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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:53 AM
Original message
This is just plain embarrassing..
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. U.S.: Nice choo-choo twain . . . .
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. lol
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, but we start the most, most expensive and longest lasting WARS!
:grr: Our money is allocated for the MIC's important stuff. :grr:
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. yah! Everyone knows we have the greatest missiles!
:thumbsup:
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usrname Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. You'd figure...
if we were to require the MIC to transition into something that's not wafare related, wouldn't infrastructure rebuilding be the most sensible thing? They'll still make the billions, except that what they're building is creating things as opposed to destroying things. Building a train is no different than building a tank in that you have to put parts together. Chrysler managed to revamp their automobile manufacturing plants into tank building plants all within six months soon after WWII started. How hard is it for Raytheon or General Dynamics to retool their manufacturing plants (even if they're long shuttered) to build trains, civilian planes, roads, bridges, railroad tracks, light rail tracks, urban railway systems, etc?
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. That misses the point.
Chrysler isn't making tanks anymore, are they?

Most "defense" firms couldn't start making useful things, because then they would have to deal with actual market forces. For most of what they build, the number needed is exactly 0 (as you point out, we have manufacturing facilities that can be very quickly converted to build military hardware should the need arise). The entire purpose is for them to make money building things which specifically are NOT used by the public. Occasionally we start wars to justify this spending and construction, as opposed to needing these things because we're in wars.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. No. We no longer have facilities that can quickly be converted.
They're all gone.
They have been packed up and shipped to China.
Only the crumbling shells remain.

More importantly, we no longer have the the ability to build the machines that build the machines.
The Tool & Die Industry in the US no longer exists on a scale that would do us any good.
We would have to rebuild the Tool & Die Industry in order to make the machines that make the machines,
before we could begin to convert the production facilities here in the USA.

In 1940, it was fairly simple to re-task those production lines.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. It wouldn't be as simple now, that's for sure.
However, there still are plenty of automobile plants in the US. While the US isn't doing the tooling anymore, the machinery and skill are around to.... for the time being - not in a generation. I have a friend who was in tool & die, thinking that was one job that would never go overseas - he was wrong, of course, and now works as a small engine mechanic for much less money.

Regardless, your argument only expands upon my general point.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. That would be correct! N/T
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. We have only ourselves to blame for this. While other countries were fixing their
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 10:00 AM by Sarah Ibarruri
countries and putting money into them, we handed the keys to Ronald Reagan and the Repukes, they allowed corporations and banks to steal, cheat, and redistribute our wealth to the top, rip off educational institutions, dismantle social programs, destroy unions, give away our money to the military-industrial complex and corporations, do away with pensions and replace them with bullshit 401Ks, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. And now here we are, no jobs, a crumbling infrastructure, poverty growing, seniors suffering, students without jobs, one mess of a country, and hocked to the gills to China.

What's really one sorry-ass thing is that even Democrats got on board with Ronald Shithead Reagan. Very sad.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. But ain't we the best country in the world! We're #1 in everything at the bottom of the list! Except
for wealth disparity, kill power and Greed, there we're tops. Very very sad. The money, corruption and bribes need to come out of gov., but how that is going to happen is still unknown to me. I think we're in a whirlpool right to the bottom.


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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Oh yeah! This country is simply rocking since the Repugnican Reaganist trend took over! nt
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Yep, best times of our lives! Ain't it great! Memories, memories ... Trickle down
has brought such prosperity to all Americans.

And we can thank the great Ronald Reagan.

:puke: :puke: :puke:

I often wonder where we'll be in another decade of this ...
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Every time I think of Ronald Reagan, it makes me sick. nt
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I had someone tell me recently what this country needs is another Ronald Reagan. I didn't
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 11:35 AM by RKP5637
even respond. The level of propaganda and informational gap is so huge ... and the Ronald Reagan worshiping is really akin to a cult IMO. These peoples minds are cast in cement.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. I sincerely believe that Repukes are mentally ill people who function outwardly
but inside they're one f mess of psychoses.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. It's the party that has allowed them to all unite, I've thought similar
many many times. ... functioning psychotics.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Functioning psychotics, yep. nt
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
49. hmm...
If you haven't already, you might want to read Richard Hofstadter on conservatism in the US (The Paranoid Style in American Politics and Other Essays, for example).

Whether motivated by insanity or fear, conservatives seem hell-bent on vilifying anyone who does not FULLY embrace their POV.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. That was probably my teapublican neighbor. He will tell you that reagan was our greatest prez
:silly:
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
52. Yesterday, I was behind an SUV driven by an Army guy
who appeared to be a poster guy for steroids. His bumper sticker read: "Liberalism is a mental disorder." I wanted to ask him if sociopathy was a preferable state. I figured that he probably would not have understood the question and might have even pulled a gun to "protect himself" from this retired Union carpenter. The military sure can brainwash recruits. I have noticed that usually after a decade or so of seeing how the military operates, these soldiers usually acquire the aforementioned "mental disorder."

I refer to myself as a progressive, not a liberal. To him, I assume there is no difference. The military is one of the highest paying careers for H.S. graduates. They often are paid much better than college grads. I wonder if they realize that the military is the largest Socialist program in America? I like Socialism too, but an armed force trained to kill indiscriminately would not top my list of priorities. On second thought, they are more Communistic than Socialist.

Many of my friends are veterans or active-duty. If most Americans were familiar with the theft and corruption within the military, they would not be too happy. Now that most of their services are now privatized, it is MUCH worse.

Personally, I prefer the draft, without wealthy deferments. The history of deferments for the wealthy in America is disgraceful. Back on topic:

Use our money for our country, we are quickly becoming a third world nation. I think we are already at 2nd world status.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Hey now, Obama says we are the ENVY OF THE WORLD!
:silly: The World must envy our kill power. :evilgrin:
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Yep, we've become the "hit men" of the world. n/t
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. No, the world's wealthy
envy our wealth distribution. If a civilized country had the wealth disparity we do, there would be hell to pay.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. We have conservatives who vote and liberals who don't vote to blame
for all of this. The wealthy didn't just hold wages down and strip mine working people. They also strip mined the government, starving our ability to keep up with the rest of the world. We're now a poor country where some of the richest people in the world live. Our rich people are the richest out there but don't kid yourselves, we've become a very poor country in the process.

There is no way to rebuild our manufacturing until and unless we rebuild our infrastructure and there is no way to do that without taxing all the obscene wealth away from the men who stole it.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. So well said.

"The wealthy didn't just hold wages down and strip mine working people. They also strip mined the government, starving our ability to keep up with the rest of the world. We're now a poor country where some of the richest people in the world live. Our rich people are the richest out there but don't kid yourselves, we've become a very poor country in the process.

There is no way to rebuild our manufacturing until and unless we rebuild our infrastructure and there is no way to do that without taxing all the obscene wealth away from the men who stole it."

You've summed it all up in so very few words, and so accurately.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. +1
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. The Strip Mining of America's Working Class...
...has been going on for over 30 years.
During that time The Democrats have held the White House and Majorities in the House & Senate
for several long intervals.
The Class War has continued regardless of the Party in Power, and even accelerated under the control of the Democratic Party.

Find someone else to blame.

Obama's Army, Jan. 21, 2009

"Oh, What could have been."





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Indeed. Indeed. And indeed again. n/t
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. That's the truth! nt
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. "The Class War has continued regardless of the Party in Power"
yep, the beatings will continue until morale improves.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. +1000 +++ n/t
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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. I blame the national Democratic leadership!
Why blame the reptilian Republicans? They are going to keep doing what they do regardless. But as I type this Democrats in the White House and the Super Committee are involved in rear-guard negotiations to dismantle the New Deal. They are pathetic and immoral. I do not have a major party ballot choice to vote for my own economic or environmental interest. I live in Kansas, so I am acutely aware of the book "What's the matter with Kansas?" But that book is outdated. A relevant sequel would be entitled "What's the matter with America?"
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Agreed. Blaming the voters is a cop out and a waste of time.
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 03:30 PM by bvar22
It is the Primary Job of "LEADERSHIP" to motivate the troops.
If The Voters don't Turn Out,
it is a Failure of leadership and nothing else.

Blaming the Voters DOES allow the Party Leadership to avoid accepting responsibility,
but absolutely closes the door on Fixing the Problem.
Blaming The Voters ensures continuing FAILURE.
You CAN'T Fix the Voters,
but you CAN address shortcomings of leadership,
IF, and ONLY if, they are willing to accept responsibility for their failure.

The Generals are responsible for Failure on the Battlefield, not The Troops.
The same is true for Politics.

The Troops did their part in 2006 and 2008.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Admiral Loinpresser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. I thought the activism for Obama was pretty good.
It just turned out to be a bad bet. But public lethargy has been a major political problem for decades, I agree. I think the people are doing a much better effort of addressing the problems than the Dem Party. OWS is the best thing happening and I hope it starts mobilizing people politically. That already seems to be happening.

But I don't see the leadership of the Dems as anything but blameworthy and unacceptable.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
54. +100000 nt
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. conservatives outnumber liberals more than 2 to 1.
and liberals turn out in higher percentages than conservatives do. So you fail on two fronts.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Wrong, Slick
because when questions are asked on individual policies, most people answer on the liberal side of the equation even if they self identify as conservative.

You have made the same mistake they have, confusing a fashion statement with actual issue stances.
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. You're talking about the power of relentless sloganeering, Warpy..
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 04:29 PM by Demoiselle
We've had a vast right wing conspiracy (Hilary was absolutely right) pouring money into the spreading of simple-minded lies (mostly memorable and meaningless phrases) for over thirty years now. It certainly doesn't help that our fearless Fourth Estate feels no obligation to present any facts to us in depth. And, of course, when we cut the feet out from under our teachers and educational process, we can't hope for a lot of well disciplined logic.
And then there's the Democratic party. Why do my beloved Dems spend all their energy apologizing for their humanity?
I still call myself a Liberal, by the way. I mean no offense to Progressives, but I'll be damned if I'll be driven away from the best description I can come up with for my politics just because a passel of thugs tried to turn it into a dirty word.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Well put!
:thumbsup:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
38. Liberals did vote, they drove out the Republicans
in 2008 with a huge mandate from the American people to end the policies the country had concluded were responsible for the mess it was in. But nothing changes, we are involved in more wars now than when Bush was president eg, wasting billions of dollars killing people every day.

It's the SYSTEM that has to go. As long as the system remains, politicians will do as they are told by those who fund their campaigns, from both parties.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Unfortunately, too many didn't think 2010 was unimportant
or were so demoralized by Obama's centrism that they didn't bother and the teabag House is what we've got thanks to them.

I don't think they're going to make the same mistake next November.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
46. taxing them to what end?
We'd be fine if we actually distributed the already collected tax dollars equitably. I'm not defending the US's absurdly low tax rates for the wealthy, but I do think focusing on that misses the point. We don't even have politicians pushing for things like single-payer healthcare, substantial public transportation, etc. Sure, we could collect more taxes, but it doesn't help if we just use the money to start more wars of aggression.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
48. +1,000
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. Well put.
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onecent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
51. Wow Sarah...this is WELL SAID. Often I want something
to quote when someone starts "praising Reagan". I hope you don't mind if i use this for future debates...
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Daphnie Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. re
Come to think about it, it is kinda embarrassing...
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Ship of Fools Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Even more tragic is the ad that was (is still?) on MSNBC ...
Shows a moving super-train, and the final blurb is: "China is evolving. Invest in China."
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sammytko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. yea, and that super train was involved in a horrible accidents weeks after it went on-line
Witnesses say they didn't even try to look for survivors. They brought in heavy equipment to cover everything up, even people trapped in the wreckage.
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Ship of Fools Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. wow -- Heard the story, didn't know the connection. Thanks.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Yet Japan has opereated its high-speed rail network since 1964 without
a single passenger fatality, so high-speed rail is not necessarily dangerous. (The most recent fatal accident that made world headlines was with a conventional commuter train.)
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. The little engine that might.
It is embarrassing.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. I heard an interview once where the interviewee was commenting
on the difference between mass transit in Europe and in the US (he had traveled from Holland to New York, I think).

He said it was like going from the Jetsons to the Flintstones.
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cvoogt Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. absolutely.
I do that trip sometimes. Night and day. Acela is nice, but not nearly enough. It is too much a patchwork of rail rather than a unified whole.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. American Exceptionalism
that last train is the best one, because it's the American one. It's the one closest to the 1950's, which were fantastic, and closest to the Founding Fathers :patriot: and also closest to Biblical times.
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