In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked

[Liberal_in_LA]

In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked

Ian Swanson was 5 when his family moved from the United States to Umeå, a small university town in northern Sweden. It was the place where he made his first friends, where he learned to read and where, like any kid, he was "into absolutely everything."

He occasionally got a spanking from mom, or a swat on the rear and a stern look from his dad. But he remembers one day when his kindergarten teacher, school principal and a social worker came to their home. They worried Ian wasn't fitting in; they wanted to talk about the "abuse."

Swanson remembers translating for his parents, who were still learning the language, too: "'You have to understand, things are different here.'"

In 1979, a few years before the Swanson family arrived, Sweden became the first country to ban physical punishment of children.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/index.html?hpt=hp_bn4

[stellanoir]

1. "Violence (only) begets violence."

Now where did I hear that. . .?

No child ever deserves to be struck.

Diversion is the true art of parenthood.

[Happyhippychick]

2. Can't wait for the day that is true for American children

[TBF]

3. Sounds like a country I would love to live in -

I will never understand how it is battery to hit random folks on the street, but you are allowed (even encouraged) to beat your own children in this country. It's barbaric.

[trof]

4. And then he became a spoiled brat.

Just kidding.
I spanked our daughter once, and I still regret it.
It was your standard ran-out-in-the-street-after-a-ball thing.
How many times had we told her "NEVER RUN OUT INTO THE STREET"?
Several.
But impulse takes over.

She was almost hit by a car.
I saw the whole thing and I damn near had a cardiac arrest right then.
Scared the shit out of me.
I grabbed her up and paddled her bottom with my open hand.
HAVEN'T WE TOLD YOU NEVER TO GO IN THE STREET FOR ANYTHING!?

I was scared and angry.
And I was wrong.

P.S.
She's 40 now, and she's forgiven me.
:-)

[A HERETIC I AM]

6. Bet she never ran out into the street again. n/t

[Th1onein]

7. Actually, you were not wrong at all.

When the actions of a small child would put that child in physical danger, you SHOULD spank the child IMMEDIATELY. You want to pair the dangerous activity with physical or emotional suffering. It is a different story when children are older, of course. Spanking, or any physical punishment, at that point, usually leads to the child engaging in the forbidden activity in secret.

[CreekDog]

8. It's not necessary

Millions of children here and around the world live in relative safety without ever being hit by their parents.

So you are wrong that one must spank for fear of the consequences if one doesn't. The idea that you're evangelizing spanking is troubling because it advocates violence against children.

And don't say I'm arguing that one should do nothing in the face of danger (kind of waiting for that argument)...if you think all the only option is hitting, then there is something wrong.

[Fumesucker]

19. I had the experience of watching my brother hit by a car when I was 12 and he was 8..

We were walking home from school and had to cross a four lane road on the way, I was waiting for a car coming from the left when my brother darted out across the road and was hit by a car coming from the right which I never saw until the screeching of the brakes.

My brother was hit, knocked about thirty feet but the car hadn't stopped by the time it got to him again and so it hit him a second time.. He was laying in the street with his right leg folded over his shoulder, eyes closed and not moving, I thought he was dead but thankfully he was only knocked out as I discovered when he started to move after about a minute or so. He was over three months in the hospital in traction with a broken hip and then spent another three months in a cast from armpits to toes.

That experience has colored my entire life in some ways, when my daughter was five we moved from a very quiet rural area with a huge yard on a rarely traveled road to a place on a busy street with a small front yard. After three times in fewer weeks of seeing my five year old child running out into a street that often had cars coming by at 50 plus mph, I gave up on talking and time-outs and paddled her butt pretty hard. She never ran in the street again after that. I'll never know for sure but I think there's a good chance I saved her from death or serious injury.

If my daughter had been killed by a car because I did not sufficiently impress upon her the seriousness of not running in the street I would probably have committed suicide from guilt, grief and remorse.

[CreekDog]

22. it's ridiculous to think that spanked children are safer around cars than non-spanked children

yet that's what's being argued here.

[Fumesucker]

26. Ever had someone you love run over right in front of you?

It's a horrendous experience, I wouldn't wish it on Jerry Sandusky.

I *tried* the non-spanking way, I'm far from a violent person. It.did.not.work. My daughter continued to run into the street.

ETA: I forgot to mention that a few months after the spanking incident we had a small puppy that got out of the house, ran in the very same road from the very same yard and was squashed flat in an instant.

That could have easily been my child.

[CreekDog]

27. i'm not going to help you rationalize spanking

you did what you did, you explained why you did it.

what you don't know and what you cannot prove is that it was the only solution or alternative you had.

what you're arguing is that either she gets hit by you or gets hit by a car. the problem is that you think those were the only choices you were left with.

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

28. Hit by me stings for a few minutes..

Hit by a car can easily mean death or permanent injury.

The two are by no means equivalent and to try to make it so is intellectually dishonest.

It was a rental so putting up a fence was out of the question.

Tell me what my other choices were since you're such an expert.

[intaglio]

30. You have not thought about this

Knowing someone killed by a car has coloured your perceptions. You tell us that it happened several times, which means that the spanking had no effect and that probably means it was your daughter's normal development of impulse control which ended her behaviour, not your punishment. I suspect that your punishment has just made your daughter unwilling to talk to you about the risks she takes in everyday life, it could mean the first time you know she is thinking about unprotected sex is when she turns up pregnant or infected. If that happens will you still spank her?

The "spanking for their own good" defense is no defense, it is just a slippery slope. Will you spank her if she turns Republican? Or if she joins a cult? If you were religious would you spank her because she did not say her prayers? Spank her for not obeying biblical injunctions? Would you turn your family into the Pearl family and publish your own version of "To Train Up a Child"?

Consider, would you still have spanked your daughter if she had been clipped by a car and bruised? Would you still spank her if she had gotten a broken leg? What if she had gone on life support? Would you have thrashed her mangled body?

[Fumesucker]

32. You haven't read what I wrote very closely..

My brother wasn't killed and there were several instances of my daughter running in the road but only one spanking, after which she kept away from the road.

BTW, the spanking was over twenty five years ago, my daughter is now a mother of three herself and is a far stricter disciplinarian with my grandkids than I ever was with her but her personality type would make an outstanding Marine Drill Instructor whereas I'm a very easy going person most of the time, basically she has a whim of iron. We have discussed discipline as adults and she told me that she has no problem with anything she can remember me doing.

Your comparisons are ludicrous, nothing you came up with is an immediate mortal danger like getting hit by a car.

You don't mention whether you have kids of your own but if you do then you know that no amount of telling a child something will hurt them will always keep them from doing that thing, at some point they are going to touch the hot stove when your back is turned. Funny thing is that after they touch the hot stove once they lose interest in doing it again for some reason.

My feelings on spanking are similar to my views on abortion, it should be safe, legal and rare.

As for taking risks, my daughter is a biker and we have ridden together many times so she's hardly afraid to tell me of the risks she takes in life, but she takes those risk as an adult with full knowledge of the consequences of error.

[Celefin]

34. Here's some moral backup

Thanks for that post, you saved me from having to write it.

Exactly what you said. Two slaps on the backside by a terrified parent finally made her stop running out into the road, giggling madly at daddy who was shouting at the top of his lungs and at the very last moment managed to yank her away from an oncoming car whose driver got her life's shock. Admittedly, she should have been spanked as well for going much too fast but I kind of didn't think about that just then when I had almost seen my little girl crushed before my eyes.

In the case of the car, letting themselves get hurt just doesn't work -it means letting themselves get killed. Another nice game was trying to put the hand on the hot stove to grab one of the pans (preferably the one with boiling water, of course). It stopped after a planned accident. Telling her again and again that it was dangerous, it would hurt, and so on but then refraining from pushing her away as usual - only making sure the stove was not red hot and there was no boiling water - and already preparing the ice cubes to manage the inevitable. Guess what... she has now taken to telling her little sister off for wanting to touch the stove. 'No Hannah, bad OW!'.

*sigh*

Never, ever hit out in anger or frustration. It WILL make matters worse.
But for some kids, a very rare spanking is the only thing that gets through and prevents them from killing themselves. Wish it weren't so.
Our youngest child is mortified if mum or dad even look a little worried, no matter if she's had anything to do with the reason for that or not. Oh, and she admires her spirited, older sister who in turn loves her to bits. If only kids came with a manual.

[CreekDog]

39. So you're saying you inflict pain on your child, purposely

How do you decide how much pain they should experience?

Don't hit kids. If you set out to inflict pain, that's wrong, on a child, it's worse.

If you do it with full control of your wits and actions, that's disturbing.

[uponit7771]

53. "If you set out to inflict pain, that's wrong, on a child, it's worse."....your not setting out to

...inflict pain, that's were most anti spankers are wrong IMHO.

[CreekDog]

61. so simple touching is all you need to do

no pain at all, correct?

[CreekDog]

80. So you're saying that spanking shouldn't cause physical pain

correct?

[Celefin]

73. No I don't.

Where did you get the idea that I 'set out to inflict pain'.
"Yeah, tomorrow I'll rough her up good an proper, that'll show her." That way? That's ridiculous, sorry.

The only thing 'I set out to do' in relation to pain is giving my kids the opportunity to hurt themselves, if they so must, in a controlled and save environment where we make sure to remove any real danger so that they can learn to value advice out there in the real world. And so they won't get really badly hurt once one of the parents isn't in the immediate vicinity to constantly supervise them. There's a reason for their confidence and self-respect that our friends (and we) always admire in them.

If you are actually interested in what I'm really trying to convey in this discussion, please try and read responses #31, #71 and #72 on this thread.

Does it help if I tell you that I fully agree with all three of your statements above?
Please don't be so very quick to judge people.

[kenfrequed]

45. That is a stupid argument.

Are you then suggesting the only thing preventing millions of children from hurling themselves before cars in the street is a good spanking? F^@%!ng absurd.

Go sell crazy someplace else, I'm not buying it.

[uponit7771]

54. Cause every child gets it they'll die if they run in front of a moving car? Really?

[kenfrequed]

55. To quote Strongbad.

This sentence needs more.... uhm... sentence.

[uponit7771]

58. Not every child responds to a sit down teaching of why not running in front of cars isn't a good ...

...thing. I do believe spanking should be of last resort, or one of them, but its not to be excluded from an escalation of what gets a persons child to respond to what the parent wants.

When you don't have an immediate consequence for bad actions it's easier to take them again...look at Wall Street, I bet if we could kick their ass's on a daily basis for screwing up our economy they'd change something different.

Also, if it's used too many times then it's used wrong...

[kenfrequed]

79. Nice attempt

Bad analogy. Again, violence only teaches violence as a legitimate solution.

[uponit7771]

51. Correct, if teaching and talking it out didn't get the response needed then what else but the threat

...is left?

Thx in advance for any input

[LeftyMom]

77. Maybe you should have put up a fucking fence.

Hitting kids is not okay, ever, for any reason. If you'd done the same to your spouse, who presumably is a good bit bigger and infinitely better equipped to defend themselves against your violence, you'd have gone to jail.

Your having issues based on childhood trauma is not an excuse to abuse a child. We all have them for one reason or another.

[unblock]

11. i've thought about this situation, and i think it's not a good idea even then.

partly because the spank is coming from another human, and in particular one who's supposed to be a source of love.

if the spank could somehow come from a disembodied outside force, then the logic of pairing a risky but very dangerous situation with some concrete but controlled physical pain might hold.

but the fact that it's coming from a human complicates it. so not only are you pairing something like running out into the stress with physical pain, but you're also pairing love and dependence and so on with physical pain. you're also upping the ante. anything you do after will not be taken as seriously unless you spank or threaten to spank.


note i'm not talking about the ethical side of it, i'm only talking about the practical effects.

[laundry_queen]

13. You know what gets a better reaction?

By better I mean they pay more attention. I had a friend that spanked her 'spirited' child when she'd do something dangerous. Her kid would cry, then run away from her mom. I, on the other hand, would do a loud inhale and say in a panicked voice, "omg <insert child's name here> that's a BIG no-no (adjust language depending on age) You could have been hurt! That would make you and mommy very sad! Never EVER do that again! OMG, I'm SO glad you're okay." Usually my tone of voice was enough to startle them, since they didn't hear it very often and they'd STARE intently while I was ranting on and on. The times where I was seriously scared (the worst was when my oldest ran out from between cars in a parking lot - I had been holding her hand but she slipped out and RAN - and a car nearly hit her, they had to slam on their brakes and I heard tires squeal and the car stopped about a foot from my 3 year old), where I thought I was going to witness my child's death, I would break down and cry and hug my child while telling them "that was SO dangerous, don't EVER do that again, I'm SO glad you're okay" Let me tell you, my kids always had a much more pronounced reaction to my reaction to their danger, than my friend's kids had to her swatting on the rear. My kids would often start crying too and hugging me, and then wouldn't leave my side for the rest of the day. I never understood the message kids got after doing something like running into the street then getting spanked. It's like the parent is saying "I'm so thankful you're okay and that you didn't get hurt, now here, I'm going to hurt you so you don't do it again." WTF? What a confusing message and what a way to fuck up a kid's head.

[woo me with science]

24. Great post. I remember a psychological study

from back in the 90's that tried to correlate empathy in kids with their parents' parenting styles. The main finding was that the most empathetic kids had parents who showed clear emotion when correcting them for hurting another child. Kids whose parents simply used calm explanation without much emotion attached to it were not as empathetic, nor were kids whose parents lost control and got too angry.

The researchers hypothesized that the emotion in the parents' voices highlighted the importance of the lesson and helped the kids put themselves in the other child's shoes. Not enough emotion from the parent, and the event didn't really register as important. Too much emotion, and the child feared for his own safety and wasn't able to empathize.

I think you are exactly right that kids pay attention to things that affect their parents emotionally. I think your post is spot on.

[Celefin]

31. Only if your child is receptive to that, regrettably

Our older one (3.5 years) has never ever reacted in the way you describe... and we've tried everything in the book, including your approach, and then some more.
It's a game to her, the more 'reaction' she gets out of her parents, the better, it seems.

I'm not holding that against her (as holding something against a kid of 3.5 is pretty stupid)... but at one point you HAVE to find something that works.
Physical abuse, as this is rightly called, is the very, very last resort in trying to protect her from killing herself (or her younger sister at that, which she kicked down the stairs a few months ago - that was the first time ever I resorted to two hard slaps on her backside and I hate to acknowledge it, but it worked).

She's a real free spirit, one that would have been perpetually beaten in former times and probably 'broken in' at one point. A completely horrifying thought for me. And we've already asked a lot of experts in daycare and kindergarten who give all the same advice you gave. When they finally get to know our little revolutionary, they usually end up saying 'uh, you just have to make your point somehow' after everything they try also fails... well yeah thank you, we figured that out already.

Her sister on the other hand is incredibly receptive to your approach and pretty much starts crying when mom or dad just look the slightest bit worried about something. The two are like day and night... and love each other to bits.

[uponit7771]

56. AMEN! I dont beleive a one size fits all approach to raising kids is the best, there should be...

...guidelines but if your child isn't responding to avoiding danger then try something else.

Spanking should be last resort but not excluded all together.

[laundry_queen]

65. Well, my 4.5 yo is like your older one

Seriously, very little ability to learn from past errors, or past punishments. So far, I still haven't resorted to spanking, because I simply don't make it an option. I just have made myself be extra vigilant. She's not allowed to do many things, such as play outside on her own (in a fenced, safe yard) things her older sisters were all doing by her age. She simply does not have the impulse control yet to stop herself. What I do (and I consulted with a child psychologist on this) is do everything I can to foster her innate sense of empathy and intrinsic discipline. It's a long and complicated process but I'm commited to not hitting my kids. I think there is something that will work for your daughter you just haven't found it yet. 3.5 is awfully young to comprehend things. Heck, they are not even intellectually equipped to understand sharing until they are in 1st grade. 3.5 is still a baby to me. BTW - I have plenty of friends who are childcare workers - they are generally not very well versed in that kind of discipline. Consult a child psychologist who specializes in things like play therapy. My 8 yo sees one for issues related to her dad and I splitting up and it has seriously helped more than you can imagine. I bet you'd get some great advice that would help you avoid hitting your daughter anymore.

[Celefin]

71. Thanks for the un-agitated reply

First of all, I'm not hitting my daughter on a regular basis and I feel the need to make that absolutely clear. Nothing could be further from me.

I've so far hit her once and more or less accepted to hurt her once:
Once when she kicked her younger sister in the face and down the stairs after a million stern words about not doing anything like that ever, and especially NOT on the stairs. It resulted in my wife spending most of the evening in the hospital to check up on the little one who miraculously hadn't suffered any real damage despite there being blood everywhere. I spent the evening with the older one sitting on my lap, telling her how much I love her, how much her little sister loves her and that daddy was sorry to have hit her but that I'd do it again if she ever kicked the little one in the face again or threw her down the stairs again because it could be that the little one would be gone forever then. I can't properly relay how big those eyes looking up at me where. *sigh* And no, before I hit her, she thought it was a game. After that, when I had comforted her for a long while, she actually listened. It has never happened again. Fingers crossed.

The other time was the famous out-in-front-of-a-car thing. I caught up with just in the nick of time and yanked her on to the sidewalk more roughly than strictly necessary which, I guess, actually hurt more and for longer than a spanking would have done. It wasn't on purpose though, but thinking is a little difficult when you're running as fast as you can to save your child's life. It had a very definite effect though, as she hasn't done it again since.

And yes, 3.5 is awfully young. We both have to remind ourselves of that all the time because she already acts like a teenager half the time, seriously. It's ridiculous/incredible. People who don't know her are always completely baffled at hearing how young she is. They all guess somewhere around five, at least. Little one makes up for that though. Cutest little baby girl ever and will most likely stay that way until she's 15. Between the two of them, perfectly average children ;)

Thanks for your advice, I will give that some serious thought.

Let me finish by saying that I am terribly proud of my beautiful, free spirited daughter. And she knows it.
She will never be treated with anything but respect for who and how she is - and this, in the end, is the core issue in this whole debate.

[laundry_queen]

76. Ah yes.

My 8 yo is one of those kids who is 8-going-on-30 and when she was 3, she would say things that would blow your mind and make her sound like an old soul in a kid's body. I've seriously had more problems with her than my youngest, but at the moment she's doing really well (she's the one seeing the psychologist).

I didn't mean to insinuate you hit your daughter all the time, I understood that it was very rare but my writing wasn't very good at conveying that. And that's great that you respect your daughter's 'spiritedness'. Sometimes those type of children are the most challenging to raise but they are often the most successful in life with their energy and passion. She's probably destined for great things!

Oh, and a thought came to me - when my oldest was 3.5 she seemed very OLD to me (I had a newborn at the time) and I expected a lot of her for her age. Now that my youngest is 4.5 she seems SO much like a baby still! I think it's the ol'firstborn syndrome where there are a lot of expectations because they are the trailblazers. Not in a bad way, just different. And my oldest, was a crazy child until the day she turned 4 and it was like a light switch went on and she was suddenly as quiet as a mouse and very well behaved. So you never know what she may be like, she may turn out to be quiet yet. :) And the great thing is no matter what I'm sure you will love her for exactly the person she is, quiet or spirited. :)

[Celefin]

78. Thanks for your kind words

It does mean a lot. It really does.

After all, raising kids is the greatest adventure you could ever embark on. And yes, the firstborn has the un-thankful job of bringing the family into being.

Take care :)

[laundry_queen]

16. Ooops, dupe. Got a bug message. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Ugh

[Odin2005]

37. So you support child abuse? I hope you don't have kids.

[AverageJoe90]

43. I don't entirely agree with THAT, but..........

Yeah, it can be unneccessary in many cases, and I believe that there are much more effective types of discipline myself. =)

[AverageJoe90]

42. Hmmm........

Ah well, I'm glad to hear you guys have moved on. Best of luck to ya. =)

[supernova]

5. HtB's family spanks

His mid20s daughter spanks her five yo son.. And I cringe every time. To me it's just awful, but I'm not the kid's parent. I can only hope to over time lead by example.

[OutNow]

9. Never spank a kid

My parents (mostly my father) were violent to all three of their kids. I didn't like it; even at the time it seemed so unfair that a big person could hit a smaller person. Spanking with a belt, smacks in the face, etc. were administered regularly. When I was 16, and by that time bigger than my parents, my father smacked me in the face and I hit him back with a closed fist. That was the last time he struck me. I never hit my kids and even today I have discussions with my 5 year old grandson about violence. He knows grandpa doesn't like hitting or weapons or violent TV shows (not even violent cartoons). Peace is the answer.

[Cid_B]

12. Peace is the answer... until it's not...

Violence is the reality of the world and insulation makes it that much harder when he runs into someone who actually means him harm.

[girl gone mad]

18. Well that's the dumbest rationalization for child abuse ever.

Bravo.

[Cid_B]

20. If that is what you took away from that...

... then I'm kind of concerned for you.

I was referring to the total insulation from violence to include fighting, tv etc.. etc..

[CreekDog]

25. you act like that was your only post in the thread

and you act like you didn't advocated for spanking. you did. everyone can see your posts here.

it certainly is interesting that in a cryptic response to a story on spanking, you suggest the dangers of children not understanding violence.

and then you plead innocent that anyone could think you were suggesting that parents teach them by example.

the things you say on DU are so inflammatory, i sometimes suspect that's why you say them.

[Odin2005]

38. That's the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

[kenfrequed]

47. You know its funny

Most of the real Vets I know that have actually seen combat don't plaster it all over their ass and pretend that the things they had to do on the battlefield are great to apply in day to tday life. Most of them are grateful their asses aren't in a situation where they have to think, act, or be acted on that way.

[hughee99]

46. If peace is the answer,

then why do you think it was that the last time your father hit you was after the first time you hit him?

[Nye Bevan]

10. I wish that kind of intervention had happened with me as a kid.

I don't think I'm a better person for having been hit by my parents and teachers. But at least I've broken the cycle with my own kids.

[JDPriestly]

14. The most important thing is to never punish a child when you feel

angry which includes how you feel when your child wanders into the street. But if you have that as a principle guiding your conduct, you won't spank just to release your frustrations.

When my oldest daughter at age 4 took it upon herself to cut the hair of my youngest daughter, 21 months younger, I honestly can't remember what I did but I was very loud about it.

And verbal abuse can be pretty bad too.

Face it. Parents are human and have emotions. Same goes for children. But children can't argue or hit back.

My kids and I get along really well. My daughter never uses corporal punishment or even yelling on her young son (of course, he hasn't hit two yet), so I guess I wasn't very abusive.

[Taverner]

15. How many times do I have to say this - SPANKING DOESN'T WORK!!!

Besides teaching violence, "might makes right" and subordination, it also does not work

Let me put it this way - yelling at your kid, which is shown to not work, is more effective than spanking

[Cid_B]

21. Based on what?

Untold generations have grown up since the dawn of man with spanking. Were they all failures as children, parents and adults?

[CreekDog]

23. The poster did not say that spanking causes people to be failures as adults

But if you were spanked, did it cause you to tell falsehoods about people you talk about? :shrug:

[Taverner]

29. Spanking does not correct undesirable behavior

Like lying, being violent, being unethical...etc

That is what I mean

There is a wealth of research on this

Check out http://www.nospank.net/

[Celefin]

33. Entirely correct

The only place it can work is in stopping dangerous behavior, when the parent resorts to it immediately and in a way that to the child it is obviously out of fear for harm or death, NOT out of anger or frustration. The latter will only make it worse.

[uponit7771]

50. Nor should it

[kenfrequed]

48. untold generations

Also believed the sun spun round the earth, that there was a god (or gods) in the sky that watched your every move, that people with seizure disorders were possessed, that genocide was a ok, that the pain in your stomach was caused by a demon or small dwarf, and that Kings or tribal headmen were justified in killing you and taking everything you had because of divine right.

What a terrible argument you make.

[eilen]

40. My sister's kids are what I call "mother deaf"

as she has used yelling too much. I also don't like the way she yelled at them. I felt it was verbal abuse. I have yelled at my son at times and once or twice I probably swatted his behind when he was little and not listening but insisting on a harmful path but all in all, we did not need to do it often as he was pretty well behaved. He's 18 now and a good kid. I was threatened with the wooden spoon when I was a kid and my husband was beaten by his father so we were not harsh disciplinarians.

[uponit7771]

49. YES IT DOES!!! The worst of choices but it works to quickly change a behavior.

[GOTV]

35. This discussion is very interesting to me as a father of an almost 3 year old

At this point he's never been hit by us and we intend never to hit him. On the other hand I was only rarely spanked by my parents and I feel it has done me no harm. In fact, if I could make a list of things I wished never happened to me the items would be all pretty trivial and even then getting a spanking would not be near the top.

It's been fairly easy not to hit him because, first, he's exceptionally well behaved but also his physical skills are still such that we can almost always physically prevent him from hurting himself or others. But he's getting older, stronger, faster and both capable of, and interested in, taking greater risks. I was surprised just recently that he can climb a chain link fence.

I'm sure the day is coming that he will dash into the street faster than I can grab him and I just cannot say what I will do if that becomes a persistent behavior as it apparently was for another poster here. I can't blame others who have resorted to a spanking.

I've seen studies that say that spanking doesn't work but we really can't be the only species on the planet that won't adjust behavior in response to painful stimuli. In fact I think touching a hot stove is probably one of the most effective ways to learn not to touch the stove. However I realize that learning that some things in the world are dangerous, like hot stoves, is a lot different than learning that one of the dangerous things in the world is Daddy.

When they say that spanking doesn't work it makes some sense, depending on what you mean by work. If a kid gets spanked for using Daddy's power saw I understand that the kid will not learn that power saws are dangerous. After all the power saw didn't hurt, Daddy did. So the kid learns it's dangerous to let Daddy find out I used the power saw.

But in the case of running into the street. Again, since running into the street didn't hurt, the lesson of the spanking would be that letting Daddy see you run into the street hurts. That might be an acceptable lesson. At the very least the child might stop running into the street while I'm there - which either I or his Mother will be any time he's near a street for several more years.

So my goal is still never to spank but I can sympathize with anyone who does it rarely and only when their child puts themselves or others into danger of severe injury or death.

[Liberal_in_LA]

41. Thanks for your input. I hope you never spank!

[GOTV]

67. Me too and I forgot to mention one thing ...

... Our son certainly gets mad enough to hit us on occasion (no big deal, remember he's not quite 3) but still we'll get stern with him when he does it and if he persists he gets a time out. After the timeout he will usually be upset and we'll talk to him to try to get him to understand what he did to get the time out and how to avoid it in the future.

One of the things we'll almost always remind him is that "We don't hit each other and we've never hit you".

If I ever give him a spanking I'll not be able to say that again and I think it's more effective to be able to say "we've never hit you" that it would be if we had to give a more nuanced "We almost never hit you" or "We only hit you when you're really bad".

[Odin2005]

36. Any violence against a child, even "mere spanking" is wrong. Period.

Thank god there are some civilized countries in the world.

If you hit a child you are a child abuser, it's that simple. I am sickened by the posters in this thread defending hurting their own children.

[Uncle Joe]

44. "The United States and Somalia," that says a lot in and of itself. I also believe that Sweden has

an excellent approach to weaning society away from imposing violence on children without becoming too intrusive or draconian.

"The police are not going to say, 'This parent should be charged,'" said Durrant, who has studied the effects of Sweden's ban for decades. "The police will say, 'What you did is not OK, I understand why it happened, but you need to know that's against the law, and here are the supports available to you.'"

(snip)

The United States and Somalia are the only two countries that haven't ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, an international treaty that recognizes the human rights of people younger than 18.

Thanks for the thread, Liberal_in_LA.

[hughee99]

59. So those countries that are using children as soldiers have ratified the treaty?

It's a good thing too, or those kids would really be in trouble.

[Uncle Joe]

60. Yes they know which way the world is evolving, even if they don't live up to their words, the

only exceptions to this recognition, is a failed state led by warlords and Somalia.

[hughee99]

62. Come on, we live in a failed state run by corporations,

not warlords. Some of them like war, some of them don't.

[Uncle Joe]

64. "The military industrial complex;" basically warlords on steroids.

[hughee99]

66. I have a hard time picturing Apple as a warlord on steroids. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

68. That's why I put the "Military Industrial Complex" in quotes.

You know the same one that Ike was referring to in his farewell speech, the one that eats up an exorbitant amount of our national budget, so that we can keep troops stationed in well over a 100+ nations around the world as our domestic spending on the social safety net gets cannibalized and our nation's infrastructure decays from the inside out.

I agree not all corporations want war, just too many of the most powerful ones and they in turn can dominate the government and corporate media in general to promote their propaganda message of waging war.

My own gut feeling is that perhaps our aggressive nature is tied to not recognizing the rights of children not to be hit, I believe this also diminishes our overall ability to experience meaningful empathy, that lack of empathy diminishes our ability to learn from others, whether that be people or nations, because we can't or don't want to walk in their shoes, we have all the answers and lastly that leads us to become a nation that worships pride.


"Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall," or something to the effect.

[Pithlet]

52. The question is

Are the streets of Sweden littered with the carcases of toddlers who ran into the roads. Because every thread on the subject everywhere is filled with parents who only spank for this reason because they're convinced this is necessary and the only way to teach them to stay out of the road.

[Celefin]

69. Well, no...

because, believe it or not, the majority of Swedish parents spank their children for that as well.
Yes, they are theoretically risking imprisonment with that.

But that is not the point of this law, which btw.is exactly the same here in Denmark where I live. The point of the law is to prevent recurrent physical abuse that destroys children's lives. As it would be incredibly difficult to define 'recurrent' or for that matter also 'abuse' the law simply states that every , even the slightest, physical punishment is illegal. We like clearcut laws here in Scandinavia, most of the time at least.

And it works.

[Pithlet]

70. So the CNN article is one big pile of bunk, then?

Hmmmm

[Celefin]

72. No it isn't.

Swedish parents treat their children with the utmost respect, always.
You only spank somebody regularly (the key here being regularly as in accepted form of parental problem solving) whom you do not perceive as human being of equal worth. In Sweden, as in Denmark, spanking almost always only occurs after life-or-death situations when the parents are terrified by the narrowly avoided disaster and want to make absolutely sure that they will never, ever have to do it again.

Which is why it works. If mummy or daddy hit me -something they never ever do- it must have been a terribly grave situation that I will try to avoid in future. Because loss of control by terrified parents is terrifying.

By the way: 'spanking' needs some definition here. The Scandinavian version is not a prolonged, degrading and painful affair making the kid unable to sit down for the next day and unable to look you in the face for the next year. It is one or two hard slaps on the backside accompanied by a loud telling off. Followed by hours of comforting as soon as things have calmed down again. The whole point is to give the clearest warning possible without withdrawing your respect for the child as a person or even your love. It is, actually, not 'punishment' in the true sense of the word.
You can't 'punish' a little child as it's to young to understand the concept. If you try, you're certainly committing abuse. This is what the Swedish law is about and how it is used in practice, leading to some of the happiest children and young adults in the world with a very healthy sense of self-respect and worth.

Hope that clears that up.

[Pithlet]

74. Well, according to you, even given this second response, it is.

And I'm sorry, but I'm skeptical. Now, I realize that a law isn't necessarily going to have 100% compliance. I'm sure it rarely does, if ever. But I just don't think it would be universally ignored. I just have a hard time believing that. I think it's more likely closer to the truth that there has been a cultural movement away from corporal punishment given the laws and how long they've been in place, as the CNN article says. Heck, we're slowly moving away from it here, and we don't even have laws against it.

[Celefin]

75. Maybe I just talk too much.

You are entirely correct and I agree with you 100%.
Probably shouldn't try to eloquently debate something a 2am.

Sorry for not being able to convey in an understandable manner what I wanted to express.

[redqueen]

57. And soon, a generation of children raised without the idea that it's ok to buy sex.

I hope these ideas catch on. And I hope Sweden reconsiders, and adopts Denmark's and Norway's more progressive attitude about sexual objectification.

[Major Nikon]

63. There's no reason to spank when waving a gun around is far more effective

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