As God as my witness....Can an Atheist say that?--- I will never again fly Southwest Airlines.

[trumad]

The humiliation they cause customers is simply to much.

Proof:
http://mobile.sun-sentinel.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=1039992&postId=1039992&postUserId=42&sessionToken=&catId=6556&curAbsIndex=0&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A42%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ%3DsectionId%253A6556%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D5

[uponit7771]

1. I'll take them over Delta any day, Delta is so bad....wow...they're CONSISTENTLY aweful

[MADem]

31. I recently flew DELTA and can't praise 'em enough. Great FAs, and

really top-notch gate agents. Very painless flights.

I do realize that everyone has differing experiences, though.

[B2G]

45. I love Delta...

US Airways sucks ass however.

[JCMach1]

219. Delta is pretty good... let's discuss Lufthansa, or American...

Some of the WORST transatlantic flights I have taken...

[blueamy66]

224. American is the bomb

nt...sorry you had a bad experience....I've not had one

[JCMach1]

247. Staff is good, everything else....

[blueamy66]

257. Yeah, the staff is good.

But the stories I could tell you... :-)

[ScreamingMeemie]

277. Thank you! My beloved (I've adopted him as a member of our family)

friend is a flight attendant for Delta. He takes a lot of pride in what he does. :)

[Fuddnik]

66. Fuck Delta!

I had a flight to DC scheduled for Oct 5th to participate in the Occupation.

I got a call on Oct 4th, that my father was hospitalized in SC with a possible stroke.Needless to say, I had to postpone the flight. Delta hit me with a $200 "change" fee for no other reason, than they can.

So, out of a $289 ticket they offered to give me a $89 credit to be used within one year. I asked their "customer service" department if they were really so delusional to think that I would ever even consider booking with them again, after they picked my pocket for $200 for a family medical emergency. I also told them that they really didn't need me to tell them where to stick the remaining $89. If I have to, I'll fly into Baltimore and walk to DC.

[CTyankee]

256. I have to say that internationally, I had a great experience on my flight from Amsterdam

to JFK. I flew their "partner" airline, KLM, over and had an uncomfortably crowded ride. Coming back, the Delta airbus had more legroom, which made a big difference.

[geardaddy]

281. Delta

Dont
Expect
Luggage
To
Arrive

[Manifestor_of_Light]

2. Fat people need to have two seats.

I've been squeezed next to someone who spilled over the armrests and it was most unpleasant.

Acting like there is no problem with a person who is bigger than one seat is no solution.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snooper2]

11. Or even better, you can check out her YouTube Vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVH4RMcLB20

[MADem]

33. She's obese. That's pretty obvious. She probably couldn't fit between the armrests of

those Southwest seats. She'd have been better off just buying the two seats in the first place and giving herself a bit of room, rather than complaining about being singled out because she actually was too big for the chair, even if her relatives consented to being squished. That airline is Greyhound cheap anyway.

The airlines do need to get with the program, and go back to the old sized seats (pre-deregulation). Those were the size of first class seats nowadays. If not that, get rid of the eighteen inch standard and go to the 22 inch. Of course, that means fewer sardines in the can, but I think everyone would pay an extra ten or twenty bucks for the simple comfort of a generous seat and a spare inch or two of leg room.

[Ken Burch]

48. At the very minimum, the airline could at least make it a reduced price for the second seat

It would be enough, in this case, to charge an extra 50$ or so. And there HAS to be a way of dealing with this WITHOUT publicly humiliating paying customers. There just has to be.

It's not a moral disgrace to have a weight problem, for God's sake.

[Missy Vixen]

61. In America, it certainly is

>It's not a moral disgrace to have a weight problem, for God's sake.<

How dare those fat people have business or personal reasons to fly in the first place?!??!

[idiotgardener]

69. They do.

http://www.southwest.com/html/generated/help/faqs/extra_seat_policy_faq.html

If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.

[Missy Vixen]

60. She bought the second seat

If you read the article, you would have also noted that the airline RESEATED ANOTHER PASSENGER in the second seat she was required to purchase.

I have been mentioning this little fact on DU for years now: As a fat person, you are required to buy the second seat, but the airline reserves the right to seat another passenger in it. It is in the small print on airline tickets.

Sooooo, it's not enough to embarrass someone who's fat. It's nothing to do with "safety" or "inconvenience", either.

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

62. You've found the truth, then. This was NEVER about passenger comfort

It was just an extortion racket.

[MADem]

80. Well, the airline should not do that. The fat person should put one cheek on one seat

and the other cheek on the other! OR...they should only charge 'em for the "percentage of seat" that they use, if they seat someone beside them.

How can you embarrass someone who's fat for being fat, it's not like they aren't aware of their condition.

[Ken Burch]

86. People with weight problems are often painfully aware of it.

It's like being in school, and having something different about you...maybe you were the kid with glasses, maybe you weren't good at sports, maybe you didn't wear the coolest clothes...and the others NEVER let you forget it.

It's like that. And no one SHOULD be treated like that in a decent society.

You have a hell of a lot to learn about how to treat people, if your posts here are any indication.

MOST of us have something about ourselves that we hate having referenced in public. Therefore, we should all be careful and just, plain, simply put, not humiliate anyone.

Is that too much to ask?

[MADem]

94. Is it too much to ask, if you are painfully aware that you are fat,

to order the extra seat so you aren't singled out, or sitting UPON a passenger/stranger who has paid full fare for their seat, as well?

You have one helluva nerve lecturing me about not humiliating people, when you're essentially saying "Don't make the fat person feel bad, fuck the guy next to him getting squished, because the poor fat guy is somehow MORE IMPORTANT because they're fat and GAWD forbid we should hurt the fat guy's FEEEEEELINGS." Take charge of your own life, if you're fat, and be responsible and plan ahead.

You don't want to be "humiliated?" You are "painfully aware" of your size? Well, ACCOMMODATE yourself. Either spend the money for First Class, or buy two seats. You don't buy size two pants if you need the size 22, now do you? Why think you can only pay for a single seat when you need more than that, and spill over onto the seat of someone else who has paid full price for their seat? Now THAT, to me, is "nerve." It's also RUDE, particularly when anyone who has not been living in a cave is aware of these policies. Know before you go, and don't sit on the person next to you. That's not "polite" either.

[Ken Burch]

113. And you are assuming that people who are heavy are rich, for some reason

In some cases, they are among the poorest of us. It may have been all they could do to scrape together the money for the one seat, perhaps they're traveling for a family emergency.

You can't just assume that they're loaded with cash-why assume that when you wouldn't about anyone ELSE on the plane?

(for myself, while I am heavier than some, I've never actually been asked to buy a second seat. My own size is irrelevant to this discussion. It's not as if all thin people would agree with YOU.)

[MADem]

116. Why should the people they are crushing be forced to subsidize their travel?

You're assuming the skinny person getting smooshed is rich, apparently, and that they'll cheerfully accept not getting what they paid for.

Do fat people buy size two underwear and expect it to fit? Why no. They therefore should not buy a size SML "seat" and expect it to somehow, magically, expand to 3X.

You want more room? Buy it. Otherwise, GO GREYHOUND, arrive early, and sit on the back bench.

[Tsiyu]

250. She bought the seat

they seated someone else in the seat she paid for, as they reserve the right to do


maybe you missed that upthread

[MADem]

251. No, I didn't miss it at all.

Unless things have changed, she didn't pay full fare for the seat, and the airline reserves the right to use the seat if they need it--that's in their regs. They won't put a fare paying passenger in it, because it's not comfortable for them and it would be "double billing," but they might put a non-rev (deadheading aircrew, for example, or a family member of a SW employee) because they don't pay for their seat--ergo, there's no double-charging going on.

As I said elsewhere, if she paid full price for the seat, no one else should be in it; but if she's paying a discounted amount then the airline has a bit more latitude as to what they do with the space.

[Goblinmonger]

120. My son is a sophomore in high school

6 foot and will wrestle 182 in 4 weeks. His shoulders are HUGE. They are easily 20 inches across. He will spill into the seat next him. Should he have to pay extra or is it just the fat people? Those seats are ridiculously tiny.

[Ken Burch]

127. Excellent question.

Also, do they require professional bodybuilders to buy extra seats? They would spill over as well.

Most people, in my experience, no matter what the size, spill over the airline seats in coach.

[MADem]

156. He should probably pay extra if he flies SW.

He might be able to get away with it if he is narrow in the ass and they put someone short next to him who isn't impacted by his shoulder size.

[Goblinmonger]

171. Well, frankly, that's bullshit.

I'm obese. Not so big I don't fit in-between the arm rests on an airplane, but I get it. It sucks sitting next to me.

But if we have airlines that are going to charge someone that is just genetically big in the shoulders (he is very lean and muscular at 185), then there are problems. 32" pants are loose on him and will be even more loose now that wrestling is firing up. It sucks to hear the "then eat less" arguments on here but, again, I get it. But what, he's supposed to lift fewer weights? Do fewer pushups and pull ups? Change his DNA (he gets the typical eastern european barrel chest from me and some really broad shoulders from mom's side of the family)? At some point, it comes back to the airlines being screwed up.

[MADem]

184. If his shoulders don't exceed the width of the seat back plus the space

taken up by the armrests and the bit of space between the seats, he'll be OK.

Measure him across the back--if he's twenty inches he'll probably make it.


Look, if you are a skinny little thing, and you buy clothing, there's one price for what you buy. If you're larger, the price goes up, too.

This is NOT a one size/fits all world. Bigger people take up more room and use more stuff--be it food, clothing, whatever. That's just reality.

Basketball players fly first class for the leg room alone. So do other tall people. Yeah, it sucks, but life sucks sometimes, and is not always fair.

This is the generation of entitlement, though. Everyone thinks they can be the sports hero, the ballerina, the American Idol star simply because they WANT it and their parents have never explained reality to them. All people may be created equal, but you gotta pay for what you use. And if you use more than is allotted to you, to the detriment of your neighbor, that just is not right. This whole "fairness" thing seems to be all about the big people, and not about the people they are crushing.

That tall kid doesn't pay the same price for his clothes as the skinny little kid, so why should he pay the same price for his airline seat?

Pay for what you use.

[Goblinmonger]

I understand a lot of what you are saying.

But something (perhaps off topic though related to what you said) does kind of piss me off. I pay $2 or so extra for clothes (I currently wear a 2X though will soon be in an XL). OK. I get it. More fabric. My daughter (who is 5'8" and a buck twenty) wears small and extra small. Why doesn't she pay $2 less? And there are plenty of people smaller than her. If the price for 2XL means more fabric than a M, then XS should mean less fabric.

And "crushing" is a little hyperbolic. But I understand your point. What about stupid people? If I am stuck in line behind someone too stupid to use the self-checkout lane, should they pay more for their food because they are taking my time by being too dumb to run a scanner?

[MADem]

195. I do not know this for a fact, but I am guessing that the reduced amount

of fabric for a small garment is probably not as much in terms of savings as the cost of additional fabric for a larger person. Plus, the amount of sewing and detail work is probably pretty much the same for the small garment; there will surely be a bit more sewing as well as fabric for the larger person. It could also have to do with patternmaking--but I'm no expert in the field, so that's just supposition.

As for stupid people, well, we all know that you can't fix stupid! You can walk away from it, though.

I'm no skinny balink, I'd like a larger airplane seat too, and more leg room. However, I have been CRUSHED between two massive people who were travelling together and took the window and aisle seat. I, poor fool, booked late and was stuck in the middle from coast to coast. It was HELL. The FA took pity on me and moved me after a stop at the halfway mark where a seat was freed up, but it just wasn't "on." I didn't get a fair shake. It was preferable to be forced to sit bolt upright in the back row, though, unable to recline, than to be squeezed between two people who were so big the armrests disappeared into the folds of their bodies when they pulled them down for takeoff.

[Drahthaardogs]

209. But there are no options.

As a large bodybuilder I would gladly purchase a larger seat if that option existed.

[MADem]

217. You simply purchase two seats, that's how SW plays it.

If not on SW, shed a tear and spend the extra money on business/first class.

[Drahthaardogs]

221. Why should I do that if they reserve the right to use the empty seat for another passenger?

That sounds like an idiotic move on my part

[MADem]

243. You need to select another airline, then. It's not like they make this a secret.

It's part of their policy, and if you know it/don't like it, use your consumer power and shop elsewhere. Other airlines do have Business/First Class and there's way more room up that way.

The airline is balancing the comfort of paying passengers against the needs of their workforce in this instance. Non-revs do not pay, but they do have to get to work for their own benefit and the benefit of the airline, so they will be the ones to endure being squeezed--not a paying passenger. Also, if a large individual is buying a 2nd seat, they aren't paying full fare for it. They're paying the kid's rate.

I suppose if you paid full price for the 2nd seat you could insist that you need all of it, but that's not what is happening on SW to my understanding.

[Demonaut]

192. I'm 5.8, my shoulders are 19-20" s across and I barely fit in the new seats

at least the seat backs, if I sit next to someone who is overweight or also has broad shoulders we always press into each other...the seats are just too small nowadays.

[MH1]

283. Also, 'they' don't 'put' someone next to him.

Pay the extra $10 for early check in so he'll be near the front of the line boarding. He'll get his pick of seats and it's unlikely another large person will try to sit next to him. If he sits on the aisle he's sure to be fine. He probably wouldn't have a problem anyway, as MaDem says.

(On Southwest you pick your own seat, there are no assigned seats, for 'economy' class anyway. Check in as early as possible and you get near the front of the line to board and it's not hard to get a good seat.)

[panzerfaust]

204. This makes too much sense.

How about the rest of us are not forced to pay to get all warm and cuddly ...

[Missy Vixen]

269. You're really going there?

>How can you embarrass someone who's fat for being fat, it's not like they aren't aware of their condition.<

Hmmm. Let's see here. Do you have a large nose, ears that stick out, terrible psoriasis, or any other physical condition that has caused massive embarrassment at one time or another in your life? How about I sit in my two airline seats and berate you for it? After all, it's not like you don't know, right? It's open season.

How about guys who have a small penis? They're out there. Maybe women should point and laugh while they walk down the street, too. They know, don't they? Why shouldn't everyone else know about it, too? After all, they're just being "honest".

This is not junior high. Name calling and shaming others is not an adult behavior. If you think it is, perhaps you need to examine your own behavior. You'll go to any length to defend your opinion, despite the fact that it's wrong.

Seeing as how airlines are reserving the right to reseat other passengers in the second seat a fat person bought as the result of being told to do so, it's not a policy for "safety" or "inconvenience". It's a policy to line someone else's pocket. When the policy is administered due to fairness instead of bigotry, we'll talk.

[MADem]

274. Let's get real here. No one is forced to pay additional money for having a big nose.

If there was a Big Nose surcharge, and I had one, I'd pay it ahead of time so the Gate Agent wasn't forced to bring it up. I wouldn't show up hoping that I could get away with it, and no one would notice, particularly if my Big Nose extended onto someone else's seat, interfered with their comfort, and made their flight a living hell.

And all your other examples? They don't, generally speaking, impact others on an airplane the way someone SITTING on them for eight hours might. That small penis in the next seat? So what? Unless you're planning on having intercourse with it, how does it affect you? The psoriasis? Avert your eyes, don't like it, don't look. But when someone is SITTING ON YOU, pushing you against the bulkhead or into the aisle, spilling over into your "paid for" personal space, you can't ignore it. It's ON YOU. It's uncomfortable, sometimes to the point of pain.

It is simply unreasonable to ask the people who fit in the seat to "eat it" and subsidize the people who don't fit. If you need a larger size, BUY IT.

It is not "name calling" to say "Don't SIT ON ME." There's nothing "junior high" about expecting to get what you paid for. You'd think that anyone of size would be the first to understand, as they don't like to be "inconvenienced," that they should do likewise and not inconvenience others by taking something--the space someone paid for on a plane--that is not theirs.

Bottom line--the people who fit in those seats are no richer nor poorer than the ones who don't....but the difference is, the people who aren't spilling over onto other passengers are able to fit in the space for which they paid. If a person can't fit in that space, they simply need to suck it up, be adult, understand what needs to be done, and buy more space--not expect the rest of the plane to subsidize their excess weight. They can do that by getting a seat in First Class, if the airline has such a thing, or they can buy two seats.

You don't put a family of 12 in a studio apartment, now, do you? So why in the world do you think that, because of "embarrassment," people should shut up and let that large person have half the seat that THEY paid for? That's simply UNREASONABLE, and it's why airlines have "fit in your seat" policies. You think the seats are too small? Take that up with the airline, not the flight crew, and certainly not the customers who have bought a seat that fits-- and good luck--they'll tell you what I have said--buy a bigger seat.

And ONE MORE TIME--if you don't like the SW policy of putting non-revs in the seats that the fat person paid a REDUCED rate for, then don't patronize them. See? Your problem is SOLVED. Mo one puts a gun to your head and demands that you patronize SW.

I will never think it is "OK" for someone to sit on me from NYC to Rome, or Honolulu to Tokyo, or even puddle jumping within a region for a short hop. If that means that I am "mean to fat people," or "shaming" or any of your other silly words that don't address the "taking more resources than one paid for" issue, I can totally live with that. When you address the fact that people are using space they haven't paid for, and expect people who DID pay to shut up about it and endure serious discomfort through no fault of their own, then maybe we'll talk.

Until then, cry me a river, bluntly. Pay for the space you take up. Do that, and I could care less how big you are.

[Drahthaardogs]

205. That is wrong. She bought the seat, it was hers. What gives them the right to seat someone there?

For that matter, what about the poor person that they sat next to them? Another double standard, I am a big man, not overly tall, but I naturally heavily muscled and then years of powerlifting left me with a huge frame, and I tip the scales at 275 lbs. I never have to buy two seats though because my waist is not large and I do not have a large belly, so the belt always buckles easily with plenty of room. My shoulders however, spill onto the seat next to me, or about 1/3 out into the isle if I am on a the end. I have never been asked to buy another seat, but I do feel sorry for the folks who sit next to me and would do it if asked.

[MADem]

218. I am betting that they put a non-rev in the seat.

Non-revs (non revenue passengers) are people (family members of airline workers, e.g.) using their airline bennies, or commuters (flight attendants and pilots often live in places other than their "base" and they commute to work. Some have a commuter apartment shared w/ten or more people, which is basically a crash pad between assignments). Non-revs can fly free, but they also can't squawk about being squished, put in a jumpseat (FAs or pilots only--not family members), or put in one of those crappy upright bulkhead seats in the back of the plane. You get what you get, and you are expected to shut up and not cause trouble.

The person buying the seat gets it at a reduced rate (the child fare, generally) and they are free to squish the non-rev till the cows come home. They are also told that the airline might use the seat. The non-rev getting squished has the option of not flying--but then, maybe, they'll miss work or miss getting home for Junior's piano recital, so generally, they smile and shut up and deal.

It's spelled out in their ticket policies--probably in small print, most likely.

If you're not a frequent pee-er and can stand to sit tight for your flights (assuming they aren't too long) you'd probably feel more comfortable by the window. That tiny bit of extra room and the ability to lean against the damn bulkhead is helpful in reducing one's footprint in the small space.

[blueamy66]

225. Oh please...I flew non rev for most of my life

So, just because my Dad worked for 40+ years for an airline I should have to be squished between two fat people?

OMG....fail

[MADem]

242. You are still no expert, then. Actually....YES. Not "OMG...fail"--not at all.

You're way down in the pecking order, dear, if you're riding on your daddy's pass--a pilot needing to get to work with one seat available will squish in and shut up. Don't believe me, though--do some homework. Look it up.

[blueamy66]

258. Yeah, I am an expert. Flew on AA for soooooo many years...

And don't call me dear.

So, because my Dad worked his ass off for 40+ years you have to slam me?

I don't need to do any homework. I have better things to do, sorry.

A pilot would rather sit in the jump seat than sit between 2 big people taking his/her space. Trust me, I know alot of them.....the stories they could tell.....

[MADem]

259. Who's slamming?

A pilot will sit where a pilot is assigned a seat by the gate agent. Sometimes, the jumps are full, with people who have higher priority. That 20 year Captain isn't going to step aside for junior with three years on the payroll. In that case, he gets the squeezebox.

And first priority for the jumps always go to the crew, not the deadheaders. Sometimes, there's only one, maybe two, to spare.

[blueamy66]

260. "on my Daddy's pass" isn't a slam?

nt

[MADem]

263. No--it's a fact, apparently--one that YOU offered up.

Flying on Pa's pass back in the day doesn't make you a pilot. Or a gate agent. Or a FA.

You might want to talk to some of these people -- 99 percenters, all of them, even the pilots these days--to get a sense of how stressful their jobs are. Don't rely on ancient history--that doesn't play in today's airline environment. They aren't having the times of their lives, raking in great salaries. They're just doing the best they can and trying to keep it all together, while enforcing rules NOT of their making, but mandated by the people who pay them and demand pay cuts and concessions from them every other year.

The ire here is, as happens with alarming frequency, misdirected at "evil" workers when the fact of the matter is that customers simply do not want to pay MORE. They would prefer to pay LESS. Something's gotta give when that's the case. That's why, if you want a sandwich on a flight in many cases, it'll cost you five or six bucks, and have your credit card ready. Same deal with headphones--unless you brought your own. That's not the fault of the FA, it's factored into the ticket price.

[blueamy66]

272. okay

I still speak to pilots all the time.

I'll bring this up to them at our next Happy Hour.

[blueamy66]

261. and most pilots won't sit where a gate agent puts them

My Dad supervised gate agents.

Maybe things are different these days, but back in the 70s and 89s....whoa....talk about profiling and letting anyone down the ramps and into the airplanes...

[MADem]

262. They likely are different. Back then, planes flew half empty.

Now, they're packed to the rafters, unless you're flying a real red eye that is going mainly to get a plane positioned properly for a flight the following day. Even at that, plenty of the red eyes fill up because that's where the real bargain fares can be found.

[blueamy66]

266. That is true.

I used to fly the red eye so I could get on the damn plane. Went to see my guy in NC all the time on non rev passes.....it was a crap shoot....finally decided to just pay for a freaking ticket on Delta or whatever....loved to have a seat assignment before I left my house...still LOVE AA

[Politicub]

264. Yes, I think you should be. Just because your dad

Worked 40 years for an airline doesn't make you special.

[blueamy66]

271. when did I say I was special?

Just cause I love AA?

Get a grip,,,

[blueamy66]

276. And now I've decided that I am special

Because my Dad worked his ass off for his family for over 40 years

He was awesome....gone for over 7 years now.....sorry if your parents weren't as great as mine

[RobinA]

287. So, In Essence

you have to by the second seat but it might not be adjacent to first seat? Classic!!!

[soleft]

5. So why don't you say large people, incuding football players

and other tall, broad shouldered people. I sat next to a guy once who was 6 six with very broad shoulders and was very uncomfortable.

[Drahthaardogs]

206. If you are football type build your belt buckle still works easily.

The rule is, if you need an extension, you need another seat on most airlines. Some say it is when you need the second extension that you need another seat.

[Ken Burch]

6. The airlines need to make bigger seats and stop trying to squeeze too many people into a small space

It's the airlines' fault, not the passengers.

And I think you just told us what sort of person you were in junior high with that post.

Not a lot_of_light manifested there, buddy.

[uppityperson]

17. +1000. Get rid of sardine seating and make it more comfortable for all. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. You don't know what I was like in junior high, buddy yourself.

They need to make bigger seats.

And until they make bigger seats, they need to make a fat person buy two seats to fit in.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[REP]

44. Afuckingmen

:thumbsup: to you.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Amen!

I didn't fly at all between 1993 and 1999, and even though my height and weight had not changed between those years, I was astonished to find out how much airline seating had shrunk.

I was never conscious of being uncomfortable in an airline seat before 1993. But in 1999, all of a sudden the seats were tiny and crammed together like nothing I had experienced since a Chinese domestic flight in 1990.

I'd be happy to pay more for roomier seating. In fact, I do. I fly United when I can and pay extra for their Economy Plus section.

[Major Nikon]

63. I don't believe that's a very good idea

Only 3% of the population is considered morbidly obese, and even some people who would be considered morbidly obese can still fit between the armrests. So you're only talking about 1-1.5% of the population in the first place.

Wider seats means less seats per row, which means everyone on the flight will pay proportionately more. A 737-300 has 6 seats across in coach. One less seat means everyone else in coach pays 20% more. A MD80 has 5 seats across in coach. One less seat means everyone else in coach pays 25% more.

Effectively you're proposing the vast majority of air travelers pay more because of a very small minority.

[Ken Burch]

67. They could make 3% of the seats bigger, then, and seat larger passengers in THOSE seats.

There HAS to be some way of dealing with this problem besides publicly humiliating paying passengers(and shaking them down for extra money).

And the fact that, as another poster pointed out, they SEATED another passenger in the second seat this woman was forced to buy PROVES that Southwest doesn't give a damn about passenger comfort.

[pitohui]

81. they already make 3% of the seats bigger, that would be called first class

unfortunately the type of person who flies southwest is too cheap to pay for the seat they need, this is why we're having this discussion in the first place

there are too many cheap bastards out there who don't want to pay for what they need, they would rather steal it -- everyone knows southwest doesn't have a first class, so they are making an intentional choice to have an excuse for not purchasing the proper sized seat

the last time i flew southwest, a 400 lb woman sat in the middle seat and, really, she mostly sat on me, in my seat...that is stealing from me, i paid the same price for my ticket as anybody else and i am entitled not to be sat on

unwanted touching is a sex crime anywhere else except the airport and the airplane, and i'm not sure why

if you are a POS, be honest with yourself and be honest with others, thou shalt not steal, sitting on someone else is stealing what belongs to them

[Ken Burch]

93. You're assuming that POS(nice abbreviation there...not!)are "cheap"

In a lot of cases, they're poor. In this country, there's often a correlation between weight and class-the wealthiest are the thinnest.

There's a hell of a lot of unjustified hostility in your post.

You don't know the people who are heavier than you. You don't know why they're that way, or IF there's anything they could do about it(or if they're trying desperately to do something about it).

It's simple...in a decent society, no one who isn't a violent criminal or a sex offender should ever be humiliated or stripped of their dignity.

Any time you assume that some have the right to treat others with disdain and disrespect, you accept something that is damaging to all of us.

[uppityperson]

110. Posts like this remind me why I try to avoid your posts. Not all unwanted touching is a "sex crime"

People flying SW are "too cheap to pay for the seat they need"? ALL of them? Wow. "if you are a POS", how sweet you are. You are quite an addition to DU.

[uppityperson]

107. Simply "fitting between the armrests" is horrendous for many of us.

some planes now have 6 seats/row when they used to have 5. Are we being charged less since this change? Nope. We are simply stuck into sardine seats, and no, I am not obese. But I am very uncomfortable flying and hate paying more when they keep shoving more and more seats into the same space.

[Ken Burch]

114. Southwest could, in theory, hit MOST OF ITS PASSENGERS with this

Don't assume they'll always let it go at shaking down the larger ones.

[Angleae]

252. Those seats have been the same size since the 707 first flew.

Legroom is less but that's not the problem for someone who can't fit into the seat in the first place.

[LanternWaste]

10. Same thing happened to me too...

Same thing happened to me too.

But in the grand scheme of things, it was less an unpleasant problem than it was merely an minor inconvenience-- I still arrived where ,and when, and how I was suppose to. None of my plans were disrupted, and the only tell-tale sign from it all was my that my foot had gone to sleep.

At the time, I merely chuckled about it. In there here and now, I still merely chuckle about it. However I do realize we often expand the size of a problem to better suit our sense of drama and self-serving desires for convenience and comfort in this world. I'd guess it's part of the human experience.

[idiotgardener]

72. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

Some people are mildly claustrophobic or have other issues that would make the situation extremely unpleasant. It doesn't make them drama queens.

[pitohui]

84. what if your foot gone to sleep was a blood clot?

what if you quietly laid down and died within 48 hours as a result of being cramped?

i realize DVT is pretty rare in men and they're the ones who design airplanes, so they don't care, but DVT kills

i've met several women now in their 20s (one of them tiny) who had blood clots and the tiny one nearly died

immobility KILLS, and numbness in your foot is not a joke

maybe you don't care about your health, but i care about mine, and the fat person sitting on my foot doesn't pay my medical bills and they have no right to steal my health and comfort from me

[Ken Burch]

97. Stop using the word "stealing"

It's totally inappropriate here. In a lot of cases, people can't afford the second seat(I don't know why there seems to be this assumption that heavier people are all millionaires or something).

And if, as happened in this case, the airline SEATED ANOTHER PERSON in the second seat they made the overweight passenger buy, that's an admission that the policy was never about passenger comfort at all...it's just a shakedown.

[MADem]

Depends on who is in the seat, though--if it's a non-rev pax, they could

be told in advance that it's going to be a bummer, but too bad.

Lots of non-rev pax on flights every day; flight attendants/pilots/gate personnel commuting to work, for example, or deadheading back from an assignment. There are limited numbers of jump seats. These people, as well as family members using their airline benefits, are often crammed into spare seats on a Space Available basis.

It's perfectly acceptable to tell a non-rev to suck it up and sit in the "uncomfortable" seat, because they are flying for free, anyway, and have no station to complain. It's not acceptable to tell a paying passenger that they have to endure sitting in a seat that is half taken up by their neighbor.

[uppityperson]

162. If you are so concerned, why don't you get a seat big enough to not be cramped in?

Let's put the responsibility for YOUR comfort on YOU. Rather than complaining about a "fat person sitting on my foot" (and what the hell is your foot doing on their seat anyway?) how about you simply pay for a non-sardine seat yourself?

[Mimosa]

230. A blood clot happened to my sister who was a frequent flyer as a teaching tech

Sis was not overweight. She was seriously stressed from flying on business 3 days every week. She nearly died. Had a thrombosis happen after a flight.

Her doctors told her if she kept it up she'd die.

[kctim]

13. ABSOLUTELY!!!

And not by the window.

[Divine Discontent]

122. not too much light coming from the nasty tone of your post title. you DO acknowledge there are

human beings who are larger than the average person who happen to be big on muscle, or fat, or just really tall and therefore could be wide, say like a football player or wrestler. Regardless of calling them, "fat", I think your post is a nasty attack on people who have either a problem controlling their weight through their own fault, or no fault of their own (genetics, med problems, being poor, yes being poor results in higher obesity rates), and for many here your insult is about like calling someone of a certain faith, color, sexuality, gender or such, a nasty name. You should consider apologizing.

I am 5 11 and 215 and easily fit in everything with room to spare, just so you know I'm not a FAT person, as you like to say. By the way, if you were in front of me and said that about someone I would call you out for it. I think it's quite immature when people mock my friends/family/coworkers as being "fat".

[MADem]

129. I have to defend the use of the term FAT. The "FAT ACCEPTANCE SOCIETY" uses it.

Why do you regard it as an insult when they plainly have no problem with it? You might want to recheck your own POV regarding the term instead of demanding apologies. Fat is fat, and if you are not fat, fine....but people who ARE fat have no problem, apparently, with the word--at least the fat people who are members of the aforementioned group:

http://www.naafaonline.com/dev2/

[Divine Discontent]

132. and in every type of situation there are people who think its okay to use the 'n' word or call each

other the 'f' word for gay people that ends with a 't', it's about maturity. And the mature people I associate with (professors, nurses, doctors, writers) exclusively say overweight, obese, or big. Fat is a name-calling taunt kids say. I don't listen to fringe groups within any type of group who say it's okay to call us fill-in-the-blank. Yes, it's just a word, but it's used derisively when describing people. To make this story even worse, and his "fat" comment even more inappropriate, the passenger was not so obese she couldn't fly by their rules, and they've apologized. She was larger than average, yes, but clearly able to fly since they let her fly the first time.

[MADem]

145. Are you saying that the Fat Acceptance people are using the FAT word like the N word?

It's not the same.

Giving someone a big long "title" like "overweight" or "obese" doesn't change the fact that the person is fat. Fat is a simple word, it's descriptive, it leaves no question about what it means--which is probably why those Fat Acceptance people, with their lobbying and outreach efforts, like the word.

I also don't know how "fringe" they are--they have a large (no pun intended) membership and appear to be growing (again, no pun intended).

[Divine Discontent]

146. you are fired up over this thread MADem! LOL you have 8 of the 10 posts with fat in the title.

No, I'm not saying it's the same, however, it's immature. And, I don't know about you, but I don't consider "obese" a "long title".

:)

[MADem]

148. Everyone over the age of two knows what "FAT" means.

There are some rockheaded adults who don't know the meaning of the word "OBESE."

I'm not especially fired up, I just don't think that people should be sitting on top of you because they are too plump, too musclebound, too gigantic--name your favorite word-- for their seat and they won't pay for what they are using. It's not fair to the person who has paid for their seat, is filling it, and is now expected to be crushed, uncomplaining, against the bulkhead and be forced to share what little space they have with a quarter of some stranger's ass.

We're talking fairness here? Let's be fair to that person, too. Pay your way. That means, if you need two, buy two.

[Dover]

270. Airline seats have gotten smaller and Americans have gotten bigger.

Not a working plan. The airlines are ridiculously unfriendly and uncomfortable these days. It seems like someone
dared them to play the antagonist and they took on the role with relish.

Just drive or take the bus or train when possible.

[Ken Burch]

4. They need to get rid of the damn "Customer of Size" policy.

Everyone has a basic right to NOT be publicly humiliated over their weight-that's just simply freaking human decency.

[Rabblevox]

16. and I would counter that anyone paying $500 for a flight has a right...

to not be squeezed by a morbidly obese person who is spilling out of their seat.

I give SW a "pass" on this one, they acknowledged that the policy had been incorrectly applied and gave her a full refund.

[Ken Burch]

18. They always do that AFTER they inflict the public humiliation.

They could just make the damn seats larger, you know.

[idiotgardener]

29. Then the prices would go up

and people would complain about that.

It's really a no-win situation for the airlines, and SWA has a much better safety record and customer satisfaction record than most.

[JDPriestly]

53. No one has the right to be overweight.

And unless your obesity is a physical disability, no one has to treat you like everyone else because you are overweight.

There is no federal law that I am aware of against discrimination due to obesity unless the obesity is due to some sort of physical disability.

[Ken Burch]

57. You do have the right, at the very least, to NOT be humiliated by strangers

And, in a situation like this, there's no way for the people around a person like this to KNOW why that person might be heavier.

You can't just ASSUME that the person is a glutton. There are many, many reasons a person can gain weight, many of which are not within the control of that person.

And, in a decent society, you don't assume that you have the right to belittle other people. We're supposed to be better than that.

And, if you look at yourself honestly, you'd have to admit that you must have faults that are at least as bad, if not worse, than being overweight. Everyone does.

It sounds like you're defending your Royal Prerogative to be an arrogant, insensitive jerk. Please don't lower yourself to treating other people that way...it's no way to make this a good world. No one is made better by being debased or publicly embarrased...and treating people like that is supposed to be something only the Right does.

[JDPriestly]

198. Hey. I'm short. It is a huge disadvantage especially. It was a tremendous

disadvantage in my work in which tall people tend to do better although height is, theoretically, not relevant. I can't demand an equal opportunity for being short. I'm not allowed to keep my bag under my feet on the plane even though it would be far better for my back.

On an airplane, one size fits all, and if you aren't that size, it's too bad for you. If you are the average size, there is no problem, but if you are very small or very large, it's tough.

[Mimosa]

231. I'm average and i can't 'move' around in those small seats.

They make my back hurt and eventually my muscles will cramp up and spasm without movement.

[dana_b]

273. me too, Mimosa

I have a bad back and sitting there on a four hour flight to Chicago almost sent me over the edge. Needless to say, I haven't been on that long of a flight in a looong time.

[NutmegYankee]

58. And there is no federal law banning discrimination based on sexual orientation.

So you feel discrimination is OK just because it isn't against the law? How charming...

[MADem]

87. If one's conduct creates the issue, it's not the job of the public to "accomodate" or not

discriminate. What, we're supposed to bend over backwards/pretend not to notice for a meth head because they have a "condition" that they, themselves, created?

Sexual orientation isn't the same as obesity--you can (medical issues excepted) change the latter "condition," through diet and exercise, but the former one is part and parcel of your being. All the diet and exercise (or praying away the gay) in the world isn't going to make Ricky Martin or k.d. laing straight.

Bad analogy on your part, comparing the GLBT community to fat people.

[Ken Burch]

90. And comparing people who are overweight to tweakers is a GOOD analogy?

News flash: weight isn't always a result of "conduct"-and the airline doesn't ever ASK why a person weighs what they do.

[MADem]

96. They're both ADDICTIVE behaviors--way closer than comparing addicts (of food or meth)

to gay people.

The only difference between food addicts and meth heads is the drug of choice.

[Ken Burch]

126. I wasn't endorsing the comparison of addicts to gays, for the record.

And not all weight issues are caused by food addiction.

The airline doesn't ask, as far as I know, WHY a person might be heavier.

[MADem]

138. Well, you probably shouldn't have compared discrimination of gays to fat discrimination, then.

I wouldn't be surprised if the airlines would waive the extra seat fee with a doctor's note. They are very accommodating to people in wheelchairs; they allow people who need to bring medicines to have an extra bag aboard, or bring an additional item (K walker/canes/that kind of stuff).

But let's be blunt, here--an ADA fat person is a different set of circumstances than someone who is just fat because they don't exercise and/or eat too much. I suppose the proof would be in the ability of the person to present a doctor's note.

[Ken Burch]

140. You're assuming that everyone can AFFORD a doctor's appointment.

If a person is flying Southwest, it may be because they can't afford to fly anywhere else.

The real issue is with the arrogant, greed-driven decision of the airline industry to make the seats as small as possible...it's a corporate issue, not a personal weakness issue.

[MADem]

142. If you're that poor and fat due to a medical condition, you don't need an appointment.

You will be on medicare. You can simply call your doctor's office and tell him/her you need a travel note that documents that your obesity is an ADA issue, a "disability" as a consequence of a medical conditon. Your doctor will already know your medical history and mail you that note--IF that's the truth of your situation. I have a relative who got a doctor's note about jury duty without having to go near the office--a simple phone call did the trick. No expense, either.

If you're just fat because you eat too much and don't move, the doc probably will deny you the note and refer you to a nutritionist.

The airlines are an issue unto themselves--if enough people don't want to fly them and take advantage of their extremely cheap fares in exchange for a crappy seat -- and yes, their seats are crappy, but the prices nowadays are WAY less in uncorrected-for-inflation dollars now than they were before deregulation. I remember paying four hundred bucks and then some to fly to the Caribbean in the seventies...that was a lot of money back then, but that was "what it cost" and you couldn't do better by shopping around. I actually paid cash for the ticket, at an airport, ahead of my travel day. I just went to San Juan a while ago--cost? Four hundred bucks. Same damn price as the seventies....and they aren't paying the FAs the same wages (they still are being paid in the dark, though), and fuel costs more....something's gotta give. What has given is the seat size. If you take up more than one seat, you need to pay for more than one seat. That's all there is to it.

This isn't about arrogance, it's about buying something that fits. Like I said, you don't buy size 2 underwear when you are size 22. Buy two seats if you can't fit into one, and do it before you arrive at the airport. Then you'll have no problems.

[uppityperson]

163. If you are that poor and fat, you'll be on medicare? WHAT? Are you serious?

Poor + fat = medicare. Oh my word.

[MADem]

170. Try RTFT--read the "full" thread. Drive by pontificators are not wanted nor needed.

There's context to my comment, which was in response to excuse-making and strawman circumstances.

But what IF the person was too poor? They'd be too poor to fly,most likely.

What if they needed a doctor's note and could not AFFORD the appointment? They wouldn't NEED an appointment.

Don't stick your beak in without enjoying the full flavor and context.

I didn't say Poor and Fat EQUALS medicare. But people who are very poor ARE on medicare or -caid, and if they needed a note BECAUSE they were fat, I articulated a way to get one without having to pay for an appointment.

But hey, making stuff up about what people say must be more fun, I guess. Is that why you did it?

[uppityperson]

175. You are something. Fail at trying to tell me I can or cannot comment. It is a forum

people jump in all over.

If the person was poor? Maybe someone gave them a ticket? It happens.

If they needed an appointment and couldn't afford one, they wouldn't need one? Poor logic.

You did say, and I quote:

If you're that poor and fat due to a medical condition, you don't need an appointment.

You will be on medicare.

So yes, you did say "if you are that poor and fat you will be on medicare". See the quote? I think you may be right though that "making stuff up about what people say must be more fun".

[MADem]

182. It's a forum that assumes people won't falsely characterize what people say.

Point to where I said Poor and fat EQUALS medicare.

I said THAT poor--not poor. But you came in at the middle of the conversation with some drive-by snark. Many poor people have health care at work.

Nice try--fail.

Like I said--RTFT.

Stop falsely characterizing my commentary.

[uppityperson]

185. I quoted it to you. Here, will quote again AND give you your link.

If you're that poor and fat due to a medical condition, you don't need an appointment.

You will be on medicare.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2161639&mesg_id=2164189

That was in response to this "You're assuming that everyone can AFFORD a doctor's appointment."


So, "You're assuming that everyone can AFFORD a doctor's appointment." You reply "If you're that poor and fat due to a medical condition you don't need an appointment. You will be on medicare."

Now you write "Many poor people have health care at work. " So, you seem to be saying that if you are "that" poor and fat, you either will be on medicare or have health care at work.

Back to my question, are you serious?

[MADem]

197. You can't read, apparently.

I did not say "poor" -- I said "that poor" which was contextual to the discussion I was having with someone other than you.

Are you looking that hard for a fight, really? Could your day have been that bad that you have to pretend to misunderstand so relentlessly just to be snarky and snide? Is it helping your mood to be that way?

That's not what I said, so stop trying to put words in my mouth. Try reading--for comprehension and context.

[uppityperson]

234. I am seeking clarification. You are the one looking for a fight.

Tah

[MADem]

244. Not at all. You have one of those nice days. nt

[uppityperson]

178. Please clarify what you mean, here, I'll give you the quote...

"an ADA fat person is a different set of circumstances than someone who is just fat because they don't exercise and/or eat too much. "

Are you saying anyone who falls under the ADA for size, is "fat", that they are not that way because "they don't exercise and/or eat too much"?

I don't think the American with Disabilities Act makes a difference as to why someone is obese. Or do you mean American Diabetes Association?

[MADem]

186. I'm talking about someone on steroids or with a preexisting medical condition.

I am indeed talking about disabled people.

Obesity is not a disability in and of itself--it is a condition that can be cured with diet and exercise in most cases.

However, if a person is obese because of medications they are taking, or metabolic imbalance unrelated to their conduct (overeating and not getting any exercise), or confinement due to an inability to exercise (stroke, paralysis, that kind of thing), their doctor knows this and can document it in a letter.

However, I doubt a doctor would write a note for someone who just needs to push away from the table and go for a walk after supper.

[JDPriestly]

109. If your weight is not a result of "conduct," and you have a doctor's opinion

saying that, then you might be entitled to call it a disability in which case, I don't know, but it is possible that you could have a right not to be discriminated against. I'm not sure of this, but it might be worth trying.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NutmegYankee]

154. It wasn't a bad analogy, as I wasn't making an analogy.

I was attacking the view that just because it's not against the law it's OK to do.

[MADem]

158. You offered a sense of equivalency, when there was none.

Don't mention 'em in the same breath if you don't want people to assume you are making an association.

[NutmegYankee]

164. Boy aren't we a bit touchy.

If you don't condone discrimination, my comment wasn't aimed at you. But having read the rest of your comments, I understand how you would take that personally. And you should.

[MADem]

165. I am not "touchy." I do, though, think that words matter. nt

[NutmegYankee]

169. Ever try the word empathy?

Or compassion? Your posts on this board have been lacking in both.

[MADem]

174. Oh please. Just STOP. What about empathy for the person that the fat person is SITTING on?

Look, I can feel sorry for someone, but still not want to subsidize their behavior. Actions do have consequences. Eat too much, don't exercise, get fat, and you will need to buy two seats.

Yes, it is sad that some people cannot control their eating to the point where they can't fit into a crappy airline seat.

But do not expect me to have to pay, in essence, for their conduct.

You whine about compassion and empathy--I challenge you to fly from NYC to Tokyo in economy, squeezed between a couple of sumos, and then tell me how "sorry" you feel for them upon landing--that is, if you can walk off the plane due to the tingling feeling and numbness you'll enjoy from the hips to the toes.

You'd be screaming that they need to buy themselves a spare seat before the first drink cart made it down the aisle.

Their rights end at the seat they purchased. If they purchase two, they've got more room to stretch out without bothering anyone else. Why is that such a difficult concept? Why would any sane person find it unfair?

[NutmegYankee]

176. Thanks for making my point.

Good night.

[MADem]

187. Good night indeed. Do practice your RTFT, now! nt

[treestar]

232. that's a judgment

who can really say what is "overweight?" Models may think they are, when they are skinny.

Are you talking about average?

[liberalpress]

213. I love your term "human Decency"

We haven't that on this planet for a long time. No profit in it. In fact beng nice loses money. Stockholders won't hear of it.

[eShirl]

7. It's a movie reference, so yes, athiests can say it.

:rofl:

[Ken Burch]

23. It's also a "WKRP In Cincinnati" reference

It was said by Mr. Carlson after the infamous "Turkey Drop" promotion

(.."As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly...")

[Blue_In_AK]

8. We flew from LA to Oakland on Southwest

and waited over an hour for our bags. I'm not sure if that's a function of Southwest or the Oakland Airport, but I've never waited so long. We had to pick up our bags and re-enter security to hop on Alaska...lucky we had enough time.

[Rabblevox]

20. That was probably Oakland, not Southwest, OAK is a really hideous terminal. /nt

[snooper2]

39. Is Okaland as bad as Ohare? That's on my #1 list of shitty, with STL right behind

Of course, since STL got hit by that tornado they are doing a major reno so who knows :)

[kiranon]

43. I like the Oakland terminal. Good parking, easy to access, clean

and comfortable and good signage for flight information.

[Ken Burch]

21. Weird that you had to re-check. I thought Southeast and Alaska were "partner airlines"

n/t.

[Blue_In_AK]

32. We have a different situation.

My husband's union flies us to Oakland and back every year for a physical at the MEBA clinic in Oakland. If we want to fly anywhere else while we're down there, we have to book it separately, which is what happened this year.

[Ken Burch]

46. Your husband is in MEBA? Does he work for AMHS?

If so, I may have worked with him.

respond by pm.

[HipChick]

9. I'm tired of being squashed in my seat..

Lets face it ..those seats were designed form an different era

[MADem]

34. Oddly enough, they were designed AFTER people started getting fat.

They are post-deregulation seats. I can remember flying on Eastern, Pan Am, Northwest Orient and other airlines pre-deregulation, and the coach seats were the size of the first class seats today.

It's only when the "Squeeze every dime out of every flight" mentality took hold that we started to see eighteen inch seats.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

12. I appreciate that Southwest respects the personal space of the rest of their customers

Perhaps I am hardened by having spent more than several flights getting to second base with other passengers oozing into my seat.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

14. for the price of 2 tickets, I fly first class and get a seat that is confortable.

[JDPriestly]

54. That's what obese people should do if the must, at all cost, fly Southwest.

I would like to mention that the seats on trains are far more comfortable than those on planes -- another reason we should build fast rail and close a few airports.

[MADem]

98. SOUTHWEST has first class? They never used to... nt

[JDPriestly]

191. I think you are right. I don't think they have first class either.

They are the economy airline.

[GodlessBiker]

15. We should pay by the pound. They weigh us as we board and our ticket price is ...

adjusted either up and down from the average weight ticket we purchased beforehand.

Yeah, I'm serious, like the boarding process isn't sufficiently a pain in the ass.

[MADem]

35. Hahahahaha!!!!!!!

Now that's pretty damned funny.

It would be just one more thing, after the jewelry/shoes/all your shit in the bins/x-ray/wand nonsense.

[snooper2]

40. That actually makes the most sense as more weight = more fuel

[Ken Burch]

19. God can still be your witness even if you don't believe in Her.

After all, She's there no matter what-and she has damn good eyesight(so to speak).

[Atman]

22. The National Association of Fat Acceptance? Really?

I'm a pretty tolerant guy...but fer chrissake...airplanes have been so downsized already, if you can't fit in the seat, buy yourself some extra room. It isn't YOU being inconvenienced, you're making things worse for the people sitting next to you. Sound insensitive? What if I want to fly naked or if I haven't showered in a month? I'm not saying being fat is the same, but there are certainly correlations. Me being skinny doesn't interfere with your space. You being fat and making it impossible for me to use my armrest and otherwise "enjoy" my already-limited space -- well, that's an issue. It's very similar to smoking. My NOT smoking doesn't impact you. Your smoking DOES impact me. Same basic issue here, as I see it.

[Ken Burch]

24. There have been flights where I sat next to people who DID smell like

they hadn't bathed in a month. The airlines never do anything about them.

[MADem]

37. I was on a British Air flight from London to Rome where they removed a

person of southwest Asian extraction for stinking.

The FA told the woman, quietly but firmly, that she needed to bathe, use deodorant and put on fresh clothing before being allowed to proceed. I only overheard it because I was close to the galley where the conversation took place.

The individual dashed off the plane (this was before Nahn Wun Wun, mind you) to the toilet by the gate area, did a fast wash, put on a fresh shirt and some stinky perfume, and was allowed back on, still not fresh as a daisy but much better.

[badtoworse]

42. I was on a flight from Miami to LaPaz, Bolivia once...

and someone's flatulance was so bad he / she stunk up the entire first class cabin. It was about a 7 hour flight and it went on almost the entire time. I thought I was going to throw up.

[MADem]

111. They should hand these out (with a BEANO chaser) onboard!!!

Skivvies w/carbon filters for flatulence!!!


http://www.myshreddies.com/flatulence-incontinence-underwear/

[tabasco]

223. Did you know who it was?

Or were the farts sneaky SBDs?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

26. I guess watching some overweight person being humiliated on the flight would ...

.... bother me more than having to sit crowded next to an overweight person.

But the world doesn't revolve around me (not since I was five maybe).

[MADem]

36. I will happily "accept" any fat person, so long as they are not sitting in my lap or on my seat.

I agree with everything you've said.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

68. Oh, wait...you know nothing about me.

My daughter in law is seriously overweight. Sweet girl. Totally love her. It has no impact on my thoughts about big people sitting next to me on an airplane. I'm an abusive bastard toward her? Not on your life. Nice try, though.

:hi:

.

[Ken Burch]

71. If you aren't being an anti-fat bigot to your daughter-in-law, that's a relief

It was understandable that a person would think you would be, based on your comments.

Still, you might consider that Southwest will subject HER to this act of public humiliation (and this form of extortion) if she flies with them. THAT should bother you. It should give you some feeling of common humanity towards those with weight problems...not all of which are caused by personal choices, you know.

And...did you read the part where it turned out that Southwest actually seated another passenger in the second seat they forced the woman in the OP to buy? And that they reserve the right to do that in all such cases? That proves that this isn't about passenger comfort at all, but just a shakedown based on weight. That should offend the hell out of you if you have ANY sense of justice.

[Atman]

76. Public humiliation?

Where is the public humiliation part? If you check in and you're obviously overweight, they ask you to buy another seat so as not to inconvenience the other paying passengers. No on is suggesting they be put on a public pillory and have tomatoes thrown at them.

.

[Ken Burch]

79. They do that while the other passengers are watching, they deny you entrance to the plane

or they make you march off the plane if you won't buy(or can't afford to buy) the second seat.

Everyone around them would see this and they'd all know why.

That's public humiliation.

And it isn't done to any OTHER Southwest passengers.

[Atman]

82. Come clean, Ken...what do you weigh?

Seriously...if this is an honest discussion, you should let us know where you're coming from. I sense a bit of an issue here.

[Ken Burch]

88. I am a larger person. I'd be saying this even if I wasn't, though.

This is about a basic issue of a decent society...the right to not be humiliated, to NOT be stripped of your dignity by anyone, for any reason(short, obviously, of actually committing a violent criminal act, or being a sex offender, or something like that).

You seem to have an issue too...an issue of a basic lack of compassion and empathy for your fellow human beings.

We ALL have things about ourselves that we've been shamed about...and it's never been appropriate for anyone to do that shaming.

That's why I object to this...and would even if I was a complete hardbody.

People with progressive values should always be anti-humiliation. Life as adults should never be like life on the school playground.

And if you dismiss what I have to say based on my size, there's something in your outlook that is reactionary in a deeper sense.

[Atman]

95. That is where you're completely wrong.

So you admit that you are a "larger person." So is my daughter in law. As such, I love her no less. It makes absolutely no difference to me. My son loves her and cares for her, and mom and me love her and care for her, too. But that has nothing to do with the space she would take up on airplane. Why do you have to conflate it into some sort of human rights issue? There is a certain amount of physical space available on an airplane seat. Period. There is no discussion about it...a 350 lb person takes up considerably more space than a 180 lb person does. It isn't magic, just the facts. Why don't you petition the airlines to set aside a certain number of seats that are wider to accommodate larger passengers, instead of bitching at me for not wanting my $350 seat to be shared with the 350 lb person next to me? Seriously. I know it sounds harsh, but Jesus H. Reality is still reality.

[Ken Burch]

103. My own size is irrelevant. You can't assume that all thinner people agree with YOU.

(also, I've mentioned my size in other discussions, so it's a cheap shot for you to imply that I deliberately hid it here. I'd feel the same way no matter what I weighed and you damn well know it). If I lose weight(and I'll probably try to do that at some point), my views on this WON'T change. You do not speak for everyone who ISN'T heavy.

The real issue is with the airline industry's decision to shrink seats...it's with what corporate power did...and you are letting them divert it to the individual attributes of other people...you're letting them turn you against others rather than unite with them to work for a just solution to all of this.

It's about corporate greed...not the personal choices of airline passengers.

Fight the REAL enemy.

[MADem]

123. +1 nt

[Missy Vixen]

268. Your daughter-in-law knows exactly what you think of her

And it's not "love". I look forward to the day when she finds the courage to confront you on your views. After all, she is a person, not a number on a scale.

The fat deal with people like you IRL all day long.

:eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

149. So, only people who are overweight should care about the feelings

and public humiliation of those who are overweight? Really? Well, I'm not overweight and I'm totally, thoroughly, completely disgusted by the hateful, nasty, cruel, ignorant, downright ridiculously idiotic bullshit being thrown around on this thread. Several times I've had to check to see whether I'm actually on DU and not FR.

Flying on any airline right now is a horrendously uncomfortable experience akin to undergoing a combination of a colonoscopy and an enema. I'm old enough to remember when they actually had seats that were designed for real human beings and not pygmies, as they are now. And I'm far more disgusted with attitudes such as yours and the other haters on here than I am by any fat person daring to sit next to me on a plane. And yes, I've had that happen. And guess what? I SURVIVED. Not only that, but I've sat next to non-fat people who were a helluva lot worse to be near. The only "issue" here is the attitude of the haters posting their shit. "Sex crime"? "Stealing"? REALLY? SERIOUSLY? Why don't all people who are ten or more pounds overweight just become hermits and stay home away from you "decent" people? Jesus. H. flipping Christ.

[MADem]

121. Sure it is--they kicked off two lesbians who were making out on the plane; they

booted off a guy showing asscrack with his "pants on the ground" look who belonged to some has-been band.

You don't like their policies; don't fly them. That solves your problem.

I suspect the Southwest passengers who don't want to get smooshed are pleased with the enforcement.

[Atman]

128. Okay, I'd actually pay extra to have lesbians kissing next to me...

COME ON PEOPLE! Just having a little fun here!

:hi:

.

[MADem]

130. I think they were good looking and famous, too!

You certainly wouldn't have felt squished in your seat, unless you had the middle and they had the aisle/window!!

It caused quite the brou-ha-ha, IIRC. There was some twittering and outrage. I guess they got it all sorted out eventually, though.

[Ken Burch]

134. The lesbians should not have been kicked off

the asscrack guy...well, that's actually a sanitation issue so that's different.

[MADem]

139. Turns out it wasn't the kissing, it was the swearing after the FA asked them to tone it down.

At the end of the day, though, it got sorted.

[Ken Burch]

141. Out of interest...do they kick everybody off the plane for swearing?

Given what the modern airport experience is like, they'd have to kick off entire planeloads if they're gonna make an issue out of that.

[MADem]

147. You'll have to ask them, I suppose. I only know what I read in the paper and on Twitter.

The FAs and flight crew have a significant amount of latitude when it comes to maintaining order on their passenger deck. If the captain doesn't like the cut of your jib, he can toss you off for any reason, or none at all.

I am not intimately familiar with the circumstances of that particular issue--I believe there were children about, and the FA asked them to chill out, and they replied with profanity and the FA (do not know if the FA was male or female, even) pulled the string and booted 'em.

[ScreamingMeemie]

279. Now, if they would handle the real problem. The assholes that think

they can put their shit all over your space. I'm sorry but the "entitled masses of asses" that fly are far more upsetting to me than an overweight seatmate.

[Missy Vixen]

70. And this would be a problem for you why?

NAAFA's been around for awhile now. Why shouldn't fat people accept themselves for who they are, especially those who are fat because of metabolic issues beyond their control? Oh. I see. Those people should hate themselves, too. After all, they didn't win the genetic lottery.

I spent the entire flight home from JFK to Seattle in July (in first class) being jabbed repeatedly in the ribs by a height-weight proportionate guy throwing elbows in his sleep. He must have been having nightmares. There was no place for me to move, or I would have.

>Same basic issue here, as I see it.<

Maybe I'd like to sit next to someone who doesn't insist on using his iPad after being asked repeatedly to turn it off due to takeoff, or someone that's a bigot. Who should I complain to?

The outrage is palpable. After all, even if I (or another fat person) bought that second seat, there are people who would bitch because I dared to be out of the house in the first place.

[Ken Burch]

83. Indeed. It's as if, because they can't get away at being publicly bigoted towards other groups

they go after people who are heavier just because they have to attack SOMEBODY. Their whole being is tied up in thinking they are above other people.

Conclusion:

As some people are addicted to substances, or to gambling, some people may be addicted to prejudice.

Sick thought, but reading some of the incredibly hateful responses in this thread, it's hard to think it's about anything else.

[Atman]

101. I can sit on a plane next to a gambler and he won't take up my part of the seat I paid for.

Is that too hard to understand?

[MADem]

135. Just because people don't agree with you, that does not make their responses "hateful."

Unless you have a medical condition that limits your mobility or interferes with your metabolism, you have the power to change your physical appearance. If you are overweight, and stay overweight, to the point where you can't fit into an airline seat, you probably need to have a chat with the man in the mirror and start working on a course correction before you become seriously ill or die as a consquence of that much extra weight. The 'humiliation' of being reminded that you are too fat to fit into the seat by a gate agent could have been avoided by simply buying two seats when you first booked, instead of trying to get away with something and being called on it.

That's not "hateful," that's just plainspoken advice based on reality.

[Atman]

85. Bullshit

Total 100% bullshit

[Missy Vixen]

91. Ahh. A cryptic response.

Why don't you tell me exactly what you are calling "bullshit"? I can't wait to read it.

BTW, exactly how does NAAFA affect you, besides the fact you believe they shouldn't exist? And, no, I'm not a member.

[Atman]

105. I can sit on a plane next to a gambler and he won't take up my part of the seat I paid for.

Is that too hard to understand?

[Missy Vixen]

119. Actually, it is

I have no idea what you mean. You might try reinterpreting in English. Plus, you never answered my question about why you believe NAAFA should not exist.

Does your daughter-in-law know how little you think of anyone that isn't "normal" weight?

[Atman]

131. Sorry, I didn't know you asked why NAAFA shouldn't exist.

I don't think it shouldn't exist. And my daughter in law knows her weight is an issue. Where did I say I think little of larger people? Get a grip...NOT AT ALL what I said. There is a simple fact, if you are very large, you take up more space. Do you deny this? Is there a post I've made on this thread that says anything more than that? I Ford F-150 takes up more space than a Ford Escort. Is that difficult to understand? Given the reality of size, why should I pay $350 for an airplane seat and have to share it with the very large person next to me? I just don't see why this is a difficult concept to understand.

.

[anamandujano]

25. The problem can be easily solved by airlines

taking out some seats and making one large seat, maybe a half dozen in each jet, evenly spaced throughout the cabin. I'm not sure but I don't think the seats are filled on every flight.

This would be minor in cost and save tons in PR and lawyers. When buying a ticket, the customer should mention they need one of the large seats and of course the policy should not be abused.

I sympathize with both sides.

I used to complain about not being able to afford vacations. After reading about what passengers are subjected to, scanning and groping etc, I've stopped complaining. I'm a happyish non-flying stuck-in-my-town person.

[MADem]

151. Either that, or put in benches and sell 'em by the inch!

While they're taking those nekkid xrays, they can measure your ass and charge you accordingly!

[Lance_Boyle]

282. The airlines *do* have larger seats. They are in first class, and they cost more.

Why should an obese person needing 2 seats, or a larger seat than non-obese people, get that larger seat at the same price a non-obese person pays for the smaller seat? This is really painfully simple. You pay for the space you occupy.

[mikeytherat]

27. I don't know if I qualify as a "fatso" or "lardass" or whatever offensive, shit term is being used,

but I am 6'3" and 220 pounds, and I f**king hate airline seats. Squished and no legroom.

mikey_the_rat

[snooper2]

41. I'm 5'11" and 195lbs and I fit fine in the seats

As long as their isn't a huge arm hogging the whole damn armrest between us

[JDPriestly]

56. I'm around 5' and a little over 130 lbs, and the airline seats are too small, too

confining for me. And having to sit next to an extremely obese person spreading their body from their seat into mine is really offensive. I'm not the smallest person but I'm smaller than average, so I am very sympathetic to Southwest's policy. People who are very large might prefer traveling by train. It is so much more comfortable.

[Missy Vixen]

73. Oh, of course it is

I'll be there in 24 hours, and you'll be there in two. I might also mention that a train ticket is as expensive as an airline flight. I checked.

:eyes:

[JDPriestly]

108. But oh, so much more comfortable.

The trains we have now are too slow for very long distances, but fast tail could change that. Remember that you have to get to the airport (a long drive from our house in LA), get there early and then go through bothersome security. When you arrive at your destination by plane, you still have a wait -- as your luggage is processed and finally arrives on the luggage wheel.

So, a fast train could actually turn out to take about the same amount of time from say Union Station in downtown LA to San Francisco than the entire process of flying to San Francisco.

And, on longer flights, you have to think of lay-over pauses which can extend your flight quite a bit.

We need fast rail. Even China has it. We are way behind.

If you are going a short distance and are obese, you should take the train. In some cars and at certain times of day, you can have a seat all to yourself. Now that is comfort.

[Missy Vixen]

124. Gosh, thanks for the advice

>If you are going a short distance and are obese, you should take the train. In some cars and at certain times of day, you can have a seat all to yourself. Now that is comfort.<

I'll be flying from Seattle to Los Angeles in July. And no, I'm not inclined to sit on a train for 24 hours each way because you don't think fat people should be allowed on a plane.

:eyes:

[JDPriestly]

190. You may not be as fat as you think.

Also, there are other ways to fly than Southwest even though it is the cheapest and my favorite airline.

[MH1]

285. On the Bos-Wash corridor, Acela is far preferable to flying

Too bad most of the country doesn't have anything like it.

[Darth_Kitten]

104. Me, too.

Yes, the space is still pretty tight. :)

[Honeycombe8]

177. I'm larger than you and fit fine in airplane seats. I'm 5'4 1/2", 140 lbs, size 10....

size 10 in pricier clothes, size 12 in inexpensive clothes or less expensive jeans.

I have always fit comfortably in airline seats, including those little commuter planes (you know the ones...the ones with 7 passenger seats, and you could touch the pilot if you wanted to).

Sometimes it's the way you're built. If someone is hippy, you may have more of a problem.

I've sat next to large people in airplanes before. It is pretty intrusive and uncomfortable because the person spills over into your space, inevitably. Even if he's squashed between the armrests, he'll have to use both armrests because his arms can't rest comfortably on his lap.

[MH1]

286. I'm significantly, er, wider than that at the same height, and I do fine in Southwest's seats

and I see plenty of people bigger than me who also seem to be fine. (It does help to develop a technique for asserting your spatial rights, i.e. getting your half of the armrest.)

A person has to be pretty darn big to have a problem fitting in those seats, and at that point (possibly excluding large athletes), fitting in an airline seat is NOT their biggest problem they ought to be thinking about. It sucks but so do my problems (and I do have one or two).

[blueamy66]

226. Really?

I'm 5'11 and 130 lbs.....don't have any problems.....

[Ken Burch]

64. It's amazing how much "body fascism" is bubbling up in this thread, isn't it?

Too many people think that a happenstance of metabolism makes them part of a goddamn superior race or something.

[idiotgardener]

157. Honestly, your posts here make it seem like you think the opposite.

That obese people are a superior race who should be accommodated no matter what that means to anyone else.

I absolutely agree with you that no one should be humiliated, and knowing SWA I suspect they try to handle these situations as delicately as possible. Their policy is part of the contract of carriage one agrees to when buying a ticket, so if a passenger shows up at the airport without having complied with the contract, this situation is the result and I'm sure it's not pleasant for SWA employees either.

It probably would be a good idea for airlines to create a few spaces for larger people on each plane, even though realistically that will probably mean that all the other passengers on the plane will be subsidizing the larger people's tickets. Airlines are STRUGGLING these days and SWA tries really hard to keep fares low and is one of the only ones that doesn't now charge a fee for everything. Removing one seat from every single row is simply not an option.

[Ken Burch]

160. No, I'm not a reverse body fascist

I'm saying the issue is the choices that the airline industry made to squeeze more people onto the same size planes, not the size of the people themselves. In putting this on the individual passengers, some are letting the airlines deflect the anger that should go THEIR way onto other passengers...and if we let ourselves do that, in addition to degrading ourselves by agreeing that we should let others be degraded, the result is pointless enmity towards our fellow human beings that does nothing to solve the real problem.

[idiotgardener]

173. OK, I think that's your best explanation of your position.

I don't know when seats got this small or exactly how long airlines have been struggling (since 9/11?) but I know making them significantly bigger right now is not an option.

I agree with a lot of what you said in the last post, but still, with things as they are, I don't think it's fair for a person not to be able to use their whole seat. When that happens, it's still inconveniencing individual passengers.

[MADem]

181. They started to shrink after deregulation.

That's when flight attendant crews shrunk too, to "FAA minimums" in order to save money.

Seats got smaller/lighter. Meals went away as much as possible to minimize weight and work. Goodbye metal, hello plastic. Goodbye plastic, hello, plasticized paper sacks. ANYTHING to lighten the load and save fuel costs.

Back in the old days, as I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, you could fly to the Carribean for four hundred bucks in a coach seat the size of a first class seat. Half the time the flight wasn't full and you could stretch out and sleep.

Nowadays, the flights are stuffed to the rafters, they are an endurance contest, and nearly forty years later than that regulated flight, it STILL costs around four hundred bucks to fly to the Carribean, if you look around. Something had to give.

I sometimes wonder if they'll start doing "standing room only" flights! Ryanair was said to be planning it, don't know if they followed through:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7864921/Ryanair-to-sell-5-tickets-for-standing-room-only-flights.html

[idiotgardener]

194. I know Japan was considering standing room only too...

I'd be willing to try it for a relatively short flight.

And yeah, the other day I was thinking about how it seems like flights to Europe have been $600-$800 for 20 years (if you find a good deal), but I haven't looked in a couple years and my last coast-to-coast flight cost $600 when I was expecting $400.

[etherealtruth]

89. You are a liitle bit overweight (unless you are crazily muscular)

I am sure your discomfort has more to do with the lack of legroom

[Atman]

118. Try flying to Asia.

15-18 hours in a shitty little economy seat. After the first few hours over the north pole, it's -70 degrees outside and the temp inside the plane drops to the low sixties...and you're still on one of those crappy little seats with no leg room. Any you want to be sitting next to a 350 lb person taking up half your seat? Really?

.

[Ron Green]

30. F*** Southwest. They (or Herb Kelleher) have always lobbied against

development of passenger rail. It's easy enough to understand, but it's not good for the country

[mnhtnbb]

38. I cringe on flights when I see BIG people coming down the aisle.

I always book an aisle seat--if I don't have enough miles to upgrade to business class--
and I've been driven NUTS by big guys squeezed into middle seats constantly poking
me and pushing me out of my seat.

With people being taller--and heavier--it's a problem in this country. The airlines
want to squeeze as many people in to the cattle car that they can. What are you gonna' do?
Create a Big and Tall class and make anyone taller or heavier than a cutoff buy a ticket
in that section?

[Matariki]

49. " specific rules for customers who cannot fit between the armrests of their seats"

I'm 5'3" @ 115 pounds and I can barely fit between the armrests of those fucking tiny uncomfortable seats.

[Bladian]

50. I think I'd rather have that than people with giant bags.

Seriously. The women who walk down the aisle when they're boarding and I'm already sitting down and let their huge purses hit me in the shoulder or worse, the face. It drives me up the wall.

[Atman]

136. Whew...I thought this was another 100 lb scrotum post.

:whew:

[JDPriestly]

52. I love Southwest Airlines.

I am short, and my weight is moderate. I have frequently been squeezed by an obese person in the next seat on flights. That's OK for short flights, but on flights that last more than, say an hour and a half, it means misery for me.

I support Southwest Airlines' size rule.

We can't take on more baggage than the ticket rules allow. Why should a few people be able to take excessive weight in some other form without paying for it?

Sounds cruel, but Southwest Airlines is usually the least expensive of the airlines that fly the routes I want. This policy is partly about the comfort of other passengers on the plane and partly about the cost of the fuel.

Obese passengers also affect the safety of other passengers. It would take and extremely obese person much longer to move from his or her seat in case of an emergency than it would me even though I am older.

That could mean disaster for other people.

People who don't fit Southwest's weight or size rules have lots of choices for seating with other airlines.

[Ken Burch]

65. Did you read the part where they said that, after this woman BOUGHT the extra seat

Southwest seated ANOTHER passenger in the seat she had bought? And that they reserve the right to do that in ALL such cases?

That PROVES that Southwest isn't doing this for any reason other than greed. They aren't defending "passenger comfort" at all.

And you've outed yourself as a body fascist...which is shameful.

There's no way people of size have ever done anything to deserve this much contempt and disdain from you.

[JDPriestly]

193. And there is no way that people of my size deserve to have a world

that never fits either. When I fly, my complaint is that my feet don't touch the floor. That may not sound so bad except that it causes me to have back problems when I fly.

[Ken Burch]

238. OK, I'm with you on the problem with seat height, as far as that goes

And a lot more people probably would be had you not focused on attacking the people with weight issues rather than fighting the real enemy: the airline types who deliberately designed seats that were too small and too close together for almost EVERYBODY.

[JDPriestly]

248. I really don't understand why people are offended.

No one is barred from air travel. There are lots of other airlines, and my point is that no airline accommodates everyone's size problems. I think it is quite fair to charge a little extra for the truly obese. A lot of people who think they might qualify as obese by Southwest's standards probably would not. I have seen lots of very overweight people on Southwest airlines, and judging from their actions, there really is no problem.

The seats need to be more adjustable. When I ride the train, there is a ledge on the back of the seat in front of me which I can push down and which will then support my feet. I don't think it would be possible to do widen the seats in any way.

The real problem is that airlines are pressed to provide cheap fares to the point that they have cut every corner imaginable, even on employee pay (with the exception of course of their top executives). Remember back when we used to actually get meals on plane flights. So thanks to the money squeeze, they are now getting six seats to a row on some planes that really should have only five.

We all fly more cheaply that the economic reality would probably permit mostly because we do squeeze ourselves into the uncomfortable, narrow seats. That is why I think it is fair to charge more for really extremely obese people. The very low fares are based on the assumption that the passengers will only weigh so much and will be able to sit in a single seat without infringing too much on the comfort of the people in the neighboring seats. It doesn't seem mean to me at all. It is simply the result of an economic reality. The very extremely obese are taking up more space than they paid for. Nothing mean about it.

If you order a la carte and request a double portion, you will probably be required to pay twice the price. That is not unreasonable. Nor is it unreasonable to expect a person who takes twice the room on a plane to pay twice. I stick by my reasoning. And I remind everyone that most airlines charge more but don't have this rule. They probably calculate a higher average weight per passenger.

[NobodyInParticular]

249. Size and weight again and again impose burdens and give privileges

Very short people won't stand a chance playing professional basketball. Only very, very light people will get work as race-horse jockeys. Extra tall people won't fit into the cockpits of fighter planes. Men and women with the toned physiques of trapeze artists will never make it as sumo wrestlers. Chances are that a midget will never get employment as a night club bouncer, while a guy or lady weighing 350 pounds or more will be opened with open arms.

Very large people will generally not benefit as much from food stamps because they eat more. Very large people who don't fit into mass produced clothing sizes end up paying more because their clothes demand more cloth.

So the point is we have benefits or liabilities in accordance with whatever our physical make-up is. Southwest Airlines is totally reasonable when it asks more from those who demand more space. Of course, the only way to ascertain whether or not Southwest is truly fair is to find out if Southwest charges half price for each of two midgets small enough to fit into one seat...

[MADem]

267. They won't do that, because there's only one seat belt per seat.

Each passenger has to have their own and it would be impossible to modify a seat to accomodate two belts.

They could probably make a point for getting the children's rate, though, if they pushed it. They might even succeed, if they didn't weigh too much. Sometimes people who are short are also pretty wide and muscular.

[Township75]

208. What happened here on DU? When Chris Christie was a potential candidate, his weight was a joke...

and we all held hands in a circle insulting him for it....trying to humiliate him for it.

Now some people here think they were put on this earth to be the vanguards of the obese. For shame!

[Ken Burch]

237. Fine...Christie SHOULDN'T have been bashed for his weight.

Not all of us joined in on that, y'know.

[Missy Vixen]

74. And the truth comes out

>Obese passengers also affect the safety of other passengers. It would take and extremely obese person much longer to move from his or her seat in case of an emergency than it would me even though I am older.<

Oh, I see. You won the genetic lottery, so you should be able to fly. I should squeeze myself into any other form of transportation I can find. After all, I might impact YOUR safety.

:eyes:

>People who don't fit Southwest's weight or size rules have lots of choices for seating with other airlines.<

Really? Why don't you name those airlines?

:crickets:

[Atman]

75. Ever flown a tiny puddle-jumper?

I also love Southwest. I always try to fly them first. But I have been on flights on other airlines where they literally come into the cabin and ask the fat people to move to other parts of the plane to better distribute the weight. I am not making this up. So SW wants overweight people to buy another seat so as not to inconvenience their other paying customers, and I'm supposed to be upset why?

.

[Chellee]

92. It sounds cruel, because it is cruel.

"People who don't fit Southwest's weight or size rules have lots of choices for seating with other airlines."

Separate, but equal? Really? That's the argument you want to make? Wow. Ok.

[Atman]

99. NO! NO, NO NO NO!

How dare you equate this with race.

A 180 lb black man or woman takes up no more space than a 180 lb person of any other race. There is simply no comparison. Cheap shot, no valid relationship to the issue we're talking about.

[Chellee]

112. Fat people need to be on another airline.

That's what she says.

Somewhere else. Somewhere away from her.

And it's not about the size, or the safety, or the comfort. It's about the public humiliation. You seem to keep missing that.

edit: grammar

[Atman]

115. I'm not missing that at all.

I don't agree with the "public humiliation." It shouldn't happen, it shouldn't be a part of the airline's policy. If there is an issue with the passenger's weight, it should be discussed with the passenger privately. If they are in the check-in line and obviously overweight, there should be an appropriate way to bring them aside and reach a resolution. I am not at all in favor or calling out a person while they're in line with a hundred other people. Read through my posts...I never said that. What I'm saying is that it is not a human rights issue, as so many here want to conflate it into. It is a matter of the physical space, and the people who paid dearly for an already crappy, too-small seat. "Normal" may be a term we democrats hate, but the fact is -- the FACT -- there is a "normal" size to human bodies. If I pay $350 for a plane ticket, I see nothing wrong with expecting that i occupy it by myself, not share it with the person next to me. Call me crazy.

.

[Divine Discontent]

143. "man or woman takes up no more space than a 180 lb person of any other race"

I beg to differ. I am constantly told I don't look anything more than 180-90 pounds, and some even say 170 (I'm 40 more than that). I am a man. Several women I know and their weight and height are surprisingly large in the seating area, and cannot fit where I can when we go to restaurants, and their weight is similar. They are shorter, so, it's obvious that people take up more space in seats based on their gender, cultural background, and waist size. My excess weight is in my belly and I'm stocky like a lot of typical Midwestern guys, whereas a lot of women I see are larger in the hips and thighs, and they will encroach other seats, and have, where I have been seated next to them, yet their weight is no different than mine, so your yelling in all caps and saying their comment is a cheap shot may need some consideration. My best friend is twice my size and has been over 400 pounds, and doesn't look twice my size, but he definitely is larger in his waist area by over 20 inches, so the fact is, yes, they may have to ask extremely obese people to purchase two seats when they're quite obviously larger than normal, but the hatred directed towards them in some of these posts, and in general is not very mature.

[MrSlayer]

55. I always fly Southwest. Bags fly free.

I've had only positive experiences with them. Airfare is low and I had free booze all the way home from Florida last month.

[Atman]

137. My mother in law will be thrilled!

:hi:

[Atman]

77. Why is this thread still open?

Any time I've used the word "fat" in a post, it is locked within five minutes.

.

[lost-in-nj]

106. as it should be....

on edit: I mean it should be locked.....

until or unless you know why someone is overweight you really have no right to complain....
ie: look at someone on cortisone for a chronic condition.... and a myriad of other reasons

lost

[Atman]

78. self delete - dupe

.

[lost-in-nj]

100. let's turn this around and see how the "other" half feels

maybe..... just maybe if you don't want some one (whether or not they are overweight ) to sit next to you well then YOU buy the extra ticket (you can always say your overweight and get the discount)...... some people just do not get it.... so much for being liberal and understanding.....
no I am not overweight and if some one can't afford a first class ticket or 2 seats well it's not my place to judge..... as long as you leave me alone to read I don't care who you are


:facepalm:


lost

[Ken Burch]

117. Thanks for bringing a little humanity to this, lost.

:thumbsup:

[uppityperson]

166. I just posted that upthread before reading it here. If you want extra room, pay for it yourself

Yes, I've been squished into a corner by a very large person sitting next to me. I dealt with it, he was a very nice guy, flying home from a conference on a low income nutritional thing. I've paid extra to be seated in bulkhead seats to have the extra room.

rather than bitching about someone, rather than risking not having room, if you are going to put up with airlines shrinking all the seat sizes and adding more seats, pay more for a larger seat or buy 2.

[McCamy Taylor]

102. Continental had a pilot who wanted to "fly low" to avoid ice when the de-icers on the plane broke.

Luckily, the control tower would not let him take off so we got a new flight and a new pilot. I have never flown Continental since, even though they sent me a voucher. Who wants a "free" flight on an airline where the pilots are crazy?

[Atman]

125. They should kick off poor spellers, too.

Totally kidding. I just couldn't resist.

[Divine Discontent]

133. hehe... you're too too much!

Get it here now, or one of a million other designs! http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486eping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486

[Goblinmonger]

172. That's not a spelling error, it's a grammar error.

Couldn't resist.

[Atman]

183. They should kick off poor repliers.

The "poor spellers" remark was about the use of to instead of too. But I was a dumbass and replied to the wrong post! LOL.

[Mimosa]

144. Customers should fit within "17-inch-wide seats"

Yikes, I'm not fat. But 17 inches is the width of my Mac Probook.

It would be torture to try to sit in such a small seat for an hour or more.

[Atman]

153. LOL!

Don't even know what a Mac Probook is, but I don't think I want to be sitting next to one.

.

[Major Nikon]

189. It's just like a PC laptop, only much more expensive

[Major Nikon]

167. That's the width of the chairs in my dining room

They are a little wider in the front, but 17" in the rear. They look to be pretty much standard dining room chairs.

Even if the seats were 20" wide, it would still suck to be in one for an extended flight.

[blueamy66]

228. then don't open it up on an airline flight

the world does not revolve around you

buy a book

[madinmaryland]

150. Un-recced. I've never had a problem with them. The airlines that I have flown besides Southwest

have been been much less than stellar.

[madinmaryland]

152. Nice drive-by post trumad. Or is that you, cboy?

[trumad]

155. No Mad....

Its golf day.... I do have a life.

[madinmaryland]

161. Actually, I spent the afternoon on a Southwest flight from San Antone.

Completely full flight. No charge for my suitcase or carry ons, either. Some of actually work, and are not out playing repubican games.

[trumad]

200. Sorry about your work.

Beautiful day for Golf.

[madinmaryland]

211. No problem. I am happy to have a full-time job.

Pays the bills so that I can sit here on the internets and make comments in the Sports Forum!!

[Taverner]

159. They used to be egalitarian. When they went to numbered boarding priority...

They jumped the shark

[idiotgardener]

180. Oh please.

The numbers are given out first-come, first-served and as long as every single person thinks they need to be on the plane first and stands next to the door way before the plane starts loading, it's a system that makes everything go more smoothly.

[Taverner]

188. There was a time when first come first serve was the case

But today, if you have "status" with the airline...

You get in the "1-25" group

[idiotgardener]

196. On my last flight

they pre-boarded people with disabilities, people with children, children traveling alone, platinum club members, gold club members, silver club members, anyone "needing extra time", soldiers and the elderly. By the time "regular" boarding started, there were only about 10 of us left.

I think they should board from the back of the plane to the front, maybe making exceptions for people with disabilities if they need it and that's it.

[MADem]

199. Last time I flew them, they had groups--A B C. If you checked in early,

you were in group A. If you checked in on time, you were in B. If you were a last-minute gate-dasher, you were in C. They called 'em in that order.

[trumad]

201. They still have the same stupid shit.

Although you can pay an upcharge to fly in A.

[MADem]

216. I always just checked in real early. nt

[trumad]

255. God forbid if you're running late.

Middle seat.

[MADem]

265. That has happened to me a time or two, but not on SW.

Ghastly.

[trumad]

202. It's a stupid system...

[saras]

168. God is everyone's witness equally, regardless of the degree of God's existence.

The Devil, on the other hand, only comes for those who believe in Him. And He's hardest on those who believe that obedience is the way to avoid Him.

[cherokeeprogressive]

179. Do Atheists have vocal chords capable of making such sounds?

If yes, then yes.

[Lyric]

203. Threads like this always leave me in tears.

It's hard to read how much people absofuckinglutely LOATHE people like me. It's like being tossed right back into the torture chamber of my childhood. And it's so much worse when I see those kinds of posts from people that I otherwise really LIKE here at DU. People I consider allies, if not friends.

When I was 15, I tried to kill myself and wound up hospitalized for a month in Virginia. It was partly because I'd recently lost my Dad to a horrible murder and partly because I was socially isolated and horribly depressed. But by FAR, the largest contributing factor to that social isolation and depression was the viciousness that I'd been subjected to all of my life because I was a "fat girl". After so many years of constant abuse and cruelty, of being blamed for my own condition and told that I was a greedy, worthless piece of human garbage, I wound up believing it.

To the people here making vicious comments about fat people: I suppose it's easy to be cruel anonymously on the internet. Maybe if you were facing the 15-year-old girl on life support that I was, a girl tried to end her life because she couldn't live with the pain and abuse anymore, you might realize that your mindset is no different than the fundie fucks who torture gay kids into suicide. And I say that AS a fat gay person.

I've experienced abuse for both of those things, and there is absolutely no difference in the level of pain and despair that it causes in the person you're abusing.

[demmiblue]

210. I was going to stay out of this plane wreck of a thread...

but I just want to thank you for sharing your perspective.

I am sorry for your pain.

:hug:

[Ken Burch]

212. Some people are addicted to hatred

They can't get away with openly expressing it to a lot of other folks now(towards a few groups, especially LGBT people in some regions, they can), but its still ok to openly, publicly, (and generally without fear of anyone calling them on it) lash out at, shame, humiliate and torment people with weignt issues.

It's as if the people who do that can't get through their day if they can't make others feel miserable.

And you're not alone in your pain, my friend.

A lot of people have gone through what you went through...and still do.

The best response is to stand together and call out those who inflict the wounds.

And even if we accept that it may be healthier for people to be lighter than they are, it is clear that attacking people for their weight is a completely ineffective way to get those people to deal with the situation. It's just not as simple as "you could all be thin if you just tried". The way the human body works(going into crisis mode to subconsciously make people regain the weight they've lost because the body interprets the change in weight as a crisis) keeps it from being that simple. So does heredity. So do variances in the metabolic system. So do many, many other things.

No one should be shamed for their weight...and, in general, no one should be shamed at all, unless they've done horrific harm to other people in some way.

I hope you can find healing and self-acceptance. You've earned the right to both, after what people have put you through.

[MADem]

220. If someone is making "vicious" comments, you should alert on them.

However, the whole issue of "space on a plane" IS a very real one, and it is not "abuse" to mention it. If you fly frequently, it can be a tremendous issue that has a very negative impact on a regular basis, if the airlines don't identify the people who will cause discomfort to others.

The airlines are not going to make the seats bigger unless/until they can do it and STILL MAKE MONEY. JET BLUE has a couple of "extra leg room" rows in coach, that you can pay extra for, but it's Business Class or First if you're bigger than average on most airlines, and two seats on Southwest. That's just fact.

People who need more room need to purchase more room, and they'd be well-advised to do it when they book their ticket. They shouldn't expect to be subsidized, and they shouldn't get angry when people who have bought a tiny little chunk of aircraft "real estate" don't look kindly on their purchase being overrun by their neighbor.

It's simple courtesy. Pay for what you use. Would you stand cheerfully by if your next door neighbor was an energy hog, using up zillions of kilowatts of electricity, thousands of gallons of water, and barrels of heating oil, yet you both received the exact same heat/light/water bills? It's a question of simple fairness.

If you need more, buy more. Don't inconvenience others and cause them to be miserable. That's all most people here are saying.

[Missy Vixen]

236. Lyric, they're not worth your tears

They're not even worth a second thought.

You are not defined by a number on a scale. You are loved and love others. Your life is important.

Those who spew bigotry and hate while hiding behind a computer keyboard are desperately unhappy people, who bring nothing but grief to the lives of others as well.

:hug:
:hug:
:hug:

-MV

[lost-in-nj]

241. Lyric....

:hug:



lost

[Amaril]

254. Sending you a loving hug

I know your pain, and I'm sorry you had to endure it.

:hug:

[AmandaMae]

214. What is it about certain topics? Pit bulls, fat people on airplanes, children in restaurants....

The same melodrama rehashed over and over again. The hatred in some of these comments makes me sad.

[MADem]

222. You forgot smokers. NT

[naaman fletcher]

215. This is not a problem in europe...

I am in italy right now, I fly all around europe, and never worry about who will sit next to me. In the US, theres a 50% chance that whoever is next to me will be squishing me.

Call me an asshole, but I have no use for the disgusting fat culture in the US. stop stuffing your faces and drinking a 12 pack of soda every day and you wont have this problem.

[blueamy66]

229. bwahahahahaha!

:-)

[Codeine]

233. +1 nt

[Missy Vixen]

235. I have no use for someone proud of his bigotry

>Call me an asshole, but I have no use for the disgusting fat culture in the US.<

I'd like to call you a lot worse, but I'll be deleted.

Suffice it to say that I wonder why you are on a board called DEMOCRATIC Underground if you have such disdain and hatred for other human beings.

[Ken Burch]

239. OK...I'll call you an asshole...

Anything ELSE I can do for you today?

[lost-in-nj]

240. ok.... your an asshole... you said.....

on my first flight to Italy I sat next to an Italian who was the rudest person I ever met... EVER... now not all Italians are rude as not all Americans are overweight... I would have taken an over weight "anyone" over this rude and insolent man any day.... may be you would be better off talking to the person next to you and finding out about them instead of judging them..... you might be suprised.... oh and if you don't like it here..... keep out! or BUY FIRST CLASS OR 2 TICKETS!!!!! if you can't afford them what makes you think anyone else can?

sometimes being overweight has more to do than drinking a 12 pack of soda...... the same as being a rude European has more to do than ..... well... being a European!


rude can be fixed...... overweight, not so much and not so easy all the time.... yeah do some research

I really can not believe the hate in this thread.....

this is why I'm not here anymore (and others).... the holier than thou attitudes (not just only here but all over this site)is down right disgusting........

lost

[MADem]

245. Hate to tell ya this, pal, but Germany has more than their share of big folk.

You must not be flying Lufthansa.

And this book might reduce your smugness factor, as well: http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calctitle=1&pageSubject=416&title_id=9667&edition_id=12045

[Scout]

275. ok, you asked for it. you're an asshole.*

*mods, please note, poster asked for this :-)

gee, i'm fat, and i have NEVER stuffed my face and NEVER drank even a 12 pack of soda in a week, much less every day.

you have revealed not only your bigotry, but your astounding ignorance.

have a nice day!

[Rex]

227. I thought it was 'as God is my witness'.

But what would an Agnostic know?

[MADem]

246. Give the king the prize! You are correct!

Here it is in context, after all the sobbing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBAmLm_jYyY

[Name removed]

253. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crikkett]

278. I blame deregulation.

Airlines shouldn't be allowed to pack people the way they do.

[ScreamingMeemie]

280. I find more annoyance with those who think it's okay to push the limits

of carry on luggage than with those who are overweight sitting next to me. I will not take Southwest seriously until they start enforcing their carry on rules.

[AngryAmish]

284. I am glad I missed this shitstorm