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Now I want to tell you about the poor bastard in the hospital bed beside me

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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:20 AM
Original message
Now I want to tell you about the poor bastard in the hospital bed beside me
Our health care system, while as good as can be found if you have access, can be the most frightening thing there is for those who aren't blessed with good fortune.

You can go read about my recent hospital experience if you like, but this post isn't about me. Its about the poor bastard that was in the bed beside me.

They wheeled this guy into the room tuesday morning, the curtain between us held back nothing. I was 1 day head of him in the system, I was the old pro. Here's what the guy's deal was. He woke up monday and although he had to he could not pee. All day he couldn't pee. In the evening he finally did - he peed blood, blood, and more blood. He called 911 and was taken to the local (medium sized city) hospital. They told him they couldn't do what he needed and wished him luck as they sped him on up the chain.

The guy had no job. He had got laid off two years ago from his job running a fork-lift at a medium sized industrial company. He had no money, he had no insurance. He was also divorced and living alone. He had a daughter but she was not likely to show up in aid, she had serious problems of her own. Tests were done and results came back. He needed to have one of his kidney's, or what cancer had left of it, out and it had to come out right now.

And so there the poor bastard was. He had nothing, he had no where to go, nothing at all to fall back on, and now out of nowhere he had a medical emergency that would certainly take his life. The only thing between him and a paper's funeral was the charity of others.

And this was a nice guy. He was a hard-working guy too. He did what he was supposed to do, he played by all the rules, and there he was on the bed pissing blood and dieing. And how in hell could this be? Why had we, as a society, just abandoned this fellow?

Well, we didn't. They to a team of administrators in there and quickly got him into every program they could find that might stand a chance of helping him. They got enough on paper that he could be operated on and so yesterday after a full day's of surgery on thursday, he was still alive. But I've got to ask, how on earth could we have a system capable of doing so much good but that this fellow, who wasn't out there looking for a handout and wasn't working any system for anything that it was worth found himself so far outside of the world of care? This guy was just hours away from being tossed on the trash pile.

Fer christ's sakes, if there is anything on this earth we have to take care of, other than our murderous wars, this has to be it. There is no excuse for what passes as a health care system in this country so long as it is not completely inclusive and paid for completely from the public trust. Nothing else will do.

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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Happy to hear you are doing well! K & R nt
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IamK Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
97. If he was in another country (England/Canada) he would probably be dead...
sounds like the system worked...
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #97
112. . . .
:wtf: Enjoy your stay.
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kedrys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #97
114. If he'd been in Canada, they would have moved him to the top of the list
and operated on him right then and there. They don't mess around with life-threatening conditions.

Oh, and it wouldn't have cost him a dime, unless he wanted a private room - a whopping $30 a night.
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hayrow Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #97
115. Please provide the name of one representative democracy...
that has gone from socialized medicine back to our system. If not, go back under that bridge until the billygoats get there.
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #97
116. back away from the fox news crack bar dead
perhaps another forum would be more to your liking? initials FR ring a bell?

:eyes:
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #97
119. That's right, because their life expectancies are much longer than ours . . . hey, wait a minute. nt
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ClusterFreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #97
121. Your post has redefined the term 'epic fail'.
I know, from personal experience, as a Canadian, that you are 100 percent wrong and talking completely, utterly and absolutely out of your ass. In order to agitate, in order to infiltrate, in order to get attention more than anything else, you make a provocative, perversely and purposefully ill-informed statement. Two words for you my friend: Free Republic. Comments like yours would be welcomed there with open arms. Here? Not so much.

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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #97
126. lol. you've never lived in those countries...no idea wtf you're talking about
after the surgery he would get meds and follow ups. something he'll have a problem with once he's out of hospital
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. It sounds like the system actually worked for him.
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 10:33 AM by dkf
He has no funds he will be paid for by the public. For his job, he received unemployment for up to 2 years.

We the people have been supporting this fellow and keeping him alive.

But he is not a lucky guy, no bones about that.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The bureaucracy is absurd...
and that guy finally getting the help he needed does not happen all the time.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. i think you're missing his point
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 10:33 AM by pitohui
for this particular guy, although they delayed and delayed while they made phone calls and pushed papers, he held on and eventually they did have to operate

however, how many other guys, same situation but not in a hospital bed next to the thomwv, while the hospital delayed and pushed papers and made phone calls...how many of those other guys just died?

the delaying tactic, this pretense that they couldn't have just gone ahead and done the surgery and pushed papers/made phone calls later must quietly kill thousands of patients all over america, every year, saving millions in costs to hospitals

for a hospital to operate "for profit" is murder, pure and simple...it's the perfect crime, they can wring th eir hands and pretend they can do nothing without some pieces of paper that promise money, which is pure horseshit, they could have immediately responded to the emergency and chased the paper AFTER
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I can't speak to that.
All I see is an account where the work did get approved. You are saying this is an anomaly?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. i'm saying their delay of his surgery is absolutely unethical
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 10:54 AM by pitohui
a man was dying of kidney failure and required IMMEDIATE surgery

a large number of men in the same circumstance would have died in the interval while they pushed paper and made phone calls

and if they are medical professionals THEY KNEW THIS

it saves money for the hospital to delay and "wait for approval," because people die in emergency situations where they don't receive IMMEDIATE service

this happens every day, hell i nearly died in the 1970s because of a neglected emergency, i was basically pushed out of the ER by bullshit and left w/out treatment not realizing the severity of my illness...and the situation has only gotten WORSE since the 1970s

there are all kinds of little ways to try to delay when it's a poor/uninsured person in the ER, the delays won't kill EVERYONE but sure they will kill enough to reduce the costs to the hospital since they never have to provide any expensive treatments to those who die while waiting
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Whoa that is a different story. Not good.
Actually having to check up on anything would be bad from what you are saying.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
101. Plus one!
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion!
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. Why am I not surprised that you fail to understand the point
and that you don't see a problem with this? And yes, it is an anomaly. People in these situations get screwed every single freaking day, all over the place. At least 18,000 people die each year from lack of insurance and/or money, and that's conservative, it's likely more. God knows how many hundreds of thousands of others suffer injury and pain even if they don't die.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #47
98. The number in 2004 in a study in the NEJM put the conservative number at
278 per day or over 100,000 per year and the authors admit that those numbers only include the cases that were admitted/documented and also didn't include those number of people who would have refused to go to the hospital in the first place due to worry over the cost and bills.

Here's a few facts about the USA system:

It is still the number one reason for foreclosure and has been the number one stated reason for foreclosures for decades. The NEJM published a study comparing access to emergency and specialists in north america and a few other key industrialized countries of similar size and diversity which have private health care delivery models. In terms of ER wait times and the amount of time it takes to see a specialist for life threatening conditions the USA scored below everyone I. The study. What purposed the authors was that Canada outscored us significantly on both of these markers despite paying less per capita, having higher overall operating costs, and fewer per capita ratios of specialists to patients. That's right, in Canada it takes less time to see a specialist or an ER doc and it costs half what it does us and everyone is in line.

I doesn't surprise me the a certain cat doesn't get this despite posting on health care posts regularly and despite others explain over and over while providing link after link showing how expensive, inefficient, and cruel the USA 1%er system is. It's either deliberately obtuse, diabolically devilishly advocative, or decidely and perhaps remuneratively shillic. Take your pick. The other theory I have is traumatic brain injury leading to a loss of short term memory encoding..
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #98
102. Great post!
"It's either deliberately obtuse, diabolically devilishly advocative, or decidely and perhaps remuneratively shillic."

I vote 'diabolically devilishly advocative'. No one could be that obtuse even if they tried.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
129. Given the length of time on the board....
DU changes anyone who shows up and pays attention. There are too many facts and erudite cogent arguments for any other outcome. This leaves us with few other conclusions.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
81. YES! This is a fucking anomaly!
And what about the ones that get pushed aside and die because the insurance that they have been paying for doesn't work for them?

Sorry, I usually don't get this worked up, but my dad was a country doctor back in the days when a country doctor had to make house calls. He actually cared about providing the best care possible. He sat up all night with people out on their farms.
And he was loved by those people.

And this damn healthcare situation just eats at me.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
99. Plus one! nt
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. I beg to differ. If he had had guaranteed health care like every other industrialized
country in the world, his cancer might very likely have been spotted at an annual physical (via mild symptoms or blood tests).

Instead, he has no care, no annual checkups, and he presents at the last stages of kidney cancer.

That's not a success story, and this is no system. It's what you have when you don't have a system.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. agreed, the system did EVERYTHING possible to kill this guy cheaply
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 10:49 AM by pitohui
most people in his shoes would have died before the bureaucrats finished chasing all the paper

absurd to call this an example of the system "working," it's an example of the system failing -- the system is set up to quietly let the guy die without services, as much as they can get away with by putting forward all kinds of delays, without taking the risk of being charged with actual involuntary manslaughter

we see it here in louisiana w. the endless delays in replacing charity hospital, ridiculous to go over 6 years now w/out replacing the hospital, how many people have died without care over 6 years? it's a bold way to get rid of lots of older/poor people cheaply and invisibly without anyone being quite to blame
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Mayo clinic says: Kidney cancer rarely causes signs or symptoms in its early stages.
In the later stages, kidney cancer signs and symptoms may include:

Blood in your urine, which may appear pink, red or cola colored
Back pain just below the ribs that doesn't go away
Weight loss
Fatigue
Intermittent fever

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/kidney-cancer/DS00360/...
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. they knew when he couldn't pee for 12 hrs and then pissed blood he needed emergency surgery
i'm not going to debate woulda/coulda about early stage kidney disease, as i know nothing about it, but i can tell you that for late stage symptoms such as this guy presented w. at the hospital they KNEW they needed to act immediately

fill out forms and make the damn calls AFTER the emergency is dealt with or don't expect me to think you're very sincere about wanting to treat all emergencies

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Would he have been presenting symptoms for a long time before he got to this?
The blood in the urine sounds like something to be alarmed about.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
59. Yes. He would have had symptoms for some time before it reached that crisis point.
Our country has essentially no preventive care for the uninsured. That means that none of their health problems get detected and treated when they are usually treatable. Instead, we have a system where people in crisis - sometimes at death's door - show up in the emergency room and then our system says we're supposed to run around and try to figure out how to deal with the crisis. Sometimes it gets dealt with in time and sometimes not. Either way, once the crisis is over if the uninsured patient is still alive he/she gets pushed out the door with little to no follow-up care and they're on their own again.

The treating people only when they're in crisis part is what makes our health care system the most expensive in the world (by far), even though it's only middling in terms of effectiveness for everybody. It's really lousy in terms of effectiveness for the uninsured.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
75. That presentation could also be hydronephrosis, enlarged prostate, plus others
Kidney stone with secondary hydronephrosis (well, most things I listed hydronephrosis would be secondary to the cause) including 'staghorn' formation; prostate cancer - some of these are urgent; some are emergent; most would have had symptoms leading up to this event.

He should have had access to care or at least information on how to access care prior to this event.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. Most kidney cancer/tumors are found incidentally.
Mine was. Mine ended up being about a pound of flesh, had taken over the entire kidney and was doing its darndest to get into my liver, and all I had was the intermittent fever, slight pain, and a feeling of not wanting to eat and just not feeling great. That's all. We thought it was an infection, and the CT caught the tumor.

It's really unusual to catch it early on. They did their best and got him help, but he'll still owe a fortune when it's all said and done.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
100. And the normal blood tests in an annual check up will catch it.
The non USA system failed this man big time. In a non 3rd world civilized country this would have been screened out early and would not have required emergency touch and go all day surgery witha low chance of success. And it is needlessly expensive.

But I agree that we can't say that the system failed. One needs to have a system in place before it can be said to fail.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
103. "deliberately obtuse"
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Thank you.
Good god that you even had to write that.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
27. Having health insurance may not have helped anyway then because there are still out of pocket costs.
If you are unemployed $200 may be just as bad as $2,000 or $20,000.

But there is definitely a problem when doctors won't take cash without health insurance. Why we don't guilt doctors out of this behavior is beyond me.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. "Guilt doctors?" - lol
Capitalism doesn't work that way. It only rewards competition and greed.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
60. The doctors aren't the decision makers.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
88. I know many doctors, and have heard stories like the OP several times
Most of them involve the same type of thing - out of the blue, some horrible circumstance arises. The hospital has no warning, the patient has no warning, and the doctor has no warning. Usually in those cases there is no insurance or means to pay for what is needed - I'd agree that having insurance leads to better care and less "surprises".

Anyway, usually the story goes the same - the hospital staff does their best and one way or another what needs done is done...the rotten part is that it leaves mountains of debt and no real system to take care of it. The hospitals write off the majority, though if there are assets to pursue those do get pursued...in most cases its just written off though, and the overall losses are folded into general operating costs, which are financed by every other paying patient and insurance company.

Its a whole rotten mess. Its not the patient's fault for getting sick and not having enough money, its not the doctor's fault, as most of them really live to help people, and its not the hospital staff's fault, as most of them are really there to serve as well. Most complaints that they get have a root cause of being understaffed and overwhelmed with work.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #27
105. 'diabolically devilishly advocative'
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. We don't know what stage he presented at from the OP.
My father had excellent care but his kidney cancer was only discovered accidentally. It could have easily been not seen for years. They can be hard to spot.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. You make the assumption that the guy would have voluntarily gone to his physicals.
The issue that I have with your proposition is that it is ALWAYS the evil system, never the individual. If the government MANDATES physicals, where a person pays a financial penalty if they don't get the physical, people like you and the TeaNuts will go fucking crazy. BUT, in order to make a public financed healthcare system works best, people in the system MUST take actions that they would prefer not to. Like limiting the use of tobacco products, taking driving training on crash avoidance, practicing safe sex and reducing the intake of alcohol, etc.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. I look at the outcomes of countries like Japan and Germany with practically free
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 05:26 PM by mistertrickster
yearly physicals and then I compare them to our outcomes.

No comparison . . .

Life expectancy rank by country:

Japan 5

Singapore 7

Australia 9

Canada 12

France 13

Germany 27

United States 57
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
61. Nonsense. I'm sorry to be harsh, but it really is nonsense. Nobody is suggesting mandating physicals
In countries where preventive health care is available to everybody, many people take advantage of them and the result is better health at a population level. Sure, there will be individuals who refuse treatment and care, but I don't know of any system that penalizes people for choosing not to go an annual physical.

On the other hand, in the U.S. we are seeing more and more employers and private insurance companies penalize people for being overweight, smoking, etc.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
57. Completely correct.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
78. Mine wasn't caught in annual physicals. Most aren't.
Wasn't caught with blood tests, not with anything other than a CT that was looking for something else.

While this might be true of another cancer, kidney cancer has its own set of rules and isn't like anything else.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
85. That's what a system like Mass Health would have done.
Regular doctor visits, blood tests, that kind of thing.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Good god.
No, the system did not "WORK" for this person.

Sheesh.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
28. Exactly. He got help.
The issue is not that he got help at the last minute, but that he got there to begin with. What the OP was implying, as I read it, is that our societal objectives are mis-directed. I agree with that premise up to a point. We can and should be doing more to insure topflight healthcare for all americans. The basic issue is how to we craft that system and what individual responsibility requirements do we place on everyone that access that system. Lack of money should not prevent anyone from getting healthcare.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Maybe if we had a lot more doctors who need to fill up appointments we wouldn't have this mess.
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 11:21 AM by dkf
I've been reading up on the ways we restrict the number of doctors first through the lack of medical schools and then the lack of residencies.

But when doctors days are filled from the first minute then yes they can get picky and insist people with cash aren't good enough.
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bluestate10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. On this point, I agree.
The government and rich people that care about society can be big in the area of increasing the number of General Practitioners. That can be done in several ways.

First, people must be recruited into training. The nation has millions of bright people that are unemployed. Many of those people would be willing to go to medical school. The government should pay for their education, with the requirement that they have to in public access hospitals and clinics serving the medical needs of needy patients. The pay of those doctors should be such that they can live comfortably and raise families if they chose to do so.

Second, equipment in the public access hospitals and clinics should be the best and most up-to-date available and should be purchased in a way that government don't get ripped off. Annual audits of purchases should be performed to insure they adhere to the letter of fair and cost conscious purchasing.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Yes. It is funny that those who insist on a market based health care system don't ensure
Adequate numbers of doctors. Instead they think market based health insurance is the solution? That is bassackwards as they say.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. Not to mention the crushingly high medical school loan debt
that causes a lot of doctors who would otherwise consider family or internal medicine to go into lucrative specialties instead and to not take the uninsured. There simply aren't enough primary and family doctors, and that's a large reason why.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. this happens because the rich and politicians don't face this.
if they did it wouldn't exist. Get well, Thom. We miss ya.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. DKF's is exactly the kind of comment 'conservatives' make
'The system worked'?

OH NO IT DIDN'T and it doesn't, smirky.

I bet you don't know any medical professionals who are angered and beat down because of patients who can't afford to visit a clinic to evaluate and treat
symptoms before they turn into crises.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
95. Why would doctors be upset when they are the ones who could help?
Why do only lawyers have a tradition of doing pro-bono work?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. What are the chances
that this fellow will be debt free for a single day, the rest of his life?

And thats not even getting into whether preventative care could have done anything.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. the chances aren't very large that he will live much longer
he will likely need dialysis 3x a week and if they want to delay that whilst chasing paper i'm sure they can kill him off and save some bucks there

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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Well, I presume extending credit
to pay for dialysis to a person with a huge hospital debt and a low life expectancy is not high on the too do list.

That said, one kidney will keep ya going, if the other is still ok. Ive got a cousin with only one. Granted, ya want to be a little careful about playing contact sports and drinking, but I am really hoping this fellow human in particular is past the worst, with a clean removal and other organs still in good operating order, with no post-op issues.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
69. Some people can't help being pricks
Even in DU.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. Amazing. He should NEVER, EVER had any doubt, adding
to the stress he was already under, that he might not be able to get the care he needed. He lucked out, but over 44,000 Americans are not even as lucky as he was, they DIE every year. The system DOES NOT WORK when since 9/11, over half a million Americans have died because we live in a cruel, for-profit, country where nothing matters more than MONEY.

Nowhere else in the civilized world does this happen. Although the Global Cartel of out of control Capitalists are working hard to change that right now, with their brutal, cruel and criminal Austerity Programs designed to do two things, turn Europes HC system into a Privatized, murderous system such as this one, AND make the people pay for the Gambling debts of the Banks.

This man's situation is disgraceful. And it's only because we still have laws, always under threat from the privatizers, that make it illegal to refuse to treat someone once they get to the ER if they are in danger of dying.
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
117. He's only lucky if he dies
If he survives, the hospital, the surgeons, the labs and the anesthesiologists will go after him for every penny they can get.

And not for the prices they would charge an insured person (the insurance companies negotiate a deal to pay less), but instead, for 2-3x that amount.

I'm guessing from your comment that you've never been hospitalized without insurance.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. We should never have to worry about health care...
in this country, we are not the richest but we are the greediest
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Here's the list of things I think government should provide for every citizen:
health care
child care
education
3 hots & a cot

Jared Bernstein said, "In a just society, there is no limit to how high one can climb, but there is a limit to how far one can fall."

That's the kind of society I want to live in.


http://jaredbernsteinblog.com /

BTW, if you scroll down to his blog, "Amplifying a Point" he reveals the truth behind the "rich pay a larger share of federal tax revenues" myth.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Those are the standards in civilized countries correct? nt
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. I wonder how many Americans agree with us?
I wonder how many Democrats would?

:hi:


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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
122. solidarity should be more important than profits..
something truely civilized countries have come to understand and are more than happy to pay more in taxes for it.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #122
130. Yes, for all of our pounding our chests & insisting we're number one,
Denmark consistently polls as the happiest country.

I saw a wonderful special on this a few years ago. What a lovely culture, where citizens have time to spend with family & friends & to pursue interests & hobbies instead of our constant chase for the almighty dollar.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Apparently the US can only dream of such comforts...
and that is the way corporations like it. Letting corporations dominate our government body is the result of our downfall, the US gave up on its citizens in order to lay with corporations and look where it has got us...smack dab and neck high in the shit. I find that letting the bottom fallout of the US to be a good thing, then hopefully, we can start over and do it right. Until we come together as a global society, we are all in a world of hurt.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
74. Yes, that is what any sensible government would do.
But our government is run by Big Money and for Big Profits, and none of that is seen as necessary.

Thanks for the links to Jared Bernstein. Wish we were sitting here typing about how grand our democratic system has proven to be. :-(

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
107. Really?
How could we afford war? Obviously war is the single most important national mission. We have to plan for the upcoming war with Iran too. We can't afford these frivolous things like health care and education.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #107
123. absolutley, and it is very very disgusting...nt
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Glad to hear you are well and in your challenging time, you are able to see the plight of others
and feel for them. Thank you for the report and many wishes for a speedy recovery to you Thom!
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. the pentagon/Barons take all our money - all of us should have


health care. period.

civilized countries have it.

us, the Empire, don't.
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vanlassie Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. Anybody who wants to believe that this was a "sucess" story is
just not clear about the realities for such patients. With hospitals overun with these patients now, I guarantee you that doctors, overworked and jaded, are letting people go every day who should never have had to present with such a late-stage cancer, or other illness.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. You have obviously made a full recovery judging by your 'tude.
Welcome back, Pilgrim. :hi:
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
19. Amen to that.
I love practicing medicine, but I'm so f*****g SICK AND TIRED of having to arm-wrestle the insurance companies best two-out-of-three just to get my patient an MRI. Our medical care system is top-notch; the insurance system which acts as the Berlin Wall barring access to it fucking SUCKS!

:grr: :mad: :nuke:
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Brigid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. Back when I was living here in Indy before,
I remember reading a newspaper story about a large medical practi ce here that employed eight full-time people who did nothing all day but sit on the phone and wrangle with payers like insurance companies. It's insane.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
106. The national average is 3 insurance insurance wranglers per doctor.
There is no way that can be efficient. Most medical office staff in the USA don't do a damn thing with medicine or care. Compare that to a doctor I k ow in Canada whose practice has 20 doctors. They employ 1 person for billing and almost all emitted are involved in direct patient care.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
108. It is actually insane.
But it preserves profit. And profit is God in this nation.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
104. In civilized countries clerks without medical degrees are proscribed from making
Medical decisions. It is practicing medicine without a license. How would you like a law like that in the USA?

2 out of 3 falls. Lmfao.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. Thanks for your story, but it outrages me.
For politicians who suggest charity instead of a social safety net, I ask this: "How the much have you contributed to charity, you miserly bastards, & do you think that that is enough to make up for a publicly funded safety net?"

Kudos to the caring administrators who worked quickly to get this man help.

Hope you're doing well, Thom.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!
:yourock:

:hi:

:grouphug:

:kick:
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. I am so grateful I live in MA where health coverage is possible
Glad you are doing well, ThomWV. Compassion for others helps the healing process. And I guess we all must start screaming even louder to get people like the guy you write about some help. It's a crime to allow people to suffer like that.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
86. I live in MA and don't need the MA Health plan.
I have military retiree care.

That said, I'm so glad some of my relatives have it--it was a lifesaver recently for one of them.

You're right about compassion--it does help, and I guess we could all use a little more in these tough times!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. while the story is infuriating -- it's good to see you posting. recommend. nt
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thank goodness for those programs, but it shouldn't have to be this way.
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ThatsMyBarack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks, ThomWV!
Sounds like you're doing better! :hi:

Medical bureaucarcy (SP??) is all part of a conspiracy to make the rich richer.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. K&R and bless you, ThomWV.
Your's is the right heart, the right attitude.

We NEED YOU! *hug*
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. k&r n/t
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. You sound like you are doing well, all thing considered.
Despite your ordeal, you sound like the old Thom, a true DUer and a true Democrat, who cares for others.

Rest and get better. We need you.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
43. Glad you're OK....
I'm glad your roommate got the surgery he needed. I hope his recovery goes well and that he finds a job in this harsh world we find ourselves.
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Pharaoh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
44. Point is
The rich have theirs and they don't want to kick in a few bucs for yours. That's the bottom line of the whole fucked up thing.
Pure selfish greed.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
45. I hope the guy makes out okay.
Chances are, if he's as broke as you describe, he'll be able to get on Medicaid. In this country if you're really rich or really poor you can get medical care. If you happen to be in between and down on your luck you're screwed. In any case, just about everyone in a dire situation will be bankrupt or drained of all resources unless they're wealthy. Glad to see you're back in good form!
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I doubt he could get on Medicaid.
That's been cut so much, you either have to be homeless, a child, or an infirm senior citizen who can't afford Medicare. And Medicaid won't cover all your medical expenses, anyways.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #49
109. Medicare is much harder to get on these day than many think.
It's been cut so many times and had so many restrictions placed on it that it is much harder to use these days than it used to be. You can thank the usual suspects for systematically starving it until it almost can't function.
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. I have a friend who has no insurance. He is good natured and works hard.
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 05:03 PM by ejpoeta
He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. Well, he hasn't been feeling well. He displayed this in front of my husband just after he pulled in the driveway a few months ago. Dropped to the ground in pain. He doesn't have insurance so did what anyone with no insurance tends to do.... hope it goes away. But it didn't. It got worse. He'd be driving and would get a warning right before a seizure so he'd pull over to the side of the road. The last time it happened he didn't get a warning, I guess, and it scared the heck out of him. he went to the hospital. They found a tumor on his brain. The size of a golf ball. He was at Strong in Rochester. They didn't worry abut money... went in and removed it. Set him up with chemo meds through the mail so he'd have em... That and radiation.

He is in the hole 65k right now. They took care of him though. I think about if he had waited much longer... He was at stage 3 cancer. What a different outcome it might be. Instead of walking over to physical therapy and being home and out in my back woods hunting. I am so thankful that the hospital took care of him. But you are right... if he had insurance he would probably have gone to the doctor before. Maybe it would have been something they could have taken care of even easier.... and the position of the tumor was such that they could go in and remove it easily (for a tumor in a person's brain). I am so thankful he is ok. I want everyone to have the chance at a good outcome and having access to health care BEFORE it becomes something really bad is what we need.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
50. Thank you for telling his story, ThomWV
Edited on Sat Nov-19-11 05:47 PM by MissDeeds
And I am so very glad to see you posting again. Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery for both you and your roommate.

K&R
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
53. Glad to see you posting ThomW ... what an experience to go through.
And even those of us with insurance are paying through the teeth for it ... if I could only make one change in this country single payer health would be it.
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sandyj999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
54. Thom I told you that you would be back. Good to see you! n/t
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. Worst industrialized nation on the Planet.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
87. Hey now, Obama runs around on the campaign trail and brags about how we are the
ENVY OF THE WORLD! :silly:

Not sure how he figures that? :shrug:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #87
110. They told him that on Fox News.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
56. So GLAD you're back ... positive thoughts for your recovery! nt
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
58. wow. what a story. I'm so glad it ended with the guy getting surgery.
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Charlemagne Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
63. Disgusting
The absolute terror of the for-profit system. This scheme is disgusting.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
66. knr - and I'm sure there are countless stories just like this one in virtually every hospital and
clinic in America
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
67. glad you made it okay
Glad your neighbor made it through okay, too.

It's incredibly sad he had to beg and grovel for needed medical care. That sort of thing just destroys pride. :-(
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
68. No one should have to go through that. If the same thing happened to me, there
would BE no such help. You see, I own a small business, and no matter how close I am to losing everything, until I have actually lost it all, the system doesn't have anything to offer me but medical bills and bankruptcy.

SINGLE. EFFIN'. PAYER. NOW.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #68
111. And what you said is exhibit one in the case against insurance
Being the number one destroyer of business start ups and innovation. Wired published a study a few years back on the reasons people Dont start their own companies and the number one reason with a bullet was health insurance. Business people plan for and manage risk every day, but no one can plan for a medical emergency.

And that simple fact is destroying innovation in america.
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cantbeserious Donating Member (270 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
70. Health Care Injustice Is Everywhere For All To See
eom
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
71. Dude! Glad we get to see you! n/t
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
72. Welcome back, Thom. Here's that cold one I promised you. Now, drink your medicine.
:toast: :beer:
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
77. so very glad things went so well for you!
Glad to see you back!

As for your roommate, I feel badly for him but glad to know he hasn't been kicked to the curb as so many many others have. You're spot on about nothing else being good enough but single payer universal health care just like every other civilized country has managed to do.


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Firebrand Gary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
79. Thanks for the post ThomWV, glad to see you back online.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
80. I agree .... we have a huge problem, Houston...
And, if the 99% of us can ever hope to accomplish something from the occupy movement, it should start with Medicare for all, single payer.

It's simply inhumane to have it any other way.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
82. Glad they could help him.
What a miserable situation, and it is a mark of national shame.

Fuck the insurance companies and fuck Obamacare. We need national healthcare now. Not in 2014, today and retroactive. Fuck the rich, fuck the banks, fuck the capitalists.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
83. kr
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
84. MASS HEALTH. I know people who get care and have been saved, thanks to it.
Romney did it, cravenly, so he could run for President on it. He didn't realize that the GOP were such cheap, miserable "I've got mine" assholes, which is ironic considering he's one of those types himself. Anyway, it was his "triangulation" issue and it's saved a lot of peoples' hides here in MA.

Not perfect, but it's what we need nationwide, at least to start. Once people realize that it's not the end of the world to have some kind of health insurance, they start to like it, and they LOVE it when someone in their family needs it.


I am so happy to see you posting. You've been in my thoughts all week.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
89. According to the GOP
the adherents of Ayn Rand are allowed to loot the system. So your friend and those like him are unemployed and left in the lurch.

Delighted that you are doing well!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-19-11 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
90. This is the value system our leaders are trying to impose on us
You have the right to stay alive WHILE YOU HAVE A JOB. WHILE YOU HELP MAKE SOMEONE ELSE RICH.

The moment you cease to do either, you are left to die.

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DollyM Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
91. that is one of my biggest fears . . .
I been have out of work nearly a year now and figure I only have a few months of unemployment left. No insurance, barely eaking by and realizing that at 50, my odds of getting a job are getting pretty slim. I can't afford the cortisone shots for my knees that keep my walking or the pain medication that gets me through the nite. But I figure as long as I am not working, what difference does it make? My mother, who is 84, has stage 4 colon cancer, I got her on Medicaid so she wont' have to pay future bills but still owes the cancer treatment center 13 thousand dollars which she is paying them for at 100.00 a month out of her social security. I have often thought if I got cancer or some life threatening illness, I would just tell them to give me a big bottle of Vicoden and forget treatment. I am not going to run up millions in bills and be hassled for payment the way my mother was before I got her on Medicaid. It's horrible that so many people are having to come to this. When you are out of job and barely scraping by as it is, worrying about your health should be the last thing you should have to deal with. I just wonder, what is the rate of people applying for Disability in other countries that have socialized medicine? Since they can get preventative and early care, is it less than the rate of the US? How many people here are putting off preventative care thus allowing a small health care issue to grow into a major one? If it all comes down to dollars in this country, can we make an arguement that socialized medicine would reduce the amount of those applying for permanent disability payments in the US?
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
92. i so agree.
that poor bastard's story is legion.
and now that he gets to live i suppose the rest of his days he will spend dogged by unimaginable debt because of this incidence. he should be able to just go and live.
our country is just gone. occupy. it's our only hope.
once again thomwv just want to say how happy i am for your great outcome.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
93. he still has the bill to worry about, correct? n/t
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
94. Great Post! K&R
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
96. Your last para is absolutely, positively spot on!
A civilized country ensures that ALL of its citizens have access to quality health care that does not refuse, haggle with or bankrupt them.

Thanks for sharing this story, ThomWV. The tragedy is that such medical issues/complications, etc. are more typical than not when people cannot afford to see their doctors on a routine basis and most have no satisfactory resolution because the godawful system that the US calls "health care" is truly dysfunctional - not because we don't have plenty of dedicated, qualified medical personnel - but because those same medical personnel are not even the ones allowed to make the treatment decisions so long as profit is the primary consideration.

I am so glad that you are feeling so feisty after your own surgery. Please get completely recovered soon! :loveya:
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
113. There are millions in this man's situation
hoping they can survive long enough to get some sort of insurance or medical treatment. And if not? Well, that's just that many more people they won't have to pay out SS or Medicare for.
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
118. So great to see you back!
What a relief.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
120. Thanks for the pic and so happy you are doing well.
I have some of those bastards growing in me and appreciate knowing what I'm dealing with. Hoping the pain goes away soon. Take advantage of the pain killers, they won't let you have enough to become an addict. Heal quickly, Thom.
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
124. My husband is convinced they are letting the baby boomers
die on purpose because there is too many for the social security and medicare programs. He thinks that is why they are letting things get worse and worse and that they will fix it later after many have died. that's why they want to make medicare come at later age etc too many of us...
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
125. stories like this make me question the moral authority our country claims
he almost died because of what?.....talk about "death panels"
how common is this? I would bet fairly common, especially now
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
127. .
: :grouphug:
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
128. Kick.
:kick:

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