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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:02 PM
Original message
Could the shooting of the Iraq Veteran
be the Occupy Movement's Kent State?
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Uhhh no...
He's not dead... and they weren't real bullets.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No real bullets.
Just massive projectiles shot out of weapons with an intensity sufficient to kill someone. That's much better.
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Remember Me Donating Member (730 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. Yeah, and way different too.
:sarcasm:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. He happens to be in critical condition.
And from medical reports, if they are considering surgery, it probably means they need to remove skull fragments from inside his brain.

And whether the "non-lethal" means to do this to a returning vet, who was expresing his voice in our nation's supposed democracy, are metal bullets or rubber bullets or simply the canister that is used for tear gas, in the end, he faces a lifetime long recovery, regardless of the method of delivery.

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JohnnyBoots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Isn't tear gas a chemical weapon? nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Very technically yes and it is not to be used
In war time against other combatants. But for civilian control in civil disturbances it is preferable to actual bullets, no, not the rubber coated kind, actual full propellant rounds.

Yes paraphrasing a few international standards. Actually this is very much so an executive summary.
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's not my point
I'm talking about the effect of Kent State on public opinion - not the specific details of what happened.
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ChandlerJr Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. What do you perceive the public opinion of Kent State was?
As I recall, having lived through those times, it pretty much ended the era of the 60's protest and activism. Most said enough and went home and it led to a increase in RW "Law and Order" rhetoric.
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. "There was a significant national response to the shootings"
"Photographs of the dead and wounded at Kent State that were distributed in newspapers and periodicals worldwide amplified sentiment against the United States' invasion of Cambodia and the Vietnam War in general. In particular, the camera of Kent State photojournalism student John Filo captured a fourteen-year old runaway, Mary Ann Vecchio, screaming over the body of the dead student, Jeffrey Miller, who had been shot in the mouth. The photograph, which won a Pulitzer Prize, became the most enduring image of the events, and one of the most enduring images of the anti-Vietnam War movement."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. You recall QUITE incorrectly! KS led to MORE protests!
The shootings led to protests on college campuses throughout the United States, and a student strike, causing more than 450 campuses across the country to close with both violent and non-violent demonstrations.<8> A common sentiment was expressed by students at New York University with a banner hung out of a window which read "They Can't Kill Us All."<35> On May 8, eleven people were bayonetted at the University of New Mexico by the New Mexico National Guard in a confrontation with student protesters.<36> Also on May 8, an antiwar protest at New York's Federal Hall held at least partly in reaction to the Kent State killings was met with a counter-rally of pro-Nixon construction workers organized by Peter J. Brennan, later appointed U.S. Labor Secretary by President Nixon, resulting in the "Hard Hat Riot".

Just five days after the shootings, 100,000 people demonstrated in Washington, D.C., against the war and the killing of unarmed student protesters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#After...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was in college then. Still have my arm-bands.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. So far, I've seen 3 DU'ers have mentioned how it flipped on some heightened
Edited on Thu Oct-27-11 02:34 PM by truedelphi
Awareness related to people they knew, who are now wanting to go and stand with the Occupiers" crowd.

And my spouse and I are more aware of it too.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. It doesn't feel like it did after Kent State.
When Kent State happened there was a fluctuation in the force, as if millions of parent's heard the voices of their children cry out in pain. Adults all over America shuddered at the brutality of Kent State and imagined their children among the university students.

This was horrible indeed, but it sent no shockwave through the force.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I had that talk with my mom two months ago, no i am not kidding
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. Perhaps because we, as a nation, have not asked everyone to sacrifice for these wars.
"...there was a fluctuation in the force, as if millions of parent's heard the voices of their children cry out in pain. Adults all over America shuddered at the brutality of Kent State and imagined their children among the university students.

The brutality of Kent State, was the power elite's response to the ordinary citizen's horror of the tens of thousands of coffins of children returning from VietNam.

The force you speak of, came from everyone having some skin in the game.

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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Well, that's a little bit slippery
Edited on Thu Oct-27-11 04:24 PM by HereSince1628
About 40 million American were baby-boomers. About 20 million were the right age to serve, only men were drafted which biases the sex ratios of vets somewhat, and in the end 2.6 million American men and women served -in country- as they say and earned both Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Ribbons.

At the end of war, when I served, there were about 250 million people living in the US and its territories. Multiplying the number of persons who served by 2 (one father one mother per person) somewhat more than 5 million parents or in other words roughly 2.6 million families had members who served in the conflict. That's not a big percentage. It's a bit less than 2% because older and younger baby boom brothers were drafted or volunteered and had sisters who volunteered.

It is hardly the case that everyone had skin in the game. It is true is that before the birthday lottery, every 18 year old male and his family felt vulnerable. After the birthday lottery was put in place this tension was eased, but in truth across the history of the war MANY MORE families felt the threat of the draft and the uncertainties that it created in their son's lives than the number who actually ended up with 'skin in the game.'

I don't mean to diminish the importance of protest in ending the war. What I want to say is that it wasn't just direct threat that caused millions of young people and tens of thousands of older people to act against the war. It was the empathy and sense of injustice of scores of millions more people NOT directly at risk that took people to the streets and broke the back of that fucking war.

Similarly scores of millions of people have empathy for those harmed by the injustice of the banksters and corrupt government officials that OWS can tap into. The event that hits all those people as the one straw too many, like Kent State was, just hasn't happened yet.

If the OWS protests continue I have no doubt that someday in the not distant future that straw will be dropped on the backs of Americans. That day will change things (at least for a while).







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Aerows Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Because it's much better to be critically injured
Using another weapon? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't care WHAT was used if it was my family member that was put into the hospital for protesting peacefully.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. It was more gas to that fire actually
Notice reversal of policy and internal investigation...the latter is window dressing and I bet trying to avoid DOJ investigation.
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ChandlerJr Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. It was more like water on the ashes
show me a major protest or citizen action after Kent State. Viet Nam war ended 3 years later.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I get the feeling you pray that is the case
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ChandlerJr Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I get the feeling that you don't know your history as well
Edited on Thu Oct-27-11 02:34 PM by ChandlerJr
as you would have me believe. There was no "gas on the fire", the country did not explode in an out pouring of rage and violence. It all died with those 4 kids whether you or I like it or not.

And they is a big difference between praying for it to be so and having lived through the reality of the way it was.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I suspect you don't connect the other dot on purpose
Tell me oh wise one...what happened after mayday?

Have you ever heard of the Harlan County War? Those two other examples could also apply...and for all our sakes let's hope it remains peaceful, m'kay?
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ChandlerJr Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh please, The OP was asking about Kent state OccupyOakland
I couldn't care less what happened in 1848 or 1932 or the Roman empire for that matter. Kent State was the end of the 60's "revolution" not the gas pouring beginning.

I guess you had to have experience it in person to understand.

And I will not condescend to call you "Oh wise one".
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yup, but on purpose you miss the MAJOR dot as to why the student movement
Died off. No it wasn't kent. It was a MAJOR demand met. Tell me what MAJOR demand has been met so far? This is your free hint.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Oh and you should look up may day in 1882 or Harlan County War
This has far more paralels to THAT within us history.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. It may have ended 3 years later but Nixon had already begun the
process of 'Vietnamization' at the time of Kent State which itself was a protest against Nixon's attempt to expand the war into Cambodia.

I was a little boy when it happened (about 11 years old), so did not live through it personally as an adult, but from what I have read here and in histories of the counter culture, I think both you and nadin each have a piece of the truth.

Specifically, in the immediate aftermath of Kent State (and Jackson State), there were massive student strikes on more than 400 college campuses. In the longer term, I think folks realized that they could actually die if they protested and that seems to have had a chilling effect on the anti-war movement post 1971-2. However, those anti-war energies got channeled through McGovern's insurgency and Ellsburg's heroism in different directions.
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dtexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's having its effect, and that effect may really grow.
Now the OPD has the US Marine Corps upset.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. it's really not a fine line at all between life and death.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Depends on what one means. It's fine, in a one-way sense. It's wide, in the no-returning
Edited on Thu Oct-27-11 04:41 PM by WinkyDink
sense.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. IMHO it already is n/t
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SPedigrees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. I've wondered this myself and also hope it could be...
so this Marine's ordeal is not for nothing. The Kent State era was a time of unbiased television news reporting, before Clear Channel radio, so I'm not sure...
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Do not kid yourself. It was NOT a time of unbiased tv reporting
The news media was VERY responsive to the corporations who paid for the stations to operate.
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SPedigrees Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Bodies of the dead and dying made the evening news
every night and fed the huge backlash against the Vietnam war. Crosby, Stills etc's 'Four Dead in Ohio' got continual air play.

Media consolidation and right wing bias came later, about a decade ago, with buy outs and the dissolution of FDA regs.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. Here's one answer to your query - vigil to be held all across America
Edited on Thu Oct-27-11 04:51 PM by truedelphi
Tonight for the man now in critical condition.

Another DU'er has it posted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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