The importance of religious freedom

[quinnox]

Personally I think the religious freedom we have in this country is one of the most important freedoms. Religion has always been a sensitive and very personal topic to most people and the fact that you can believe in anything you choose to without others interfering or stopping you is key to many peoples contentment and peace of mind. That is why sometimes I feel some on the left go too far in trying to stamp out all remnants of religion in every day life, such as even a simple Christmas display, say, on some school's grounds or in a mall for example. I don't think you can legislate your way to try and influence people to make them not believe in their religions and that is going to fail every time. If you don't believe in any religion, that is great, good for you. And its also great for those of any faith to practice their religion when it gives them contentment.

[Brickbat]

1. The problem comes when people in authority use that authority to promote their own beliefs.

This is pretty basic and clear-cut law.

[Fumesucker]

2. There are a roughly equal number of Jews and atheists in the USA..

There are plenty of Jewish politicians, both locally and at the federal level.

Can you name an atheist politician at the federal level?

[dtexdem]

5. But I thought that Obama was an atheist Islamic Marxist nazi.

;-)

[dmallind]

11. There are several times the number of atheists, although labels are fungible, and I can name but one

national Rep. And he only admitted it after 17 re-elections to one of the safest Dem seats, after he was threatened with outing. Atheists are unelectable under normal circumstances.

Pete Stark BTW.

[Fumesucker]

15. So much for religious freedom, eh?

:evilgrin:

[dmallind]

19. Been gone a long time if you want to be elected. nt

[Brickbat]

3. You might want to check out Americans United.

It's an organization that guards the line between the separation of church and state, but in a way that respects all religions. The guy who runs it is a pastor. I have a dear friend who is also a pastor and a member of AU. As someone who could generously be described as agnostic, I think it's an excellent organization. Their website and mailings might give you some perspective on balancing your personal opinions with what the law says.

[piratefish08]

4. problem I have is when people in the US want their religious freedom, what they generally mean

is they want their Christian religious freedom.

I have no problem with ANY public religious displays - as long as any and all symbols are allowed to exist together.


including my Flying Spaghetti Monster.

please do not mock my beliefs.

[dtexdem]

6. Ooh, good idea: decorate your Xmas tree with mealball ornaments and spaghetti 'icicles.'

Seriously, someone should produce the FSM Xmas tree decorations.

[piratefish08]

8. we have had a FSM tree topper for 6 years now.

buddy christ hangs as an ornament.

i'll give the dude equal time - he had a lot of good shit to say!

[quinnox]

7. I have no problem if anyone wants to believe in the elder gods

even those which should remain nameless for humanitys' sake, heh

[dmallind]

9. Religious freedom or freedom to impose religion?

Are there not enough private places with nativity displays that we have to use taxpayer (including non-Christian taxpayer) money to endorse the governmental version? Oh and don't think you got away with the school/mall bait andswitch either. A mall is private property and the owners can put up what they like. A public school is government property and must adhere to the establishment clause. Reliious freedom doesn't include the freedom to make me pay to impose your religion on me.

[quinnox]

10. wow, a little touchy huh

this is exactly what I'm talking about, you say I'm baiting and switching with the mall and school and you get super technical like a lawyer or something and it just seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

[dmallind]

13. The first amendment's basic meaning is "super technical"? REAL religious freedom is

"a mountain out of a molehill". You may have missed some Civics instruction, but trust me religious freedom means the government doesn't get to pick one and support it.

[NNN0LHI]

14. Poster did not get super technical like a lawyer

Poster explained it in about the most sensible and coherent way it can be explained.

Just because you didn't like the explanation doesn't make it technical.

Don

[Brickbat]

17. Those "super-technical" ideas are what PROTECT your religious freedom as well.

[redqueen]

12. I wouldn't disagree with a Christmas display.

Christmas is as much about Jesus as Halloween is about honoring or appeasing the dead.

Most of the people who celebrate it are not practicing Christians.

Now a nativity scene, or a cross... anything trying to make the pagan winter fest with the pagan tree once more about their religion... that would be crossing a line, IMO.

I also would have no problem with religion in schools if it were in the form of a class about ALL religion, and not just the favored one of the locals.

I noticed you didn't answer the question about the lack of representation for non-believers in elected office. Do you not consider this a problem?


*edit: lol, I meant 'dead' not 'undead'. I'm a little to fond of zombies. And vampires.

[quinnox]

16. no, I don't think its a problem really

First, you have to take into account how many people identify themselves as atheist, it's a fairly low percentage of the population. Then consider the odds of being elected to an office, which are long to begin with. It makes sense to me statistically speaking that there aren't hardly any people like that around just based on these factors.

Second, more than likely some of those people who say they have a religious faith are faking it anyway to play the game and get elected in the first place because they are politicians.

[madmom]

24. But that is part of the problem... they have to fake being religious to get elected. As far

as how many people identify as atheist, probably a lot more than you think. What about Bernie Sanders and being a socialist?

[redqueen]

25. Sorry but you're wrong. There are as many atheists as Jewish people

and Jewish people are represented. Would you consider it a problem if they were not?

Do you know how many atheists hold elected office at the federal level?

Your apparent gut feelings about what you think makes statistical sense are way off the mark.

Perhaps you might want to ruminate on why politicians would have to fake being religious in the first place.

Religious belief is the only irrational belief that we are conditioned by society to tiptoe around, and give special credence to.

The result is that people can't get elected if they don't join in the game of 'let's play pretend'.

It's embarrassing, really. Or it should be.

[Fumesucker]

28. Yes, a fairly low percentage of the population, roughly equivalent to Jews..

Ever heard of Holy Joe Lieberman?

Chuck Shumer?

Carl Levin?

Rahm Emanuel?

[quinnox]

29. people of jewish faith often are able to attain high achievements

in life, that doesn't surprise me to be honest. Perhaps they work really hard or have connections or whatever the case may be.

[redqueen]

30. Wow. (nt)

[Fumesucker]

32. Yep, all atheists are stupid, ignorant and lazy..

Got it..

[LibertyLover]

20. Well, since for me, and many other pagans, Halloween, or Samhain as I call it

is a major Sabbat and is for honoring the dead, I guess Christmas is about Jesus. :evilgrin:

[Bluenorthwest]

18. I'd like religious folks to freely go practice in private and

shut the fuck up with the 'we are the voice of God against gays' routine. How's that? Fact is the religious oppose and prevent the freedoms of others while they are free to shout God at people, bullying allowed if it is 'faith based' and all of that. The President says his religion is the reason he thinks the Gingriches are 'Sanctified' and gay people are not, his surrogates say we are under 'demonic influences' and crazy 12th Century shit like that.
No one in the country is trying to stop anyone from believing anything, and you know that, which makes your post forbidden by Christ anyway. So your 'religion' sure is not in evidence in your actions here today, for those of us that know your Scriptures as opposed to what the radio and the preacher man tells you.

[quinnox]

22. well, excuse me, but I never said I was a christian

you are wrong on that score. I never said what my religion is, or if I even have one.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Well you step up to speak for their freedom so you should do

so according to their ways. Seems reasonable. You play with public and private space as if it were the same, and employ hyperbolic rhetoric such as suggesting that others seek to stop people from believing when they object to being subject to other people's religions. You know that is not the case, and yet you employ this rhetoric to defend a faith that forbids such rhetoric so they can be 'free' to impose their dogma on others who do not want to live by that dogma.
I had much to say other than the fact that none of the 'faith people' actually follow the rules of their self proclaimed faith, apparently their volunteer defense committee does not either. Hypocrites and hypocrisy have zero moral standing, and zero religion, they are just wrapping their own egos in some language, calling it God and demanding that others pay homage. No thanks.
They are the ones who openly organize against the freedoms of others. They spend millions, they go on TV, they slander, they protest, they push legislation, all to stand against the freedom of their neighbors. Odd that you see them as the oppressed. When they are the oppressors.

[quinnox]

27. I should have mentioned other religions I see

I considered talking about some symbols of other religions but didn't. So I see why my mention of Christianity set you off a bit. Anyway, my post was meant to encompass all religions, not just Christianity but Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever.

I see you are zeroed into Christianity based on some offenses you feel they directed at you and/or their influence in our culture. I don't think they are oppressing people, sorry, when religious people of certain faiths have gotten in my face and wanted to talk to me about their faith, which has happened to me in the past, I politely tell them I'm not interested and they move on as pleasant as can be. I have never had an unpleasant encounter with anyone trying to push their religion onto me.

[hifiguy]

21. The mall can do whatever it wants to do

because it's private property. I have no objections whatsoever to that - it's their property, let them do as they wish.

Public property and buildings - particularly public schools - are a different matter, especially in an increasingly diverse country.

[Arugula Latte]

23. You've got it exactly backwards. The problem is religious people shoving their idiocy into law.

Anti gay laws, anti abortion laws, and many others going back through the centuries, all based on and justified by a book of mythology.

[SheilaT]

31. You are free to believe and worship exactly

as you please. In private. You are not free to force your beliefs on anyone else. This is why religious displays of any kind have absolutely no place anywhere funded by government, including court houses and public schools.

Those who claim something is "non-denominational" truly don't get it that what they think is so, is actually a particular kind of mainstream Protestant stuff. If you want to offer a prayer, let's go with a Hail Mary, or an Apostle's Creed.

And of course, even the most supposedly innocuous Christian stuff leaves out every single non-Christian belief system, not to mention all those who are atheist or agnostic. So it comes back to worshiping and praying and all that in private.

[Arugula Latte]

33. If you want to take issue with something, why not this type of crap? This goes on all the time:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2329021&mesg_id=2329021