Serious question: what's the end-game strategy for OWS?

[Bake]

At some point, it has to end. Dem. Mayor Villaraigosa said yesterday that they can't camp out at City Hall indefinitely, and he's right. This is not going to go on all winter. After a while, the effectiveness of the demonstrators is diminished, as people get so used to seeing them that they just ignore them. At some point, it has to end. So what happens then?

Why not one giant march on Washington? It worked in the 60s with Dr. King ...

:hi:

Bake

[annabanana]

1. end game?. . Why an end game at all?

If the crowds keep increasing (as they are doing) I think it is up to Congress how long the distress remains unalleviated.

[Bake]

2. If you're waiting for Congress - especially THIS Congress

That's not much of a strategy. If you want to get their attention, a massive march on Washington might be better.

Bake

[annabanana]

3. You mean like the MASSIVE marches against the Iraq invasion?

The ones we had to watch on TRAFFIC CAMS?

That worked really well

[Bake]

4. I mean like the one culminating in Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech

That one changed the course of history.

And that means that OWS needs someone to step foward as a LEADER and a spokesperson. It's too easy to ignore an amorphous leaderless movement -- it may be effective eventually, but it will take years, perhaps decades. Someone needs to step up, and there needs to be a next-step or end-game strategy.

Please don't dismiss my question as being critical. I'm one of the 99% and I support OWS. I'm just asking where it goes from here.

Bake

[coalition_unwilling]

53. Speaking of 'history,' you're engaging in some well-meaning

revisionism. The March on Washington resulted in NO IMMEDIATE LEGISLATION whatsoever. In fact, it was not until LBJ was President that the Civil Rights Act was passed.

Oakland's General Assembly voted overwhelmingly last night for a General Strike to begin next Wednesday, Nov. 2. Tha is enough of a 'next step' for me.

[shraby]

86. What changed that "course of history" was the riots

not the speech. If the riots hadn't happened, the speech wouldn't have done a thing in congress.

[newspeak]

116. well, you know back when Dr. King made his speech

we did actually have a better media. The media today, is much more beholden to the corporate masters. Look who owns most of the major networks, and how that assault on Iraq was going to benefit some of them. Some of the networks are very much in the MIC business.

[badtoworse]

5. Endgame? How about a defined set of objectives?

Not just vague concepts like ending income inequality. Everybody wants that, but how should that be accomplished? Is there even agreement on how it came about?

[Azathoth]

13. Bingo

It's less than a year till the next election, and, sadly, this movement doesn't show any sign of evolving past the inchoate anger stage. You can't have an 'endgame' if you haven't even outlined the specific objectives of the 'game.'

[Bragi]

20. "Jail the Thieves" sounds kinda specific to me /nt

[Azathoth]

24. Which thieves? One what specific charges? Or should we just start lynching anyone in a business suit

who looks like they make more than 100k a year?

"Jail the thieves" isn't specific. It's a vague, angry slogan. Name names, cite statutes, show how the law was broken. Publish a list of people who should be charged, what the charges should be, and hammer it home to any reporter who will listen. Have people walk into townhall meetings and debates and ask politicians and candidates while the TV cameras roll if they will work to see these specific people prosecuted. Then go out and organize election efforts based on their responses.

That's how a movement effects actual change.

[Bragi]

30. I don't agree

Jail the Thieves is quite specific enough, thanks. The approaches you talk about are conventional "inside the box" politics that the oligarchs can easily ride out and ignore, as they always have. I fully support the direct action concept embraced by the 99% movement, and I support tapping into the widespread anger over growing inequality.

Ultimately, the people who need to respond to the anger with specific solutions aren't the people with the signs, it's the people elected to come up with solutions. If the pols can't do this, then they need to be tossed out, and I think it much more likely that the 99% movement will see to their ouster than will the traditional lefties (like me) who politely read their usual solutions at a obscure Congressional hearing or news conferences where no reporters show up.

[Azathoth]

37. "Outside the box" is a euphemism for "standing in the park chanting and playing bongo drums"

I'm sure the oligarchs are quaking in their shoes.

Politicians respond to organized threats to their reelection, not to small groups of angry, disorganized people camping out in the local park. No pols are going to be "tossed out" that way.

[Bragi]

57. You mean all that ballot box power that has worked so well so far?

Do you really think it matters to the oligarchs which of the two traditional oligarch-friendly party gets elected? Recent history suggests quite clearly otherwise.

[a simple pattern]

125. A citizen occupying a public space for the purpose of political speech

is definitely a threat to the oligarchy, and exactly why they are quaking in their shoes.

[Bake]

43. "Jail the Thieves" is fabulous.

And nobody ends up going to jail. But you FEEL so much better.

It has to be specific.

Bake

[Bragi]

So should the protesters prepare all the legal documents?

You mean the protesters should do all the work of the police and the prosecution?

How about direct action to scare the shit out of the pols who run the DOJ (gee, who would that be?) who can then choose to do their job, or get tossed?

[Bake]

66. Of course not. Get real.

Nice logical fallacy there, though. Reductio ad absurdum.

Bake

[badtoworse]

56. Your approach will accomplish nothing

Without defined objectives, all the politicians will hear is "people are pissed off". Guess what - people are always pissed off about lots of different things and have been for decades. Do you honestly believe politicians will pay attention to a group that can't define what it wants?

If you can't do better than "jail the thieves", I suggest you give up on OWS and try something that might actually be productive.

[Bragi]

60. Make some specific demands and change'll happen?

Traditional "responsible" politics has brought in three decades of growing inequality, people are now truly angry, the hoax of social progress has been exposed, and you now want more of the kind of politics that allowed the problems to fester and grow?

[coalition_unwilling]

Occupy Los Angeles turned 23 days old on October 23 and its

General Assembly read out a list of preliminary demands from the Demands and Objectives committee (for OLA only) that DID NOT include the vague concept of 'ending income inequality) and DID include the specific demand of "a massive increase in government spending on infrastructure projects."

Or maybe you will say that demand is not specific enough?

[66 dmhlt]

95. OWS is a "Cri de Coeur" - Our "Cry from the Heart" ...

To deliver us from the system of Corporate Socialism - a welfare state for the rich - that we currently live under.

The process, not the platform, is the point.

Anyway, OWES is not the Brookings Institution. But its implicit grievances are plain enough: the mass pain of mass unemployment, underemployment, and economic insecurity; the corrupting, pervasive political influence of big money; the outrageous, rapidly growing inequality of wealth and income; the impunity of the financial-industry scammers whose greed and fraud precipitated the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression; a broken political system hobbled by a Republican right willing and usually able to block any measures, however timid and partial, that might relieve the suffering.

Source:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/10/17/111017taco_talk_hertzberg

And Keith Olbermann offered a detailed list of concerns and grievances here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2096999

[MH1]

106. unfortunately, some OWS's are even far afield from 'income inequality' as an issue

if they don't get their sh*t together soon it is going nowhere. At least not anywhere that will actually help anyone.

[Cumberland Guy]

118. I 2nd the Bingo!

I 2nd the Bingo! This is way to ill-defined at this point to accomplish much.

[redgiant]

120. You dare to ask a rational and reasonable question? n/t

[Bragi]

6. #Occupy is a tactic, the 99% is the movement

I think the Occupy tactic is non-sustainable in the long-term. It isn't a tactic in which most members of the 99% can participate. The separate, isolated camps are also too vulnerable to eventual dispersement by police.

Having said that, the camps have served amazingly well to galvanize a lot of people, and have already changed political discourse.

I agree, though, that there will be a need for post #Occupy tactics for the 99% movement.

I too favour bringing it all together into one or more same-day huge protest events that everyone can attend, and that can't be ignored. (As in Washington, Chicago and LA maybe.)

[Azathoth]

14. Large rallies/protests are quickly forgotten. Remember Glenn Beck's 60,000 strong event?

Yeah, me neither.

Until OWS decides to mature into a concrete, focused, organized political force, it isn't going to get anywhere with the 99%.

[mattclearing]

7. The whole point is not leaving till they get what they came for. n/t

[badtoworse]

8. What's that?

[TBF]

17. Economic equality. nt

[Bragi]

21. Exactly

That is NOT a non-specific demand.

[Bake]

22. That's a nice amorphous blob.

And while I agree, it has to translate into something SPECIFIC that you want the nation ... Congress ... the President ... SOMEBODY ... to DO.

Otherwise it's a waste of time.

Bake

[TBF]

25. Which side are you on?

http://youtu.be/8Dr05tXktSo

Which side are you on (Rebel Diaz - watch above on You Tube)

Which side are you on?

See I gotta draw the line, I can't take it no more
If you ain't down with revolution, what you waiting for?
Making money for suckers and our communities poor
Ripping flags off of coffins, man, this ain't our war
Colonized and terrorized by the world's biggest killers
The US government, the biggest weapon and drug dealers
Filling prisons with children, incarcerating the future
Myspace and Facebook got us stuck on computers
Stuck on stupid bumping music that's abusive to the shorties
And the nonsense that you spitting, they just listen and absorb it
I've been dormant, I've awoken, I'm a giant, I'm ready
I'm with the APPO in Oaxaca and we holding machetes

I rock hard like Palestinian children holding slingshots!
I'm with every single kid that's down for hip hop
For the culture, the life, what it really stands for
This music is resistance, it's the voice of the poor
I'm on the side of the workers, the teachers, and lunch ladies
On the streets with brown mommies raising our brown babies
I'm with youth organizers cleaning up the Bronx river
I'm like Jaime Escalante when I stand and deliver
I'm with Evo Morales, man, he running Bolivia
Distribution of the land so we could all live bigger
I'm with Hugo and Fidel, Grandmaster and Melle Mel
I'm with the Panthers up in Queens, justice for Sean Bell
I'm with Camacho Negrón, I'm with Ojeda Ríos
Freedom for Oscar Lopez, time to get an appeal
I'm with Abu-Jamal, I'm with Assata Shakur
I'm with the compas in Immokalee getting a penny more!

Which side are you on?
Chi city!
Which side are you on?
South Bronx!
Which side are you on?
Oaxaca!
Which side are you on?
Palestina!

I'm with Elvira Arellano, I'm with Rudy Lozano
I'm for a world without borders and a better tomorrow
I'm with Mothers on the Move, I'm with sistas on the rise
I'm with La Peña del Bronx, keeping culture alive
I'm with the kids at the Batey, watching a beat battle
Mean mugging all these yuppies in shorts and brown sandals
I'm with parents everywhere fighting for good schools
And for all these good women to find some good dudes
I'm with Salvador Allende, I'm Super Anti Momio!
Con el pueblo en la Havana grito Viva Cuba Cono!
For immigrants, activists, unions, and freelancers
For DJs, MCs, bombers, and breakdancers
I'm with editors, engineers, Indymedia
I'm with my family and my crew, Rebel Diaz
I'm with DJ Disco Wiz, a Latino pioneer
Cause it's dope when the elders break bread with the kids

I'm for telling the truth, exposing the lies
Think about the dead soldiers when you're driving your ride
Them people died for the oil and Daddy Bush's revenge
I'm with the widows, the children, and the lonely best friends
I'm with Families Stayin' Together as ONE
I'm not for the raids and the deportations!
I'm with Victor Toro and the M.I.R
So watch out for those snitches in that unmarked car!
And for Lil Saulito, we gonna fight for your moms
So we gonna shout her out, twice in one song
I'm for twelve million workers and Elvira Arellano
I'm for a world without borders and a better tomorrow

[pipi_k]

27. so what does that mean?

If someone asks questions or points out what s/he sees as potential problems, doesn't march in lockstep with everyone else, that means the person is with the "enemy", or deserves to have his/her motives questioned?

[Occulus]

59. Yes, they do, and you know just as well as I do and the rest of us do

that these exact "concerns" have been gleefully used by trolls here and on other board since OWS began.

Get behind OWS, or get the fuck out of the way, pipi.

WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON?

[Psephos]

137. George Bush: Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists.

Knew I'd heard that somewhere before.

Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

[Bake]

36. Which side am I on??: Are you for freakin' REAL???

I'm asking about long-term STRATEGY!!

Without STRATEGY, the civil rights movement would have been just a lot of black folk getting beat down by The Man, and ultiamtely achieving NOTHING.

And you're asking me what side I'm ON???? You'd better start thinking a little more long term.

Jesus effin' H ...

Bake

[Bragi]

61. I agree with Bake here

Questioning strategy and tactics is not treachery. It's what needs to happen in any healthy political movement.

I disagree with Bake on tactics, but I doubt very much that we disagree a lot on goals.

We need to debate this kind of thing thing with respect, and without questioning each others motives.

[TBF]

79. The problem with the left right now -

and I mean leftists, not the third way folks, is that we likely disagree on end result. Some want social democracy, others want socialism. Working within the system or overturning it are very different outcomes. Strategies and tactics will be different.

We are better off, I believe, keeping this thing loose and allowing more and more people to join. It's likely that it'll underground over the winter and then come out stronger in the spring. I'd vote to keep letting it run it's course because it's been so successful.

Consider what will happen if we (a) wrap it up with one big strike and then go home (b) call for certain legislation, which will get obstructed, as we go home (c) turn it into a political party and go home ... any of these options result in folks being channeled into existing roles that aren't working.

That is why I get skeptical when folks start insisting "you must have strategies" "you must have goals". Why?? So the status quo can neatly move us into a direction that will shut us down? Nope, we have gotten more interest and support the past month just by occupying. I think that strategy - just occupying - is brilliant. We got the 1%'s attention and that is something that really hasn't happened on a big scale in 30 years.

[TBF]

82. Please see #81 -

I tried to coherently put my thoughts together there in response to Bragi. I apologize if you are really on the side of the workers, but please consider what I've written.

As far as the civil rights movement, it may have advanced us socially somewhat, but I'm still thinking we have a long way to go. They may have achieved some legislation, but it hasn't changed economics much has it?

You'd better believe I'm thinking long term - I'm not into crumbs. I want the fucking capitalism GONE and I have a good idea of what it's going to take to make that happen.

[Change has come]

104. Have you been to your local occupy general assembly?

They would love to hear from you!

[pipi_k]

26. Define "economic equality"

just for my own curiosity...what does that mean?

Everyone makes the same hourly wage?

If that's not it, then what?

[pnorman]

35. A 10 to 1 spread works very well in the social-democratic nations.

20 to 1 was where the US stood before Reagan. That worked more or less, but with still a lot of injustices.

But the present 400 to 1 spread???

[Bragi]

62. Greatr answer! I'm filing it away. /nt

[Puzzledtraveller]

70. how?

[TBF]

74. Depends upon who you're asking -

some want to get the money out of politics, regulate, and tax. I think that's where most of the social democrats are coming down.

Others, socialists and communists, believe we need to get rid of capitalism because the system itself is inherently unequal and can't be sufficiently regulated.

[mattclearing]

117. They issued a list of demands weeks ago. n/t

[AngryAmish]

9. To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!

[HappyMe]

46. You forgot about the

wailing and gnashing of teeth!

[GliderGuider]

10. "End game" implies "over". That's the wrong way to think of this.

Is there an "end game" to waking up in the morning? To my mind, OWS is more about a generalized awakening and shifting (or establishing) the discourse in a whole bunch of areas, rather than a set of specific demands. The demands are there to focus the discussion, but the significance of OWS goes way deeper than any one of them.

A big march would be a great idea, bit I think it would be better to think of it as just another step in an evolving "conversation in the public square".

[Bragi]

18. "just another step in an evolving conversation in the public square

Good thought, except I'd take out the word "just". There hasn't been anything like OWS and the Occupy camps in decades.

The Occupy camps that now represent the 99% movement have already changed discourse -- social and economic inequality is now talked about as a real problem. This is a huge breakthrough.

The 99% movement will continue, and its tactics (Occupations, mass rallies, etc.) will evolve.

[GliderGuider]

38. I meant that the idea of a march would be "just another step". You're right about OWS. nt

[Bake]

23. Just another step in the evolving conversation?

We have adversaries who have specific policy goals, concrete actions. And make no mistake, they are GOOD AT IT.

The conversation can evolve all you want it to, but in the long run (as economists say) we're all DEAD.

Bake

[GliderGuider]

42. I'm not saying give up specific goals.

One can have both short and long-range objectives at the same time, right?

I'm just cautioning us not to mistakenly think that our pet short-term goals define the deeper message of movement. The message of this movement is far greater than any of the goals it may or may not achieve. OWS is part of the maturing process of humanity. To grow up we have to accomplish a lot of specific things, like overcoming obstacles and enemies with the help of friends and the occasional sorcerer. Just like Joseph Campbell described the Hero's Journey, but on a planet-wide, species-wide scale.

Yes, I really think OWS has the potential to be that big. But it will only become that big if we think of it that way and nurture that potential through all our actions, whether their objectives are short, medium or long term.

[ixion]

11. Serious Answer:

An end to corruption and collusion at the corporate and governmental levels.

[Bake]

32. Great. How are you going to bring that to pass?

Just by holding signs? Camping out at City Hall?

Sorry, but that's not gonna work in the long run. There are thousands of years of history of corruption you've got to overcome. Holding signs and beating drums won't do it.

Better come up with something specific.

Bake

[ixion]

75. my answer was very specific

if you don't like it, that's your problem.

The banksters and status quo corrupt pols thank you for your support.

[Abin Sur]

34. An end to government corruption?

:rofl:

Why not ask for moonbeams and faerie dust while you're at it?

[ixion]

76. it's actually very simple to solve:

make government transparent and accountable.

Of course, as long as you continue to elect corrupt politicians, and then allow them to practice their corruption, that'll never happen.

[Abin Sur]

78. "Corrupt politicians"? That term is redundant.

[ixion]

85. I would agree...

still, my point remains: If you don't allow them an avenue to act out on their corruption, it effectively solves the issue. And, if they are found to be guilty of corruption, they should be removed post haste.

[Abin Sur]

122. Never going to happen.

Corruption is an inherent feature of politics. It can be reduced, but no eliminated.

[2pooped2pop]

12. It will go on through the winter but smaller

then explode with huge crowds in the spring. Endgame. I guess the main issue would be to stop money from buying our government votes and a congress and house that actually do their job. Read the bills, study them, relay them to constituents and turn around and vote the way the constituents want them to without getting bribed to do it. You know, represent the people. There's plenty of people in AMerica that would be willing to take that job. And we want to give it to them.

[LuvNewcastle]

15. We're a long ways from a culmination.

This movement has just begun and it is going to take years. As it grows, new ways will be explored to accomplish the objectives deemed to be the most important. The Civil Rights movement began before King came along and he wasn't the only leader. The movement didn't achieve the reforms it did just because King gave a speech. To put this all into perspective, you could say that our time is comparable to the date of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka. I'm not saying that this movement will take another 10 to 15 years, but it could. OWS isn't the movement, it is the beginning of the movement. There will be further protests, strikes, and other names for other initiatives to get the objectives met. People will be cursed, beaten, and killed. It will only end when Americans accept the legitimacy of the movement, agree with it's aims, and protesters are satisfied that the primary objectives have been met.

[Bake]

45. We don't have years to wait.

Until Wall Street sees some of their blood on the street, they ain't skeered. Sadly, that may be what it somes to. You think they're scared? They're not scared. They've bought too many politicians.

So we need to come up with something specific.

Bake

[LuvNewcastle]

84. This isn't just about Wall St.,

at least I don't see it that way. It's about bringing down the whole corrupt MIC security state. We have as much time as it takes. They aren't scared because they have so many weapons in their arsenal. Americans have let things go way too far without speaking up. It might be too late; we shall see. They are going to fight tooth-and-nail to stop us because they have nowhere to run to in the event that we win. I think that the only thing we can do now is to bring attention to our cause and gain support. I don't see how we can gain any ground without gaining some converts first. I think a good place to start would be with those Iraq War vets who will be returning soon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. By that analogy, about five years before that

:hi:

[TBF]

16. Well the police will continue to push and doubtful many camps will survive the winter

or they will with limited action. I expect they will take the action indoors and come out stronger and even more organized in the spring. This was not a haphazard event - activists planned it for months.

[dmosh42]

19. I think many miss that they're only seeing the "tip of the iceberg".

The general population is realizing that this social and economic injustice is not affecting only a small amount of people. So the idea has been reinforced by the OWS movement, and will come to the forefront again and again, sometimes in spurts, and sometimes like a tidal wave. It will end when the country is no longer run like an oligarchy.

[Le Taz Hot]

28. Please tell me you're not serious

about your claim that achieving Civil Rights legislation was via ONE MARCH in DC. If so, you need to do some serious, extensive reading about the Civil Rights Movement in the 20th Century.

[Bake]

33. Oh fucking get real!

Dear God, no it wasn't one march.

Good lord, I'm asking questinos of idiots!!

You people think camping out at City Hall is going to change anything????

THERE ARE NO LEADERS. WHERE IS THE MLK OF THIS MOVEMENT? THERE HAVE TO BE LEADERS. THERE HAVE TO BE DEFINED GOALS -- SOMETHING SPECIFIC THAT WE WANT SOMEONE (presumabley in Congress or the Executive Branch) TO DOOOOOOOOO!

What the fuck ever.

Bake

[Le Taz Hot]

54. Well, then, perhaps I misread this:

"Why not one giant march on Washington? It worked in the 60s with Dr. King ..." :shrug:

"You people think camping out at City Hall is going to change anything?" Why, yes I do. It's the way all peaceful movements start, but this one is on an excellerated path which we in the 60's did not experience. You're trying to make the OWS movement mimick that of the various movements of the 60's and it's just not going to happen. These youngins are smart as hell as they apparently HAVE read their history and know full well what happens to pacifict leaders in this country.

You can embrace the movement or you can continue to CHOOSE to be confounded by it. It's up to you.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shraby]

88. If I remember correctly that the civil rights movement DID

have one leader..and what happened to him. It also had two politicians who were helping the movement..the president and his attorney general..John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. I also remember what happened to them.
Nuff said.

[caledesi]

99. Bake, Kill the "leader"...it is purpseful by OWS. they don't play

by YOUR M$M rules. they are smart. go to their website if you REALLY want specifics!

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Go down to your occupy

If you are good at group dynamics...you will notice them are not quite that leaderless.

[firehorse]

29. Framing it in terms of end game is kind of like thinking in terms of corporate business models

end game = profits, and that's not what this is about

It's very "american" to think of it that way, I was discussing this same thing in my hallway yesterday. This is a movement and the movement defines its successes, and its success is probably not defined by things like how dirty the people are or how long its lasts.

Maybe there will be marches, or maybe one location gives birth to another spreading like fire or a butterfly effect till the entire 99% finally get de-programmed.

[Bragi]

31. Good points /nt

[Bake]

41. Then you'd better have 100 years to wait....

I don't think we have that long.

Bake

[firehorse]

50. It's not constructive to frame the movement in the same way Fox news does.

And 100 years is not accurate. Look how many cities have been occupied in the last 5 weeks. Occupying cities 3 cities at a time is much more effective an ongoing than a parade for the day. Though I'm not against a parade, you can do both.

[Modern_Matthew]

39. OWS just stepped out of the primordial soup a little over a month ago...

And already they are calling for general strikes, one on Nov. 2nd and another on May 15 of next year.

The camps and tents will become city fixtures, yes. People will get used to them, yes. The first call of a general strike may be a failure, yes.

But this is not an organized movement. It is a living and breathing manifestation of everyone that has been left in the dust. The crowds will grow and the ideas will continue to flow.

This is what a real movement looks like. It's both social and political. It's not a, "Hey, everyone meet here for an hour or two, then go home." It's much more than that. And I see it. I don't know why others struggle to do the same. This is an awakening.

[Bake]

49. General strikes are a great next step.

Let's do it.

Then what? I suppose we have to wait and see.

Bake

[HappyMe]

55. Here's the thing about the

general strike -- I have a job interview scheduled for next week. If I get this job, I'm supposed to not show up? If I already had an hourly paying job, I'm sorry but I would not 'strike'. Every penny counts. Great idea, but I have a utility bill that needs to be paid.

[Bake]

58. Bingo. And I'm still getting resumes out.

:hi:

Bake

[HappyMe]

65. sigh! Fun, isn't it?!

They keep saying that the strike will hit the 1% in the wallet. It will hit the hourly workers harder. Ya don't punch in, ya don't get paid.


:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Are you in the city limits of Oacland?

Otherwise it ain't apply to you.

[GliderGuider]

90. Everyone has the right to honour their own conscience and needs.

It's a tough decision, but only you can make it. OWS doesn't have shop stewards... yet.

[HappyMe]

102. Shop stewards?

:shrug:

[GliderGuider]

105. Union reps - one of their roles is to enforce strikes called by the union.

Since we're talking about strikes and whether or not one should participate, I thought of union shops where it's very hard to opt out of a strike. Here all we need to do is make a personal choice.

[HappyMe]

113. Okay, thanks for the info. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. The fact you need to ask that question

Is more fodder as to why we need to relight the battles of labor...dear they included strikes.

[lynne]

40. Agreed. There has to be a solid objective and a plan to achieve it -

- or it will just fizzle-out. Today its news. If it continues as is - without positive advancement - it will soon be old news and will be ignored.

One huge march would work but would soon be forgotten. Better would be getting OWS-minded candidates into the political mix.

[RC]

44. End Game, how about this?

While the post at the link was about the so-called Super Committee, they are only another symptom of government corruption.
The listed items are among the problem that need to be addressed by OWS and the 99%.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2190524&mesg_id=2190758

[Avalux]

47. I don't see it that way....

what's going on is unlike anything experienced in this country; it's a movement that represents a broad range of discontent; the realization that our 'democracy' isn't working for the people.

I don't care much about an end game; what I want to see is a change in the fundamental mindset of our society - from a consumption "I have mine" mentality to one of community and the realization that if we all work together instead of divided, we can become the country we should be.

It should never end.

[coalition_unwilling]

48. "It worked in the 60s with Dr. King" - um, actually, the March on

Washington in 1963 did not really produce any immediate results. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1965, after LBJ had become President.

This movement's vitality rests in the way it blends national and global concerns together with local concerns, so the diffusion of the movement across multiple locales constitutes a major part of its strength, not a weakness.

Villaraigosa (and Councilperson Rosendahl who said Occupiers should be "moving on") are both in the hip pockets of the 1%. Don't expect them to depart significantly from their marching orders any time soon. I'll never vote for either again, unless each publicly recants his anti-working class sentiment and soon.

[ClassWarrior]

51. Win?

:rofl:

NGU.

[LanternWaste]

52. It certainly appears otherwise...

"After a while, the effectiveness of the demonstrators is diminished..."

It certainly appears otherwise. The interest seems to be going up, the news reports are not merely national now, but also local reports too, the politicians are not merely aware of the movement, but have attempted to either diminish or co-opt the message (depending on which side of the aisle they are from), and the movement seems to continue growing in size and in numbers. :shrug:

That aside, I imagine that there is no one specific goal that grows from an organic movement much as there was no one specific goal during the civil rights protests-- another organic movement that grew in numbers, size and strength during its own multi-year career, without what you state as a concomitant diminishing interest or weakening of structure, form, and foundation.

An interesting thing about Dr. King's March on Washington was its critics from the left, including Malcolm X who called it a "circus"; and others who were "concerned that it might turn violent, which could undermine pending legislation and damage the international image of the movement."

As for its agenda, the NAACP and the Urban League "saw it as a gesture of support for a civil rights bill", while "...the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) saw it as a way of raising both civil rights and economic issues to national attention beyond the Kennedy bill". The SNCC and CORE "saw it as a way of challenging and condemning the Kennedy administration's inaction and lack of support for civil rights for African Americans..."

So it appears that much as OWS, the Civil Rights Protests had no one specific agenda either.

[Bake]

69. Diminishing returns...

It'w been what .. a month?

Let's wait and see what diminishes. Especially when it gets COLD.

Bake

[LanternWaste]

94. We see what we want to...

We see what we want to.

Civil rights marches, sit-ins and protests happened in January and February months also... :shrug:

[yoyossarian]

134. Bake, PLEEEZ...

Go home, have some soup. Take a nap. Relax a bit.
These things take time.

[bluedigger]

63. A march on Washington would be a good way to bring it to an end.

But logistically difficult for a nationwide event. As others have pointed out, OWS is just a tactic or stage in a process of developing a movement which has longer term goals that are still unclear. It has already served a valuable purpose in changing the national conversation from deficits to jobs. I believe that OWS will survive the winter as long as Congress continues to obstruct any progress (which it will) and that OWS will have a significant role in the next elections.

[philly_bob]

67. Final action is giant protest to delayed deficit reduction deal.

You know, the "Super Committee" where all the Republicans have signed pledges not to raise taxes.

[DainBramaged]

68. End game? Same as finding leaders.......

[Fumesucker]

71. It took a minimum of thirty years to get to this point..

And really more like fifty years if you count from some of the earlier turning points.

To be talking about "end game" at this juncture is just a trifle premature, there may well not be an "end game" ever since this is going to take at least as long to fix as it took to get broken in the first place.

[Bake]

72. So nobody has answered yet ... whats the next step?

Typical. Are there no strategic thinkers here?

Bake

[firehorse]

77. There is strategy you just are not acknowleging it. You need to go down there and feel it yourself

The movement is growing city by city, as the silent majority joins in establishing a collective consciousness of understanding giving voice to the masses successfully occupying locations transcending cities, states, borders and countries. The end game strategy is that it continues to grow and does not end. That is the main essence you seem to have trouble wrapping your brain around.

Its many messages are spreading like fire on the internet, its reported in newspapers, and on TV, much the way their "human microphone" works.

The idea or "strategy" is that it doesn't end but continues to grow. Get it?

[Bake]

80. Yes, I "got it."

There is no long-term strategy. Just keep camping out and feel the vibes.

I feel them. I just want to know what happens next. Apparently you'd don't.

Bake

[firehorse]

92. have you actually gone down and talked to occupiers or are you just parroting Fox's concerns?

I get the sense from you that you are not really interested in strategy at all. If you were you'd go down and talk to the occupiers and involve yourself instead of relying on the filtered meme of the Fox.

A ONE day parade is not strategy, its a one time event to kill it. As the movement grows and inclusive with the 99% its a success, its already successful. A parade is not going to change legislation, continued relentless growth has a better chance for action.

[LanternWaste]

96. You appear to conflate prognostication and curiosity...

You appear to conflate prognostication and curiosity... :shrug:

[yoyossarian]

135. Do you, like, read the endings of books first?

EVERYONE wants to know what happens next... but the future is unknowable.

The Iraq vet being critically injured in the infuriating police state exercise in Oakland less than two days ago is spawning a HUGE INSURGENCE of angry Marines into OWS... and guess what? That's just the beginning... because all those OTHER dudes will be coming home from Iraq very soon, and finding their country is now quickly becoming another sort of war zone, as the thoughtless rich push back at the movement with all the ready cash they have on hand... but they are underestimating the size and scope of this movement, and everything they do to crush it will only increase its growth rate EXPONENTIALLY.

Just an observation. Can't tell you how it's all gonna end, though.

End Game my ass. We're only in the FIRST INNING.

[The2ndWheel]

83. Know what's weird?

That's sounds like the strategy of one of those big corporations. Never ending growth.

[Bake]

89. "Does not end" is not realistic.

It WILL end, sooner or later. Probably around the fist frost.

What happens then?

Nobody, apparently, has thought about that. That's the problem with amorphous movements like this. Somebody has to think about the next step. You obviously are not.

Bake

[GliderGuider]

91. No, somebody does not have to "think about the next step".

That's what an organic movement is all about. Throw an idea out there, and if it gets enough traction someone makes it happen. It's a messy process, and confusing/intimidating to Type "A" linear thinkers, but trust us, this is the very best way to do it for long-term success. The movement isn't about fixing this or that problem, though it might do some of that. The movement is about shifting the global industrial culture onto a more humane path, on every level. That kind of goal, if it is reached at all, can only be attained through organic growth, common intention and a heaping helping of serendipity. Planning isn't good enough to do it. Planning will cause the whole experiment to fall flat on its tuchis in the mud.

Try reading Paul Hawken's book "Blessed Unrest" to see an even larger movement that has developed along these same principles. It now has probably 100 million+ members world-wide and is growing by 30% a year, yet it never got identified by anybody as a "Movement". It's so distributed, leaderless and resilient that it simply cannot be shut down.

In fact, OWS is a part of the meta-movement that Hawken describes.

[lonestarnot]

73. Would you like a cookie?

[Bake]

81. Cookie? No. I'd like a llong term strategy.

But if you don't, fine. Keep camping out and wonder what happens after the cops tear gas you home. I'm done.

You people are so short sighted it's ridiculous, and doomed to fail.

Bake

[LanternWaste]

101. When and who precisely did the leaders of the civil rights movement

"ou people are so short sighted it's ridiculous, and doomed to fail..."

When and who precisely did the leaders of the civil rights movement say would be the last day of that struggle? What precisely was the pre-planned long-term strategy, who is that attributed to, and precisely what was that strategy?

It thus appears the Civil Rights movement was not doomed to fail despite having little to no long-term strategies, no precise end-date, and regardless of the presence of tear gas.

Further, it appears that unless you receive an absolute strategy plan from someone on a message board, you believe the movement is short sighted and will fail. As said elsewhere, we see what we want to and what better validates our presumptions.

[Bake]

108. Duh. There were leaders in that movemet ... King, Abernathy, et al.

Appararently you've got nobody.

Bake

[Gold Metal Flake]

103. So make "a llong term strategy" of your own!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2193864&mesg_id=2194289">Good Lord, I'm responding to questinos of idiots!!.

[GliderGuider]

87. Catalyzing a series of General Strikes works for me. So long as we don't call it an "end-game".

Don't try and re-live the 60's - it's like generals always trying to fight the last war.

A series of general strikes, expanding in scope over time would be a very interesting tactic. There may still be just enough time to organize the first one to coincide with the collapse of the Greek economy. Tie it into the global links between trans-national banks and it ends up right back at Wall Street.

Use the strikes as teaching/learning opportunities. Have them happen in as many countries as possible. The reasons for the strikes should be entirely local so the movement don't get identified by a single specific mission. Having a single mission and/or a single leader is the kiss of death.

[Township75]

93. End Game = OWS becomes Get Out The Vote effort for Dems.

not that I support that, but by 2012 cardboard signs, drum lines, and chanting slogans won't be fun or fullfilling anymore, and with no strategy, they will hang their hopes on the easiest thing to come along.

[GliderGuider]

97. So what about the parts of it outside your fair land?

[Township75]

98. What "parts" are they? Got a good view of them? You tell me.

.

[Fire Walk With Me]

100. To force or create a society based upon people instead of greed.

[bengalherder]

107. We have a long ways to go to end game

This things got legs and it's in growth stage right now. It's got a ways to go. As an example, check out the anonymous struggle with scientology. This form of activism combining internet speech with IRL gandhi-tech protests has been successful. It is not instant, however. It's been nearly 4 years and they are just truly getting to 'end game' now. Most of it consisted of giving the victims of the church space and safety to leave.


It's is not like any other form of protest movement. You'll either get used to it or not, but this is the way this thing rolls.

[Bake]

109. Sorry, but history says it's doomed to fail, in the short run at least.

And in the long run, we're all dead.

Bake

[CreekDog]

126. that's an incorrect reading of history

it's fairly glib and dismissive. :(

movements that really change things don't rise up with anointed leaders and talking points overnight.

fake movements like the tea party do, but not real ones.

if you don't understand this movement, there is some value in encouraging people joining together to fight the awful economic disparities that in recent years have grown far worse. that's better than saying, "you're not doing it right, you're doomed to fail".

if the premise of your statement is that Vietnam anti-war movements and the Civil Rights movements had quickly marched on Washington and quickly had leaders the movements agreed upon --that's crazy and that's not what happened.

i just ask that you look at history more closely and see what i'm saying.

[yoyossarian]

136. Bake, take a CHILL PILL!

Jeesus, talk about needing instant gratification!

[Ganja Ninja]

110. My guess is that OWS will sort of fade out and be replaced by

general civil unrest as things continue to get worse. Leaders of OWS will step back when violence and rioting become the only recourse of the people. At that point I expect even teabaggers will have turned on establishment.

[randome]

112. There are 'leaders'?

When did this happen?

[Bake]

114. I suspect you are correct

And that's too bad, because there is a real opportunity for serious change here. Without leaders, it may happen, but it will take decades longer. E.g., how long will it take for the teabaggers to figure out that they've been HAD???

But again, I suspect you are correct, unfortunately.

Bake

[CreekDog]

124. that poster is not correct

you guys are both thinking by going to Washington now, or really soon, you'll be copying the Civil Rights movement.

do you know how much activity and how many years of work went on before they marched on DC?

i mean, i have a feeling you know --no idea about the other poster.

and then there was the context, yes, MLK was one leader, but he was just one. there were other leaders pushing for civil rights and other groups and their leaders as well.

i think you're making the mistake of looking back and seeing history in hindsight, condensed and simplified, but when it was happening, it was messy, like this. leaders aren't anointed right away.

it just seems like what you're asking for is not a movement but a big rally with a slogan. but we've had those before. this is trying to be more than that, to get into people's heads, into their daily lives, into the daily news so that people start to internalize it.

takes time and is slow and being a crowdsourced kind of thing, i have a feeling it's not going to have one savior leader, out in front.

[randome]

111. I agree.

If OWS is simply going to consist of thousands of people milling about in a hundred cities, what good will come of it?

Waiting around until the civil authorities react too harshly and then we can complain about how the authorities are so unfair?

The General Strike idea seems to be fading, as well.

I don't care about previous marches, I DO think a march on Washington is more productive than sitting around waving signs and hoping something happens.

If a message is going to be sent, send it to the right people.

It's our lazy-ass elected officials who failed to do their jobs and regulate the economy.

Take the fight to them.

[a simple pattern]

130. You think they're milling about, but they're not.

They're organizing and educating.

[randome]

115. 'Leader' doesn't seem to make any headway.

What OWS needs, at the very least, is a spokesperson.

[CreekDog]

127. really? who was the spokesperson for the Civil Rights movement in its first year?

who? what year did it start?

[Marrah_G]

121. The goal is to continue to bring awareness to the problems and to awake a sleeping populous.

The point is to continue shining a light on the criminal elements that have taken over our society. Knowledge is power, people standing together is power. When enough people stand up the people in power will have to make changes or face the people. its happened over and over throughout history.

Our own revolution was considered a joke by most of the population at its beginning. Just a bunch of kooks thinking they can stand up to the man.....

[CreekDog]

123. What would he have said if you told him in 1955 to march on DC for Civil Rights?

while he was busy with the Montgomery Bus Boycott? and there was 8 years of activism and protest all over the place before he did his march on DC in 1963. 8 years!

and would his message have been clear enough for you? he dabbled in labor, anti-war, anti-poverty and civil rights. muddled? no. the moral message was quite succinct actually.

be careful not to listen to the pundits without critically thinking to figure out if what they've said is correct historically.

:)

[TNLib]

128. I don't see this ending any time soon. The economy will have to get better quick

and the police will have to stop acting like thugs. Neither I think will happen anytime soon. So the protests will continue IMHO.

[Progressive dog]

129. What would you like the strategy to be

The teapublicans have worked toward their goals for at least 30 years, taking a little bit more at a time until they almost have it all. Yeah, let's do a One day march on Washington. That'l fix it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Serious answer attend one

[jberryhill]

139. Everyone gets their pony and rides off into the sunset

But, seriously, what is the "end game" of:

Human existence?

Capitalism?

Love?

Playing the accordion?

Perhaps you should leverage your core competency to incentivize ROI on your exit strategy. Okay?

[opihimoimoi]

140. A GROUP VOW TO VOTE BLUE is the end game....I would suggest anyways... :o)

[SoDesuKa]

141. It Gets a Better Name and Becomes an "-ism"

Feminism and pacificism, among other -isms, don't go away. If you think a movement is over because people no longer take to the streets, just imagine the uproar if there were any significant reversal of feminist gains. It wouldn't take much to re-energize the base of movements that are still active.



OWS is Feminist, Too

[Bluenorthwest]

142. Real life rarely affords for well planned 'endgames' because life has

Many unforeseen variables. Two months ago, OWS was in unforeseen bit of future itself. Grasping at a need for control by whining for promises of the future is absurd.