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When Will OWS Renounce Those Who Employ Black Bloc Tactics?

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VeniceBeat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 01:59 PM
Original message
When Will OWS Renounce Those Who Employ Black Bloc Tactics?
I haven't posted anything here since the days of nothingshocksmeanymore but the tactics employed by the Black Bloc threaten to undermine OWS and I am concerned.

I am unaware of any statement from OWS Oakland, NY or any other city action which denounces Black Bloc's penchant for property destruction and other violence and calls for the end of all such tactics.

What can be done to reign in those who choose to employ Black Bloc tactics?

If some solution is not found, OWS is in danger of giving the upper hand to Drudge and Breitbart and the rest of the Mighty Wurlitzer.

Acts of violence are not anything I, as an OWS supporter, would ever advocate or condone. Black Bloc has been tainting otherwise peaceful protests for years. I understand their frustration but I think their tactics are counterproductive.

OWS must publicly renounce, diffuse and prevent incidents such as what happened in Oakland at Whole Foods from happening again.

Peace,

VB

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. They have
They are cleaning up after them and they tried to stop them

Better question when will we see a stop on agent provocateours.
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VeniceBeat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I Have Heard That
Hopefully those efforts will be documented in the major media.

But is any effort being made to reign in Black Bloc tactics so these sorts of incidents do not reoccur?

I've seen videos that show OWS agents provocateurs participating in demonstrations and then later dressed in riot gear and I know that is a problem but has any "official" statement been issued renouncing such tactics that are encouraged by such provacateurs?

I can't find anything in the google news feed that indicates that has taken place.

I understand the romantic appeal of the Black Bloc but their actions are bogus.

Am I naive to think those tactics can be muzzled?

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Naive
Unless they are met with actual force.

These people had weapons, as in hammers...

So in the heat of momemt how are you going to deal with it? Per twitter feed vets formed up in tactical formation and drove them out...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Late to the party --
Edited on Thu Nov-03-11 02:04 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
The tactics have been renounced, and Occupy Oakland and NYC in particular are actively working to keep BB out of OWS activities. Occupy SF stressses at every action that we are to engage in non-violent civil disobedience.
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. The weakness of a leaderless revolution...
...is there's no "go to" voice for the media to get OWS or OO's response to anarchist activity. I'm aware there's a plan for a speaker's group now, but it's been six weeks.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Wrong, since most people know they have renounced
violence, the MSM is irrelevant. Otoh, if that's where you are getting your news, then it's understandable that you would not be aware of the news. The MSM has made themselves irrelevant.

You should go to the sources, OWS has its own media and the foreign press does a good job of covering the news. Eg, I never watch the Corporate Media because I know they are in collusion with those who want to discredit the movement.

The STRENGTH of the movement is that it is leaderless. If they had not chosen this tactic and had caved in to the obvious push for them to name a leader, the movement would be over by now. The leader, no matter who, would have been smeared, discredited and the movement would have lost its focus.

I have seen so many incredible people speaking for the movement demonstrating the brilliance of not allowing those whose interests are to destroy this movement to influence them.

My suggestion is that people turn off the MSM and go to the actual sources for information, not just on this, but on news in general. The fact that you are unaware of the position of OWS on violence, seems to indicate that you depend on the MSM. If I'm wrong, then my apologies.

Despite the efforts of the Corporate media to undermine the voices of the American people however, they appear to be losing their influence. Over 57% of Americans support the movement and over 80% know about it and agree they have the right to demonstrate.

As Hillary Clinton said a few months ago 'we are losing control of the message'. The news is not supposed to be a 'message'. It's supposed to reporting on facts. Which is why people have turned to other sources for actual news.
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VeniceBeat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. The Problem is That the MSM Shapes LIV* Opinion
*Low Information Voter

___________________

As valid and useful as IndyMedia and other sources are, what gets played on the Big MSM Megaphone gets heard.

There's already progress. Since I first posted this, my Google News page now shows the headlines I was hoping to see indicating that OSW has renounced the violence and is participating in cleanup. I'm sure Breitbart and his ilk are formulating a response to that fact at this very moment.

Any more incidents of violence and property destruction will just further cement the bias in the minds of the so-called 53%ers who were, if not for the Koch fueled propaganda about MuslimKenyanSoshalsim, likely and could still be in solidarity with OSW.

It's a propaganda war, too.

The TeaBaggers on my local Topix page were gleeful about the violence in Oakland and think it will help to make Obama a one-termer. I hope that doesn't happen. Though his faults are many, the alternative is worse.

I was in LA for the 2000 Democratic Convention to watch Rage Against the Machine play and the same crowd of Blac Blockers ruined it for a lot of people. They're actions certainly weren't in the spirit of Granny D.

Viscerally one might want to act out in this way and I understand the impulse, believe me, but practically and politically, well...

Anyway--

I like the Black Bloc = a**holes sign idea. LOL.

Maybe we could think of another word that's equally as descriptive as a**hole, but--y'know-- a word that could be printed in the family newspaper as it were. There could be a whole series:

Black Bloc =

Poopyheads?

Jerks?

Numbskulls?

I hope those who participate in OSW do take the initiative and challenge those who threaten to perform acts of violence. Physically pulling off their masks seems extreme but I guess it could be done with a wink and a smile. :)

Solidarity



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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't think we have to worry about the Corporate Media too
much anymore. They no longer are the only ones with a megaphone.

Eg, when this movement began, they ignored it. That was a tactic hoping that without their coverage, the movement would die after the first weekend.

Instead, it grew like wildfire and it was generally concluded that the movement, which anticipated negative coverage from the MSM, was far better off without them.

Seeing how irrelevant they have become, they moved to the next phase, undermining it. That didn't work either as polls show that 57% of the population agree with the movement and over 80% support their right to protest and had heard about it.

We have so many other news sources now that weren't available during the Bush years or the last couple of elections.

What is on google doesn't matter if it is coming from the MSM. A majority of people now do not trust them.

This movement could not have grown the way it has just a couple of years ago when the MSM was all-powerful. Times have changed, they are part of the problem and recognized as such, especially by young people who get their news online mostly as polls show.

As for the tea-baggers, those are the fringes, becoming more and more isolated, as many of their former members, no longer support that movement acknowledging it was taken over by Corporate interests.

But you are right, the movement has to keep hitting back and so far they've been doing a great job of that.

However, no one thought this would be easy. The more successful the movement is, the more of a threat it will be to the Corporate Powers who run this government and the media. So, the fight is only beginning and people do have to be alert and never expect positive coverage from the Propaganda Arm of Corporate America. It won't happen. We have to use all the other tools we have, and there are many :-)
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. How's this for a sign, whether it's true or not:
"Black Bloc = POLICE"

Even if the specific individuals are just asshats and not cops, it would surely discredit them.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. Good idea. And it's probably true.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
88. Lying is never a good idea
especially to lying just to discredit people you have a tactical disagreement with, and motivate your suggestion of lying by the fear of corporate media lying.

How about just sticking to the truth?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. The proponents of the Revolutionary War rejected it's equivalent version of the MSM
and created educational councils (I can't remember the exact name) to bring the citizenry to the cause. The 1930s relied on mimeographed propaganda in a half dozen languages.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
54. Committed of correspondence
:hi:

They were exactly that, met at ale houses and the members who could read....
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louslobbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. +1 Sabrina n/t
Lou
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Juneboarder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Per twitter...
Occupy Oakland was meeting at 10:30am this morning, 11/3/11, to discuss these Black Blocs and what to do with them.
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alc Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. 99%
The black bloc is part of the 99%. As are the homeless even if they show up for free food or were sent by police. I don't know the solution, but need to be careful separating from different groups.
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a simple pattern Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Bullshit.
They're cops, always have been.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. The original Black bloc was not cops.
Are you guys talking about excluding any self-described anarchist from Occupy? Anyone wearing a mask? Hmm.

Not sure about these agents provocateurs although I will say it's counterproductive to vandalize stuff like Whole Foods and it doesn't seem like something police in disguise would be willing to do, either.

Most countries have a long history of the populace rioting when they are discontented. In the US, people react with visceral hatred to, say, turning over newspaper boxes but look away or say "boys will be boys" when football fans do the same. That's why such tactics are ineffective.

America is too well off to support or countenance actual widespread unrest of the sort that carries the potential for violence. Unfortunately, it takes that level of unrest (preferably minus the violence) for any change to occur. MLK himself played good cop bad cop with the Black Power movement to achieve civil rights gains. Remember "the fire next time"? That sort of rhetoric was the only reason some civil rights laws were passed... because politicians ultimately aren't afraid of peaceful protesters.

As a pacifist, albeit one who cares more about people than things, I don't know an easy solution.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Back in the 1980s you are correct
Since it 's become a tactic. Some are anarchist, some are cops... The question is the mix.
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themadstork Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #17
60. Nice post, I really wonder about a lot of the same things too
And sadly I have no easy answers
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. They're assholes is what they are. They want to fuck with anyone--and they don't
care what "percent" you belong to--they're jerks for the sake of being jerks.
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louslobbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. Can you prove that statement? You can identify black block people with their faces covered as being
regular average citizens versus provocateurs or operatives from the other side? Until there is definitive identification as to who these people are, if they're instigating violence, they are not operating in a manner that is helpful to the OWS movement. Instigating violence provides a payoff for the other side, not for the 99% movement. If you know who these black bloc people are, please share that with the rest of us.
Thanks,
Lou
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. Their tactics ultimately support the ruling class
Edited on Thu Nov-03-11 10:35 PM by Cal Carpenter
or 'the 1%'. They discredit the movement, they cause dissension, confusion, distraction and distrust.

I don't know if you followed what happened in Greece a couple weeks ago near the end of day 1 of the incredibly successful 48 hour strike but black bloc fuckheads almost ruined the whole thing.

They could use those tactics some other time, some other place, and own the results of it but instead they do it under the cover of thousands of peaceful protestors who are actually advancing the movement forward.

Some of them are, no doubt, cops, and the rest of them may as well be on the payroll.

Fuck them. Discredit them. Denounce them.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
73. Are you defending the stalinist thugs
he denied other demonstrators access to Syntagma square - denied freedom of movement in public space - armed with helmets and sticks and beating people and taking them captives and giving them to cops?

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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. LOL
And then they lie.

And some people believe them.

What a shame.

Tens of thousands of trade unionists are 'stalinist thugs'? I don't think so.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. KKE
is usually defined as 'stalinist' party. Members of KKE's union PAM and youth organization, armed with sticks - violent aka 'thugs' - denied access to other Greeks to Syntagma square, first to members of the pacifist 'We Won't Pay' movement. After that fighting broke between kukulofori and stalinist thugs.

KKE and its unions refuse to cooperate with all other Greek dissenters. Their idea of cooperation is that everybody else should join their stalinist party and follow the orders of their party leadership.

Get the facts cleared before calling others liars.


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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #78
95. If you think a successful movement
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 11:18 AM by Cal Carpenter
doesn't need discipline and organization, then I certainly won't be the one to change your mind.

PAME (with the KKE) is highly organized, is doing essential planning and creating cooperation between most dissenting groups and trade unions. They brought tens of thousands to the streets and shut down 90%+ of the country. Did the few hundred anarchists accomplish that? I don't think so.

Your characterization of what happened at Syntagma Square is incorrect. The violent thugs were the black-hooded anarchists (or indignados or whatever you want to call them) who tried to force their way into an area filled with thousands of demonstrators who did NOT support those tactics. The KKE and PAME were prepared for that because it was so predictable.

I support PAME and the KKE and the trade unions, not the undercover cops/disgruntled youth who end up supporting the rulers (whether that is their 'intention' or not). The tactics of the anarchists accomplished nothing but violence and confusion. Whether or not they directly work for the cops (which I'm sure many do, if not all) the results of their actions certainly support the goals of the cops.

We need organization, discipline, shared goals, planning, and a true revolutionary movement.

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. You make me afraid
with your disciplined organized violence. You are able to depersonalize me and put "organization" before my well being. You don't want to get rid of rulers, just replace them with your rule.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. I'm not going to do a point-by-point
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 06:49 PM by Cal Carpenter
on how incorrectly you characterize what happened that day (let alone how you characterize me, although I am not arrogant enough to take that personally). It's not worth my time.

I do NOT condone violence and that is why I do NOT condone the pro-ruling class tactics used by black bloc activists.

I am going to leave it at that, this post is not for your benefit because you clearly have blinders on about what happened that day, and what happens whenever black bloc tactics are used.

eta: the last word is yours, I am done with this exchange. If anyone sincerely does want a point-by-point display of what happened in the square that day with pics and videos to back it up, please PM me.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. I've seen the vids
On anarchist forums I've been telling my - very critical - opinion of how kukulofori acted that day, also beforehand, passing leaflets of instigating violence. History of "commies" betraying and killing anarchists etc. goes deep and there is need for lot of healing, and KKE is certainly not helping.

Being critical of the one side does not mean the other side was right. I am both sides and I speak from personal experience when I say that centralism and hierarchical power structures just don't work, they are the source of evil and division. But we need our time to learn that lesson, each of us.

That said, what happened that day on Syntagma square was sad and terrifying for all of us, and to start healing, we need to stop taking sides with one violent side against other violent side. I know both sides from personal experience, but most of all I'm anti-capitalist, for our children, and I don't like us to get divided by any divisive ideology. I like food. I'm both translator and gardener.

Please don't take sides with the other side using violent tactics. If you want peace, be a peacemaker. And if you are not that principled Gandhian, let's not fight each other. Let's throw yoghurt over politicians and cops, in that case, together.

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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. There's a good chance those guys were cops trying to
discredit the movement. It's been done before.
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
107. Yes it has.
One mustn't discount the possible infiltration of white supremacists and other rightist extremists, either.
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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Agent Provocateurs
Edited on Thu Nov-03-11 02:29 PM by Aerows
If you fall for it, and actually believe those are OWS protesters instead of infiltrators, they win.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=w...

Disguised just like them. Age old tactics.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Some Occupiers are holding GA sessions to address the Black Bloc problem
and fight it because it is counter to what OWS stands for.

Guess you missed that part down the page. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

But carry on with the RW meme that OWS isn't doing anything about them.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Knock them upside the head, and see if you get charged with assaulting a cop
;)
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Ha!
Good one. ;)
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. lol
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. You expect to hear something on the MSM?
:rofl:
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. When Will OWS Renounce Those Who Employ Black Bloc Tactics?
Maybe when our reps denounce the police violence?

Concerned about the OWS, why not concern about our leaders?

I think you will have to wait a while. It's been a week and I think only 3 Dems have condemned the Scott Olsen assault.


Lots of concern all of a sudden.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. We are up to three?
:hi:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Sadly, it's the same three that were posted at the start of that thread.
Most depressing thread I've read all year (the Scott Olsen thanks politicians for support thread.) :evilfrown:
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Lots of concern about anarchists all of a sudden.
Hell, I'm apparently too moderate a left-libertarian to be an anarchist.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. It's because of the shit they tried to pull at Whole Foods in Oakland....
---and the less-publicized shit they DID pull in Boston (vandalism and spray-painting).
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Alas they're not part of OWS.
They are a tool I will let you connect those dots.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. They need to be "cut out of the herd." They're the mad cows that will
infect the perception of the rest.

It doesn't matter that they are not part of the group, they are perceived as such by those who are getting their material from the six o'clock news--which is why there needs to be aggressive (peacefully aggressive, but aggressive) confronting, filming, identifying, singling out, chastising, and isolating these guys--it needs to be clear to EVERYONE -- police, public, and protesters--that these guys do NOT belong. It is important to also reach the people who do not pay attention.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Then get your ass out there and stop them while they are wielding hammers
and baseball bats.

GOOD LUCK!

Screw turning OWS into a police department.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Point them out to the cops, then, if they're wielding hammers and bats.
They'd have a hard time swinging a hammer if they're surrounded on all sides. If you have critical mass, you can isolate them one by one.

Look--you can put up with this, play the "powerless to stop them" game, and take the blame for their behavior, or police yourselves. Don't cry when your cause is mixed up with theirs, if you don't actively do anything to stop them and make sure that EVERYONE knows it. I'm not talking about crabbing about them on leftish message boards, I'm talking about the national media.

Don't ask me to fly across the country to Oakland to sort out your difficulties. If you're there, you need to do your own housekeeping--or be blamed for the behavior of your "unwelcome guests."

This is a peril in a "leaderless" movement. No one is there to say "Toss these fuckers out on their asses." You need to do your groupthink thing and make it happen, though, or understand that these guys can visit unwanted consequences on your efforts.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. The cops do nothing to pretect to peaceful from the perpetrators. Nothing.
Your advice is shit. I've personally begged cops to wade in while Black Bloc folks are breaking windows in front of our very eyes and they stand there and do nothing. Trying to physically detain them means opening oneself to being beaten by the very weapons that they are using to break windows.

It is people like you who mix up OUR cause (apparently not YOUR cause) by insisting we take responsibility for them. I reject that responsibility. They are not part of OWS. They don't camp. They are not a group. They don't participate in GA discussions. Nobody can toss the fuckers out on their asses because they are not part of anything. WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Now, you're changing your story (you can do something, apparently) and you're calling me
"mother fucker?"

How charming.

You, yourself, rejected responsibility--try reading what you write before you start getting shirty with me.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. I take responsibilty for OWS. I refuse to put on the hair shirt and take responsibility for
actions outside of OWS. That is the responsibility I am talking about. And the reason I don't whine about it is because I reject it. You and your ilk keep trying to throw the mantle of the Black Bloc on us. We reject it. You want us to flagellate ourselves. You want us on our knees. (We are not like them, Massa. Honest.) Just like the right wing expects anyone in the Democratic leadership to subjugate themselves over any transgression of any and all liberals.

Fuck that. The Black Bloc is not our problem. It is yours. It is vandalizing your institutions, not ours. You deal with them.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. You're deliberately misstating my POV and I will not tolerate it.
This is an absolute load of horseshit:

You and your ilk keep trying to throw the mantle of the Black Bloc on us. We reject it. You want us to flagellate ourselves. You want us on our knees. (We are not like them, Massa. Honest.) Just like the right wing expects anyone in the Democratic leadership to subjugate themselves over any transgression of any and all liberals.


The black bloc IS "your problem" (and by that I mean the problem of anyone--myself included--who hopes for success and peaceful protest at the OWS sites) and your denial of the obvious is not the majority POV.

Which is a good thing, because if you were calling the shots, this whole thing would be over before it has a chance to take off.

This IS being discussed by OWS folks--despite your assertions to the contrary.

Here, read and educate yourself, and stop behaving like a child with your "massa" hate speech:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/fix-this-problem-or-the-m... /
http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/11/03/black-bloc-radica... /
http://www.salon.com/2011/11/03/vandals_hijack_occupy_o...
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. That's what you've got? Comments and blogs (similar to post here) is your evidence?
Do you think I'm an idiot? Not one of those links point to any discussions within OWS General Assemblies. Not one. Again. Black Bloc tactics have been repeatedly rejected by OWS. Repeatedly. Black Bloc is not part of OWS. And thus, OWS DOES NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. That you want us to police them and take responsibility for their actions means that you want to enfold them into the movement. You want to make them ours to control.

They are not ours. They do not belong to us. We are not their target. If you actually supported OWS, you'd cease burdening us with them.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Your POV isn't the only one, so get over it. You aren't the spokesmodel.
This IS a topic under discussion, like it or not. That's the point I was making with the links. You're pretending it isn't an issue--but it is. And it will get worse unless and until it is managed. Over time, unless they are shunned and ejected from the group, the group will suffer for their actions. Don't believe me if you don't want to -- time will tell if no action is taken by the GAs.

More links within this one: http://occupylosangeles.org/?q=node/1516

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/133119143.html
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. OWS has bigger fish to fry than a few window breakers.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
69. Well, no, that's not true--check out the links I provided. OWS is addressing this problem, not
ignoring it --not by a long shot.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. LOADS of "concern"...
;)
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. They have. Just because you don't see it on your MSM
doesn't mean it didn't happen.

OWS is a non-violent movement. Anyone engaging in violence is not part of the movement. It's simple really, if the MSM wasn't trying to undermine it.



Black Bloc, or whoever they are, are not part of this movement.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. What can be done to rein them in? Easy.
Surround them, pull of their hoodies and scarves, photograph them, put the video up on YOUTUBE shaming them, shout at them, demand they identify themselves, and then tell them to LEAVE, that they are UNWELCOME.

A peaceful protest does not need that kind of shit--those people need to be frightened by larger numbers of determined and peaceful people, not allowed to incite and bully without consequences.

Also, if they pull shit, like spray paint, vandalize, steal, etc.--report 'em. Fill out a police report and identify them. Get the divisive bastards off the street and away from the movement.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. And maybe a few signs that say "black bloc = assholes" :)
But seriously, I like your ideas.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
57. The signs could say; "Black bloc = cops or assholes or both"
Or alternatively, "Black bloc = cops - If they aren't on the payroll, they might as well be."

I got the second idea from reading some of the posts upthread.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
81. If black bloc = cops
then why are you supporting MADem's idea of capturing them and turning them to cops?

Maybe YOU are a cop infiltrator trying to divide anti-capitalistic movement and turn them to fighting against each other? How can I know you ain't a cop infiltrator?

See to what kind of paranoia your approach leads!?


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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
80. Why do you like the idea
of physical violence against other people?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Pulling off their masks, scarves, and hoods is assault. And they have weapons.
The OWS protestors do not.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. Get up close and personal. Are they the greater numbers, or are the OWS protesters in the majority?
If you have twenty troublemakers and a thousand good guys, you put a hundred people on each one of those hoodie wearing shitheads. You surround and swarm them. You get in their faces, up close, close enough to restrict their movement simply by being crowded--think a Japanese commuter train. A dozen people in close quarters can surely get a hammer away from a fucking punk, then take off his mask, photograph him, and frog march his ass to the police. Give the police the hammer, and accuse the guy of making trouble and inciting vandalism/rioting.

Do that a few times, and making trouble will be less exciting for these jerks.

OR.....

Sit on your asses, do nothing, and take the blame for their bad conduct.

The choice is yours.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
82. You are exhorting physical violence
and cooperation with cops. How can we know you are not a police infiltrator?
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
48. You really don't get the movement . Stick to party politics.
...and defending women who chop off men's penises
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. I'd say you don't get living in the real world.
You're also extremely childish in your commentary.

If regular people from all walks of life don't "get" the movement, the movement is going to die a sad, marginalized death and be regarded as nothing more than a bunch of greasy campers griping for griping's sake.

The "movement" depends on the ninety nine percent--people like me, people like those clerks working at the DMV, at checkout counters at Walmart and Supermarkets, nurses, teachers, plumbers, electricians. Regular people--not self-important blowhards who pretend to have a super-secret "Joe Cool" understanding of "the movement." It's NOT an exclusive club--someone needs to explain that to you, I think.

"The movement" is not helped by elitist and self-important scolds who toss immature insults on message boards and behave as if they are "cool" and ahead of the curve in terms of their understanding. It's not rocket science, you know--or maybe you don't. You're not the first bunch to play this game.

In fact, people who purport to speak for "the movement" on message boards, like they are an authority with a leadership role, are suspect in the extreme, particularly since this is still a leaderless endeavor. Anyone who is truly interested in helping "the movement" succeed would not snark and insult members of the 99 percent on a left-leaning message board, unless their goal was divisiveness.

You are presenting yourself very poorly with your comments. I suggest that you should be a bit embarrassed.

You need to check your perspective--and grow the heck up.

Don't play with scissors, either.
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. I cannot begin to know who the hell you are talking to...but it ain't me
I suggest therapy.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. It is you--and you might take your own snarky advice. It would do you good. NT
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. bravo!!!
:eyes:
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
83. The movement does not depend from you
Reveal your true identity, announce yourself to the cops for exhorting physical violence, and just go away.

"people who purport to speak for "the movement" on message boards, like they are an authority with a leadership role, are suspect in the extreme, particularly since this is still a leaderless endeavor. Anyone who is truly interested in helping "the movement" succeed would not snark and insult members of the 99 percent on a left-leaning message board, unless their goal was divisiveness."

That's how you are behaving.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
89. heh
:thumbsup:
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
79. Spoken like
a true enemy of the people. When you don't agree with the tactics of others you are exhorting physical violence against those you disagree with.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #79
90. enemy of the people?
crackin' me up.

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Taking sides with police
exhorting violence against other people. Whaddayacallit?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #79
105. Physical violence? what the person describes is nothing but an intervention.
Violence would be shooting the person in the face with a tear gas canister. Or tossing bricks at the head. This person merely said to surround them and de-mask the people in question if they're found to be committing acts of vandalism.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Dear Selatius
Dom't touch me. Please.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. ???
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone who practices violent and destructive actions is a very big
threat to occupy. If I am correct that was also true when MLK was marching. Toward the end of his life several factions split off from his peaceful branch and started using violent measures which immediately were blamed on him. Since they were marching in the same protest as he was it was hard to disclaim them.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
30. I hereby publicly renounce the tactics of the Blackwater Bloc as spokesperson for OWS.
I don't need consensus for that.

It's how everyone in the movement feels, and the reason why no one has said it is because we all thought it was obvious that we did not condone the actions of the Blackwater Bloc.

As for what can be done to stop them, maybe law enforcement officials could find out who they are and who hired them to do their nasty deeds.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
34. When did you stop beating your wife?
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Reminds me of an old saw about that arch-villain LBJ. As the story
Edited on Thu Nov-03-11 09:31 PM by coalition_unwilling
has it,

When Lyndon Johnson ran for Congress, legend says, he wanted to spread the rumor that his opponent was a pig-fucker. Johnson's campaign manager said, "Lyndon, you know he doesn't do that!" Johnson replied, "I know. I just want to make him deny it."

http://www.sfweekly.com/2002-04-03/news/now-that-s-amor... /

In a hurry, so can't source this from primary sources.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
39. I know that in OWS Toronto, demonstrators were taught to yell and point
to anyone wearing a black mask and to run away. Allowing other demonstrators to stop them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
76. LOL, you don't get it, do you? Provocateurs are either the police, or known to the police;

they are *protected* by the cops.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #40
84. So you support
police and want to turn all Anonymous - especially those wearing V masks - to police, regardless of what they are doing?

While I do not agree with certain Black Block tactics in this situation, those are minor disagreement, and what is notworthy is how smashing couple windonws and lighting a fire rubs out the cop-loving fascist out of the so called "pacifists" who exhort physical violence against fellow humans and giving them to police...

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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. They should renounce it until the movement is too large to lose support...
But property destruction is not violence, sorry.

Sometimes destroying a symbol can be powerful.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. It's violence when someone destroys YOUR property. No excuses for it.
It's more powerful to change minds than to behave like a two year old and break shit.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #53
87. It's violence
when you exhort violence against other people and turning them to cops to be violated by cops. No excuses, you are excused and free to go.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
49. Oh great, yet another anti-Black Bloc concern thread.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. This is a fast moving board. More than one thread is unsurprising. This IS a subject for concern.
It's why the different OWS groups are discussing it amongst themselves, and coming up with strategies to deal with it.

Pretending it isn't happening isn't going to make it go away.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #55
66. Give it up already.
Edited on Fri Nov-04-11 03:29 AM by girl gone mad
I'd love to see you channel just a small fraction of the concern you show over broken windows toward actual humans whose lives are being systematically smashed by the greedy criminals in Washington and on Wall Street.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. I do not know you and I suspect that's a good thing.
You certainly know nothing about me--and that's a good thing, too.

Away with you and your false assertions.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #70
86. We don't know you
so whose to tell you are not a police instigator?

My name is Sampo Vesterinen and I don't work for the police. Once in 2008 I have participated in Black Block march in solidarity of Greek brothers and sisters, and I'm also part of the occupy movement. I have nothing to hide and I'm not afraid.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
85. +1
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #66
91. you'd think that the op is running the banks or something like that
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 07:35 AM by bigtree
instead, they just appear to be a working person.

If this movement isn't about *folks like them (and me) I'd sure like to know who is supposed to benefit from the protest.

The whole 1%/99% rhetoric is completely ignored by folks who jump on working class Americans who have questions and concerns about the scope, behavior, and impact of the movement. And many of the responses to those with questions and opinions ARE rude and thoughtless. What a movement. I think many participants would be more than willing to whittle away at that 99% and come up with a lesser figure. If not, then dissenting opinions from the 99% they purport to represent should be respected -- not scorned and ridiculed. I can't believe how many folks are so willing to alienate so many potential supporters for straying from or expressing misgivings about a movement with such an ambiguous, nebulous gospel.

And they point to some manifesto somewhere that denounces violence and pretend that that's going to or is supposed to suffice. There needs to be visible and aggressive leadership saying those things if it's going to have any real world impact. The denial on that point from many participants and supporters here is stunning. The arrogance toward folks with questions is positively antithetical to the premise behind the movement. When did working folks not actively part of the OWS protests become the enemy?

*edit
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. Thanks
very refreshing to see a post taking the idea of 99% seriously. I've been developing that into 99,999...% Win-win games instead of competition, envy etc.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
74. Concern noted.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
92. In Greece PAME has it's own 'guard' formations.
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 07:34 AM by blindpig
Though their primary purpose is to protect PAME demonstrations from the police but on Oct 20 they had to protect the demonstrators from the 'black masks' who actually attacked the demonstrators with petrol bombs.

A people's movement must have discipline or it all falls apart.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. Then lets fall apart
I'm people, and I refuse to take sides with your kind of "discipline".

The kind of violence you are exhorting will get back to you if you don't stop.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. What?

Self-defense against assholes throwing petrol bombs and paving stones requires defending, how is this?
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
93. Black Bloc is typically agent provocateur (hired by police) -
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 07:42 AM by TBF
how in the world is OWS supposed to control what the police departments do?

We can't "reign them in" because we don't control them.

edited to add: pls. see Blindpig's post above about how protesters can deal with BB agents.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
96. FFFS!! Have any of you guys been to the Seattle protests, or to many protests,

period, within the last 10 years or so??

I'm just fucking INCREDULOUS that most people don't seem to get it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



:nuke:
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
99. Why should OWS or better yet,
HOW could OWS renounce anyone/anything? There is no structure or organization, no leader or spokesman, no published strategy or mission statement.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. It's we
but of course there is organization, and much disagreement about being organical parts of larger whole and or top and followers of pyramidic hierarchical organizations. This is very (dis)organised disagreement.
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