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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:42 AM
Original message
For those "concerned" about the OWS movement not having
a leader, a main spokesperson.
I remember when the civil rights movement had one leader..and what happened to him.
It also had two politicians who were helping the movement..the president and his attorney general..John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. I also remember what happened to them.
Nuff said.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. A lot harder to kill something that doesn't have a head..
A lot of things without a head can be chopped into pieces and each one will regrow.

Things with a head pretty much die when you chop it off.

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yeah. It's like The Blob. n/t
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. One of Steve McQueen's earlier roles..
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. or a worm
cut it up and each piece becomes another organism

http://annoyingorange.com/2011/09/gumbrawl/
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. Not a good analogy.
The Blob: mindless, greedy and easily shut down with cold.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. I picked it because I remembered it being amorphous and hard to kill.
I forgot about the cold.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. At least you didn't pick triffids.
They were beaten with salt water!
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. There are some more sophisticated life forms without a head..
I was actually thinking of starfish when I wrote the post.

And then someone pointed me to this book..

http://www.amazon.com/Starfish-Spider-Unstoppable-Leade...

Understanding the amazing force that links some of todays most successful companies

If you cut off a spiders leg, its crippled; if you cut off its head, it dies. But if you cut off a starfishs leg it grows a new one, and the old leg can grow into an entirely new starfish.

Whats the hidden power behind the success of Wikipedia, craigslist, and Skype? What do eBay and General Electric have in common with the abolitionist and womens rights movements?

What fundamental choice put General Motors and Toyota on vastly different paths? How could winning a Supreme Court case be the biggest mistake MGM could have made?
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Looks like interesting reading.
Thanks.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Also pretty much the point of "The Starfish & the Spider."
http://www.amazon.com/Starfish-Spider-Unstoppable-Leade...

Brafman and Beckstrom, a pair of Stanford M.B.A.s who have applied their business know-how to promoting peace and economic development through decentralized networking, offer a breezy and entertaining look at how decentralization is changing many organizations. The title metaphor conveys the core concept: though a starfish and a spider have similar shapes, their internal structure is dramatically differenta decapitated spider inevitably dies, while a starfish can regenerate itself from a single amputated leg. In the same way, decentralized organizations, like the Internet, the Apache Indian tribe and Alcoholics Anonymous, are made up of many smaller units capable of operating, growing and multiplying independently of each other, making it very difficult for a rival force to control or defeat them. Despite familiar exampleseBay, Napster and the Toyota assembly line, for examplethere are fresh insights, such as the authors' three techniques for combating a decentralized competitor (drive change in your competitors' ideology, force them to become centralized or decentralize yourself). The authors also analyze one of today's most worrisome "starfish" organizationsal-Qaedathough that group undermines the authors' point that the power of leaderless groups helps to demonstrate the essential goodness and trustworthiness of human beings. (Oct. 5)
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Starfish are what I was thinking of when I wrote the post..
I hadn't heard of that book, very interesting, thanks for posting.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. yep... all this hand-wringing about what they want, etc
are just lame attempts to detract from the movement's message and continuing power.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well said shr! n/t
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. The concern trolls are all over the place this morning. Stephanie
Miller has been taking calls from these clowns throughout her show!

K&R.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's idiotic and insulting.
Andrew Young.

Jesse Jackson.

John Lewis.

Ralph Abernathy.

Stokeley Carmichael.

Malcolm X.

Charles Sherrod.

Joseph Lowery.


I'm not even warmed up, and that's just a few flecks from the top layer of the black end of the civil rights business. When you get into Cesar Chavez and Betty Friedan territory, the list expands exponentially.


Without leaders or spokespeople, goals are poorly articulated and confusion reigns.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. this is not that.
this is a movement and not a collection of personalities.

this is a gaggle of environmentalists, students w/ unbearable debt, foreclosed upon home owners, labor, etc

all of those messages are the right messages -- this is the left unifying w/out having 1 or 2 or several leaders.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. They need to get back on those messages, and off the "Fuck the Police" themes.
It reminds me of 68 all over again.

And we know what happened in that election year. That was a whole lotta cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. oh fer fucks sake
:eyes:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I don't force you to adhere in lockstep to my POV.
Please afford me the same courtesy, for fuck's sake, and all that....
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. you're welcome to think what ever you want.
i don't have the Power of Thought Block.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Thank you for that. nt
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. You're rationalizing.
With a hundred different messages being sent, how is anyone going to hear anything?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Like you just said, they weren't the full face of the civil
rights movement so they weren't targeted as were MLK, JFK and RK. Funny, they are all instantly recognized by their initials.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Tell that to Medgar Evers. He was targeted, and no one knows him by his initials.
So were a lot of people down that way, of all colors of the rainbow, acting in leadership positions and speaking out.

People who don't know their own history are condemned to repeat it.
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Ahhhh, Stokeley.
Wasn't he the guy who famously said that a woman's position in the NAACP was 'prone'? (This according to Robin Moore among other 70's feminist writers)

I think I'll take a lack of official leader-type spokes people any day of the week, thanks.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Who said all leaders had to be perfect? Or even politically correct?
Is that one of those New Rules that get inserted when the going gets rough?

Why are you applying a false standard and demand to Carmichael that you seem to be able to ignore when it comes to the guys with the initials--JFK, RFK, and MLK....all of whom were a bunch of whorehound dogs who used women like kleenex. Carmichael's crime in that context was being more honest about the way many men felt about women back in the day--and some do, even today.

You are free to disregard my POV, as I am yours--that's the beauty of "discussion" which is superior in my mind to "indoctrination."
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. One should ask themselves, "which came first-- the movement, or the leaders?"
One should ask themselves, "which came first-- the movement, or the leaders?" Answers vary as there are few absolutes in either history nor social movements.

However, one may also be confident that people step up to positions of leadership only after that leadership becomes necessary to function. If the OWS movement is still functioning, one may gather that leadership is not requited at this time... :shrug:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Usually an idea gets batted around and shared by many before someone steps up.
OWS needs at least spokespeople, if not leaders. Without someone who can validate information, tell the media what is true and what is not, the major themes that will be flogged until they bubble up on the nightly news will be

--Human poop at campsites
--Homeless bums crashing the party, using drugs, causing trouble
--Sex in sleeping bags
--Violence and vandalism and theft
--ACORN secretly running the show

and things of that nature.

It is naive to think that this thing can stay unorganized forever. It can't. Even in Egypt at the Arab Spring demos, there very quickly came to be a cadre of people who communicated with the press and called the shots.

It is my view that unless the movement sticks to its knitting, specifically jobs/economic parity/corporate corruption/governmental enabling/unfair tax codes/greed in banking and stuff of that general group of themes, they risk turning into an Any Protest Fits Most- "United for Peace and Justice" joke.

They did not need to be identified with the Boston accused terrorist, as an example. It doesn't matter how many people say "Well, it was just a few individuals" and "The Steering Committee (or what ever the hell little groupthink group) doesn't have a position on that" the bottom line is that when a big pile of people march from the OWS encampment to the courthouse where Osama's translator is on trial, shouting slogans, it does NOT help the movement and it creates an association. This isn't the "Can a Muslim Get a Fair Trial" protest--it's supposed to be about economic opportunity and corporate corruption.

That's just my opinion.
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2pooped2pop Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. yes, they are trying very hard to keep it a "peoples" movement
Each and every one of us is the leader. I am the leader of the 99% You are the leader of the 99%. No one is THE leader. WE are ALL the leader. We are the 99%.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. The powers that be in the Democratic party..
Are just concern trolling because they want to make sure it's a pre-approved leader who will toe the party line and not point out how complicit the Dems are in this whole economic debacle we're in.

They want to make sure any energy and effort is used to elect more Dems to do more of the same, and they're worried that if OWS gets a leader who is not beholden to the party machinery and the party money that they will start calling them out on their role in our current situation.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
14. And don't forget Medgar Evars
and Malcom X. Pacifist leaders in this country don't fare well.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. What's with "concerned" in quotation marks?
You think anyone who wants to contribute to the discussion without being in lock step with your beliefs is automatically a troll or something?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I don't label anyone a troll, they can do that for themselves.
I also don't have to defend my use of quotation marks.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. No, you don't.
I simply asked.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. concern trolling is a very, very old tactic
and yes, those who use it should be treated with suspicion at the least. It usually consists of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt on at least one and up to three or four main points that are continually asked, regardless of the number or quality of answers the troll receives.

It's an old idea as online memes go, actually.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
33. That does seem to be the reference. It's pathetic. Like Freeperville.
All will have the same POV or be cast out as sinners~~!!!

Thought we were better than that....
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. I've been to the Occupy Chicago site the past 2 weeks and the leaderless "vibe" does work, for now
but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be thinking of strategizing on what's next. Most great social movements had years of dedicated strategy before payoff (for better or worse, the anti-abortion movement comes to mind - it's been decades in the making, or women's suffrage, the civil rights era etc.).

Face it, it's going to get too cold for the outdoor Occupy encampments to continue in the northern climates. While we may not need any leaders yet, perhaps we can begin some movements that also can work over the winter.

Some suggestions:

1. We need to hit them in the pocketbook. Continuing to encourage people to move their money out of the big corrupt banks and into their local banks and/or credit unions.

2. Christmas is coming up. How about we spear a movement to buy local from local producers. Don't spend money at the big stores - just stop. Make it your own. Or encourage businesses to post that they are "Occupy" supporters and patronize them. We need an economic hit plan and Christmas is a blockbuster event for us to work with in order to make a big dent in their bottom line.

3. How can we co-opt New Year's Eve so it becomes an "Occupy event"? That mass of people all carrying signs AND protesting AND having a party would be a blast!

Anyway, some thoughts
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. I think your ideas are very interesting.
I also think that a freewheeling quasi-organization like OWS can be a highly creative force. I think there are some implications of our instant-communication links that have not yet been explored in terms of group structures & functioning. I suspect that highly interconnected groups may have some emergent properties that we haven't even begun to recognize.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. We need an "economic hit plan" next I believe.
That would be very grassroots and very effective as we move into the year's most commercial season. Organizing via electronic communication would/could very well make this work.

I'm not handy or crafty but I do make a mean spaghetti sauce. I'd be willing to stop buying gifts and make this this year in support of the movement. Or only get crafts at the farmer's market and gift those.

There must be a lot of ideas we can use to begin detangling ourselves from the economic process and give them a body blow. Moving money out of the big banks is a great step. I really believe in that too but we need to build on those ideas.

I like the idea of a general strike but fear that it will be too hard for so many desperately underemployed people to really do. Beyond that fear though is the reality that it's planned for next year. I'd hate to lose the momentum
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. +1 Good thoughts, those. nt
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
28. It took several examples in the Middle East recently.....
...to make the American people realize, once more, (the 1960s?) that the right to assemble is their inalienable right and that exercising it, quietly and universally, is one of the most powerful weapons they have against entrenched political and economic tyranny and other oppressions.

The people leaderless? They are leading themselves, everywhere, in unison and in formidable array.

And the best part? It is just the tip of the iceberg - I mean: the tip of the smoking volcano.


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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-27-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
38. I thought this debate was settled weeks ago. Are the cynics behind on the news? nt
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