. At least the US offers acceptance even if there is a lot of red tape whereas other decent countries offer so much red tape and restrictions that it's just like slamming the door in their faces all together.

As an AMERICAN I cannot get into any other decent country because I can't buy property, have no special skill to offer and a job already lined up nor have mega-thousands in savings to make me financially acceptable. The only country I've found that I COULD be accepted into is the one I would prefer to get the fuck out of.


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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-23-11 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. Americans are great. I've been mightily impressed since logging on here from Canada
Edited on Wed Nov-23-11 10:32 PM by applegrove
6 years ago.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Well, thank you.
It can be hard getting "a kind word", if you will. :hi:
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. You have the best minds in the world. We need you guys.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Wow....Thank you so much!
:yourock:
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
56. Oh our friendly neighbors to the North...
...always so friendly. I've yet to meet a truly angry Canadian :thumbsup:
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
35. Not particularly proud to be American today but don't have much choice...the alternatives are worse
So I'll just be who I am and not worry about it too much
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Fokker Trip Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. I think that this is a common feeling in a lot of countries now.
The Global Neo-Liberal/Neo-Con agenda is affecting every country. Canada is now being yanked hard right by a radical right wing religious extremist (Harper) who had a lot of help from Luntz and other Repukes to get into power. But there really is no where else that's a better alternative right now. The UK is financially in very deep water as is Ireland and really all of Europe. Australia is going to be a giant desert soon enough(it already is I suppose, but its getting worse and will keep getting worse as the climate warms).

I just hope the US can stabilize a bit before we get sucked down with it. Its like the elephant rolling over in bed and crushing the mouse.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
40. I have been ashamed of my fellow "Americans" for years.
Is any other Western nation saddled with such a load of religious zealots and far-right-wing bigots and cranks and creeps as we are? Forget al Qaeda. The stupidest, least educated Americans are bringing this nation down single-handedly!
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-24-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. But your fellow "Americans" are also the majority who elected Obama
and, regardless of how that's turned out, those people don't fit

that RW profile.

Americans are at least equally "us", and I

think it's good to keep that in perspective. :hippie: .

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cyrakitty Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
53. Thank you
I have not been proud for a while now. I try to hide the fact that I am American when possible. I even had a friend request that I delete him from my Facebook BECAUSE I was American and he didn't want any Americans as friends because of our foreign policies and how we treat other people. We are the bullies of the Earth. We want everyone to be like us and we have no problem beating them senseless until they conform. And while we are spending all our money to kick the little guys the home front is shattering. It's a disgrace.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. I used to travel internationally on business quite a few years back when one was
proud to be an American. Even then, some were PO'ed at America. I no longer travel internationally on business and I'm glad I don't, because I am not proud of what America is doing anymore, and I also know many would express their anger toward America to me. You summed it up well, "We are the bullies of the Earth." We are also spreading American Imperialism and I'm convinced there is a strong notion of manifest density among TPTB.

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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
69. Umm....If your "friend" wants you to delete him from your Facebook
because you are American, I'd say he's more of a bigot than a "friend".

Finding this country singularly bad in it's foreign policies is generally a result of ignorance

regarding the various foreign policies of "empires" which passed before us...Both you and he should learn

a little world history...You might check out something called "The British Empire" or "the Spanish Empire".

You're bigoted little friend and you will find that the US is hardly the first nation in history to

abuse their military might on occasion.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
63. Lots of mean, greedy assholes for sure.
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
64. You must have been "proud" to be an American when Bush was President.
Economy was better. Unemployment was low. People werent getting pepper-sprayed. Congress wasnt as dysfuntional.

I guess you long for the good ole days of the Bush/Cheney regime.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
70. Big deal.
Nobody says you have to be.

Being proud of yourself is the most important thing.
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NICO9000 Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
75. Step One: Admit you have a problem
In our case, we have a multitude of problems, mostly self-inflicted. When jackasses want to start with the "what do they want?" crap about OWS, the correct answer is:

"Whaddya got?"

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
77. I never was.
My identity doesn't belong to any government or any system.

I love the land I was born on.

I value some of the things people have done to organize human living on that land. I don't value much of what people have done.

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