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16 Things Libyans will never see again. From Daily Kos.

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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:49 PM
Original message
16 Things Libyans will never see again. From Daily Kos.
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 12:53 PM by white_wolf
1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
3. Home considered a human right in Libya
4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family. Is this what you call a dictator Traditional wedding in Tripoli, Libya
5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.
6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms are all for free.
7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it is not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance.
8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.
9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000 14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15
15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree
16. Gaddafi carried out the worlds largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.







Here is one more quote from the article:
Add to the above Women were full and equal participants in Libyan society. Under the ultra religious fanatics (we backed) out of Benghazi women will at best become second class citizens or at worse, property.



Link:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/21/1028596/-16-Things-Libyans-Will-Never-See-Again
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. I can smell the freedom already!nt
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Propaganda. n/t
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Indeed! n/t
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Daily Kos isn't exactly a fringe site.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Anyone can post their own material on Daily Kos, you know.
I could go over there and post a diary saying Ghaddafi was the antichrist and also the hidden shooter on the grassy knoll. Doesn't make it truthful.
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banned from Kos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That would not go over well. Now if you diaried "Obama is the anti-Christ"
that would shoot up the rec list.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Do you really think that's from Daily Kos originally?
If that's your line of argument for why these "things" overwhelm basic human freedoms? I really don't know where you get your conception of human rights from.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. It is at the very least
a compilation of issues which been raised across the media over the past few months
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Or it's really just pro-Gaddafi propaganda...
It was posted on DU a couple of days ago.

http://libyasos.blogspot.com/p/gaddafi.html



HAVE YOUUUU READ THE GREEN BOOK? HERE GIVE HER A COPY OF THE GREEEEEEN BOOK!

:sarcasm:
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. thanks for posting, white_wolf. And don't bother arguing about the merits
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Really? And you base that on what? ....
Which part of that is propaganda? Free healthcare? No interest on loans? (usury is forbidden), free education? literacy rate?

I know you can support your claim. Here's some help: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/ly-libya

"Where is all this data from?
NationMaster compiles statistics from such sources as the CIA World Factbook, United Nations, World Health Organization, World Bank, World Resources Institute, UNESCO, UNICEF and OECD"

http://www.nationmaster.com/faq.php

* * * *

And, yes, civil rights is rated #1 (one being the lowest), which I consider reprehensible.

Just to put it in context, though...Amerikans are being deprived of more of their civil rights every day. And we don't even get free healthcare in the bargain.




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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Try comparing Libya to the U.S.
In most cases the U.S. is better since it is a much wealthier nation, but in 2007 we had 42 executions, Libya had 9. Libya was ranked 64th in number of prisoners, the U.S. was number 1. The U.S. had 206X more prisoners than Libya.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Yes, I did that yesterday, white_wolf, while perusing that site for
another thread. Interesting, isn't it.

Furthermore, someone should be asking about Ghaddafi and his pan-African Bank. Also his plans to base oil trade on the gold Dinar. And how the Goldman Sachs people got their asses handed to them after "losing" 96% of Libya's Sovereign Wealth Fund, and having to scuttle out of the country under bodyguard.

Follow the money.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. The part where Berbers were allowed teach Amazigh to their own children.
What do material things matter when basic human rights such as basic freedom of speech and freedom of religion are utterly disrespected? Oh yeah, how about that right to assemble? It's like your saying that basic human dignities don't matter because they can be bought off :think:

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sibelian Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. And your post saying so

isn't?
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AngkorWot Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Clearly the Libyans had no idea how well off they were under Gaddhafi.
What a bunch of ungrateful bozos.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. It is sad when people don't realize how benevolent their dictator really is and
how much foreigners on the left or right respect him.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. False consciousness is a terrible thing, innit? n/t
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. so NONE of these things are true. ok nt
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. So, other than the fee apartment, oil money, cheap gas, free electricity and guaranteed employment..
... what has Gaddafi ever done for them?


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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. I believe #2 has already been "re-implemented."
The rest remains to be seen. Much remains to be seen.

As to the whole "Women were full and equal participants in Libyan society"...uhm, what?

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RevStPatrick Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Gaddafi and Saddam...
...were both "relatively" good to their subjects.
The highest standards of living in the region.
Unless you got on their bad sides...
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Libya has 33% unemployment and many people lived in poverty.
Of course the World Bank, from where this list came, will not tell you that.
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well, it's obvious we had to show them a better way of life. We know what's right for everyone.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. So why did the Libyan's hate such a godly leader?
The ingrates!
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. A group of Libyans hated the him.
They all didn't hate him.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. 10-15% did not, because they were pampered with special benefits.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. You don't realize the value until its gone.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. That is a bogus list.
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 01:36 PM by tabatha
Jalil just said TODAY - that loans are interest free.

How many of the other items are false.

And by the way, most people think the Great Man Made River is a joke.

I hope Clay Claiborne of Daily Kos responds to this - he knows Libya very well.


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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wow. Gaddafi was such a great guy. No wonder he kept getting re-elected.
And I can see why Libya has always had such a big problem with illegal immigration.
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. What a bunch of asinine bullshit
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 01:47 PM by bengalherder
The original source was the world bank.

This revolution took spark and grew from the roots. Women were involved in it in MAJOR ways and so far they are are honored, not vilified.

It was so much easier for the world bank to deal with Gaddaffi (all you had to do was throw him money to augment his billions) than a bunch of freed people, those unknown quantities, looking after their own intrests and demanding more of their resources for themselves and their country.

Edited to add: This is propaganda. You so guilefully quote this as being from 'DK', however the original info is from the 'world bank'. Have fun with that bank shit. Glad to know how liberal (and gullible) y'all are.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Well apparently they will be under Sharia law so I am sure the women will enjoy that.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. See more info
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. That's what I'm worried about. nt
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Let's see how democratic Libya is in a year or so.
Odds are they will have another dictator and very little of the social-safety net they had under Qaddafi. If you actually think this will result in a democracy you are the one who is naive. The rebels we propped up are not fighting for democracy, this isn't like Egypt or Tunisia. The group that takes power will likely be worse than Gaddaffi, or at very best Libya will end up like Russia. A "guided democracy" under the control of a few capitalist Oligarchs, because the banks pushed shock doctrine on them.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Let us see indeed. Let us not assume Libyans can't govern themselves
without a dictator to take care of them. They have exchanged "security" as long as you didn't cross the ruler for "freedom" if one assumes that Libyans value such a concept.

Let's see how democratic Libya is a year from now. Let's hope they develop like Eastern Europe and Turkey have when the shed dictatorships.
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white_wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I never once said they couldn't govern themselves.
So don't imply that I did. The group we propped up and helped gain power are not interested in democracy and will not let the people of Libya form a democracy. If you actually think we aided the rebels for humanitarian reasons you are blind.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I think you are blind.
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sibelian Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
44. Propaganda, huh?

Your post is different, is it?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. AS long as Libya is an islamic nation number 2 will ALWAYS be true
Interest is outlawed by the Koran.

Even in America, Muslims usually bank at institutions that either don't offer interest on their accounts or make an exception for them.

This being common knowledge, I suspect the entire list is problematic.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Social safety net?
I think you need to watch this video.

http://youtu.be/Mo7Bk7YY8Nc

And the Libyans have chosen for themselves.

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True Earthling Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. Very enlightening... I hope Mr. Jibril's vision comes to fruition.
Very, very smart man. Seems like he has a firm grasp of what they're up against and what needs to be done. The most rational and intelligent assessment I've seen yet.

I liked his views such as "knowledge builds nations", "education and jobs are security, not arms and bombs", " the government should be government of knowledge, to build this country based on scientific principles", "I hope the country won't be ideologised, creating wealth is knowledge, distributing wealth is ideology".

He seems to understand that Libya's oil wealth is not enough and that an alternate economy must be developed for Libya to prosper in the long run. Mr. Jibril would be an excellent choice to run for president... that's If the country can stay together and adopt democracy.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. Post from an actual Libyan on AJE some months ago
Real Libya before the war
Sometimes no garbage pickup, you have to pay for service.
In winter the streets flood, no sewer system.
Electricity cuts normal.
Laws change every time Ghaddafi is on TV.
No schedule for holidays, must watch Libyan State TV night before to see if there is work or school.
No school schedule, final exam times are announced a few weeks before ending of school.
Passing of final exams 50%+ luck and nepotism.
Always pump and store water when available, unannounced cuts (this was worse before man made river-then someone had to wait all night for the sound of water in the pipes so the pump would not be burned by pumping air).
Holes in streets, which are paved, large enough to swallow small cars, many streets just dirt, and this is in good neighborhoods.
Municipal repairs are usually half done and then left, this ensures payment to contractors by government.

Thank you LibyaAbstentia for this post.
I will just add that more than 600 children were infected by aids within few months!!!!
If this happened in any other country in any other city in the world I think foreign medical staff will be in great danger to work after what had happened..but not in Benghazi, as people knew from the very beginnning who was behind this crime.
Libyans know very well that nothing happens without Gadafi's approval.
The things he wants to prevent he do it perfect, and only one thing is important to him his safety and staying in power.
The production of oil is perfectly organised, all companies in oil fields are always American, British, italian and Germany.
The financial system (banks) is perfect.
The external and internal security are 100% efficient when the job has to be done for G and his family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Post from non-Libyan on AJE

A few people all of them with far more experience of Libya than me have shared their experiences of living in or visiting Libya. I went there for 2 weeks in 2007. I was struck how, apart from public monuments, things looked run down for a country with such an allegedly high standard of living. In the east, particularly Benghazi, this was even more so, with dilapidated buildings, ruts in the roads, and a pretty bad sewage problem near the seashore. Getting to Tobruk, the situation was even worse, with the roads off the main highway in a pretty sorry state. The only place where things were different was Sirt, with shiny new monuments to Gaddafi and the Green Book, and obviously recent investment. Anywhere Gaddafi didnt like clearly didnt get any investment (and in those places didnt get any rubbish collection either)

The other thing that struck me was how friendly and welcoming the Libyans all were UNTIL any of us nave foreigners mentioned Gaddafi or the state system. Then they looked terrified in case someone was listening.

Once on our bus when the resident mukhabarat/spy was off taking a rest break our guide DID explain Libyan peoples democracy. Everyone gets together in the local committees and decides what they ought to ask for. Then people go from these to the National Assembly and decide which of all the proposals nationwide ought to go to the leader. People go from the National Assembly and ask Gaddafi for these things, and then he tells us which of them we can have. The idea is to ask for the things we think he will give us. This is Libyan democracy.

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True Earthling Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. Why do those things have to go away? Libyans want freedom not dictatorship.
There was no freedom of the press, no constitution, no elections. Anyone criticizing the regime would end up in prison. Qaddafi's oppressive rule was masked by socialist policies. People here may see no reason for discontent but the Libyan people were not fooled.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. More posts from Libyans
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 02:37 PM by tabatha
Azizor..though I am not Libyan, except with a BIG part of my heart, Tripoli used to by my home for several years..and no I did not live the typical expat compound life but know ample Libyan's and their normal life...and -unfortuantely- can only confirm what you are saying about the lack of infrastruture in Libya.

As soon as you are a few kilometers away from where the tourist cruise ships anchor, where around the green square the roads are indeed fine and the park pretty, many streets have huge wholes nobody bothers to fill or are just dirt tracks. When something is broken e.g. water pipes to a house it usually is the owner who asks people to open the street and fix it, as waiting for the government company to do it can easily take up to 2 years. Yes there is officially free medical treatment..but you get what you pay for and anybody who can afford it rather goes to one of the international hospitals or went to TUnisia for more serious things.

And though it is a country with 2000 km beach front there is only a patch of maybe 200 m 'arranged' as a family beach in Tripoli. While several, if not all of his kids have HUUUUGE beach properties for their private parties, - with sand which got shipped from god knows where because the coast around Tripoli doesn'T offer white enough sand - But mostly they weren'T anyway in L but preferring to party in Europe.

And one of the first things I learned, when naively speaking out G'S name on my first arrival to Libya was to never say his name, because even sthg completely harmless could easily bring you in trouble if overheard by the 'Wrong' people.

There are ample more 'anekdotes' I could tell about the normal life in Tripoli, which for a 'westerne'r make your head shake in disbelieve but most importantly let me tell you that the Libyans I met were all very friendly, welcoming, warmhearted and dignified people and I hope that hopefully soon Tripoli will be home again...this time being allowed to say what ever I want.. insallah

Tara if Libya .."is ranked only 5th in terms of best economy, ranking 63rd world....." it is G and his loyalist wealth not Libyans.

If you ask ordinary Libyan he will tell you that Libya is among the most undeveloped countries in the world.This is how they see their country. They used to joke that Libya does not fit even in the Third World Countries.

I already wrote that there are no public service in Libya...we have old barrels for garbage...very, very rare you can find small bin in the streets... It is unbeliveable how Libyans cities are dirty.

G has destroyed everything in this country: education, health, economy....

Great Man Made River is joke....every summer we have problem with water supply...we have huge containers for spare water - one down and the other on the roof as sometimes there is no water for days. We used to buy it ..big cars with water circulate thorug Benghazi and people buy water and fill theirs containers.

I am not talking about situation after 17 Feb....

I remeber that 20 years back he had idea to close elemenatry school till 6th grade...and mother to teach the children..he cancell study of foreign languages, stop any sport activity....etc.

Just few years back my husband has a decent salary. Can you imagine, a doctor with PHD in medicine has less salary than a nurse from any other country ?

Libyan women has a right only for 3 months sick leave after giving birth to a baby....
I wish there are more Libyans on blog to help me to make you understand how G made Libyan's life miserable.

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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
46. Ah well, another earthly paradise bites the dust!
I've read that a similar character, Pol Pot, once ran an wonderful and completely egalitarian paradise in Cambodia.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-24-11 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
48. But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads....
the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
- People's Front of Judea (or the Judean People's Front?), Monty Python's, "Life of Brian"

TlalocW
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